JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The One and Only Mo on August 04, 2009, 02:23:53 AM
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So one of my best friends is dating a non-jewish girl. I met her, she's really nice and I'm happy he's happy. I'm orthodox and he's far removed from frumkeit. I tried months ago to rebuke him and tell him to not date her but to no avail. So it's been a few months and he recently told me they are sexually active. I pretended to be happy and supportive but deep down I was distraught. Nothing I say can make him dump her so I'm not going to bother again. But maybe I should. I'm so lost here. Any advice? Keep in mind this is one of my BEST friends and I love him like a brother and the last thing I want is to lose him especially if he'll continue doing her anyways.
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I'm sorry to say, but he's an immoral self-hater.
I know that's hard to take with him being one of your close friends, but that's what he is. You can try to tell him to repent, perhaps threatening him with the specter of hell, but beyond that, there's not much you can do except lift him up in prayer.
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He's not frum because he wasn't brought up that way. He was never educated properly about the importance of dating jews. It's not his fault.
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So one of my best friends is dating a non-jewish girl. I met her, she's really nice and I'm happy he's happy. I'm orthodox and he's far removed from frumkeit. I tried months ago to rebuke him and tell him to not date her but to no avail. So it's been a few months and he recently told me they are sexually active. I pretended to be happy and supportive but deep down I was distraught. Nothing I say can make him dump her so I'm not going to bother again. But maybe I should. I'm so lost here. Any advice? Keep in mind this is one of my BEST friends and I love him like a brother and the last thing I want is to lose him especially if he'll continue doing her anyways.
Shalom Mo2388,
It is sad that so many of our brothers and sisters are doing this terrible sin. I know how you feel and it makes my soul cry that we are losing so many to assimilation. Maybe the day will come when he will regret his decision and try to make ammends. I have seen this happen. I myself have gone down that road and was able to rectify it before it was out of control. Gentile women have always been a weakness to Jewish men, it is even in our Holy Torah {the episode with the women of Moab}.
I would not abandon your friend. I hope that the woman he is with is comfortable with your friends Jewishness. I hope he was honest with her about it. I don't know if you have talked to them about Judaism or religion in general. I sure hope that she would not lead him into Avodah Zarah. If that is the case I would recommend breaking the bonds. Otherwise you should try outreach, invite them to Shabbat, discuss Torah, try to get them back on the path of Jewish service.
It is so hard and there is so much to be unhappy about. Please have hope that your friend will make teshuva before the end.
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That's not an excuse. Everybody has free will and fornication is universally understood by the human heart to be an evil behavior (just like homosexuality). He is choosing this path because it is what he wants.
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Mumann don't worry, there's no avoda zarah since she's not even a religious protestant. I asked her if she would convert if she ever married a jewish guy and she said yes. Are we supposed to talk to goyim about joining judaism?
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That's not an excuse. Everybody has free will and fornication is universally understood by the human heart to be an evil behavior (just like homosexuality). He is choosing this path because it is what he wants.
Actually fornication is not an evil behavior... Not acording to Jewish belief. That is a Christian thing.
Sexual activity between a married man and woman is a Kiddush Hashem {Sanctification of His Name}...
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Mumann don't worry, there's no avoda zarah since she's not even a religious protestant. I asked her if she would convert if she ever married a jewish guy and she said yes. Are we supposed to talk to goyim about joining judaism?
I would let him talk to her about it. It is not your place to try to get her to convert. I know an Orthodox gentleman who is very Shomer Shabbat and Kosher who converted to marry his wife.
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Actually fornication is not an evil behavior... Not acording to Jewish belief. That is a Christian thing.
Sexual activity between a married man and woman is a Kiddush Hashem {Sanctification of His Name}...
Fornication by definition is sex between unmarried people.
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Actually fornication is not an evil behavior... Not acording to Jewish belief. That is a Christian thing.
Sexual activity between a married man and woman is a Kiddush Hashem {Sanctification of His Name}...
Fornication by definition is sex between unmarried people.
You have a point. I believe I incorrectly assumed you meant intercourse... Anyway, that is not the real issue here. So many kids today have sex before marriage that that alone is a tragedy.
Most people I know admit that they had sex before they were married.
Of course this is not condoning it. In a purely moral system this would not take place. But I would be less concerned if it was a pre-marital relationship between Jews.
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The Christian Bible affirms sex too. We take a very literal interpretation of Song of Songs and the Apostle Paul is very clear about how husbands and wives should provide for each other's needs.
In any event, both Mo's friend and his girlfriend are immoral people. One is a self-hating Jew and another is a self-hating Christian. I really don't care how secular they were brought up. Everybody has free will and everybody has the natural law of G-d written on their heart. If poor upbringing were a valid diminisher of the impact of sin, all of the idolatrous pagan nations would be off the hook simply because they were all taught from childhood to worship "gds" carved from stone and wood and all.
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Wouldn't that make any Jew who consistently commits a grave sin a "self-hating jew". What's the difference between banging a shiktza and eating Negro King every day?
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They're both bad, but I would call the sexual sin worse.
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So what u do?
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I said what I think the only things you can do are, pray for his redemption and repentance, and try to confront him with what he is doing and the risk of hell. That is what made me become religious.
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The Christian Bible affirms sex too. We take a very literal interpretation of Song of Songs and the Apostle Paul is very clear about how husbands and wives should provide for each other's needs.
In any event, both Mo's friend and his girlfriend are immoral people. One is a self-hating Jew and another is a self-hating Christian. I really don't care how secular they were brought up. Everybody has free will and everybody has the natural law of G-d written on their heart. If poor upbringing were a valid diminisher of the impact of sin, all of the idolatrous pagan nations would be off the hook simply because they were all taught from childhood to worship "gds" carved from stone and wood and all.
Again, I don't believe that is a Jewish response...
We believe that a Jew brought up in a goyisha house does not know the ways, and is not judged for the sins he commits. Once he learns the ways and is told what is wrong, and then commits the sin, is he responsible for his act.
I would not judge as harshly as Bonesfan...
You know that Hell is not eternal damnation to us... It is a soul correction, though not pleasant, it is beneficial...
PS: The Song of Songs is a psalm about the relationship between Hashem and his people Israel. We read it every Passover...
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/12224/jewish/Song-of-Songs.htm
Song of Songs: A book of Tanach authored by Solomon, depicting the love between G-d and the Jewish people, employing the metaphor of the love between husband and wife. In many communities it is read on the holiday of Passover.
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Where do we draw the line? He has a point albeit a bit extreme. If somebody spends their whole life doing something wrong but never learns that it is wrong, then to him it's truly not wrong, is it? My friend KNOWS not to date a shiktza but doesn't really UNDERSTAND. So bonesfan is right to an extent, but how can he possibly understand if it never was explained to him properly.
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There has to be reckoning for sin at some point, Muman. That is perfectly clear in Tanach.
Not being raised to believe in G-d is not an excuse for any human being. Creation (i.e. the earth and everything in it) itself is living testimony to the fact that there is one creator G-d who made everything. All of the basic laws (i.e. Noahide) of morality are programmed into the human heart as well. It is obvious that it is inherently wrong to murder, steal, lie, have homosexual/adulterous/fornicating relations, torture animals, etc. When people do these things anyway, it is a willful choice, not a matter of ignorance.
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So one of my best friends is dating a non-jewish girl. I met her, she's really nice and I'm happy he's happy. I'm orthodox and he's far removed from frumkeit. I tried months ago to rebuke him and tell him to not date her but to no avail. So it's been a few months and he recently told me they are sexually active. I pretended to be happy and supportive but deep down I was distraught. Nothing I say can make him dump her so I'm not going to bother again. But maybe I should. I'm so lost here. Any advice? Keep in mind this is one of my BEST friends and I love him like a brother and the last thing I want is to lose him especially if he'll continue doing her anyways.
בס''ד
It is a big mistake to pretend to be supportive of such a relationship. The worst thing you can do is let your friend think that he has a "stamp of kashrut" from you, his Orthodox friend. Even though you had good intentions, you might have contributed to your friend going down this terrible path.
I think you should frankly tell your friend that because you love him like a brother, you are deeply troubled by this relationship, which is completely forbidded by G-d. Millions of Jews throughout history were willing to lose their lives rather than forsake Torah Judaism. Intermarriage is a complete abandonment of Torah Judaism. You should appeal to your friend not to make this tragic mistake which he will greatly regret.
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Where do we draw the line? He has a point albeit a bit extreme. If somebody spends their whole life doing something wrong but never learns that it is wrong, then to him it's truly not wrong, is it? My friend KNOWS not to date a shiktza but doesn't really UNDERSTAND. So bonesfan is right to an extent, but how can he possibly understand if it never was explained to him properly.
It is his choice to lead a secular lifestyle. He all on his own could decide that G-d is worth seeking and striving after at all costs and come to a living faith in Hashem all on his own. He does not live in a place that forbids freedom of worship and I doubt that his parents would disown him for becoming a ba'al teshuah. The above is true of his shiksa girlfriend too.
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http://www.rabbiwein.com/Jerusalem-Post/2009/06/427.html
Judaism is a religion that requires more than just simple faith from its adherents – though that too is a fundamental requirement. Its emphasis on knowledge, study and intellectual pursuit for all of its adherents, not just for clergy or teachers, is one of its more unique qualities. Thus being an unlettered or ignorant Jew is almost an oxymoron in Jewish terms. While the Torah does not demand or expect every Jew to be a great Talmudic scholar, it does expect that all Jews will pursue the study of some Torah on a regular basis.
The unlettered Jew – the classical am haaretz – was considered the bane of Jewish society. The Talmud had harsh judgments regarding such people. They were seen as the enemies of spiritual progress in the Jewish community and as people, who in their ignorance, would turn against the scholars of Israel and its Torah. In short, they were not to be entrusted with the leadership or future of the Jewish community.
The Talmud made allowance for those Jews who had no chance to study Torah in their life, a child who was kidnapped and raised amongst the non-Jewish world, but it made little excuse for those who were raised in a Jewish society and had opportunity to study Torah and chose not to do so. The willfully ignorant can never be pious was the mantra of the rabbis of the Mishna. And this attitude has prevailed all through Jewish history.
Not all Jews were scholars but illiteracy in basic Jewish studies, the prayer book, the Bible, customs, traditions and observances was rare indeed. The lowliest Jews were aware of their heritage and its uniqueness and though ignorant in other forms of general knowledge were keenly aware of the basic books and ideas of Judaism. The surrounding Jewish society, the language that Jews spoke such as Yiddish and Ladino, the Jewish calendar and its special days all contributed to the minimum knowledge necessary to be a Jew in the traditional understanding of the word.
This situation has changed radically over the past century. Most of American Jewry is not assimilated – it is simply completely ignorant of its faith. There is no longer a societal bond, language or calendar that connects them to their token faith. They are abysmally ignorant of everything about Judaism.
Every new “progressive” idea dominates their worldview and they impose these currently correct ideas on Judaism. Is there any wonder therefore that the rates of assimilation and intermarriage remain so depressingly high? Faith and tradition cannot take root in the soil of Jewish ignorance. This not only applies to Jewish observances but it applies to the attitude of Jews towards the Land of Israel and the Jewish state as well.
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Millions of Jews throughout history were willing to lose their lives rather than forsake Torah Judaism. Intermarriage is a complete abandonment of Torah Judaism.
Chaim is absolutely right, Mo. And you can say the same thing to his self-hating girlfriend too if you ever have contact with her. How many millions of Christians have chosen to die torturous deaths as martyrs rather than surrender their faith in Jesus? What she is doing, both by fornicating and being with a non-Christian, is a huge slap to all of the Christian martyrs as well.
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There has to be reckoning for sin at some point, Muman. That is perfectly clear in Tanach.
Not being raised to believe in G-d is not an excuse for any human being. Creation (i.e. the earth and everything in it) itself is living testimony to the fact that there is one creator G-d who made everything. All of the basic laws (i.e. Noahide) of morality are programmed into the human heart as well. It is obvious that it is inherently wrong to murder, steal, lie, have homosexual/adulterous/fornicating relations, torture animals, etc. When people do these things anyway, it is a willful choice, not a matter of ignorance.
Bones,
You are harsh to judge, and that is a sign that you will be judged harshly... But Hashem is a merciful father who waits patiently for his children to return to him. I have found that when I judge others with mercy, I too am judged with mercy.
Hashem has told us that he will be with us when we return. It is not for you, or I, to say who is going to sit in heaven with the Master of the Universe. We can judge based on our understanding, and we can rebuke when we see evil, and we can stand up against injustice and cruelty. But the ultimate judge is Hashem. I have seen many cases of people going off the path, and coming back to the path.
You can choose your path, and you have judged harshly in every case I have seen you comment on.
I have judged those who deserve harsh judgement harshly, as those who commit evil against my people. I judged for the good in many cases. I don't think that by pushing people away you have the chance to pull them back in. There is a balance of rebuke and love which must be reached in order to bring peace to this world, and the next world.
PS: I am not making light of the fact that dating outside of Jewish religion is a very bad thing. But at this point he said he has already rebuked him, and his friend did not listen. I am just suggesting that the friendship not be destroyed entirely, just that the friend knows how much it hurts his brothers...
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Of course I don't know what the technical, internal Jewish response to this is. But sexual immorality and assimilation are terrible sins in Judaism and Christianity alike. Chaim was right about this. A soft approach will not likely do anything to dissuade the friend. I only became religious because the fear of hell was put in me many years ago, against my will.
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Muman, what you write is generally correct, but just a couple of important points are worth mentioning:
Someone who commits a sin בשוגג (beshogeg, out of ignorance or without evil intent) is still held responsible. The whole purpose of the sin offerings at Beit HaMikdash (the Holy Temple) is for sinners beshogeg. Sinners beshogeg must bring their animal sacrifices to repent for their transgressions. Now that we do not have Beit HaMikdash, tfilot (prayers) are our substitute for the animal sacrifices. Those who commit sins בזדון (bezadon, knowingly or with evil intent) cannot have their transgressions forgiven with animal sacrifices. Obviously, committing a sin with evil intent is judged much more harshly. Even someone who commits a sin with evil intent can be forgiven in most cases, but the punishment is more severe.
Jews who are simply ignorant will not be judged as harshly as Jews who knowingly defy G-d's laws. On Yom Hadin (The Day Of Judgement), we are all judged midah keneged midah (measure for measure) with perfect justice and with G-dly mercy.
As far as hell is concerned, it is corrective for some and punishment for others. There are many different levels of hell. Hitler and Stalin are not burning in hell so that they can be rehabilitated - they are burning in hell because a G-d of justice demands retribution against them for the unforgivable crimes which they committed. The Rambam teaches us that Amalekite monsters will never be forgiven and will indeed be punished for eternity. All of those who murdered Jews, hated Jews and wanted to see the Jews burn in hell forever (which is what Islam and some sects of Christianity believe) will themselves experience the horrors that they wished for against the Jews. They wanted the Jews to burn in hell forever - instead G-d will teach them a lesson by giving them the punishment that they wanted to bring upon the Jews.
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Jews who are simply ignorant will not be judged as harshly as Jews who knowingly defy G-d's laws. On Yom Hadin (The Day Of Judgement), we are all judged midah keneged midah (measure for measure) with perfect justice and with G-dly mercy.
Of course I believe that all persons are judged with perfect justice, but where do you draw the line between ignorance and willful disobedience? Fornication is a violation of the Noahide Laws, which as I understand are part of "natural law" that is universally written on the human heart. This guy could choose to seek G-d on his own, but his mind and heart are on worldly things/
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I do believe that when you urge a fellow Jew to observe mitzvot, you should usually do so carefully and with love so as not to turn the Jew even further away from Torah.
Another point: why does G-d demand repentence even for Jews who are ignorant? Because Jews will be asked on judgement day, why did you remain ignorant? Why didn't you try to learn and find out the truth? Again, the punishment is less severe if someone remains ignorant, but ignorance is still not a complete excuse for committing sins. Even in secular law, we have the rule: "Ignorance is no defense" - you can't say you violated the law because you didn't know any better.
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I do believe that when you urge a fellow Jew to observe mitzvot, you should usually do so carefully and with love so as not to turn the Jew even further away from Torah.
Another point: why does G-d demand repentence even for Jews who are ignorant? Because Jews will be asked on judgement day, why did you remain ignorant? Why didn't you try to learn and find out the truth? Again, the punishment is less severe if someone remains ignorant, but ignorance is still not a complete excuse for committing sins. Even in secular law, we have the rule: "Ignorance is no defense" - you can't say you violated the law because you didn't know any better.
I fully agree with this... Everyone has the ability, especially in this day and age, to learn Torah...
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Another point: why does G-d demand repentence even for Jews who are ignorant? Because Jews will be asked on judgement day, why did you remain ignorant? Why didn't you try to learn and find out the truth?
That's basically what I said. A person, any person, can choose to live for either worldly things, or heavenly things. Some people struggle with this, but others don't even care.
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Guess it's my responsibility. So essentially in the 0.1% chance he marries her it will be my fault even if I try to get him to dump her?
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No, no, no, that's not a biblical attitude or teaching at all--but you should try considering what a good friend he is.
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Guess it's my responsibility. So essentially in the 0.1% chance he marries her it will be my fault even if I try to get him to dump her?
No. If you try your best to prevent it, you will not be held responsible. On the contrary, you will be doing a righteous deed by trying to save your friend.
I suggest that you do this gently. That you emphasize to your friend that you are doing this because of your great concern for your friend's well-being both in this world and in the next.
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I knew a person who was head-over-heels for a catholic girl. Thing was she treated him like dreck at times...tried to change him and he bent over backwards to please her. After she got tired of playing with him, she dumped him...telling him that she'd rather be with a nice catholic boy and she left him for a guy who was planning to go into the priesthood.
Better he found out then than after they were married.
Had I been there, I would've smacked some sense into him and hopefully he would have left the little kurveh.
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I knew a person who was head-over-heels for a catholic girl. Thing was she treated him like dreck at times...tried to change him and he bent over backwards to please her. After she got tired of playing with him, she dumped him...telling him that she'd rather be with a nice catholic boy and she left him for a guy who was planning to go into the priesthood.
Better he found out then than after they were married.
Had I been there, I would've smacked some sense into him and hopefully he would have left the little kurveh.
Her dumping him was the luckiest thing that ever happened to him. If a girl treats you like crap when you're dating her, she's gonna make your life 1000 times worse if you marry her. And you'll probably end up with a divorce and a kid involved. Then you're up a creek without a paddle. I have some friends that fell into that situation.
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He's not frum because he wasn't brought up that way. He was never educated properly about the importance of dating jews. It's not his fault.
You're right, it's not his fault. It is the fault of those who stole away Judaism from him and stole away his heart and soul. This guilt goes back to the founders of Deform Judaism, and falls at the doorstep of every "Jewish" organization in the country. At the same time, there is always a chance for redemption. If you can somehow prevent him from intermarrying and over time show him the value of Judaism (show how great it has been in your life and how much you love it - but always careful not to overly "missionize" because that will turn people off), eventually he might realize how much you helped him and he might start to learn Torah or at least give his future (Jewish) kids a better Jewish education. This is all way more easily said than done.
But if you've already tried telling him straight up, and he didn't listen, then he is responsible. You tried. What I would say is to go a different route since straight talk didn't work. Go the psychological route. Make insinuations about the girl that she isn't smart enough for him, or isn't pretty enough, or isn't this or isn't that..... Just get him thinking. Don't say things like this directly but with sort of off-the-cuff comments..... where you are hinting at something without fully saying it. Things that are sort of laughed off, but later on he really will think about them and have doubts possibly... Just planting seeds. When they get in a fight or he meets someone new, these will come into play. And at the same time, while you are being subtle about breaking it up, you can of course never express approval in any way for this terrible situation. So you are basically neutral about it unless asked for approval which then you express how wrong it is, but otherwise you are sort of underhandedly messing with his psychology in regards to the girl without him knowing necessarily. That seems to me like a good strategy that has a chance of working. When you tell him not to and he doesn't listen, you can't really expect that straightforward way to work. That's my opinion. I am interpreting from what you say that you have already tried this route and it failed.
Yeah, he SEEMS happy but that is because he is getting some with this chick. Once it becomes physical, guys become blinded about the girl. And he can be just as happy with a different girl. Much more happy with a Jewish one. Well, good luck.
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Yeah, he SEEMS happy but that is because he is getting some with this chick. Once it becomes physical, guys become blinded about the girl. And he can be just as happy with a different girl.
Yes, he is living for today. Immorality is what is valuable to him, and is what he will be judged for if he does not repent.
Much more happy with a Jewish one. Well, good luck.
Well, I would hope that he doesn't have immoral relations with a Jewish girl either.
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Thanks guys. I have some ideas now. Appreciated.