JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The One and Only Mo on August 06, 2009, 03:16:27 PM
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In the States, I know it is pricey. There has to be some way to help lower class types to pay for some of that stuff, care,drugs. etc. I live in Canada and my dad lives in NY, and I'm happier with free health care. I don't know what the answer is for the states, but when my stepdad Olav Hashalom spent over two months in the hospital here in Canada, it was free. In the States, it would have been hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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Even though health care is free in Canada, though it is still terrible and requires a real long wait period. Employers will usually have health benefits for there employees. I think medicaid should only cover citizens that don't have a job and that have a preexisting condition.
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I wait longer in waiting rooms in NY than I do in Toronto.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=fvw
ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!
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I too live in Canada and I can assure you that there are many procedures for which the wait is much longer.
There is a reason that so many Canadians go to Buffalo and Detroit for MRI's and procedures of that nature.
Furthermore, the quality of healthcare in the United States is undoubtedly the best in the world. If a Canadian fresh out of Med school is aware of his superior skill, he will go to the United States, where he will be compensated duly, instead of receiving the same amount of money as a much inferior doctor.
This is why the best Canadian doctors practice in the U.S.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=fvw
ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!
I watched that a few weeks ago. It was funny.
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The government here would never be able to pay for and efficiently run a universal healthcare system
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Canada's a bad example because it has only 30 million people. But in the U.S. it's so expensive. I wish it weren't.
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
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The "king' Is trying to screw all of us
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Are u on crack??Who the hell would be on this forum if they didn't hate that crap? I hate all that stuff, Einstein. But I've never heard anybody waiting like that in the 13 years I've lived here. More people die if they can't afford to be healed. So either they "wait without treatment" because of the system or because they have no money?
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Mo, you are extremely rude and disrespectful to women. I do not appreciate you replying in such a manner.
Your reply has been reported to the moderators.
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what difference does it make what gender you are? U insulted me first.
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Are u on crack??Who the hell would be on this forum if they didn't hate that crap? I hate all that stuff, Einstein. But I've never heard anybody waiting like that in the 13 years I've lived here. More people die if they can't afford to be healed. So either they "wait without treatment" because of the system or because they have no money?
As an American I don't wan't a socialist goverment and obamas health plan is the start of it.If you like Canadas health plan so much feel free to move there.Remember the USA is a free country so feel free to leave.
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Please take note of pages 425-429, give this some thought. Stay informed and chase down your senators and representatives by phone or in person. I heard one senator say, "We are in this together." They are not because they don't have to join and will keep their own plan. More lying and "HYPOCRACY."
Pg 22 of the Health Care Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure.
Pg 30 Sec 123- THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED.
Pg 42 - The “Health Choices Commissioner” will choose your Heathcare Benefits for you. You have no choice.
PG 50 Section 152- Heathcare will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 53- Severability (KEY GEM)
“If any provision of the Act, or any application of such provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this Act and the application of the provision to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected.”
Pg 58 - Govt will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.
Pg 59 lines 21-24- Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an Healthcare Exchange to bring private Healthcare plans under Govt &nb sp;control.
Pg 84 Sec 203 - Govt=2 0mandates ALL benefit packages for private Healthcare plans in the Exchange.
Pg 91 Lines 4-7- Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example: Translation for illegal aliens
Pg 95 Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Healthcare plan.
PG 85 Line 7 - Specs of Benefit Levels For Plans. #AARP members- Your Health care WILL be rationed
PG 102 Lines 12-18- Medicaid-Eligible Individual will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
pg 127 Lines 1-16- RE: Doctors- The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for Healthcare for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who doesn’t provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
PG 150 Lines 9-13- Businesses with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable Healthcare according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 A ny NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual t axes. (Americans will pay)
Pg 195 -Officers & employees of Heathcare Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans financial/personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15- “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it actually says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24-Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be affected. Expendable.
Pg 241 Line 6-8- Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you will all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally sets the value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131-Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries
PG 268 Sec 1141- Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
P G 272 SEC. 1145- TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151- The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems “preventable re-admissions.”
Pg 298 Lines 9-11- Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission? Govt will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20-PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what and how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospital s cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13: Hospit als have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required.
Pg335 Lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Heahcare the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9: Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people.
Pg 379 Sec 1191- Govt creates more bureaucracy - “Telehealth Advisory Committee.”
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates “Advanced Care Planning Consultations.”
PG 425 the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with "end o f life counseling."
Pg 425 Lines 17-19: Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24: Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9: An “advanced care planning20consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates
PG 429 Lines 10-12: “advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government.
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15- The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit organizations. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17: PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
PG 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy.
Pg 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.”
This is only half the bill so far.
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what difference does it make what gender you are? U insulted me first.
I see NOWHERE that she insulted YOU first! >:(
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Don't fight on the forum. :'( Use the "private messages"
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what difference does it make what gender you are? U insulted me first.
I see NOWHERE that she insulted YOU first! >:(
Same here. ::)
"But we are a band of brothers"
Bonnie blue flag. :P
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>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :throw: :throw: :throw: :throw: :throw: :throw: :throw: :throw:
Please take note of pages 425-429, give this some thought. Stay informed and chase down your senators and representatives by phone or in person. I heard one senator say, "We are in this together." They are not because they don't have to join and will keep their own plan. More lying and "HYPOCRACY."
Pg 22 of the Health Care Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure.
Pg 30 Sec 123- THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED.
Pg 42 - The “Health Choices Commissioner” will choose your Heathcare Benefits for you. You have no choice.
PG 50 Section 152- Heathcare will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 53- Severability (KEY GEM)
“If any provision of the Act, or any application of such provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this Act and the application of the provision to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected.”
Pg 58 - Govt will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.
Pg 59 lines 21-24- Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an Healthcare Exchange to bring private Healthcare plans under Govt &nb sp;control.
Pg 84 Sec 203 - Govt=2 0mandates ALL benefit packages for private Healthcare plans in the Exchange.
Pg 91 Lines 4-7- Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example: Translation for illegal aliens
Pg 95 Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Healthcare plan.
PG 85 Line 7 - Specs of Benefit Levels For Plans. #AARP members- Your Health care WILL be rationed
PG 102 Lines 12-18- Medicaid-Eligible Individual will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
pg 127 Lines 1-16- RE: Doctors- The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for Healthcare for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who doesn’t provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
PG 150 Lines 9-13- Businesses with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable Healthcare according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 A ny NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual t axes. (Americans will pay)
Pg 195 -Officers & employees of Heathcare Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans financial/personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15- “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it actually says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24-Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be affected. Expendable.
Pg 241 Line 6-8- Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you will all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally sets the value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131-Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries
PG 268 Sec 1141- Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
P G 272 SEC. 1145- TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151- The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems “preventable re-admissions.”
Pg 298 Lines 9-11- Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission? Govt will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20-PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what and how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospital s cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13: Hospit als have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required.
Pg335 Lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Heahcare the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9: Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people.
Pg 379 Sec 1191- Govt creates more bureaucracy - “Telehealth Advisory Committee.”
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates “Advanced Care Planning Consultations.”
PG 425 the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with "end o f life counseling."
Pg 425 Lines 17-19: Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24: Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9: An “advanced care planning20consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates
PG 429 Lines 10-12: “advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government.
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15- The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit organizations. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17: PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
PG 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy.
Pg 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.”
This is only half the bill so far.
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Telling somebody you don't know that he/she prefers a lax government is an insult. How would you like it if somebody told you that? The point I was trying to make was that the world can be a better place without it having to be so expensive. Poverty has to lead to death and lack of treatment? I don't give a [censored] about Obama's plan, and frankly his crap won't work in the U.S. because it sucks for the U.S. Just because THAT plan sucks doesn't mean another plan might be better where people don't have to die because they can't afford it or wait for treatment. I've lived in both Canada and the U.S., I got the same treatment in both places except in Canada there was no bill. If you're going to bash the healthcare in Canada at least live in both places for a long time before you do. I'm not saying that the U.S. should do what Canada does, it won't work for them, but there has to be a solution. Baruch Hashem all of you can afford it, but others can't.
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No, employers do not always have healthcare for their employees, Ive worked for many, that had no healthcare.
Even though health care is free in Canada, though it is still terrible and requires a real long wait period. Employers will usually have health benefits for there employees. I think medicaid should only cover citizens that don't have a job and that have a preexisting condition.
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Telling somebody you don't know that he/she prefers a lax government is an insult. How would you like it if somebody told you that? The point I was trying to make was that the world can be a better place without it having to be so expensive. Poverty has to lead to death and lack of treatment? I don't give a drek about Obama's plan, and frankly his crap won't work in the U.S. because it sucks for the U.S. Just because THAT plan sucks doesn't mean another plan might be better where people don't have to die because they can't afford it or wait for treatment. I've lived in both Canada and the U.S., I got the same treatment in both places except in Canada there was no bill. If you're going to bash the healthcare in Canada at least live in both places for a long time before you do. I'm not saying that the U.S. should do what Canada does, it won't work for them, but there has to be a solution. Baruch Hashem all of you can afford it, but others can't.
Mo2388, Why shouldn't there be a bill? Is that what you want free healthcare? Nothing is free anyway. So we will be taxed for shoddy service? There are ways of reforming health care without making the system suck for everyone.
By the way I've worked in health care for many years, always in major medical centers. I have yet to see a pt. turned away. I sometimes see the uninsured get better treatment then the insured. They also get assistance to apply for assistance. If you like the Canadian style of healthcare, then that is where you should seek treatment. There are always options for people who can't afford healthcare. We need to help the people who are truly in the gap. Not the people who just don't choose to have health insurance or shouldn't be eligible. Why do we have to change for them?
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what difference does it make what gender you are? U insulted me first.
I see NOWHERE that she insulted YOU first! >:(
I did not insult him at all, he had to make up some excuse to cover his rude reply.
Thanks Dawn.... I appreciate the support. : )
Shalom - Elizabeth
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Are u on crack??Who the hell would be on this forum if they didn't hate that crap? I hate all that stuff, Einstein. But I've never heard anybody waiting like that in the 13 years I've lived here. More people die if they can't afford to be healed. So either they "wait without treatment" because of the system or because they have no money?
...and Mo, I think you owe RepublicanDox an apology. She in no way insulted you first. She is telling you that the majority of Americans are satisfied with our health care. It is a statistic. We discuss issues here.
You were way out of line.
Everyone receives treatment in this country, even those without money, insurance, or a right to the care. Maybe that is why our healthcare system is about to collapse.
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You guys, this is not worth a whole fight. I've heard horror stories about the nationalized healthcare in Canada and in Britain. But we can discuss that tomorrow night.
In a minute, I'm going to be taking the forum offline for Shabbat. So let's all just calm down.
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Dox, you know you are one of my favorite members, but I think this wasn't called for. He was just presenting his own point of view based on his own experiences in his country. I don't think it was right to imply he was a leftist.
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what difference does it make what gender you are? U insulted me first.
I see NOWHERE that she insulted YOU first! >:(
I don't see it either. I think she was disagreeing with him. That is what discussion is about.
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I don't see what he got all boiled up about. What most people fail to understand is that someone is paying the price to have a socialized system in Canada. I don't feature paying more then I already do and get less treatment then I am getting now so we can cover everyone. The sad fact of the matter is its either going to cost more or people will be getting less. Why should people paying the way be the ones that have to fight for services. In Canada people who are to old or to sick are the last ones getting the help they need and in most cases have been the people who have payed the most into the system. Socialist always seem to have their hands in the pockets of the most productive people in the society. Policies like that will soon make society in to a set of lazy animals just marking time to get by.
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Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
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Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
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Have you any idea how much money Canadians save on drugs? I'm not comparing the 2 systems. One country has 250 million people, another has 30 million. You can't compare. Until you live in Canada you can't say anything bad about the health care system. One summer I was in NY by my dad, and I ran out of a certain medication. I went to the Dr. in NY to get a new script. He charged like 40 bucks for like 5 minutes. The pills were like another 200 dollars. In Israel the same pills were 250 shekel for 2 weeks worth. In Canada, I pay nothing. I've been taking those same pills for 5 years now without having to lay out 200+ dollars per month.
I have a friend who's a diabetic living in Florida. I have another friend, also a diabetic, in Toronto. The diabetic in Florida pays more for insurance coverage over one year to cover insulin etc. than the diabetic in Toronto will have to spend on it in his entire life. Have you guys ever spoke to people who lived in both places and received care in both places? I'm not saying one is better than the other - - - that'd be comparing the incomparable - - - I'm not saying the U.S. should change anything or be more like Canada. That's impossible. I'm just saying don't judge until you've lived in both places like I have or at least have relatives in both places that can tell you first hand what it's like in the place where you don't live. I'm not a leftist just because I like getting free medication. Nobody I know complains about the taxes either. I'm just giving you an opinion here. That's all. Just sharing personal experience.
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Dox, you know you are one of my favorite members, but I think this wasn't called for. He was just presenting his own point of view based on his own experiences in his country. I don't think it was right to imply he was a leftist.
I didn't use the word leftist. I was disagreeing with him, nothing more or less.
Did you notice the first words of his reply? " are you on crack "
Disagreeing with someone about health care does not validate his rude reply.
P.S. You too are one of my favorite members : )
Shalom - Dox
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Are u on crack??Who the hell would be on this forum if they didn't hate that crap? I hate all that stuff, Einstein. But I've never heard anybody waiting like that in the 13 years I've lived here. More people die if they can't afford to be healed. So either they "wait without treatment" because of the system or because they have no money?
...and Mo, I think you owe RepublicanDox an apology. She in no way insulted you first. She is telling you that the majority of Americans are satisfied with our health care. It is a statistic. We discuss issues here.
You were way out of line.
Everyone receives treatment in this country, even those without money, insurance, or a right to the care. Maybe that is why our healthcare system is about to collapse.
Thank you Bullcat for your kind support.
Shalom - Dox : )
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Dox, you know you are one of my favorite members, but I think this wasn't called for. He was just presenting his own point of view based on his own experiences in his country. I don't think it was right to imply he was a leftist.
I didn't use the word leftist. I was disagreeing with him, nothing more or less.
Did you notice the first words of his reply? " are you on crack "
Disagreeing with someone about health care does not validate his rude reply.
P.S. You too are one of my favorite members : )
Shalom - Dox
What about me? :P LOL
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Mo, If you had a serious illness such as cancer, chances are 1 in 3 you would die waiting for treatment.
So in Canada, 1 out of every three seriously ill patients dies.
Here in the USA, if the obamanation gets his way, you can up the numbers of those dying to get treatment due to our much hugher population.
Perhaps you are fine with a Social Government and their lax medical care, lax laws againt murderers, etc, but we feel differently.
Dox, you know you are one of my favorite members, but I think this wasn't called for. He was just presenting his own point of view based on his own experiences in his country. I don't think it was right to imply he was a leftist.
I didn't use the word leftist. I was disagreeing with him, nothing more or less.
Did you notice the first words of his reply? " are you on crack "
Disagreeing with someone about health care does not validate his rude reply.
P.S. You too are one of my favorite members : )
Shalom - Dox
What about me? :P LOL
Yes, you too! :)
Shalom - Dox
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I'm glad to hear it. :P
Thanks anyway. :)
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Did you notice the first words of his reply? " are you on crack "
Disagreeing with someone about health care does not validate his rude reply.
No, no, I never said that it did. That was out of line.
P.S. You too are one of my favorite members : )
Thanks! ;D
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Did you notice the first words of his reply? " are you on crack "
Disagreeing with someone about health care does not validate his rude reply.
No, no, I never said that it did. That was out of line.
P.S. You too are one of my favorite members : )
Thanks! ;D
;D May G-d Bless you and may you live to be 120 years old!
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Eh, I would only want that if I can lead a decent quality of life and not be a burden to my loved ones. If I am that old, I hope that I can still be doing something actively for Kahanism and my faith. But may you live to be 120 (and with good quality of life) too, Elizabeth! :dance:
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Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
37
Have you any idea how much money Canadians save on drugs? I'm not comparing the 2 systems. One country has 250 million people, another has 30 million. You can't compare. Until you live in Canada you can't say anything bad about the health care system. One summer I was in NY by my dad, and I ran out of a certain medication. I went to the Dr. in NY to get a new script. He charged like 40 bucks for like 5 minutes. The pills were like another 200 dollars. In Israel the same pills were 250 shekel for 2 weeks worth. In Canada, I pay nothing. I've been taking those same pills for 5 years now without having to lay out 200+ dollars per month.
I have a friend who's a diabetic living in Florida. I have another friend, also a diabetic, in Toronto. The diabetic in Florida pays more for insurance coverage over one year to cover insulin etc. than the diabetic in Toronto will have to spend on it in his entire life. Have you guys ever spoke to people who lived in both places and received care in both places? I'm not saying one is better than the other - - - that'd be comparing the incomparable - - - I'm not saying the U.S. should change anything or be more like Canada. That's impossible. I'm just saying don't judge until you've lived in both places like I have or at least have relatives in both places that can tell you first hand what it's like in the place where you don't live. I'm not a leftist just because I like getting free medication. Nobody I know complains about the taxes either. I'm just giving you an opinion here. That's all. Just sharing personal experience.
Opinions are always good however this is a hot button issue right now here in America. I see this issue more than most others getting people so charged up that incidents of civil unrest will soon be busting out if the government gets heavy handed. You say no one complains about taxes at this point in Canada. Well what could be done to change the situation anyway? Government there has the people over a barrel and people are resigned to the level of care that is supplied. Right now I pay for the medical plan I want. It gives me what I am paying for when I want it. It's expensive and I have really never used it but if I should become sick I know everything I want done will be done. Why would I trade this for a system that will in the long run cost me more and allows a bureaucrat to look into my case and decide what I should or should not get. Medication here in America is high priced because the drug companies here have to recoup the money they put into R&D. If drug companies could not turn a profit on new medication what would be the point of them trying to develop anything new. Canada and other countries are playing a game by buying up generic brands and cloning medications beating the drug companies out of the profits on trade name medications. When Americans no longer foot the bill for R&D new and better medications will soon be a thing of the past. Government should never run things like this it should be run by the private sector and regulated by the government. Why would anyone want a system where the service provider is the overseer of the operation. Governments place is to regulate not to be the provider. The only people that could love a socialized medical system are people who think that they will be getting more from the system then they put in. The people paying the freight have nothing to gain by allowing the government to be their health care nanny.
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Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
37
Have you any idea how much money Canadians save on drugs? I'm not comparing the 2 systems. One country has 250 million people, another has 30 million. You can't compare. Until you live in Canada you can't say anything bad about the health care system. One summer I was in NY by my dad, and I ran out of a certain medication. I went to the Dr. in NY to get a new script. He charged like 40 bucks for like 5 minutes. The pills were like another 200 dollars. In Israel the same pills were 250 shekel for 2 weeks worth. In Canada, I pay nothing. I've been taking those same pills for 5 years now without having to lay out 200+ dollars per month.
I have a friend who's a diabetic living in Florida. I have another friend, also a diabetic, in Toronto. The diabetic in Florida pays more for insurance coverage over one year to cover insulin etc. than the diabetic in Toronto will have to spend on it in his entire life. Have you guys ever spoke to people who lived in both places and received care in both places? I'm not saying one is better than the other - - - that'd be comparing the incomparable - - - I'm not saying the U.S. should change anything or be more like Canada. That's impossible. I'm just saying don't judge until you've lived in both places like I have or at least have relatives in both places that can tell you first hand what it's like in the place where you don't live. I'm not a leftist just because I like getting free medication. Nobody I know complains about the taxes either. I'm just giving you an opinion here. That's all. Just sharing personal experience.
Opinions are always good however this is a hot button issue right now here in America. I see this issue more than most others getting people so charged up that incidents of civil unrest will soon be busting out if the government gets heavy handed. You say no one complains about taxes at this point in Canada. Well what could be done to change the situation anyway? Government there has the people over a barrel and people are resigned to the level of care that is supplied. Right now I pay for the medical plan I want. It gives me what I am paying for when I want it. It's expensive and I have really never used it but if I should become sick I know everything I want done will be done. Why would I trade this for a system that will in the long run cost me more and allows a bureaucrat to look into my case and decide what I should or should not get. Medication here in America is high priced because the drug companies here have to recoup the money they put into R&D. If drug companies could not turn a profit on new medication what would be the point of them trying to develop anything new. Canada and other countries are playing a game by buying up generic brands and cloning medications beating the drug companies out of the profits on trade name medications. When Americans no longer foot the bill for R&D new and better medications will soon be a thing of the past. Government should never run things like this it should be run by the private sector and regulated by the government. Why would anyone want a system where the service provider is the overseer of the operation. Governments place is to regulate not to be the provider. The only people that could love a socialized medical system are people who think that they will be getting more from the system then they put in. The people paying the freight have nothing to gain by allowing the government to be their health care nanny.
I know that would suck in the U.S. and hopefully Hashem will prevent that from happening, and I've made that clear. I'm still yet to see it as a burden in Canada, however. I've also never been billed here, so I'm still confused what you mean by it costing it me more here. U make it sound like the system in the states is purely a business. From the insurance companies to the drug companies.
I'm not afraid of getting sick in Canada either. As a matter of fact, I'd rather get sick in Canada because of no hospital bill. 2 emergency surgeries in Canada the last few years for me. I hit the ER, within an hour I was getting prepped for surgery. I couldn't complain about the service. No crazy long waiting. I've never EVER waited these long times like I hear about. None of my friends has ever complained about such a thing,either. Nobody I know has ever complained about quality of care or anything like that. In short, I really don't understand why I should hate it. Again, I stress, I'm talking strictly about Canada here.
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It has worked, more or less, in Canada because there aren't a lot of schvartzes and other third-world slime clogging the hospitals for their eighteen kids' colds.
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It has worked, more or less, in Canada because there aren't a lot of schvartzes and other third-world slime clogging the hospitals for their eighteen kids' colds.
:::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
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Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
37
Have you any idea how much money Canadians save on drugs? I'm not comparing the 2 systems. One country has 250 million people, another has 30 million. You can't compare. Until you live in Canada you can't say anything bad about the health care system. One summer I was in NY by my dad, and I ran out of a certain medication. I went to the Dr. in NY to get a new script. He charged like 40 bucks for like 5 minutes. The pills were like another 200 dollars. In Israel the same pills were 250 shekel for 2 weeks worth. In Canada, I pay nothing. I've been taking those same pills for 5 years now without having to lay out 200+ dollars per month.
I have a friend who's a diabetic living in Florida. I have another friend, also a diabetic, in Toronto. The diabetic in Florida pays more for insurance coverage over one year to cover insulin etc. than the diabetic in Toronto will have to spend on it in his entire life. Have you guys ever spoke to people who lived in both places and received care in both places? I'm not saying one is better than the other - - - that'd be comparing the incomparable - - - I'm not saying the U.S. should change anything or be more like Canada. That's impossible. I'm just saying don't judge until you've lived in both places like I have or at least have relatives in both places that can tell you first hand what it's like in the place where you don't live. I'm not a leftist just because I like getting free medication. Nobody I know complains about the taxes either. I'm just giving you an opinion here. That's all. Just sharing personal experience.
Opinions are always good however this is a hot button issue right now here in America. I see this issue more than most others getting people so charged up that incidents of civil unrest will soon be busting out if the government gets heavy handed. You say no one complains about taxes at this point in Canada. Well what could be done to change the situation anyway? Government there has the people over a barrel and people are resigned to the level of care that is supplied. Right now I pay for the medical plan I want. It gives me what I am paying for when I want it. It's expensive and I have really never used it but if I should become sick I know everything I want done will be done. Why would I trade this for a system that will in the long run cost me more and allows a bureaucrat to look into my case and decide what I should or should not get. Medication here in America is high priced because the drug companies here have to recoup the money they put into R&D. If drug companies could not turn a profit on new medication what would be the point of them trying to develop anything new. Canada and other countries are playing a game by buying up generic brands and cloning medications beating the drug companies out of the profits on trade name medications. When Americans no longer foot the bill for R&D new and better medications will soon be a thing of the past. Government should never run things like this it should be run by the private sector and regulated by the government. Why would anyone want a system where the service provider is the overseer of the operation. Governments place is to regulate not to be the provider. The only people that could love a socialized medical system are people who think that they will be getting more from the system then they put in. The people paying the freight have nothing to gain by allowing the government to be their health care nanny.
I know that would suck in the U.S. and hopefully Hashem will prevent that from happening, and I've made that clear. I'm still yet to see it as a burden in Canada, however. I've also never been billed here, so I'm still confused what you mean by it costing it me more here. U make it sound like the system in the states is purely a business. From the insurance companies to the drug companies.
I'm not afraid of getting sick in Canada either. As a matter of fact, I'd rather get sick in Canada because of no hospital bill. 2 emergency surgeries in Canada the last few years for me. I hit the ER, within an hour I was getting prepped for surgery. I couldn't complain about the service. No crazy long waiting. I've never EVER waited these long times like I hear about. None of my friends has ever complained about such a thing,either. Nobody I know has ever complained about quality of care or anything like that. In short, I really don't understand why I should hate it. Again, I stress, I'm talking strictly about Canada here.
In all honesty I can only go by what I hear but the little I did hear tells me that the older people get and the more problems they develop the longer the waits become to see specialist needed to keep them alive. For younger folks with one issue the system may be as good as what can be had through a private carrier here in the states. The issue here in the states is really not the level of medical care but the fact that the government wants to step in and divide the pie into more parts in order to cover folks who don't have insurance now. The government is hesitant to state it outright but the goal is the go to a one payer system since this is the only way to get the productive part of the population to pay for the dead wood. The money coming into the system to pay for services would then have to be parceled out thinly since the money coming in is not even enough to pay for the people who are now insured let alone the new people who the government has promised to cover. While most people agree no one should be left to die and people with no money should be given basic services what makes people with no ability to pay feel they should get the exact services a person with money and the ability to pay for the best doctors gets. The thought of the government taxing me for most of my income to supply me with something I can buy for myself at a price I am willing to pay is repulsive to me. Suppose I only want a hospital policy that only pays for a major illness but saves me $$ if I never go to a G.P. The government plan would be a tax that does not take that preference into account. The main problem with Obongo Care is that it puts government directly in charge of peoples medical care. This fact may be acceptable to people who are now without coverage and would not have incomes high enough to have to pay under a socialized system anything is better then nothing. But as a person that has had private insurance for years now thats worked well for me I don't see why I would want to change and put my life and money into the hands of people I don't really trust. From time to time one of the nightly talk show hosts I believe Hannity has a member of The House of Parliament speak on the health care system England supplies and he speaks about how inferior and expensive it is compared to what we have here in America. His advice to a socialized system for America is to resist it at all costs. It sounds like sage advice from the horses mouth not the horses as-es in Washington to me and I tend to agree with him.
-
Anybody who speaks about 'free' health care in Canada should be immediately dismissed as a crank. It's impossible to overstate the tax burden endured by the Canadians, all to support their 'free' health care and other socialist programs. A person could buy positively gold-plated private medical coverage (and a lot more) for what the Canadians pay in taxes.
I speak from some experience: my American company has an operation in Canada. In my opinion, their work ethic runs from poor to awful, and it comes from their all-intrusive social safety net, which in reality is not a net but a hammock.
The Canadians have a faith in their government that borders on childlike. I can honestly say this: I'm far (underline far) more impressed with the staffers in my company's Mexican operation than those in our Canadian operation.
As someone who refuses to accept this constant media effort to raise the self-esteem of 'brown' Americans, it pains me to say that about the Canadians, but that's what I've observed. We'd be insane to parrot that nation.
37
Have you any idea how much money Canadians save on drugs? I'm not comparing the 2 systems. One country has 250 million people, another has 30 million. You can't compare. Until you live in Canada you can't say anything bad about the health care system. One summer I was in NY by my dad, and I ran out of a certain medication. I went to the Dr. in NY to get a new script. He charged like 40 bucks for like 5 minutes. The pills were like another 200 dollars. In Israel the same pills were 250 shekel for 2 weeks worth. In Canada, I pay nothing. I've been taking those same pills for 5 years now without having to lay out 200+ dollars per month.
I have a friend who's a diabetic living in Florida. I have another friend, also a diabetic, in Toronto. The diabetic in Florida pays more for insurance coverage over one year to cover insulin etc. than the diabetic in Toronto will have to spend on it in his entire life. Have you guys ever spoke to people who lived in both places and received care in both places? I'm not saying one is better than the other - - - that'd be comparing the incomparable - - - I'm not saying the U.S. should change anything or be more like Canada. That's impossible. I'm just saying don't judge until you've lived in both places like I have or at least have relatives in both places that can tell you first hand what it's like in the place where you don't live. I'm not a leftist just because I like getting free medication. Nobody I know complains about the taxes either. I'm just giving you an opinion here. That's all. Just sharing personal experience.
Opinions are always good however this is a hot button issue right now here in America. I see this issue more than most others getting people so charged up that incidents of civil unrest will soon be busting out if the government gets heavy handed. You say no one complains about taxes at this point in Canada. Well what could be done to change the situation anyway? Government there has the people over a barrel and people are resigned to the level of care that is supplied. Right now I pay for the medical plan I want. It gives me what I am paying for when I want it. It's expensive and I have really never used it but if I should become sick I know everything I want done will be done. Why would I trade this for a system that will in the long run cost me more and allows a bureaucrat to look into my case and decide what I should or should not get. Medication here in America is high priced because the drug companies here have to recoup the money they put into R&D. If drug companies could not turn a profit on new medication what would be the point of them trying to develop anything new. Canada and other countries are playing a game by buying up generic brands and cloning medications beating the drug companies out of the profits on trade name medications. When Americans no longer foot the bill for R&D new and better medications will soon be a thing of the past. Government should never run things like this it should be run by the private sector and regulated by the government. Why would anyone want a system where the service provider is the overseer of the operation. Governments place is to regulate not to be the provider. The only people that could love a socialized medical system are people who think that they will be getting more from the system then they put in. The people paying the freight have nothing to gain by allowing the government to be their health care nanny.
I know that would suck in the U.S. and hopefully Hashem will prevent that from happening, and I've made that clear. I'm still yet to see it as a burden in Canada, however. I've also never been billed here, so I'm still confused what you mean by it costing it me more here. U make it sound like the system in the states is purely a business. From the insurance companies to the drug companies.
I'm not afraid of getting sick in Canada either. As a matter of fact, I'd rather get sick in Canada because of no hospital bill. 2 emergency surgeries in Canada the last few years for me. I hit the ER, within an hour I was getting prepped for surgery. I couldn't complain about the service. No crazy long waiting. I've never EVER waited these long times like I hear about. None of my friends has ever complained about such a thing,either. Nobody I know has ever complained about quality of care or anything like that. In short, I really don't understand why I should hate it. Again, I stress, I'm talking strictly about Canada here.
In all honesty I can only go by what I hear but the little I did hear tells me that the older people get and the more problems they develop the longer the waits become to see specialist needed to keep them alive. For younger folks with one issue the system may be as good as what can be had through a private carrier here in the states. The issue here in the states is really not the level of medical care but the fact that the government wants to step in and divide the pie into more parts in order to cover folks who don't have insurance now. The government is hesitant to state it outright but the goal is the go to a one payer system since this is the only way to get the productive part of the population to pay for the dead wood. The money coming into the system to pay for services would then have to be parceled out thinly since the money coming in is not even enough to pay for the people who are now insured let alone the new people who the government has promised to cover. While most people agree no one should be left to die and people with no money should be given basic services what makes people with no ability to pay feel they should get the exact services a person with money and the ability to pay for the best doctors gets. The thought of the government taxing me for most of my income to supply me with something I can buy for myself at a price I am willing to pay is repulsive to me. Suppose I only want a hospital policy that only pays for a major illness but saves me $$ if I never go to a G.P. The government plan would be a tax that does not take that preference into account. The main problem with Obongo Care is that it puts government directly in charge of peoples medical care. This fact may be acceptable to people who are now without coverage and would not have incomes high enough to have to pay under a socialized system anything is better then nothing. But as a person that has had private insurance for years now thats worked well for me I don't see why I would want to change and put my life and money into the hands of people I don't really trust. From time to time one of the nightly talk show hosts I believe Hannity has a member of The House of Parliament speak on the health care system England supplies and he speaks about how inferior and expensive it is compared to what we have here in America. His advice to a socialized system for America is to resist it at all costs. It sounds like sage advice from the horses mouth not the horses as-es in Washington to me and I tend to agree with him.
Do we have any Englishmen on this forum? I heard NHS there was actually quite good. I would like to hear an experience.
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cjd, did you get the pic I posted for you awhile back? Thought you'd like to add this to your collection. ;D
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/arksis59/ObamaMedicalCare.jpg)
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cjd, did you get the pic I posted for you awhile back? Thought you'd like to add this to your collection. ;D
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/arksis59/ObamaMedicalCare.jpg)
:::D
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cjd, did you get the pic I posted for you awhile back? Thought you'd like to add this to your collection. ;D
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss136/arksis59/ObamaMedicalCare.jpg)
Thanks for posting the picture arksis whoever made that picture hit the nail right on the head. The picture is priceless.. :o.. its an attention getter for sure and I am going to save it and use it in my signature when I get a few moments to redo it correctly. I can't even laugh about this issue anymore because this filthy animal inhabiting the oval office will most likely end up getting this program pushed through. The American public have become so weak minded that they don't have the sense to see the animal is bringing them to the slaughter.
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I have a blogging friend named Joe, an American who's been living in New Zealand for several years. Joe's in his mid-forties.
Here's what he wrote about socialized healthcare on his blog.
Let’s break it down into language we can all understand. As many of you know, I am an American living and working in the socialist haven of New Zealand, and I have some personal and vicarious experience in the system that is in place here. The model is the same, with a few differences, in just about every other socialized Western Democracy.
Here is an all too common scenario faced by patients in socialized health care systems such as what we have in New Zealand.
You plan ahead and go to your GP (general practitioner/family doctor) for a regular physical or check-up. By the way, only surgeries, hospital and emergency care are “free”; you pay out of pocket $40-$50 to see your GP, plus whatever blood work or prescriptions you need. Only infants get free GP coverage. Now, let’s say the doctor finds something wrong, and he/she refers you to a specialist for further evaluation.
Here’s where the fun starts.
You call to set-up that appointment and get put on a waiting list, and that can be as little as a couple of days to as long as 8 or 9 months – or longer. There is no negotiating or haggling on that. It’s done based on category of severity which is assessed by the district health board, and YOU have NO SAY in that matter – you are what they tell you you are, and that’s that. You finally get to see the specialist, and if further treatment is needed, you get put on a priority list which is, again, assessed by the district health board.
Now the REAL fun starts.
When it comes down to it, the older you are (once you’re over 50 or 60), the further to the back of the line you go. There are only so many resources available (it’s called rationing in any other universe), and the bureaucrats at the district medical boards decide who will get what first based on what value you have to the system. In other words, if two people need, let’s say, a hip replacement, heart surgery, cancer treatment – whatever – and one of them is 20 and the other is 65, the 20 year old will most likely get it before the 65 year old will. Why? Because as a 65 year old, you’re already retired, collecting your retirement, and basically, your days are numbered as a contributing tax payer – the state isn’t going to get any more production out of you. The 20 year old, well, the state looks at him or her as a cash cow with a whole life ahead of them that the state can milk for taxes to pay for all the other [censored] the state pays for.
Now, you can jump up and down, write letters, protest all you want, but it won’t likely get you anywhere. Here in New Zealand you can’t sue. There is only so much money to go around when the tax base is so limited in a small country like NZ, and there are so many government entitlement programs competing for funding. Doctors and nurses and every other state-funded health care provider are on a fixed salary, and to top that off, they all have unions, so it seems almost every other week one group or another is going on strike.
But do you know what the real problem is? The bureaucracy. Inevitably what happens is that any time there is an increase in funding or expanding care in the form of treatment and/or facilities, who gets a big portion of that funding? The bureaucrats – mid level administrators to oversee the programs, commission feasibility studies to determine cost effectiveness, and all the other [censored]. In other words, people with job titles and no real job get their money first, leaving little left over for the front-line healthcare providers, the facilities, the pharmaceuticals, etc., where the money SHOULD be going. Regarding prescribed drugs, the state has a list of approved drugs and providers, and you have little or no say in that matter either.
As a result, we are facing a constant shortage of quality people to work in this country’s health care system because so many New Zealand-educated doctors and nurses leave here for greener pastures overseas in places like Australia (which has socialized health care but can pay a better wage and is close to NZ), Canada, the UK (not much better than NZ) – but guess where a lot of New Zealand’s best medical professionals end-up: The US of A. So we have a lot of doctors from India and other parts of Asia and other parts of the world, many of whom, despite having to qualify by New Zealand standards, have questionable qualifications and slip through the cracks. The big saving grace are the professionals (and not just in medicine) who come from South Africa – and they aren’t the ones who are of the same skin hue of Nelson Mandella, if you know what I mean. I’ll say it right here: Thank God for the white South Africans or Afrikaners coming to New Zealand because without them this country would be severely [censored], and as long as things in South Africa remain as [censored]-up as they are, the Afrikaners will keep coming here to fill the void left by quality New Zealanders leaving.
If all that sounds good to you, then by all means, support Obamacare, because that is what you’re going to get – or something very close to it.
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Check out one mother's experience with the Canadian system:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105511
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"Code Blue, intensive care unit," "Code Blue, intensive care unit!"
When the Code-Blue alarm sounded over the hospital's loudspeaker system, my husband and I knew it sounded for our daughter. It was 11 p.m. The hallways of the British Columbia hospital were dark. Only one emergency operating theatre was in use. She was in it. The skeletal staff came running. Resuscitation carts were rushed toward the theatre.
My own heart nearly stopped, because she is my heart.
To follow Dr. David Gratzer's plainspoken definition (the good doctor is a Canada-care whistleblower), Code Blue is "the term used when a patient's heart stops and hospital staff must leap into action to save him." My then 12-year-old had stopped breathing on the operating table and was being revived.
Earlier that day she had broken her arm sliding down an embankment with friends. She arrived home, coat draped awkwardly over her disfigured limb, and stood in the doorway sheepishly. Sheepish because she feared I'd be angry. You see, she had fibbed about her whereabouts and was supposed to be studying.
Sheepish, but heroic, as we would soon discover.
"Oh those bones, oh those bones," goes the old song. My familiarity with the structure of the human arm until then extended to, "the finger bone is connected to the hand bone, and the hand bone is connected to the arm bone, and the arm bone is connected to the shoulder bone, Oh mercy how they scare!"
A subsequent X-ray of Nicky's arm many hours on would reveal that nothing much was connected any longer. Hers was not just any old fracture. The humerus and the ulna were completely severed. The free-floating bones were pushing out against the skin. Yet the child never so much as whimpered.
We rushed her to the hospital where we imagined she'd get care right away. Recent immigrants to Canada, this was our first encounter with the single-payer health care system
. Back in the "old country," South Africa, we had benefited from a thriving, profitable, private sector in medicine, where relatively unrestricted entry into the profession, and the prospects of a lucrative, prestigious career, attracted the country's crème de la crème, and ensured a steady supply of graduates from excellent medical schools. (These once venerated institutions have since succumbed to the malignant effects of affirmative action that privileges the majority population. Consequently, South Africa's medical schools are no longer internationally recognized.)
The old-fashioned family physician had pride of place in this market and still made house calls. Emergency calls were answered by an "on call" partner in a practice, and not an answering machine. If you had no insurance, you'd contract directly with your medic, and pay him off, little by little, if necessary.
Commensurate with job satisfaction, voluntarism was high among the doctors I patronized. Once a month, my daughter's pediatrician, bless him, would venture into the "bush" to treat underprivileged children, gratis. Another specialist repaired cleft palates, also for free.
These superb practitioners had done stints in Britain's government-run National Health Service. Obama would call them racists, but, as they told it, the NHS was staffed mainly by graduates of Pakistan's medical schools. Oxford and Cambridge-bound students were less likely to be enticed by the prospects of capped physician fees and squalid working conditions.
My daughter was born in a private, spiffy, state-of-the-art South African clinic, entirely within the financial reach of a middle-class young family. Now she was writhing in excruciating pain, on a hard bench, in full view of her unforgiving caretakers, in the dilapidated corridors of a state-run Canadian hospital.
In retrospect, the admissions process was devoid of any manner of medical prioritizing. A woman who complained of a migraine was being interviewed at length ahead of us. She took her time, as did her interviewer. A few sullen sorts were being checked out for mild sniffles as we waited.
And waited.
It was abundantly clear that the service, perceived as free by the freeloading public, was being overused. Yet separating urgent from trivial cases did not seem to form part of the protocol. This was compounded by the cruel indifference of the gatekeepers – the receptionists and emergency nurses.
So we sat and we sat. Every now and then I'd rise to plead for a palliative for my agonized child and her detached limb. Cold stares and stern admonitions were all I got. Two hours into the wait, my daughter finally began sobbing quietly. Still, the staff stared. When we were eventually summoned, a bureaucrat began filling in a lengthy questionnaire. I realized where she was going with her probes. Before the medical abuse would cease, child abuse had to be ruled out. The woman was investigating us for breaking our daughter's arm!
Next in store was a protracted stretch on a gurney, unattended. Another eternity passed before the mangled arm was X-rayed with great difficulty. A tired looking young surgeon explained the severity of the fracture. This was not a case for a cast. Nicky would require surgery sometime that night. When, he could not say. An inept nurse began poking the child's arm for a vein. I swooned at the sight of the punctured, bleeding little appendage. My husband kept vigil as I recovered outdoors. After another nurse was called in, a morphine IV was finally inserted. It stayed in until she was operated on – hours later.
A cursory investigation into why Nicky coded that night was conducted. The findings were, conveniently, inconclusive. The custodians of Canada care had tried to convince me that my daughter had reacted to a compound in the chemical cocktail that was the anesthetic.
A decade on, the same precious person required wisdom teeth
extraction, this time in the United States. She had forgotten how close she had once come to dying, but the thought of another such procedure panicked her mother.
Nicky's American oral and maxillofacial surgeon, however, had no qualms whatsoever about putting her under in his well-appointed rooms. (Yes, we paid him out of pocket; ever heard of saving for a procedure instead of going on holiday?) For after hearing all the facts of the case, he was in a position to explain what had happened 10 years back.
It took a free American practitioner, in private practice, to deconstruct for me what had transpired on that fateful day.
The subpar care Nicky had received entailed the ongoing administration of morphine. Morphine, especially in a young child, depresses the respiratory system. Administered following hours on morphine, the general anesthetic acted cumulatively to stop her breathing.
Why is this episode typical of a day in the life of a patient interned in a state-run health care system?
As one wag warned: "Power will intoxicate the best hearts, as wine the strongest heads. No man is wise enough, nor good enough to be trusted with unlimited power." (Except for Obama, naturally.)
The license to exercise near-unlimited power goes hand-in-glove with an indifferent, cruel and invasive bureaucracy.
In the U.S., an overly litigious society has led to the practice of defensive medicine. But in the "public option's" sphere of influence, responsibility is collectivized. The culprits of a Code Blue or the odd slip of the scalpel have no out-of-pocket payments to fear. Had I sued the hospital, the comatose Canadian taxpayer would have been forced to pony up for the malpracticing parties.
In defense of the medics who ministered to Nicky let me say this: Most were good. All were hopelessly locked into a professional gulag in which wages are tied to a negotiated deal with labor, rather than – as is the case in a competitive market – to the individual physician's performance.
For his considerable skill, the surgeon who pinned Nicky's shattered bones together is rewarded with an increased workload, but no extra pay. Medical men and women like him must watch as mediocre practitioners are elevated beyond their capabilities, and as underperforming hospitals are "fixed" with infusions of funds. For such are the perverse, inverse incentives in all government departments – failure is rewarded with more resources. Coupled with capped fees and overflowing waiting rooms, these medical conscripts must contend with antiquated equipment and obsolete drugs.
Doctors are all corralled into this one and only "company." There is no other option, public or private. Should their instinct for freedom get the better of them, they must defect to America.
And soon that option will die, too.
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Here's another article about the NHS in Britain, and how they're denying pain injections to older people with back pain:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-refuses-to-pay-for-painkilling-injections.html
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Patients forced to live in agony after NHS refuses to pay for painkilling injections
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.
Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.
Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.
The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.
But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.
Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped.
"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"
The NICE guidelines admit that evidence was limited for many back pain treatments, including those it recommended. Where scientific proof was lacking, advice was instead taken from its expert group. But specialists are furious that while the group included practitioners of alternative therapies, there was no one with expertise in conventional pain relief medicine to argue against a decision to significantly restrict its use.
Dr Jonathan Richardson, a consultant pain specialist from Bradford Hospitals Trust, is among more than 50 medics who have written to NICE urging the body to reconsider its decision, which was taken in May.
He said: "The consequences of the NICE decision will be devastating for thousands of patients. It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive, and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky, and has a 50 per cent failure rate."
One in three people are estimated to suffer from lower back pain every year, while one in 15 consult their GP about it. Specialists say therapeutic injections using steroids to reduce inflammation and other injections which can deaden nerve endings, can provide months or even years of respite from pain.
Experts said that if funding was stopped for the injections, many clinics would also struggle to offer other vital services, such as pain management programmes and psychotherapy which is used to manage chronic pain.
Anger among medics has reached such levels that Dr Paul Watson, a physiotherapist who helped draft the guidelines, was last week forced to resign as President of the British Pain Society.
Doctors said he had failed to represent their views when the guidelines were drawn up and refused to support the letter by more than 50 of the group's members which called for the guidelines to be withdrawn.
In response, NICE chairman Professor Sir Michael Rawlins expressed outrage over the vote that forced Dr Watson from his position, describing the actions of the society as "shameful". He accused pain specialists of refusing to accept that there was insufficient scientific evidence to support their practices.
A spokesman for NICE said its guidance did not recommend that injections were stopped for all patients, but only for those who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known.
Iris Watkins, 80 from Appleton, in Cheshire said her life had been "transformed" by the use of therapeutic injections every two years. The pensioner began to suffer back pain in her 70s. Four years ago, despite physiotherapy treatment and the use of medication, she had reached a stage where she could barely walk.
"It was horrendous, I was spending hours lying on the sofa, or in bed, I couldn't spend a whole evening out. I was referred to a specialist, who decided to give me a set of injections. The difference was tremendous",
Within days, she was able to return to her old life, gardening, caring for her husband Herbert, and enjoying social occasions.
"I just felt fabulous – almost immediately, there was not a twinge. I only had an injection every two years, but it really has transformed my life; if I couldn't have them I would be in despair".
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I have a blogging friend named Joe, an American who's been living in New Zealand for several years. Joe's in his mid-forties.
Here's what he wrote about socialized healthcare on his blog.
Let’s break it down into language we can all understand. As many of you know, I am an American living and working in the socialist haven of New Zealand, and I have some personal and vicarious experience in the system that is in place here. The model is the same, with a few differences, in just about every other socialized Western Democracy.
Here is an all too common scenario faced by patients in socialized health care systems such as what we have in New Zealand.
You plan ahead and go to your GP (general practitioner/family doctor) for a regular physical or check-up. By the way, only surgeries, hospital and emergency care are “free”; you pay out of pocket $40-$50 to see your GP, plus whatever blood work or prescriptions you need. Only infants get free GP coverage. Now, let’s say the doctor finds something wrong, and he/she refers you to a specialist for further evaluation.
Here’s where the fun starts.
You call to set-up that appointment and get put on a waiting list, and that can be as little as a couple of days to as long as 8 or 9 months – or longer. There is no negotiating or haggling on that. It’s done based on category of severity which is assessed by the district health board, and YOU have NO SAY in that matter – you are what they tell you you are, and that’s that. You finally get to see the specialist, and if further treatment is needed, you get put on a priority list which is, again, assessed by the district health board.
Now the REAL fun starts.
When it comes down to it, the older you are (once you’re over 50 or 60), the further to the back of the line you go. There are only so many resources available (it’s called rationing in any other universe), and the bureaucrats at the district medical boards decide who will get what first based on what value you have to the system. In other words, if two people need, let’s say, a hip replacement, heart surgery, cancer treatment – whatever – and one of them is 20 and the other is 65, the 20 year old will most likely get it before the 65 year old will. Why? Because as a 65 year old, you’re already retired, collecting your retirement, and basically, your days are numbered as a contributing tax payer – the state isn’t going to get any more production out of you. The 20 year old, well, the state looks at him or her as a cash cow with a whole life ahead of them that the state can milk for taxes to pay for all the other drek the state pays for.
Now, you can jump up and down, write letters, protest all you want, but it won’t likely get you anywhere. Here in New Zealand you can’t sue. There is only so much money to go around when the tax base is so limited in a small country like NZ, and there are so many government entitlement programs competing for funding. Doctors and nurses and every other state-funded health care provider are on a fixed salary, and to top that off, they all have unions, so it seems almost every other week one group or another is going on strike.
But do you know what the real problem is? The bureaucracy. Inevitably what happens is that any time there is an increase in funding or expanding care in the form of treatment and/or facilities, who gets a big portion of that funding? The bureaucrats – mid level administrators to oversee the programs, commission feasibility studies to determine cost effectiveness, and all the other excrement. In other words, people with job titles and no real job get their money first, leaving little left over for the front-line healthcare providers, the facilities, the pharmaceuticals, etc., where the money SHOULD be going. Regarding prescribed drugs, the state has a list of approved drugs and providers, and you have little or no say in that matter either.
As a result, we are facing a constant shortage of quality people to work in this country’s health care system because so many New Zealand-educated doctors and nurses leave here for greener pastures overseas in places like Australia (which has socialized health care but can pay a better wage and is close to NZ), Canada, the UK (not much better than NZ) – but guess where a lot of New Zealand’s best medical professionals end-up: The US of A. So we have a lot of doctors from India and other parts of Asia and other parts of the world, many of whom, despite having to qualify by New Zealand standards, have questionable qualifications and slip through the cracks. The big saving grace are the professionals (and not just in medicine) who come from South Africa – and they aren’t the ones who are of the same skin hue of Nelson Mandella, if you know what I mean. I’ll say it right here: Thank G-d for the white South Africans or Afrikaners coming to New Zealand because without them this country would be severely deleted, and as long as things in South Africa remain as deleted-up as they are, the Afrikaners will keep coming here to fill the void left by quality New Zealanders leaving.
If all that sounds good to you, then by all means, support Obamacare, because that is what you’re going to get – or something very close to it.
I've never heard of paying for a GP visit, paying for blood work, or waiting to see a specialist. Maybe that's in New Zealand.
"If all that sounds good to you, then by all means, support Obamacare, because that is what you’re going to get – or something very close to it." Nobody would want that in the States, obviously. Maybe somebody else living in Canada other than me can share experiences so you can see it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. Again, I want to stress, I'm talking only about the Canada.
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The accounts that Lisa posted are of the type that most people talk about. If there are positive stories out there on this issue I would be interested in hearing some of them. Good or bad stories I could never accept the fact that the government would control the health care system here in the U.S.A. Anything the federal government runs becomes a bloated mess. About the only thing they run with any efficiency is the I.R.S and almost every one knows what dealing with them could be like. Dealing with something like that is the last thing I would want if I was sick.
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The accounts that Lisa posted are of the type that most people talk about. If there are positive stories out there on this issue I would be interested in hearing some of them. Good or bad stories I could never accept the fact that the government would control the health care system here in the U.S.A. Anything the federal government runs becomes a bloated mess. About the only thing they run with any efficiency is the I.R.S and almost every one knows what dealing with them could be like. Dealing with something like that is the last thing I would want if I was sick.
I agree with cjd, good or bad stories, the government already has more than enough CONTROL over things. The stories Lisa posted here are the majority of what I've heard too.
cjd, glad you enjoyed the picture, I thought of you when I saw it. :laugh:
I printed out the picture you have saying So America, you want change? Just you wait! I love to leave them in different parts of town and later see people's reactions. Most agree with US!
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The picture is priceless! :::D