JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The One and Only Mo on September 08, 2009, 08:56:04 PM
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OK guys I give up. I don't understand why there are Christians supporting a Jewish movement. I've kept this to myself for a long time, but I feel like I need to share. I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism (sports aside). Why do you guys support Israel/JTF? Don't you guys believe in Jesus and all that New Testament stuff? Aren't the Jews just an afterthought? I can see you guys supporting JTF based on it's position on the U.S.A. and chutz l'aretz, but how can you support Judaism if you guys are devout Christians? I apologize if I'm coming off as rude or negative, but I don't see how gentiles can truly contribute to a Jewish movement whose sole purpose is for the sake of Jews. I just need to know how Christians can put up with all this Judaism and why.
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Mo2388, I'm Jewish, but here's my two cents.
There are Christian Zionists who believe Genesis where G-d wrote, I will bless them that bless you and curse those that curse you. And along with Chaim's position on what America needs to do, they're also no fan of islamos.
But that's just how I see it.
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Mo2388, I'm Jewish, but here's my two cents.
There are Christian Zionists who believe Genesis where G-d wrote, I will bless them that bless you and curse those that curse you. And along with Chaim's position on what America needs to do, they're also no fan of islamos.
But that's just how I see it.
So all the Christian members here are here because of those reasons ONLY?
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What you don't want Christians to be members of the organization?
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Mo.
Some people are secure in their own identity. For instance, some nonJews (including some christians) are secure enough in their own beliefs or their own identity, that they don't feel the need to "change" everyone else or "change" Jews. They are just fine with supporting Jews as a friendly ally with common interests. They want good for the Jew and the Jew can want good for them. Since they believe in the Bible, the nonJew knows that complete redemption comes to the entire world after it comes to the Jewish people. So they want good for us because it's good for everyone.
Not to mention, muslims did 9/11. And islamic terror seems to be everywhere now. These are all factors IMO. Not sure why it's so surprising to you. As a Jew you should know what it's like to be comfortable in yourself and not wanting to change all the other people (ie, you don't want to go proseltyzing to nonJews or tell them to learn gemara).....
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OK guys I give up. I don't understand why there are Christians supporting a Jewish movement. I've kept this to myself for a long time, but I feel like I need to share. I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism (sports aside). Why do you guys support Israel/JTF? Don't you guys believe in Jesus and all that New Testament stuff? Aren't the Jews just an afterthought? I can see you guys supporting JTF based on it's position on the U.S.A. and chutz l'aretz, but how can you support Judaism if you guys are devout Christians? I apologize if I'm coming off as rude or negative, but I don't see how gentiles can truly contribute to a Jewish movement whose sole purpose is for the sake of Jews. I just need to know how Christians can put up with all this Judaism and why.
Mo, Christianity is a Judeocentric faith. We are based on Judaism. We use the same Tanach that you do and almost all of the apostles and first church fathers, not to mention Jesus Himself, were Jewish.
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Why not?
We're not all like Mel Gibson.
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Why not?
We're not all like Mel Gibson.
lol
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Mo2388, I'm Jewish, but here's my two cents.
There are Christian Zionists who believe Genesis where G-d wrote, I will bless them that bless you and curse those that curse you. And along with Chaim's position on what America needs to do, they're also no fan of islamos.
But that's just how I see it.
So all the Christian members here are here because of those reasons ONLY?
I'm not saying that's the ONLY reason Christians support JTF. That's just the impression I get.
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OK guys I give up. I don't understand why there are Christians supporting a Jewish movement. I've kept this to myself for a long time, but I feel like I need to share. I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism (sports aside). Why do you guys support Israel/JTF? Don't you guys believe in Jesus and all that New Testament stuff? Aren't the Jews just an afterthought? I can see you guys supporting JTF based on it's position on the U.S.A. and chutz l'aretz, but how can you support Judaism if you guys are devout Christians? I apologize if I'm coming off as rude or negative, but I don't see how gentiles can truly contribute to a Jewish movement whose sole purpose is for the sake of Jews. I just need to know how Christians can put up with all this Judaism and why.
I know what you mean.
I'm a christian arab myself, living in israel, and yes I might not be a zionist, I don't believe non-jews can be zionists (no offense to anyone) because this means that they believe that god have given Israel to the jews, and made it their homeland until the messiah arrives and settle all things right = Judaism. However you try to look at Zionism, you will always end up with Judaism. I'm not against, there is a different, I just don't believe it, or in it.
However ... my main reason to support jtf and israel, is Islam. I [censored] hate Islam so much, its a plague, a disaster that have struck the moral, and the intellectual human brain 1400 years ago. And its eating me from the inside, just sitting here doing nothing makes me feel guilty, so, this is one common thing between us (christians) and you (jews).
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
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If you are not a Zionist, Marv, how can you support us at all?
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Madmarv, are you happy living in Israel?
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OK guys I give up. I don't understand why there are Christians supporting a Jewish movement. I've kept this to myself for a long time, but I feel like I need to share. I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism (sports aside). Why do you guys support Israel/JTF? Don't you guys believe in Jesus and all that New Testament stuff? Aren't the Jews just an afterthought? I can see you guys supporting JTF based on it's position on the U.S.A. and chutz l'aretz, but how can you support Judaism if you guys are devout Christians? I apologize if I'm coming off as rude or negative, but I don't see how gentiles can truly contribute to a Jewish movement whose sole purpose is for the sake of Jews. I just need to know how Christians can put up with all this Judaism and why.
I know what you mean.
I'm a christian arab myself, living in israel, and yes I might not be a zionist, I don't believe non-jews can be zionists (no offense to anyone) because this means that they believe that G-d have given Israel to the jews, and made it their homeland until the messiah arrives and settle all things right = Judaism. However you try to look at Zionism, you will always end up with Judaism. I'm not against, there is a different, I just don't believe it, or in it.
However ... my main reason to support jtf and israel, is Islam. I stupid hate Islam so much, its a plague, a disaster that have struck the moral, and the intellectual human brain 1400 years ago. And its eating me from the inside, just sitting here doing nothing makes me feel guilty, so, this is one common thing between us (christians) and you (jews).
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
I think the notion that one must be a Jew to be Zionist is absurd, but I do not blame you as clearly your Palestinian schooling has imbued that into you, as much as you seem to have escaped the propaganda.
Why must one be Jewish to believe that God gave Israel to the Jews? You just said that Christians believe in the Torah, and it says that in the Torah, so to me it seems weird that one is Christian but states that only Jews can be Zionist.
If you believe in the Torah, you believe in Zionism.
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This reminds me of an old thread I read on here that was made by a Serbian member where he questioned JTF's motives for supporting Serbia.
Anyways, I see a lot of similarities and parralels with the Jewish and the Serbian people. We have both been persecuted throughout our history and have suffered tremendously to say the least. The Serbian Christian Orthodox church has never had any problems with Judaism nor has it persecuted Jews. I truly believe that Jews and Serbs are and should be allies. In fact, Serbia and America should also be allies. Religious Jews and espiecially Orthodox Jews hold the same principal and moral values as Orthodox Serbs do. I believe that most Serbs on this forum would agree with me on that.
JTF is a good movement. I agree with a lot of JTF's positions. Obviously I despise Islam. I also believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people. So there are a lot of good reasons for supporting JTF. There are a lot of intelligent people here and there are a lot of interesting topics to talk about. But that's just me. I'm worried though because it sounds like you have a lot of hostility towards Christians. Though I completely understand why you have this concern. If JTF had nothing to do with Serbia, I probably wouldn't be here and I probably could care less about the movement. But having been here for a while and learning about Israel more and more, the more I realize that JTF is right.
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<snip>
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
Actually there is much in the NT which contradicts the Torah...
1) Jesus is G-d
2) Trinity
3) Jesus is Moshiach
4) Abrogation of the Oral Law
5) Understanding of Good Vs Evil {Satan vs Devil, Original Sin, etc.}
6) Praying to Jesus instead of praying to Hashem.
7) Images {i.e. cross w/dead deity}
8) NT Seeks to replace Torah
9) Requiring a human sacrifice to atone for sin {He died for their sins...}
And there are many other differences...
PS: we can get along as long as the Christian members don't expect us to believe that stuff..
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Of course we know the scriptures in Genesis, that I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. We also believe the Jewish people have been treated inhumanely by Hamas and Hezbollah, and Islam, and we do not believe the Palestinians have claim to the land that God gave to Abraham. My love for Israel and the Jewish people came from studying the entire bible, and knowing what the biblical days were like, and knowledge of Jesus who died so all of us could be saved from sin and death.
We gentiles were given the gospel too, and it is God's plan for us to bless and love God's people. I also believe this is no coincidence that we have come together in unity against Islam and this administration. I fear that this administration has some pretty evil plans in mind for Israel and America. I belong to 5 Jewish organizations and contribute to all, and to merchants in Jerusalem to help them. The love comes from God. I am totally and earnestly truthful in what I'm saying. We were destined to be united at this time in history.
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Actually there is much in the NT which contradicts the Torah...
1) Jesus is G-d
2) Trinity
3) Jesus is Moshiach
4) Abrogation of the Oral Law
5) Understanding of Good Vs Evil {Satan vs Devil, Original Sin, etc.}
6) Praying to Jesus instead of praying to Hashem.
7) Images {i.e. cross w/dead deity}
8 ) NT Seeks to replace Torah
9) Requiring a human sacrifice to atone for sin {He died for their sins...}
And there are many other differences...
PS: we can get along as long as the Christian members don't expect us to believe that stuff..
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
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Of course we know the scriptures in Genesis, that I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. We also believe the Jewish people have been treated inhumanely by Hamas and Hezbollah, and Islam, and we do not believe the Palestinians have claim to the land that G-d gave to Abraham. My love for Israel and the Jewish people came from studying the entire bible, and knowing what the biblical days were like, and knowledge of Jesus who died so all of us could be saved from sin and death.
We gentiles were given the gospel too, and it is G-d's plan for us to bless and love G-d's people. I also believe this is no coincidence that we have come together in unity against Islam and this administration. I fear that this administration has some pretty evil plans in mind for Israel and America. I belong to 5 Jewish organizations and contribute to all, and to merchants in Jerusalem to help them. The love comes from G-d. I am totally and earnestly truthful in what I'm saying. We were destined to be united at this time in history.
Do you have some scriptural basis for this? According to scriptures {as I understand} we don't need any help from the nations to accomplish our messianic completion...
PS: Although I have heard many Rabbis explain that the righteous gentiles will certainly be in the world to come. But there is a specific definition of what constitutes a righteous gentile.
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Do you have some scriptural basis for this? According to scriptures {as I understand} we don't need any help from the nations to accomplish our messianic completion...
No Gentile Zionists say that Jews "need" us, no, but we do believe that we were called by G-d to offer our blessing in any way that we can.
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Do you have some scriptural basis for this? According to scriptures {as I understand} we don't need any help from the nations to accomplish our messianic completion...
No Gentile Zionists say that Jews "need" us, no, but we do believe that we were called by G-d to offer our blessing in any way that we can.
I certainly believe that you feel a calling because I have witnessed your devotion to this cause, and the cause of righteousness... I hope that the entire Church is full of people who feel a calling by Hashem to be a part of the story of Creation of this Olam {world}.
BTW, I have said many times that all humanity is holy... I hope that I have not hurt anyones feelings by my expressing these Jewish religious ideas. And of course every Rabbi can interpret things according to their understanding. I am not a Rabbi, and I only learn from my experience and studying Torah online with many wonderful Rabbis around the country.
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I think the notion that one must be a Jew to be Zionist is absurd, but I do not blame you as clearly your Palestinian schooling has imbued that into you, as much as you seem to have escaped the propaganda.
Why must one be Jewish to believe that G-d gave Israel to the Jews? You just said that Christians believe in the Torah, and it says that in the Torah, so to me it seems weird that one is Christian but states that only Jews can be Zionist.
If you believe in the Torah, you believe in Zionism.
My palestinian schooling? true our schools teach Islamic history, and more of pro palestinian propaganda, but who says I believe in this? being here in this forum clearly states the opposite.
Let me research about the underlined sentence first and ask people with greater knowledge than me about christianity, and I'll get back to you.
Lisa: Happy is a relative term :) I'm happy that I don't live in any other arabic country, if that's what you mean ... however, I'd gladly live in lebanon 100 years ago (when islamic retardation haven't been spread there yet).
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I am glad there are Christian members here. While there are some major theological disagreements between Judaism and Christianity, one is not a complete antithesis of another. We have some important things in common.
I also agree with KWRBT when he said:
Some people are secure in their own identity. For instance, some nonJews (including some christians) are secure enough in their own beliefs or their own identity, that they don't feel the need to "change" everyone else or "change" Jews. They are just fine with supporting Jews as a friendly ally with common interests. They want good for the Jew and the Jew can want good for them. Since they believe in the Bible, the nonJew knows that complete redemption comes to the entire world after it comes to the Jewish people. So they want good for us because it's good for everyone.
As for Christian antisemites, I don't believe their anti-Semitism is because of Christianity. Right, they search and find things in Christian religion to hate Jews but they are just seeking for excuses. If they were Muslims, Pagans or of some other belief, they would be the same anti-Semites. Their anit-Semitism is something on a very fundamental level, more basic than nation, religion or culture.
My personal opinion is that JTF is not purely Jewish movement. JTF challenges moral degradation and strive for dictatorship (be it Islamic or Marxist), the things that threaten both Jews and Gentiles alike.
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I would add something.
JTF is an American organization. JTF cares about America, wants America to be strong and happy. As a non-American, I see it very clear from outside.
I respect this. Torah says us that if a country you live in does not persecute Jews, you are must be a good citizen and the country's laws are as obligatory as the Torah laws.
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<snip>
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
Actually there is much in the NT which contradicts the Torah...
1) Jesus is G-d
2) Trinity
3) Jesus is Moshiach
4) Abrogation of the Oral Law
5) Understanding of Good Vs Evil {Satan vs Devil, Original Sin, etc.}
6) Praying to Jesus instead of praying to Hashem.
7) Images {i.e. cross w/dead deity}
8) NT Seeks to replace Torah
9) Requiring a human sacrifice to atone for sin {He died for their sins...}
And there are many other differences...
PS: we can get along as long as the Christian members don't expect us to believe that stuff..
I have news for you, Muman.
No one expects you to believe 'that stuff'. You are Jewish. ???
I don't see any evidence that the Gentile members are attempting to convert you, or Mo, to Christianity.
What is the point of this thread? Is it an attempt to drive a wedge between the members of the forum?
P.S. I don't accept your disclaimer. Your words are often very offensive, when it comes to Christians, and I believe they are meant to be. No big deal. It's just the way you feel. Stick with it.
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<snip>
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
Actually there is much in the NT which contradicts the Torah...
1) Jesus is G-d
2) Trinity
3) Jesus is Moshiach
4) Abrogation of the Oral Law
5) Understanding of Good Vs Evil {Satan vs Devil, Original Sin, etc.}
6) Praying to Jesus instead of praying to Hashem.
7) Images {i.e. cross w/dead deity}
8) NT Seeks to replace Torah
9) Requiring a human sacrifice to atone for sin {He died for their sins...}
And there are many other differences...
PS: we can get along as long as the Christian members don't expect us to believe that stuff..
I have news for you, Muman.
No one expects you to believe 'that stuff'. You are Jewish. ???
I don't see any evidence that the Gentile members are attempting to convert you, or Mo, to Christianity.
What is the point of this thread? Is it an attempt to drive a wedge between the members of the forum?
P.S. I don't accept your disclaimer. Your words are often very offensive, when it comes to Christians, and I believe they are meant to be. No big deal. It's just the way you feel. Stick with it.
Well the wedge is toxic and in my opinion it has already taken its Toll. The guest numbers have not been that great and many of our gentile membership have had all they can take and have moved on. What is the point of animosity like this. Proselytizing is not allowed and the rule is strictly enforced as well it should be. Kahane forum had a one sided membership it had it's 10 or 15 posts a day and was one of the most boring forums on the web. Half of the posts were complaints about the gentile membership here at JTF. Well... we all saw how that puppy ended up. Anyway our forum is full of great people and its headed by one of the best leaders I know. Needles to say this Gentile was here on day one and is not going to let one or two chronic complainers spoil what we are trying to do here. Speak your peace and post Torah Verse from morning to night Muman. I read most of them and am learning more and more every day.
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From what I understand:
Born-again believers, in particular, believe they are grafted into the promises of G-d, and G-d can take that promise away, considering they are not the original root, but are being supported by it: Jewish people.
Anyway, here we go again, Christians dont get enough hatred from the Bolsheviks, but, now here is this thread.
Rabbi Kahane was LOVED and adored by Gentiles, even more than Jews, the same for David Ben Moshe and Chaim Ben Pesach, So, OBVIOUSLY they LOVE them, so- wtf is the deal here??
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as a hindu, i have more affinity towards Judaism than Christianity. Of whatever i have seen of christianity in India, it hurt me. And i see how the same evangelists operate in Israel too, some even work to marry among jews.. to convert innocent jewish women. It is very easy to talk about Judeo-Christian unity, but this can go against the jewish people... A Jew needs to be a Jew and not Judeo-Chrisitan propogater. I'm sorry if my understanding is wrong?
Of whatever i know of the Jewish people in India. They have been deeply nationalists,great patriots, hard working.. and facing the same threat of what Hindus face. Indian Jews have retained their Indian-Sanskrit name. But Muslims and Christians in India have even changed to arabic or roman names. I have witness Indian Jews saying that Israel is their Fatherland, and India is their Motherland. Muslims do not belive in father-motherlands. While Indian Christians would prefer loving Mother Mary over our Mother Land. So much so for nationalism.
Yes as a Hindu,we shall work with the Jews in whatever way we can co-operate.
It does not matter if Jews condemn idol worshipping. Sikhs condemn idol worshipping too. But we have lived with love and respect with the Sikhs for centuries.
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as a hindu, i have more affinity towards Judaism than Christianity. Of whatever i have seen of christianity in India, it hurt me. And i see how the same evangelists operate in Israel too, some even work to marry among jews.. to convert innocent jewish women. It is very easy to talk about Judeo-Christian unity, but this can go against the jewish people... A Jew needs to be a Jew and not Judeo-Chrisitan propogater. I'm sorry if my understanding is wrong?
This is absolutely true. But the point is that OUR Christian members don't try to convert any Jew directly or indirectly. If so, there is no need to remind them that some of their co-believers do that. They shouldn't not feel suspected all the time. They are our friends.
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Well the wedge is toxic and in my opinion it has already taken its Toll. The guest numbers have not been that great and many of our gentile membership have had all they can take and have moved on. What is the point of animosity like this.
Well, I agree with you. There is a couple of Jewish members (I am not naming names) that have been making this forum inhospitable to Gentiles by their divisive posts and opinions.
By the way, closing this form for Shabbat (which didn't use to be the policy) doesn't help to make the atmosphere friendly and conducive to a Gentile-Jewish cooperation. This forum is ostensibly for Jews AND Gentiles. Gentiles are specifically not supposed to observe the Shabbat. There is no reason to close the forum so that half of the forum does not have a place to meet.
I have a strong belief that future victory can only be gained through building bridges between righteous Jews and Gentiles.
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Well the wedge is toxic and in my opinion it has already taken its Toll. The guest numbers have not been that great and many of our gentile membership have had all they can take and have moved on. What is the point of animosity like this.
Well, I agree with you. There is a couple of Jewish members (I am not naming names) that have been making this forum inhospitable to Gentiles by their divisive posts and opinions.
By the way, closing this form for Shabbat (which didn't use to be the policy) doesn't help to make the atmosphere friendly and conducive to a Gentile-Jewish cooperation. This forum is ostensibly for Jews AND Gentiles. Gentiles are specifically not supposed to observe the Shabbat. There is no reason to close the forum so that half of the forum does not have a place to meet.
I have a strong belief that future victory can only be gained through building bridges between righteous Jews and Gentiles.
I agree on that, specially the last part.
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I agree also
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Also, there are churches that have "Zion Fellowships".
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WHY THE HELL WOLD I TRY TO DO SOMETHING BAD?
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I don't believe non-jews can be zionists (no offense to anyone) because this means that they believe that G-d have given Israel to the jews, and made it their homeland
Why can't a non-Jew believe that? Is that not in the Bible?
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I think I have a right to know why Christians support a Jewish movement, and most of you answered my question. I thought I could ask ANY question on this forum and some of you proved yourselves too sensitive to answer an innocent, yet very important question. On top of that, you are accusing me of creating a "toxic" environment. Excuse me? Just because I want to know Christian motives for supporting JTF, all of a sudden, I'm a villain? How is it that I got some very nice answers which helped me learn more, and some other people answer me by accusing me of doing bad? One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn, and I don't see how my question was anything more than educational, albeit for my own sake. I guess from now on I have to be more careful with what I ask because I'll always have to be afraid of offending somebody.
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I don't understand why a non-Christian should tell Christians what their faith is or is not about.
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I guess from now on I have to be more careful with what I ask because I'll always have to be afraid of offending somebody.
We must always be careful with our words. We should think what to ask and how to ask. This is especially true for the international forum where people have different backgrounds and what is innoncent for the one can be offensive to the other.
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Well the wedge is toxic and in my opinion it has already taken its Toll. The guest numbers have not been that great and many of our gentile membership have had all they can take and have moved on. What is the point of animosity like this.
Well, I agree with you. There is a couple of Jewish members (I am not naming names) that have been making this forum inhospitable to Gentiles by their divisive posts and opinions.
By the way, closing this form for Shabbat (which didn't use to be the policy) doesn't help to make the atmosphere friendly and conducive to a Gentile-Jewish cooperation. This forum is ostensibly for Jews AND Gentiles. Gentiles are specifically not supposed to observe the Shabbat. There is no reason to close the forum so that half of the forum does not have a place to meet.
I have a strong belief that future victory can only be gained through building bridges between righteous Jews and Gentiles.
Well ,yes the forum did remain open on Shabbat for the first year or so. I have always felt it is a mistake to completely shut the forum down during that time. However out of respect to Chaim and our Jewish members that wish to see it closed I never said much about it. People should at least be able to read the forum if not post. The fact the the forum disappears on the two days that people for the most part can stay up late and spend time on the forum has cost us countless support. I also agree with the last sentence of your post. The way I see it its the only way anything can be accomplished.
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I think I have a right to know why Christians support a Jewish movement, and most of you answered my question. I thought I could ask ANY question on this forum and some of you proved yourselves too sensitive to answer an innocent, yet very important question. On top of that, you are accusing me of creating a "toxic" environment. Excuse me? Just because I want to know Christian motives for supporting JTF, all of a sudden, I'm a villain? How is it that I got some very nice answers which helped me learn more, and some other people answer me by accusing me of doing bad? One of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn, and I don't see how my question was anything more than educational, albeit for my own sake. I guess from now on I have to be more careful with what I ask because I'll always have to be afraid of offending somebody.
This is my impression, but I think the problem they are concerned about was less in your question and more in a response or two that you got. For some reason there are certain people on the forum who seemingly act in an opportunist manner and always find ways to stress the religious differences between Judaism and Christianity (or at least one way of viewing Christianity, since you can't really present all its various viewpoints in one shot), whenever possible, in a let's say "not so positive" way. And this was seen as one of those opportunities for whatever reason. When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
So I believe you when you say you were asking an honest question, and honestly I do not blame you, just because some people may take the opportunity to start antagonizing. You can't control what other people write, and you can't censor yourself because someone 'might' hijack the thread.
That being said, it is good to be careful about how you word things so as to unite people rather than drive people apart.
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I love G-d and G-d's people. The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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I didn't have a problem with Mo's question. One or two responses bothered me.
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If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
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Here is the original post I made in this thread which appears people are upset about:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,37845.msg380854.html#msg380854
Obviously I was stating the differences when someone had made a statement that there are no differences...
PS: If there were no differences why should a Jew be Jewish? Obviously our martyrs who died in the Inquisition died for a good reason..
I also have known Christians who openly say that Jews are going to Hell for not believing in their Diety... I have never said a Christian is going to suffer for not being Jewish... I find that whole theology very difficult to comprehend..
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I didn't have a problem with Mo's question. One or two responses bothered me.
It's the instructor thats the problem not the student. Think about it!!
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If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
*sigh* Here we go again, Muman. Again with this divisiveness.
Obviously Christians DO believe that the NT is compatible with Torah if we are biblical Zionists. I had every right to explain why I am a Zionist in response to the OP question.
Is it that hard for you to just leave things alone?
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If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
*sigh* Here we go again, Muman. Again with this divisiveness.
Obviously Christians DO believe that the NT is compatible with Torah if we are biblical Zionists. I had every right to explain why I am a Zionist in response to the OP question.
Is it that hard for you to just leave things alone?
Ok... I am leaving it alone... I believe that Mo did not realize what he was doing and there should not be any bad feelings for him. I also am not trying to be divisive.
Please try to understand my position from the Jewish perspective..
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When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
You're a genius! I couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer the original question, I can only tell you how I feel about it. I believe the Bible when it says that we should bless Israel. I think the Jews do have promises that are made to them by God that were never nullified. I think it's important to acknowledge that curses will fall upon those who curse Israel and respond accordingly.
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
However, I'm not here to convert you to anything, I'm not here for selfish reasons. I believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and I admire the Jewish nation even though it is not my own nation. JTF will always focus primarily on Jewish needs and Jewish causes. I am not here primarily to help the USA or Gentiles in any fashion. I'm here to help Jewish people in Israel.
I want the Jewish settlers to win!
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It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
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It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
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It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
Bullcat,
This is entirely uncalled for... I did nothing to attack you, nor your religion. Are you serious in your accusation? This is certainly not true and you are blowing what I have said entirely out of proportion.
I said "Don't expect us to believe this stuff"... What is wrong with that? I also pointed out the areas where there are differences.
Your anger is misplaced. I help both Jews and Gentiles with my charity. I work with and respect many non-Jews... Do not make such accusations against me.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
as long as no one forces gospel down the throat of my people(hindus) and the people i care(jews), i'm fine with Christian members of JTF.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
as long as no one forces gospel down the throat of my people(hindus) and the people i care(jews), i'm fine with Christian members of JTF.
Who forces the gospel here?
I would never want to be a fellow Christian
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
Thank you so much HZ...
And I want to clarify that my position is in line with all Jewish zionist associations. I do not hate anyone, especially any long time member of JTF. I work very hard to try to make peace, and to bring peace to myself.
When I write that there are differences it doesn't mean I have any anger at those who are different. I want to maintain the Jewish identity which is only ensured when we retain Jewish ideas and Jewish morals. I do believe that JTF is doing much good in bringing the message of Zionism to the people. I hope that I am not an interference to that goal.
I will apologize personally to anyone who I have offended. My statements are made in pure belief that a Jewish nation requires Jewish motivation and support. I have explained many times my battle against assimilation. I do not blame any non Jew for assimilation because it is our own fault.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
as long as no one forces gospel down the throat of my people(hindus) and the people i care(jews), i'm fine with Christian members of JTF.
Who forces the gospel here?
I would never want to be a fellow Christian
there are 1-2 members who support missionising to hindus and hindu nationalists. they are indirectly attacking the largest block of zionists on the planet(hindu nationalists organisaitons). so how can they support an organisaiton like JTF which is open to zionists? you cannot apply two different yardstick to (hindus and jews)zionists. Let me give you an example. Consider some christian member supporting missionising in India. he/she will donate something to the ministry for the same cause. What is the guarentee that this money will be used to convert hindus or convert jews?
I once talked to Yad L'Achim representative. I discussed many issues about missionising/zionism/islam. and we all had similar views and concerns. and the shocking thing was, the same evangelist organisations are working both in India and Israel.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people.
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
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I said "Don't expect us to believe this stuff"... What is wrong with that? I also pointed out the areas where there are differences.
Muman, to say to the Christians "Don't expect us to believe this stuff" is uncalled for. No Christian member here has ever tried to missionize. JTF has a strict policy against that. So comments like that are just not nice. No one here is forcing anything on you, or the other Jews.
Like Kahane Was Right said earlier, we know the differences between Judaism and Christianity, and most people here are OK with it. We agree on many things. But we've agreed to disagree on certain religious points. So what's the big deal? Why do you insist on harping on the differences, and rubbing people's noses in it?
Jews
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
like how Mo' was accussed of dividing jtf memebers?
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people.
like how Mo' was accussed of dividing jtf memebers?
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
So your saying most if not all the Christian members here are Neo-Gentile?
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Alright, now I'm confused. What's a neo-gentile? And what do you mean "suspect Jewish people?"
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I said "Don't expect us to believe this stuff"... What is wrong with that? I also pointed out the areas where there are differences.
Muman, to say to the Christians "Don't expect us to believe this stuff" is uncalled for. No Christian member here has ever tried to missionize. JTF has a strict policy against that. So comments like that are just not nice. No one here is forcing anything on you, or the other Jews.
Like Kahane Was Right said earlier, we know the differences between Judaism and Christianity, and most people here are OK with it. We agree on many things. But we've agreed to disagree on certain religious points. So what's the big deal? Why do you insist on harping on the differences, and rubbing people's noses in it?
Jews
Lisa,
My response was because someone stated something which could be taken to mean that there is no difference between the teaching of the Church and the teaching of our Torah. I wanted to point out that actually there are. Of course I know that all religious Jews here already know this but I am concerned about an agnostic Jew who may be influenced by believing other religions {if it is not different}.
I am not trying to do anything other than discuss this topic. I gain nothing by offending anyone, especially people I have considered like family to me for the last year and a half.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
So your saying most if not all the Christian members here are Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people....like how Mo' was accussed of dividing jtf members by some..
ps:sorry my earlier post got messed up
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I would like to be able to apologize correctly... Please tell me what exactly I said which was hurtful?
This entire argument is dragging me down spiritually today... I would like peace, please?
PS: I wont be able to reply for another 1 1/2 hours... I need to drive in to work now... Please help me resolve this dilemma.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
So your saying most if not all the Christian members here are Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people....like how Mo' was accussed of dividing jtf members by some..
ps:sorry my earlier post got messed up
This is the first time I hear this term, who came up with it ?
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
What the hell is a Neo-Gentile?
Gentiles who suspect Jews?
Suspect Jews of what?
So your saying most if not all the Christian members here are Neo-Gentile?
Neo-Gentile people are those people who proclaim themself as Gentiles, at the same time suspect jewish people....like how Mo' was accussed of dividing jtf members by some..
ps:sorry my earlier post got messed up
This is the first time I hear this term, who came up with it ?
It's not a real term
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i got that term from some Israeli history book, cant remember the name. in that book they refered to christians who supported israel only to support their Holy land(the place where Jesus had some connections). But they did not purely support Israel for the sake of jewish people. such people were refered to as neo-gentiles. I will try to locate the book, and let you know the name. :)
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<snip>
Another thing, just as much as you think we are different, think no more ... we believe in the torah, the torah is part of our religion as well, we believe in it and in the new testimony together as one. The new testimony is just about jesus life and his teachings, it doesn't contradict or negate the torah, everyone knows that... However, we might not believe in the Talmud.
Hope that answers your skepticism. :)
Actually there is much in the NT which contradicts the Torah...
1) Jesus is G-d
2) Trinity
3) Jesus is Moshiach
4) Abrogation of the Oral Law
5) Understanding of Good Vs Evil {Satan vs Devil, Original Sin, etc.}
6) Praying to Jesus instead of praying to Hashem.
7) Images {i.e. cross w/dead deity}
8) NT Seeks to replace Torah
9) Requiring a human sacrifice to atone for sin {He died for their sins...}
And there are many other differences...
PS: we can get along as long as the Christian members don't expect us to believe that stuff..
Muman - This post was uncalled for. I do not expect you to accept or even acknowledge the beliefs of the Christian members here. So why would I expect you to believe the stuff. That is not why most Christians participate here. You would love for the Christians to leave this forum, isn't that what you hinted at. Start your own. It seems to me many Christians helped to start this forum. Cross with dead diety. Requiring human sacrifice to atone for sin. Writing that way is meant to be offensive, in a passive agressive way. I'm not attempting to antagonize you...I am speaking up for myself. BullCat
I know that I was raised to respect Judaism. I have great respect for people like Chaim Ben Pesach, David Ben Moshe,Ashe Dina and most of the great JTFers. I believe they care about Israel and America, two countries who's survival are vital to my child's survival. So I will not be silent.
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HZ, Bolshevik Israeli textbooks are naturally going to try to make religious Christians look bad just like they make religious Jews look bad. The only religion they paint in a positive light is Islam.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
as long as no one forces gospel down the throat of my people(hindus) and the people i care(jews), i'm fine with Christian members of JTF.
Who forces the gospel here?
I would never want to be a fellow Christian
there are 1-2 members who support missionising to hindus and hindu nationalists. they are indirectly attacking the largest block of zionists on the planet(hindu nationalists organisaitons). so how can they support an organisaiton like JTF which is open to zionists? you cannot apply two different yardstick to (hindus and jews)zionists. Let me give you an example. Consider some christian member supporting missionising in India. he/she will donate something to the ministry for the same cause. What is the guarentee that this money will be used to convert hindus or convert jews?
I once talked to Yad L'Achim representative. I discussed many issues about missionising/zionism/islam. and we all had similar views and concerns. and the shocking thing was, the same evangelist organisations are working both in India and Israel.
OK I have heard this brought up once to often by you. Lets stop beating around the bush and give up the names of the two proselytizers . Lets get to the bottom of it right here and now. I don't go for the proselytizing myself.
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HZ, Bolshevik Israeli textbooks are naturally going to try to make religious Christians look bad just like they make religious Jews look bad. The only religion they paint in a positive light is Islam.
What do you know about Israel, and about "Bolshevik Israelis"? You have never lived there. I either don't live in Israel, that's why I'm not talking about them. I know the situation only from news. But that is far from the reality.
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I admired the Jewish people, long before I became a born again Christian.
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HZ, Bolshevik Israeli textbooks are naturally going to try to make religious Christians look bad just like they make religious Jews look bad. The only religion they paint in a positive light is Islam.
Odds are you are right and the term is taken from a bolshevik textbook. In Israel we have a strong propaganda against accepting support from any kind of right wing Christians on the pretext that they don't really support Israel but try to either convert the Jews or promote war with the Arabs so that the apocalypse would come. It doesn't matter what they say or do, the bolshevik stick to the claims, while at the same time they have no objections for "aid" by left wing Jew hating organizations.
We also do have extensive missionary activity in Israel by J4J and the likes. The bolsheviks don't speak against these organizations but there are good Jews (mainly Haredi like "Yad Le'Achim") who battle the missionaries (J4J Christians, as well as any other type, like new age cults).
PS the term itself "Neo-Gentile" doesn't make much sense in my mind. If gentile is supposed to mean what in Hebrew we call "goy".
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HZ, Bolshevik Israeli textbooks are naturally going to try to make religious Christians look bad just like they make religious Jews look bad. The only religion they paint in a positive light is Islam.
Odds are you are right and the term is taken from a bolshevik textbook. In Israel we have a strong propaganda against accepting support from any kind of right wing Christians on the pretext that they don't really support Israel but try to either convert the Jews or promote war with the Arabs so that the apocalypse would come. It doesn't matter what they say or do, the bolshevik stick to the claims, while at the same time they have no objections for "aid" by left wing Jew hating organizations.
We also do have extensive missionary activity in Israel by J4J and the likes. The bolsheviks don't speak against these organizations but there are good Jews (mainly Haredi like "Yad Le'Achim") who battle the missionaries (J4J Christians, as well as any other type, like new age cults).
PS the term itself "Neo-Gentile" doesn't make much sense in my mind. If gentile is supposed to mean what in Hebrew we call "goy".
I have never heard the term, but it is clear that Hindu Zionist is referring to people who say offensive things about Jews and then support Israel, only because they believe that the end result will be that all Jews convert to Christianity.
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I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism
but I don't see how gentiles can truly contribute to a Jewish movement whose sole purpose is for the sake of Jews.
Last quote, the way I see it is We have a common enemy so whats good for the Jewish people is good for the Christians and vice versa,remember what satans worshippers said" after Saturday comes Sunday"Alliances are needed although there may differences,remember america financed and armed osamabinlarder against the russians.
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*sings
"When we all get to heaven....."
If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
*sigh* Here we go again, Muman. Again with this divisiveness.
Obviously Christians DO believe that the NT is compatible with Torah if we are biblical Zionists. I had every right to explain why I am a Zionist in response to the OP question.
Is it that hard for you to just leave things alone?
This is fine with me, Muman, that you do this.If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
*sigh* Here we go again, Muman. Again with this divisiveness.
Obviously Christians DO believe that the NT is compatible with Torah if we are biblical Zionists. I had every right to explain why I am a Zionist in response to the OP question.
Is it that hard for you to just leave things alone?
If anyone is trying to infer that I spoke something which is not true then I must protest. Also what I wrote was in direct response to someones post who said that the NT and Christianity is completely compatible with Jewish Torah {which it is obviously not}...
We cannot pretend things which are not true. Scripture has clearly stated that the Jewish people will be elevated when we have complete faith and trust in Hashem, not when we accept help from the nations... It is VERY IMPORTANT that JTF remain closed in deference to Shabbat because it demonstrates the importance for a Jew to observe the Shabbat. Maybe a forum for non-Jews should be set up for their pro-Zionist movement. I think if we are the JEWISH TASK FORCE we should act Jewish. This is the only way I believe we will triumph in the end.
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Do they not want us here?
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
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Do they not want us here?
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
~Hanna~,
Do not think this... Of course we, and I , want you here and all those who share the vision of Jewish Israel...
I am sorry that this thread has gone the way it has...
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Yes, this is the first time I have EVER heard such a term.....I don't get it and especially the "suspecting Jewish people" part.
Alright, now I'm confused. What's a neo-gentile? And what do you mean "suspect Jewish people?"
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ok...
Do they not want us here?
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
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I think, Christians support the JTF because they are flocking to the best organization that opposes "The Islam." They find Jews as a natural ally against the terror.
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I'm going to try to help Hindu Zionist out a little,
I think he meant "respect", not "suspect".
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I believe the Jewish people are our brothers. Zionism makes perfect sense to me.
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
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When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
You're a genius! I couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer the original question, I can only tell you how I feel about it. I believe the Bible when it says that we should bless Israel. I think the Jews do have promises that are made to them by G-d that were never nullified. I think it's important to acknowledge that curses will fall upon those who curse Israel and respond accordingly.
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
However, I'm not here to convert you to anything, I'm not here for selfish reasons. I believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and I admire the Jewish nation even though it is not my own nation. JTF will always focus primarily on Jewish needs and Jewish causes. I am not here primarily to help the USA or Gentiles in any fashion. I'm here to help Jewish people in Israel.
I want the Jewish settlers to win!
WOW, I'm not even going to comment.
-
When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
You're a genius! I couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer the original question, I can only tell you how I feel about it. I believe the Bible when it says that we should bless Israel. I think the Jews do have promises that are made to them by G-d that were never nullified. I think it's important to acknowledge that curses will fall upon those who curse Israel and respond accordingly.
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
However, I'm not here to convert you to anything, I'm not here for selfish reasons. I believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and I admire the Jewish nation even though it is not my own nation. JTF will always focus primarily on Jewish needs and Jewish causes. I am not here primarily to help the USA or Gentiles in any fashion. I'm here to help Jewish people in Israel.
I want the Jewish settlers to win!
WOW, I'm not even going to comment.
Who cares if you do or not
-
When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
You're a genius! I couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer the original question, I can only tell you how I feel about it. I believe the Bible when it says that we should bless Israel. I think the Jews do have promises that are made to them by G-d that were never nullified. I think it's important to acknowledge that curses will fall upon those who curse Israel and respond accordingly.
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
However, I'm not here to convert you to anything, I'm not here for selfish reasons. I believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and I admire the Jewish nation even though it is not my own nation. JTF will always focus primarily on Jewish needs and Jewish causes. I am not here primarily to help the USA or Gentiles in any fashion. I'm here to help Jewish people in Israel.
I want the Jewish settlers to win!
WOW, I'm not even going to comment.
Who cares if you do or not
Clearly you do since you commented.
-
When the fact is, we all already know the differences (at least in general), and none of us is trying to blur those lines here. So it is divisive when people go on the offensive like that. Also there is a defensive posture in some response, along the lines of "you better not proselityze us" which many probably find insulting because everyone here already knows this org. does not allow proselytizing, and people here aren't interested in doing that in the first place.
You're a genius! I couldn't have said it better myself.
To answer the original question, I can only tell you how I feel about it. I believe the Bible when it says that we should bless Israel. I think the Jews do have promises that are made to them by G-d that were never nullified. I think it's important to acknowledge that curses will fall upon those who curse Israel and respond accordingly.
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
However, I'm not here to convert you to anything, I'm not here for selfish reasons. I believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people, and I admire the Jewish nation even though it is not my own nation. JTF will always focus primarily on Jewish needs and Jewish causes. I am not here primarily to help the USA or Gentiles in any fashion. I'm here to help Jewish people in Israel.
I want the Jewish settlers to win!
WOW, I'm not even going to comment.
Who cares if you do or not
Clearly you do since you commented.
Sure glupi magarac
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Me too, I heard about all the stories in the Tanach from when I was a very small child on up until I became a baptized believer (age 11) I was raised going to Sunday School my entire childhood...all the true stories of Adam and Eve, David and Goliah, Moses and Pharoh, David and Jonathan, Joseph and his brothers, Ruth, Deborah, Moab, Solomon, the list goes on and on. My son got an award in Sunday school for being a bible scholar because I worked at an after school learning center that taught the word of God every day (we were there every day for 3 years)...
I admired the Jewish people, long before I became a born again Christian.
-
ok...
Do they not want us here?
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
Why would I still be in this forum if I had a problem with the Christian members??? For your information I had an in depth discussion about Christianity with one of the members of the forums via private message a few weeks ago that lasted at least an hour, maybe two. I had questions and he/she answered them. I won't disclose who this member is, but he/she understood my questions. You can believe what you want about me, because at the end of day, I got some fine answers from this thread and now I have a better understanding.
-
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
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The Jewish people are NEVER going to find a better friend than people like born-again believers, strong and devout Catholics, and people that love the G-D OF ISRAEL.
True that 'in the name of Christianity' atrocities have been committed, but please... Jewish people that are Erav-Rav have *NOT* hurt good G-d fearing Christians??? GIMME A BREAK!
Bolshevik Jews in this administration have TORN APART CHRISTIANS, so NOBODY is damned innocent!
This thread is SICKENING me now, beyond BELIEF.
Never mind all of the "Christianity"
I will know this:
In the N.T., Jesus was a Jew, he read from Torah, he was born in Israel, he was murdered in Israel, and all of my Jewish teachers that I know say, FLAT OUT:
"We don't believe that Jesus is/was the Messiah, but HE WAS ONE OF US"
So, can we stop? OBVIOUSLY the Christian people love a good Jewish teacher. That's all.
(http://firefighterclosecalls.com/images/600px-Stop_sign.gif)
-
Yes...
:clap: :clap: :clap:
-
ok...
Do they not want us here?
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
Why would I still be in this forum if I had a problem with the Christian members??? For your information I had an in depth discussion about Christianity with one of the members of the forums via private message a few weeks ago that lasted at least an hour, maybe two. I had questions and he/she answered them. I won't disclose who this member is, but he/she understood my questions. You can believe what you want about me, because at the end of day, I got some fine answers from this thread and now I have a better understanding.
Yeah... so do I
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
-
Don't duck my question. I asked about what does Christianity say about Jews going to heaven.
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i stand by Mo's and muman's post.. why? i'm not a jew. i'm a hindu. I stand by their views because we are all members of JEWISH task force. Not Neo-Gentile forum. If i'm a true gentile, i will support great jewish friends like muman and mo.
as long as no one forces gospel down the throat of my people(hindus) and the people i care(jews), i'm fine with Christian members of JTF.
Who forces the gospel here?
I would never want to be a fellow Christian
there are 1-2 members who support missionising to hindus and hindu nationalists. they are indirectly attacking the largest block of zionists on the planet(hindu nationalists organisaitons). so how can they support an organisaiton like JTF which is open to zionists? you cannot apply two different yardstick to (hindus and jews)zionists. Let me give you an example. Consider some christian member supporting missionising in India. he/she will donate something to the ministry for the same cause. What is the guarentee that this money will be used to convert hindus or convert jews?
I once talked to Yad L'Achim representative. I discussed many issues about missionising/zionism/islam. and we all had similar views and concerns. and the shocking thing was, the same evangelist organisations are working both in India and Israel.
OK I have heard this brought up once to often by you. Lets stop beating around the bush and give up the names of the two proselytizers . Lets get to the bottom of it right here and now. I don't go for the proselytizing myself.
I guess there are no names to go along with the accusation.
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I think some people just feel really strongly about some issues but this isnt really the place for arguments .... Just for the record - I am not starting an argument ...
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Don't duck my question. I asked about what does Christianity say about Jews going to heaven.
What is there to duck! I was always told Jews are waiting for the Messiah.
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It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
This is my feeling too. I have felt that the forum has, for a while, been leaning towards Yeshiva Judaism (I don't know if this is the correct term), instead of staying with the religious zionism of the Kahanist type. The latter makes Israel its first priority and also prioritizes the ties between Jews and Gentiles. The former is not as committed to Israel (if at all) and is, on the whole, hostile to Christianity and distrustful of the idea of cooperating with pro-Israel Gentiles. I think that because of this drift, the forum has lost some popularity.
-
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
This is my feeling too. I have felt that the forum has, for a while, been leaning towards Yeshiva Judaism (I don't know if this is the correct term), instead of staying with the religious zionism of the Kahanist type. The latter makes Israel its first priority and also prioritizes the ties between Jews and Gentiles. The former is not as committed to Israel (if at all) and is, on the whole, hostile to Christianity and distrustful of the idea of cooperating with pro-Israel Gentiles. I think that because of this drift, the forum has lost some popularity.
Im so sorry you feel like that but that is not what is happening here. I believe that Mo and Myself are as Zionist as any of you are. I don't know how you come to your conclusions.
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It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
This is my feeling too. I have felt that the forum has, for a while, been leaning towards Yeshiva Judaism (I don't know if this is the correct term), instead of staying with the religious zionism of the Kahanist type. The latter makes Israel its first priority and also prioritizes the ties between Jews and Gentiles. The former is not as committed to Israel (if at all) and is, on the whole, hostile to Christianity and distrustful of the idea of cooperating with pro-Israel Gentiles. I think that because of this drift, the forum has lost some popularity.
I think that statement is not true at all. There are plenty of haredim who cooperate with Christians. When the Pope visited the Kotel, he was accompanied by haredim. There are also some people who identify as Kahanists who are against cooperating with Christians, such as the people on the now-defunct revava forum. Personally, I think that we should cooperate with Christians who support Israel as long as they don't prosletyze (which nobody on this forum does).
-
It makes me sad that Mo was implying he basically doesn't care what happens to Christians. Christians are being murdered and dying in various places in the world due to persecutions, and for him to have no empathy with that really does irritate me. That's what I got out of his post that said he would never join a movement to help non-Jews.
I don't think Mo2388 meant to say that he doesn't care about bad things happening to Christians.
Yes, Lisa. My issue with Mo and Muman goes to the fact that they have problem with the Christian members on this forum, most who have been here way before they arrived. They can't deny what is quite obvious by the patterns in their posts. I will never believe that Mo was just asking an innocent question and we all know that Muman has big issues with Christianity( and the fact that Christian live and breathe).
This is my feeling too. I have felt that the forum has, for a while, been leaning towards Yeshiva Judaism (I don't know if this is the correct term), instead of staying with the religious zionism of the Kahanist type. The latter makes Israel its first priority and also prioritizes the ties between Jews and Gentiles. The former is not as committed to Israel (if at all) and is, on the whole, hostile to Christianity and distrustful of the idea of cooperating with pro-Israel Gentiles. I think that because of this drift, the forum has lost some popularity.
Im so sorry you feel like that but that is not what is happening here. I believe that Mo and Myself are as Zionist as any of you are. I don't know how you come to your conclusions.
Maybe even more so. Think about like this. The basis of Israel being the Jewish homeland comes from the Torah. That same Torah has 613 commandments. You can't just believe one thing the Torah says and not the other things. Hashem gave Israel to the Jews. He gave the Torah to the Jews. You can't take one and ignore the other. The ultimate dream is to learn Torah in Eretz Yisrael. I had the zechus of doing so on 2 separate half-year occasions, and there is nothing like it. It's no secret that I and (a few others not to name names) are orthodox Jews. Therefore, as Zionists AND Kahanists on top of that, we have a lot on our plate. There is ONE GOAL. Follow Hashem's Torah. Orthodox, Kahanist, Jews must focus on the land of Israel and observing the ENTIRE Torah.
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The Jewish people are NEVER going to find a better friend than people like born-again believers, strong and devout Catholics, and people that love the G-D OF ISRAEL.
True that 'in the name of Christianity' atrocities have been committed, but please... Jewish people that are Erav-Rav have *NOT* hurt good G-d fearing Christians??? GIMME A BREAK!
Bolshevik Jews in this administration have TORN APART CHRISTIANS, so NOBODY is damned innocent!
This thread is SICKENING me now, beyond BELIEF.
Never mind all of the "Christianity"
I will know this:
In the N.T., Jesus was a Jew, he read from Torah, he was born in Israel, he was murdered in Israel, and all of my Jewish teachers that I know say, FLAT OUT:
"We don't believe that Jesus is/was the Messiah, but HE WAS ONE OF US"
So, can we stop? OBVIOUSLY the Christian people love a good Jewish teacher. That's all.
(http://firefighterclosecalls.com/images/600px-Stop_sign.gif)
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
-
I would like to hear Chaim's response to this topic.
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
-
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
You mean it's very possible that YOU and I may say something that gets misinterpreted? :disease:
-
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
You mean it's very possible that YOU and I may say something that gets misinterpreted? :disease:
No you think glup
-
<snip>
You mean it's very possible that YOU and I may say something that gets misinterpreted? :disease:
I think that we should leave the General Discussion forum for non-religious issues... We can post our Jewish thoughts in the Jewish section.
When we discuss other religions it often borders on proselytizing... And other non-Judaic religions {such as our Hindu members} may feel a need to explain their religious beliefs. If this happens we have a greater chance of becoming fragmented... This is just my opinion...
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
You mean it's very possible that YOU and I may say something that gets misinterpreted? :disease:
No you think glup
What's your problem?
-
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
You mean it's very possible that YOU and I may say something that gets misinterpreted? :disease:
No you think glup
What's your problem?
You
-
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
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AH seems to have glup on the mind...
:::D
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AH seems to have glup on the mind...
:::D
Jako smiješno krava
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
My question was based on that answer.
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<snip>
I did you have a problem with it?
I think what Mo is asking is who was saying that a Jew should worry about Christian religion? That is not what the topic was... What the question was concerning is what motivates a Christian to support the Jewish cause...
I regret having made the comment that our religions are not the same and pointed out some of the differences, though I did not impune those beliefs. Long story short we have wasted a good amount of time on a non-issue... And we are fighting between ourselves...
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AH seems to have glup on the mind...
:::D
Jako smiješno krava
Very funny cows? Who are you calling a cow?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#sr|en|Jako smiješno krava (http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#sr|en|Jako smiješno krava)
מְשׁוּגָע תַחַת
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<snip>
I did you have a problem with it?
I think what Mo is asking is who was saying that a Jew should worry about Christian religion? That is not what the topic was... What the question was concerning is what motivates a Christian to support the Jewish cause...
I regret having made the comment that our religions are not the same and pointed out some of the differences, though I did not impune those beliefs. Long story short we have wasted a good amount of time on a non-issue... And we are fighting between ourselves...
Right, but what I meant was that if a Jew has a question about Christianity, according to that response he posted, Jews shouldn't focus on that.
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
My question was based on that answer.
It really is a very simple answer.
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
CJD is right. It is one thing to learn about another religion. It's another to be bothered by those religious beliefs to the point where it interferes with your own faith.
-
AH seems to have glup on the mind...
:::D
Jako smiješno krava
Very funny cows? Who are you calling a cow?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#sr|en|Jako smiješno krava (http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#sr|en|Jako smiješno krava)
מְשׁוּגָע תַחַת
Probably me...I've put on a few pounds. :::D
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
The reason I wouldn't join any forum not based on Judaism is because that's anti-religious. What would be my motive for joining one? And no, I didn't think people would misunderstand to the point of insanity. If I were hypothetically a member of a Christian Zionist movement, wouldn't somebody ask me how I can contribute to the movement if I were an Orthodox Jew? The goal of JTF members is the same in the sense we are all anti-islam and pro-Israel, but I just wanted to know Christian reasons for supporting a Jewish movement with that ULTIMATE goal in mind.
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
CJD is right. It is one thing to learn about another religion. It's another to be bothered by those religious beliefs to the point where it interferes with your own faith.
Chas V'shalom. But based on that answer above (about Jews shouldn't concerning themselves with Christianity etc.) I asked if we could learn about religions. The answer I was given was yes, but according to the statement I quoted, it doesn't include permission to do so for educational purposes.
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The Jewish people are NEVER going to find a better friend than people like born-again believers, strong and devout Catholics, and people that love the G-D OF ISRAEL.
True that 'in the name of Christianity' atrocities have been committed, but please... Jewish people that are Erav-Rav have *NOT* hurt good G-d fearing Christians??? GIMME A BREAK!
Bolshevik Jews in this administration have TORN APART CHRISTIANS, so NOBODY is damned innocent!
This thread is SICKENING me now, beyond BELIEF.
Never mind all of the "Christianity"
I will know this:
In the N.T., Jesus was a Jew, he read from Torah, he was born in Israel, he was murdered in Israel, and all of my Jewish teachers that I know say, FLAT OUT:
"We don't believe that Jesus is/was the Messiah, but HE WAS ONE OF US"
So, can we stop? OBVIOUSLY the Christian people love a good Jewish teacher. That's all.
(http://firefighterclosecalls.com/images/600px-Stop_sign.gif)
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
I don't have a problem if you ask, but are these kind of discussions even allowed here?
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I was not offended by your OP, Mo, but a couple responses within this thread were not called for.
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?
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This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.
We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.
Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.
Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None
So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that. It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism. What's wrong with that?
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ. Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"
Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
CJD is right. It is one thing to learn about another religion. It's another to be bothered by those religious beliefs to the point where it interferes with your own faith.
Chas V'shalom. But based on that answer above (about Jews shouldn't concerning themselves with Christianity etc.) I asked if we could learn about religions. The answer I was given was yes, but according to the statement I quoted, it doesn't include permission to do so for educational purposes.
No I never said that. Learning is fine but the student needs to be able to deal with the lesson.
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<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?
At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...
We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...
My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.
I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...
It was acceptable response the first time around but I don't think he intended it to be a thing to hide behind.
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?
I would do whatever the Halacha tells me to do in that situation. If Halacha says I have to, then I would. If it says not to, then I wouldn't.
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A major part of the success of the Jewish Defense League under the leadership of Rabbi Meir Kahane and Chaim is that Jews and Righteous Gentiles worked together. The end result is more than 1 million Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union.
The foundation of JTF is the principles of the late and great Rabbi and Chaim from their JDL days. All of us can make this a better world by working with each other and respecting each other. My take is that it's both a responsibility and a privilege for Jews and Righteous Gentiles to try to help each other. In my opinion, our combined efforts should be on defeating liberalism and Islam, not questioning the motives of people who are putting time and effort to help save the United States, Israel, and Western Civilization.
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?
I would do whatever the Halacha tells me to do in that situation. If Halacha says I have to, then I would. If it says not to, then I wouldn't.
Isn't Halacha written in stone there should be a firm answer.
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I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.
I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.
Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?
Shalom Boyana,
In general I would do whatever I can do to help any people who are righteous {in the eyes of our Torah} from suffering.
For example I have contributed to organizations which help the hungry, of all religions, all around the world. But I also dedicate a certain amount of my charity to exclusively Jewish organizations...
Jewish belief mandates that we look at all of humanity as part of Hashems creation and as a result a manifestation of his awesome kindness.
But a Jew must not learn the ways of the nations... Once this happens assimilation is the next logical step and this has been demonstrated generation after generation...
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If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.
Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.
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If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.
Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.
All I said was that if I was permitted to do it, I would. Why would I think non-Jews are animals?
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<snip>
Isn't Halacha written in stone there should be a firm answer.
Actually Halacha is not clear on this issue...
Some poskin that we should save the life of a non-Jew on Shabbat while others decide otherwise...
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If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.
Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.
Yeah, Im such a bad Jew... RS....
I have never said anything other than wishing ann coulter a stay in gehinnom for her insult to Judaism... And you consider me your enemy?
Unbelievable...
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This thread is leading nowhere
Just lock it
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This thread is leading nowhere
Just lock it
Smart thinking
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http://vbm-torah.org/archive/modern/03modern.htm
MODERN RABBINIC THOUGHT
Shiur #03: R. Lipshutz's Attitude towards Non-Jews
By Rav Yitzchak Blau
While the Torah's ritual law applies mostly in an exclusively Jewish context, ethical obligations bear a more universal quality. Pirkei Avot, a tractate dedicated primarily to ethical responsibilities, thus may address the gentile world as well; ethical maxims in Avot might provide guidance for non–Jews along with Jews. Additionally, the ethical demands made upon Jews can also apply to their social interaction with gentiles. No rabbinic commentator developed this theme as extensively as R. Lipschutz.
Some background will provide a linguistic frame of reference for R. Lipshutz's comments. R. Shimon bar Yochai taught that non-Jewish cadavers do not convey ritual impurity to other items or people located in the same building with them (tumat ohel). The biblical verse about cadavers conveying impurity in this manner speaks of "adam" (Bamidbar 19:14), a term that excludes gentiles. The Rabbis, however, disagree with R. Shimon (Yevamot 61a).
Why does R. Shimon think that the term "adam" excludes gentiles? R. Zvi Hirsch Chajes offers the simplest explanation. Obviously, non-Jews are people just as Jews are. However, the Jewish legal code addresses the Jewish people, so it employs "adam" in a more restricted sense. In the same way, a teacher might use the term "everyone" but only refer to the students in that class and not those in other classes or outside the school altogether.
Tosafot (s.v. ve-ain) point out a contradictory passage. The gemara (Sanhedrin 59a) states that a gentile who studies Torah is like the High Priest because the verse refers to "ha-adam," a term that includes non-Jews. Rabbenu Tam suggests that the term "ha-adam" includes gentiles, whereas the term "adam" excludes them. These semantic issues will help us understand R. Lipshutz’s commentary.
Hillel said that one should love "ha-beriyot" (Avot 1:12). R. Lipshutz suggests that the term "ha-beriyot" encompasses more than the term "adam"; it includes non-Jews along with Jews. It also instructs the teacher to speak compassionately towards the weaker students in his class. Hillel advises us to adopt a loving posture towards every person we encounter (Yakhin, Avot 1:46).
Shammai stated that a person should greet "et kol ha-adam" with a friendly countenance (Avot 1:15). Basing himself on Rabbenu Tam’s distinction, R. Lipshutz suggests that Shammai employed the term "ha-adam" to include all - rich and poor, Jew and gentile (Yakhin, Avot 1:59). According to R. Lipshutz, the long-term rivals, Shammai and Hillel, both agreed that non–Jews deserve friendly treatment, either love or at least a pleasant greeting.
Adopting Rabbenu Tam’s distinction may cause difficulty with a later mishna. R. Akiva taught: "Beloved is man (adam), who was created in the image of G-d. An extra love was made known to him that he was created in the image if G-d, as it says, 'He made man in the image of G-d' (Beresihit 9:6).” Since R. Akiva says uses the phrase "adam," one might suggest that he speaks only about Jews. Yet we normally assume that G-d created all of humanity in His image. R. Lipshutz says that the correct text for this mishna should read "ha-adam," as gentiles are clearly included. The next line of the same mishna says, "Beloved is Israel," indicating that the previous line referred to a different and broader group. R. Akiva cites a verse spoken by G-d immediately after the flood, when He addresses humanity as a whole, and not Jews alone.
Yehoshua lowered the hanging bodies of the king of Ai and of the five Canaanite kings before nightfall (Yehoshua 8:29, 10:26). The prohibition not to leave bodies hanging overnight stems from the fact that those bodies belong to beings created in the image of G-d; this example indicates that gentiles also bear the divine image (Yakhin, Avot 3:88).
R. Lipshutz's Boaz commentary on this mishna (Avot 3:1) includes one of the most remarkable rabbinic passages on this issues. He questions R. Shimon’s statement that the term "adam" excludes gentiles: could R. Shimon possibly think that gentiles are comparable to animals? The Jewish people's status as a "treasure among the nations" (Shemot 19:5) would be meaningless if the other nations did not have significant worth. Furthermore, animals do not receive reward and punishment, but pious gentiles enter the world–to-come (Sanhedrin 105a). Obviously, R. Shimon would not equate gentiles with animals.
Paraphrase does not do justice to the following section, so I will translate an extended section of R. Lipshutz's commentary.
Even without the holy words of our sages who told us this [i.e., that pious gentiles merit olam ha-ba], we would know this from our intellect because “G-d is just in all His ways and benevolent in all His deeds.” We see that many pious gentiles recognize the Creator, believe in the divinity of Scripture, act compassionately toward Israel, and some have done great things for entire world. The pious [Edward] Jenner invented the vaccine that saves tens of thousands of people from disease [namely, smallpox], death and disability. [Sir Francis] Drake brought the potato to Europe, which has prevented famine on several occasions. [Johannes] Guttenberg invented the printing press.
Some of them never received their reward in this world, like the pious [Johannes] Reuchlin who risked his life to prevent the burning of the Talmud, which had been commanded by Emperor Maximilian in 1509 due to the incitement of the apostate [Johann] Pfefferkorn, who made an evil accord with the priests. Reuchlin exerted every effort to oppose this and convinced the Emperor to retract this decree. Due to this, his enemies the priests pursued him and made his life bitter until he died under pressure with a broken heart.
Could you imagine that these great deeds will not be rewarded in olam ha-ba? G-d does not withhold the reward of any creature. Even if you say that these pious ones who keep the seven Noachide commandments would not have the status of a ger toshav (resident alien) because they never made a formal acceptance before a court or because we do not accept gerei toshav in our day, since they do not act like Esau, they have a portion in olam ha-ba.
R. Lipshutz's sense of divine justice emerges quite powerfully from this selection. Decent people who did great things for humanity surely receive eternal reward. It is inconceivable that technicalities regarding the formal acceptance of resident aliens could hold back such reward from the deserving.
His universalistic orientation also emerges clearly. There are gentiles of outstanding character and achievement, and there is no reason to deny this truth. Note further that the good deeds listed extend far beyond being kind to the Jewish community; saving gentiles from disease or famine also commands great respect. This, too, reflects a more universalistic orientation.
The question regarding R. Shimon's statement thus remains in effect. R. Lipshutz explains that Jews and gentiles each have an advantage. Israel's advantage is the unique divine revelation bestowed upon them. Human intellect can achieve great things, but it can not match the supernal wisdom of the Torah. Conversely, gentile achievements in ethics and religion are purely the products of their own free choices and their own efforts.
This distinction mirrors the difference between the first man and subsequent generations. Human beings enter the world as little babies who need to struggle to learn new skills. In contrast, Adam was created as a fully formed adult. Thus, the term "adam" refers to those whom G-d raised up to a higher level; this is why R. Shimon said that it only encompasses Jews, the beneficiaries of revelation. "Ha-adam" cannot be talking about a particular person, because we do not employ the definitive article when referring to a specific person. This term has the broader meaning of humanity and, of course, it includes gentiles.
The above reveals R. Lipshutz's positive orientation towards the best of the non–Jewish world. He reads R. Shimon’s statement in a way that does not insult that world. More strikingly, he states that our great advantage of revelation carries with it implications beyond the advantages. It implies that the gentiles deserve special credit for their accomplishments absent the supreme advantage of revelation.
Another mishna in Avot strengthens this point. R. Elazar ben Azariah taught: "If there is no Torah, there is no decency" (Avot 3:17). One could read this line as suggesting that decent behavior does not exist outside the community of observant Jews. As we have already seen, R. Lipshutz contends that reality belies such a reading. Here, too, he points out that there are pious and moral gentiles who do not observe the six hundred and thirteen commandments. He argues that "Torah" in this mishna means belief in revelation, reward and punishment, and immortality. Decent gentiles share these beliefs even if they do not put on tefillin or keep Shabbat. In this sense, such people have Torah and can have moral decency (Yakhin, Avot 3:114).
Even the above formulation does not account for ethically sensitive secularists, and were R. Lipshutz still alive, we would have to ask him about this. Leaving this question aside, we can identify further confirmation of his attitude towards the broader world, as two more sources outside of Avot provide more evidence about R. Lipshutz's worldview.
A Jew whose ox gores the ox of a gentile is exempt from paying damages (Bava Kama 4:3). This leads to two ethical questions. Why does a Jew have more financial responsibility when his ox damages the ox of another Jew? Where is the fairness of the above ruling, given that we charge the gentile when his ox gores that belonging to the Jew? R. Lipshutz argues that rational morality would not clearly obligate the ox’s owner for damages committed by his ox in any situation, as the causal relationship between the owner and the damages is weak (Yakhin, Bava Kama 4:16). This reflects a common strategy to explain halakhic discrepancies between treatment of Jews and gentiles. The Torah demands basic moral treatment for all, but commands that we go beyond the norm for fellow Jews.
Such an approach may explain why the prohibition of lending money with interest applies only to other Jews. Interest is rationally defensible, as having money for a period of time truly is worth money, but the Torah demands that we go one step further for our brethren. R. Lipshutz adopts a similar approach regarding responsibilities for damages cause by a person's animal.
Why are gentiles responsible for the damages caused by their animals? R. Lipshutz echoes Rambam's explanation (Hilkhot Nizkei Mamon 8:5). Since Torah law does not apply to them, they have no incentive to watch their animals; if we did not impose liability upon them, society would suffer (Yakhin, Bava Kama 4:17). In other words, Jews must watch their animals whether or not they will be held liable if their ox gores a gentile ox. This is not the case for gentiles, so Halakha makes them liable.
In the Boaz section of the commentary (Boaz, Bava Kama 4:1), R. Lipshutz emphasizes the prohibition of theft from a non–Jew and of retaining money mistakenly given to us by a gentile. He cites the Be'er ha-Golah of R. Moshe Rivkes (Choshen Mishpat 348) that no good comes from those who take advantage of the monetary mistakes of gentiles. On the contrary, those who return mistaken money sanctify the name of G-d and will find greater business success as well. R. Lipshutz adds that the two hundred years between R. Rivkes and himself have only strengthened that point. Our "brethren among the nations" accept monotheism, recognize the sanctity of scripture, observe the Noachide laws, protect Jews, and support the Jewish poor. How can we behave towards them in an ungrateful fashion? R. Lipshutz appreciates the benefits that modernity bestowed upon the Jews and contends that these benefits demand more scrupulous honesty in our business transactions with the broader world.
A mishna in Sanhedrin (10:1) famously states that all Jews have a portion in the world–to–come, with a handful of exceptions. What about gentiles? The Rambam rules that the pious among the nations also achieve this exalted state (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Teshuva 3:5). In theory, this entry might be restricted to a very small group. R. Lipshutz infers, however, from the mishna's specific exclusion of Bilaam that even the average among the gentiles makes it to olam ha-ba. The gemara (Sanhedrin 105a) utilized the exclusion of Bilaam to infer that some non –Jews make it. R. Lipshutz takes this further and contends that a significant portion of them make it (Yakhin, Sanhedrin 10:2).
Interestingly, in the same commentary R. Lipschutz goes on to posit an inherent difference between Jew and gentile. Wicked gentiles receive their punishment and are destined to extinction. Jews who have committed serious crimes also receive punishments, but their upper soul remains and returns to the proximity of G-d. Apparently, a rabbinic thinker can believe in some intrinsic difference between Jew and gentile, and yet adopt a positive orientation towards the non–Jewish world. R. Avraham Yitzchak ha-Kohen Kook represents another example of this phenomenon, although the degree of difference between peoples is far more pronounced in his thought than in that of R. Lipshutz.
The growing rights that emancipation granted Jews probably influenced R. Lipshutz's thought. While anti– Semitism certainly lived on well into the nineteenth century, gratitude for decent treatment afforded by gentiles is morally obligatory. As mentioned in earlier lectures, R. Lipshutz saw value in secular studies, another point related to one's orientation towards non–Jews. If you view the non–Jewish world as decent, you are more likely to be interested in their ideas. Conversely, if you find their ideas profound, you are more likely to see the people themselves as decent. R. Lipshutz represents a powerful voice in our tradition for recognizing the decency in gentile society and the important ideas in their intellectual world.
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If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.
Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.
Everybody has a soul. Hashem breathed into man. That breath is a soul. Don't blame me for false information.
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I will lock this thread as AH and Mord suggested...
As I said before, there is much room for misunderstanding here...
Thank you
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No I have one more post to make in this topic before it gets locked. Muman or Mo, you two are not my enemies int he sense of Muslim terrorists or other truly evil people. If your lives were in danger, I would help you. I don't hate either of you. It's just hard to be around people who constantly say things that seem meant to provoke.
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"You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22 NKJV).
There's a theological basis for why a Christian would care about Jews and, by extension, Israel. From Genesis to Revelation, it's in their Bible.
Now, as is the traditional Jewish custom, I'll answer this question with a question: How is this relevant to our cause?
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You guys,
I just want to step in and defend Mo2388 here. I don't think he meant any disrespect by asking what he did initially. I write this because I've never had a problem with any of his previous posts.
With the exception of some of the New York JTF people, many of us have never met each other face to face. So the only thing we have to go by is whatever is typed on this board. On the other hand, when you're speaking with someone in person, their facial expression, their tone of voice and their body language are truer indications of where they're coming from.
Now some of you took offense when he posted that he's only involved in religious Jewish organizations. But for the wonderful Christians here, I wouldn't take it personally. As a group, we Jews tend to worry A LOT! It's the same with lots of individual Jews as well. We worry about causing anti-semitism, assimilation, and getting blamed when things go wrong.
For example, I publish (or used to publish, since I haven't updated the content in a while) two blogs under pseudonyms. My family regularly warns me against it, saying that as a Jew, I'm playing with fire.
Also, one of my brothers in law believes that Jews in America shouldn't vote. (Now I know that Chaim would say they shouldn't be in America in the first place.) He believes that if a certain candidate were to become President without getting any, or very little of the Jewish vote, it would lead him to resent all American Jews. Likewise, if a candidate lost a presidential election with very little or no Jewish votes, it would also cause resentment of Jews.
Anyway, I don't mean to ramble on here. I just want to give you some insight into how Jews think and why they keep to themselves. It has nothing to do with hating gentiles.
So going forward, let's focus on the things we have in common, rather than how we differ. OK?