JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Aces High on September 28, 2009, 09:15:03 PM
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Netenyahu's Speech- He said that there should be a demilitarized Palestinian State.
How could this have been such a good speech, when he said that?
It's a bunch a crap speech!
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It's a bunch a crap speech!
Exactly.
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What an a**clown. To think that there are still people in Israel that consider him a "rightist" nauseates me.
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I disagree with all of you...
I applaud bibis speech. It took a lot of strength to get up there and put the UN in its place. He shamed them and showed them how unfair the UN is, while standing in the UN general assembly. I saw the speech and still think he did an A+ job. Everyone, including the middle-center Jews at my YK services all agreed it was an excellent speech. I am ashamed that I am associated with a group of people who are so negative.
Bibis speech was exceptional and will go down in history as the first time a Jewish leader stood up for his own people, against evil the likes of which the world has not seen for over 60 years... He deserves a medal...
Shame on all who don't see the good of what Bibi did. My rabbi told a story about how the Lubavitch Rabbi had a meeting with Bibi over 30 years ago at 770 just before his Vort...The Rebbe gave him advice about how to be a Jew in the UN and pointed out the evil which the UN represents. I believe {according to my Rabbis story who was there at the time} that Bibi mentioned his meeting with the Rebbe.
This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept. They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east... The fact that he stands up against Iran and Venezuela and Libya is monumental and should be applauded.
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I disagree with all of you...
I applaud bibis speech. It took a lot of strength to get up there and put the UN in its place. He shamed them and showed them how unfair the UN is, while standing in the UN general assembly. I saw the speech and still think he did an A+ job. Everyone, including the middle-center Jews at my YK services all agreed it was an excellent speech. I am ashamed that I am associated with a group of people who are so negative.
Bibis speech was exceptional and will go down in history as the first time a Jewish leader stood up for his own people, against evil the likes of which the world has not seen for over 60 years... He deserves a medal...
Shame on all who don't see the good of what Bibi did. My rabbi told a story about how the Lubavitch Rabbi had a meeting with Bibi over 30 years ago at 770 just before his Vort...The Rebbe gave him advice about how to be a Jew in the UN and pointed out the evil which the UN represents. I believe {according to my Rabbis story who was there at the time} that Bibi mentioned his meeting with the Rebbe.
This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept. They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east... The fact that he stands up against Iran and Venezuela and Libya is monumental and should be applauded.
Yeah and why is Lewinsky dismantling Jewish outposts like there is no tomorrow?
This is pure bluster to mollify the Israeli right--nothing less and nothing more.
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<snip>
Yeah and why is Lewinsky dismantling Jewish outposts like there is no tomorrow?
This is pure bluster to mollify the Israeli right--nothing less and nothing more.
One problem at a time... The issue of settlements is sad but this is not a reason to put down Bibi in the face of the world..
PS: I think that the tide is turning more to the right in Israeli politics... Just judging from the Israelis I talk to {who used to be center-left}...
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The problem is that the right in Israel has false leaders--the Yesha council, Likud, Netanyahu, Mike Guzofsky, etc. All of these are frauds of the worst possible kind. Not nearly enough Israeli rightists know Hayamin and how to get involved with it.
Arutz Sheva isn't bad, but doesn't go far enough.
So, Lewinsky will continue to say all the right things, and then proceed to do everything Holemert did.
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Here is info about Bibis meeting with the Lubavitch Rebbe:
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=5534
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The problem is that the right in Israel has false leaders--the Yesha council, Likud, Netanyahu, Mike Guzofsky, etc. All of these are frauds of the worst possible kind. Not nearly enough Israeli rightists know Hayamin and how to get involved with it.
Arutz Sheva isn't bad, but doesn't go far enough.
So, Lewinsky will continue to say all the right things, and then proceed to do everything Holemert did.
LOL, Mike Guzofsky is not a recognized leader. Nobody in Israel knows about him. I first heard about that man at this site :)
As for the Netanyahu's speech, it sounded very persuading and was good tactically (pushing the ball to Fakestinian side and implying we want peace and they don't), but strategically it was still a fault - Netanyahu once again recognized the "necessity" to cede a certain part of the Land of Israel.
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ahhh Netanyahu is too confusing for me.
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Sounds to me he is recognising an Unarmed "Fakeinstine State". How about he makes a speech saying that were kicking all Arabs out of Israel and expanding our boarders. He will be hated throughout the world but Israel will love him. Israel needs to be respected across the world, love comes next. :fist: :fist: :fist:
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I disagree with all of you...
I applaud bibis speech. It took a lot of strength to get up there and put the UN in its place. He shamed them and showed them how unfair the UN is, while standing in the UN general assembly. I saw the speech and still think he did an A+ job. Everyone, including the middle-center Jews at my YK services all agreed it was an excellent speech. I am ashamed that I am associated with a group of people who are so negative.
Bibis speech was exceptional and will go down in history as the first time a Jewish leader stood up for his own people, against evil the likes of which the world has not seen for over 60 years... He deserves a medal...
Shame on all who don't see the good of what Bibi did. My rabbi told a story about how the Lubavitch Rabbi had a meeting with Bibi over 30 years ago at 770 just before his Vort...The Rebbe gave him advice about how to be a Jew in the UN and pointed out the evil which the UN represents. I believe {according to my Rabbis story who was there at the time} that Bibi mentioned his meeting with the Rebbe.
Listen Muman, I also like Bibi (a little bit), and I think in some ways he did a great thing, and he also is less of a selfhating Jew than others we've seen, no question. And not everything he says or does is wrong. He's generally a proud Israeli Jew.
But come on, he's no Begin. And even if he was, he makes a serious mistake by agreeing to the concept of a Fakestinian state. And as great as begin was, he also made critical errors as PM, and it's okay to criticize for him even while acknowledging his overall greatness as a man. And yet bibi doesn't even come close to Begin!
If he really had convictions against the Fakestinian state, he could say no. Just as he is proving by pointing out UN hypocrisy, pointing the finger at Iran, stating Jewish rights to areas of land in Eretz Yisrael... he does those things well, and many other Jewish leaders wouldn't dare. And look, people respect him for it and applaud. He could just as easily extend it to the Fakestinian state concept but he chooses not to because he does not have enough conviction for that. Or he doesn't care. Or he is in for the money. Whatever the reason. He could defy in that regard too, but he makes an active choice not to. It is wrong in every way and anti-Kahanist in every way.
This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept.
That's part of the problem. Because it won't be a demilitarized state, it will be a regular one. It's a "demand" right now, but bibi has made it the Jewish 'starting position.' You must realize muman, how negotiations work. As past precedent shows us, the Jewish starting position is negotiated, and erodes to something more of a compromise, while the Arab position never changes. So Bibi is giving them that first step by committing to a state. They will eventually finagle their way to a regular state, which the rest of the world will say we cannot deny them, and either bibi or some future leaders will cave in with that. They will say 'how can you demand them to be demilitarized? They have a right to defend themselves. No state works demilitarized" - it's what they will say, and Bibi or someone else will cave.
Bibi made a historic mistake with his groundmaking decision to endorse officially the concept of a Fakestinian state. No Likud leader did such a selfhating thing in the UN before. Sharon was the first so-called rightist to state his approval or openness to the idea. But no one made such a bold pronouncement of national policy like Bibi did. This is atrocious.
They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east...
So? That doesn't mean we should give them the first steps to eliminating it, G-d forbid.
The fact that he stands up against Iran and Venezuela and Libya is monumental and should be applauded.
Alright, but that doesn't excuse other mistakes he might make.
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I agree that he is making mistakes. Let us work with him rather than against him. This is my hope and my prayer. He is making steps in the right direction. I do hope that his positions on settlements and growth will change. I said this to my friends at Yom Kippur. Many of the students at the shul/school I went to were of Persian descent. Their opinions on the topic were very interesting. I think it was wonderful that just about everyone agreed that this was a good step. They are very fearful of repurcussions from the Iranian midget Amadinajad. Their families are well-off Jews in Iran and they fear losing all their possesions to any anger he may carry out against the Persian Jewish community.
While the Kahanist position is indeed what I believe is the best. I also understand that the evolution of Israeli thought is edging closer to the right. I think that the day may come when Chaim may be able to go to Israel and actually make a change in the system.
I hope that this time comes sooner rather than later...
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There are some Jews who they are so perturbed and so disgusted by the antics of the likes of Olmert, Livni etc, that something like what Bibi did is such a breath of fresh air that they cannot see what kind of damage he is ALSO doing aside from his good points. And the fact that he is more open to hearing what the rabbis have to say and dealing with them diplomatically and respectfully, many religious Jews want to imagine that he's a great guy because of that. Yeah, in a way, it makes him better than an Olmert or a Barak. But there's no reason to get all excited and flattered as if he's a big Jewish hero because of it. On the one hand it could just be a front, or a show of some kind, or it could be because he doesn't want to appear a certain way. But even if it is honest, we should demand this of Jewish leaders that they respect rabbis and deal with them courteously. That should be the starting point for any decent person. So great, he's decent. Now what is he doing as prime minister? Endorsing a fakestinian state is not ok.
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They are very fearful of repurcussions from the Iranian midget Amadinajad. Their families are well-off Jews in Iran and they fear losing all their possesions to any anger he may carry out against the Persian Jewish community.
I mean gee, at some point, what is more important, the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews who are threatened by the midgets nukes, or the reprisals that rich Persian Jews who refuse to leave galut might face if Israel decides to defend itself against the threat...
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Netenyahu made a world class speech at the U.N. I honestly believe he was one of the best speakers there. What he had to say was very valid and he should be respected for speaking out so plainly in a hostile venue. Israels position is not a comfortable one and decisions Netenyahu needs to make have major implications. I think he is trying to exhaust every diplomatic avenue before having to resort to stronger action. I really believe that the settlement issue is something that has been decided in principal many moons ago and even if Netenyahu disagrees with what has been decided he really can't put a halt to it. He may only be able to slow it down some.
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They are very fearful of repurcussions from the Iranian midget Amadinajad. Their families are well-off Jews in Iran and they fear losing all their possesions to any anger he may carry out against the Persian Jewish community.
I mean gee, at some point, what is more important, the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews who are threatened by the midgets nukes, or the reprisals that rich Persian Jews who refuse to leave galut might face if Israel decides to defend itself against the threat...
Obviously I agree... But my point is that there is a dilemma. It is not a simple decision to pick up from where you are doing well and leave to a new place. We realize this was the request Hashem asked from Abraham to "Go for yourself" Lech Lecha to the land which he promised. It is indeed a test and one which is not easy to overcome.
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I disagree with all of you...
I applaud bibis speech. It took a lot of strength to get up there and put the UN in its place. He shamed them and showed them how unfair the UN is, while standing in the UN general assembly. I saw the speech and still think he did an A+ job. Everyone, including the middle-center Jews at my YK services all agreed it was an excellent speech. I am ashamed that I am associated with a group of people who are so negative.
Bibis speech was exceptional and will go down in history as the first time a Jewish leader stood up for his own people, against evil the likes of which the world has not seen for over 60 years... He deserves a medal...
Shame on all who don't see the good of what Bibi did. My rabbi told a story about how the Lubavitch Rabbi had a meeting with Bibi over 30 years ago at 770 just before his Vort...The Rebbe gave him advice about how to be a Jew in the UN and pointed out the evil which the UN represents. I believe {according to my Rabbis story who was there at the time} that Bibi mentioned his meeting with the Rebbe.
Listen Muman, I also like Bibi (a little bit), and I think in some ways he did a great thing, and he also is less of a selfhating Jew than others we've seen, no question. And not everything he says or does is wrong. He's generally a proud Israeli Jew.
But come on, he's no Begin. And even if he was, he makes a serious mistake by agreeing to the concept of a Fakestinian state. And as great as begin was, he also made critical errors as PM, and it's okay to criticize for him even while acknowledging his overall greatness as a man. And yet bibi doesn't even come close to Begin!
If he really had convictions against the Fakestinian state, he could say no. Just as he is proving by pointing out UN hypocrisy, pointing the finger at Iran, stating Jewish rights to areas of land in Eretz Yisrael... he does those things well, and many other Jewish leaders wouldn't dare. And look, people respect him for it and applaud. He could just as easily extend it to the Fakestinian state concept but he chooses not to because he does not have enough conviction for that. Or he doesn't care. Or he is in for the money. Whatever the reason. He could defy in that regard too, but he makes an active choice not to. It is wrong in every way and anti-Kahanist in every way.
This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept.
That's part of the problem. Because it won't be a demilitarized state, it will be a regular one. It's a "demand" right now, but bibi has made it the Jewish 'starting position.' You must realize muman, how negotiations work. As past precedent shows us, the Jewish starting position is negotiated, and erodes to something more of a compromise, while the Arab position never changes. So Bibi is giving them that first step by committing to a state. They will eventually finagle their way to a regular state, which the rest of the world will say we cannot deny them, and either bibi or some future leaders will cave in with that. They will say 'how can you demand them to be demilitarized? They have a right to defend themselves. No state works demilitarized" - it's what they will say, and Bibi or someone else will cave.
Bibi made a historic mistake with his groundmaking decision to endorse officially the concept of a Fakestinian state. No Likud leader did such a selfhating thing in the UN before. Sharon was the first so-called rightist to state his approval or openness to the idea. But no one made such a bold pronouncement of national policy like Bibi did. This is atrocious.
They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east...
So? That doesn't mean we should give them the first steps to eliminating it, G-d forbid.
The fact that he stands up against Iran and Venezuela and Libya is monumental and should be applauded.
Alright, but that doesn't excuse other mistakes he might make.
Are we speaking of the same Begin that was part of Jimmy Carter's land surrender debacle.
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I disagree with all of you...
I applaud bibis speech. It took a lot of strength to get up there and put the UN in its place. He shamed them and showed them how unfair the UN is, while standing in the UN general assembly. I saw the speech and still think he did an A+ job. Everyone, including the middle-center Jews at my YK services all agreed it was an excellent speech. I am ashamed that I am associated with a group of people who are so negative.
Bibis speech was exceptional and will go down in history as the first time a Jewish leader stood up for his own people, against evil the likes of which the world has not seen for over 60 years... He deserves a medal...
Shame on all who don't see the good of what Bibi did. My rabbi told a story about how the Lubavitch Rabbi had a meeting with Bibi over 30 years ago at 770 just before his Vort...The Rebbe gave him advice about how to be a Jew in the UN and pointed out the evil which the UN represents. I believe {according to my Rabbis story who was there at the time} that Bibi mentioned his meeting with the Rebbe.
This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept. They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east... The fact that he stands up against Iran and Venezuela and Libya is monumental and should be applauded.
Why would you be ashamed of associating with people who aspire to Kahanist ideals which clearly at odds with Bibi's political chicanery? Now, more to the point:
First: - Bibi or anyone else , including your center-right American Jewish friends, DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT to dictate to a sovereign Fakestinian state any conditions, whether external or internal. This dictate is unacceptable under the international law and will not be accepted as a legitimate objection to creation of the new monster state by the world's body.
Second - what happens when Jordanian puppet is overthrown by a popular uprising that decides to merge with then militarized or "demilitarized" Fakestine? What legal right Israel will have to intervene?
Third - where do you get such a contempt for Arabs as to tell them what they can or can not do in their sovereign state and, moreover, predict their behavior as to what they will or will not accept? Besides, even if they agree to any idiotic condition put forth by Israel - don't you know that Arabs will immediately violate and annul any clauses that will be detrimental to them. And Israel will have no legal recourse.
Forth - What other people in this world trade their ancient, G-d given land and offer it as gamble in exchange for some unfounded assertions of the corrupt leader? You claim to be a Torah scholar - where in Torah do you find that a Jewish leader can EVEN offer any part of Israel to the avowed Jew-hating enemy? Who should be ashamed here - you or the people on this forum who a faithful to the Kahanist ideals, to Torah and the land of Israel?!
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Manch,
I only 'aspire' to be a Torah scholar. Over the Yom Kippur holiday I had a chance to mingle with some true scholars and Chabad shliachs.
I don't think that a PA state will be established because I believe the fakestinians will never agree to Israels existence. Doesn't the very Hamas mission statement call for the complete removal of Israel?
Do I think it is wise to talk about such nonsense? Not really. I would rather prefer the Kahanist goal of removing the non-Jewish population from Israel and letting them settle in their own lands, like Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.
But I operate on the principle that all Jews, no matter how far from Torah, have the real capacity to come back, and change their life, to make the life for fellow Jews better. I look at the story of Moshe who grew up in Pharoahs house. One day he was horrified that a Jew was being beaten and his heart was moved to action. Could he have believed he would have acted like that? He grew up 40 years in the house of Pharaoh. And still he had a 'yiddisha Kup'.
I do not disagree completely... I am just striving to see the good.
There is time to rebuke, and a time to praise.
I am not ashamed that we are upset with Bibi... I just think that the day after Yom Kippur, and the study we do about forgiving and the kindness of Abraham, that we could show a little more support for a Jew who did stand up when he could have sat down.
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I really believe that the settlement issue is something that has been decided in principal many moons ago
You believe this based on what? With risk of sounding snide, I don't intend to, but it sounds like wishful thinking. And who "decided" it?
and even if Netenyahu disagrees with what has been decided he really can't put a halt to it.
Why not? He's PM. What he says goes.
He may only be able to slow it down some.
But he didn't do that, he sped up the process.
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Are we speaking of the same Begin that was part of Jimmy Carter's land surrender debacle.
Yes, same Begin. He was a great Jewish hero, who made a few grave mistakes as Prime minister. STILL Bibi could not tie Begin's shoes. And if you have ill-will toward Begin for his mistakes as PM, all the moreso you should be fuming at what Bibi is doing because Bibi has nothing else to show for himself, while Begin did!
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Are we speaking of the same Begin that was part of Jimmy Carter's land surrender debacle.
Yes, same Begin. He was a great Jewish hero, who made a few grave mistakes as Prime minister. STILL Bibi could not tie Begin's shoes. And if you have ill-will toward Begin for his mistakes as PM, all the moreso you should be fuming at what Bibi is doing because Bibi has nothing else to show for himself, while Begin did!
I respect both of these men.
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Manch,
I only 'aspire' to be a Torah scholar. Over the Yom Kippur holiday I had a chance to mingle with some true scholars and Chabad shliachs.
I don't think that a PA state will be established because I believe the fakestinians will never agree to Israels existence. Doesn't the very Hamas mission statement call for the complete removal of Israel?
Muman, the Arab refusal hasn't stopped any of the surrenders in the past and it wouldn't stop this one. The Arab refusals only prompt "Unilateral" action instead, like what was done in Gush Katif. That was termed "unilateral" because Sharon did not expect any sort of reciprocation from the Arabs in response to it. Why? Because he could not have expected that because they would refuse. So he went ahead and did it "unilaterally" .... A comedy of the absurd. But this is what Israel does. Arafat y's refusal to acknowledge Israel or "stop terror" didn't stop them from bringing him from exile to the heartland of Israel along with his terrorist thugs. It just never ends. And it seems the delusion and wishful thinking of the masses just never ends.
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Are we speaking of the same Begin that was part of Jimmy Carter's land surrender debacle.
Yes, same Begin. He was a great Jewish hero, who made a few grave mistakes as Prime minister. STILL Bibi could not tie Begin's shoes. And if you have ill-will toward Begin for his mistakes as PM, all the moreso you should be fuming at what Bibi is doing because Bibi has nothing else to show for himself, while Begin did!
I respect both of these men.
Can't you respect someone and still know that something they are doing is completely wrong, immoral, foolhardy, and dangerous to the Jewish people? Even if other things they are doing happen to be good things?
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They are very fearful of repurcussions from the Iranian midget Amadinajad. Their families are well-off Jews in Iran and they fear losing all their possesions to any anger he may carry out against the Persian Jewish community.
I mean gee, at some point, what is more important, the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews who are threatened by the midgets nukes, or the reprisals that rich Persian Jews who refuse to leave galut might face if Israel decides to defend itself against the threat...
Obviously I agree... But my point is that there is a dilemma. It is not a simple decision to pick up from where you are doing well and leave to a new place. We realize this was the request Hashem asked from Abraham to "Go for yourself" Lech Lecha to the land which he promised. It is indeed a test and one which is not easy to overcome.
If a person is actually rich though, they have a much easier time doing it. They can even afford to airlift some of their relatives along with them if the issue is leaving behind family.
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Are we speaking of the same Begin that was part of Jimmy Carter's land surrender debacle.
Yes, same Begin. He was a great Jewish hero, who made a few grave mistakes as Prime minister. STILL Bibi could not tie Begin's shoes. And if you have ill-will toward Begin for his mistakes as PM, all the moreso you should be fuming at what Bibi is doing because Bibi has nothing else to show for himself, while Begin did!
I respect both of these men.
I am aware of Begin's early history however the Land surrender was something that really cost him a great deal. People like myself remember him most for that lapse in judgement. As of now Bibi's history book is not complete. In time to come he may also be judged as harshly as Begin and then again he may not be if he does the right things.
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Why would you be ashamed of associating with people who aspire to Kahanist ideals which clearly at odds with Bibi's political chicanery? Now, more to the point:
First: - Bibi or anyone else , including your center-right American Jewish friends, DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT to dictate to a sovereign Fakestinian state any conditions, whether external or internal. This dictate is unacceptable under the international law and will not be accepted as a legitimate objection to creation of the new monster state by the world's body.
Second - what happens when Jordanian puppet is overthrown by a popular uprising that decides to merge with then militarized or "demilitarized" Fakestine? What legal right Israel will have to intervene?
Third - where do you get such a contempt for Arabs as to tell them what they can or can not do in their sovereign state and, moreover, predict their behavior as to what they will or will not accept? Besides, even if they agree to any idiotic condition put forth by Israel - don't you know that Arabs will immediately violate and annul any clauses that will be detrimental to them. And Israel will have no legal recourse.
Forth - What other people in this world trade their ancient, G-d given land and offer it as gamble in exchange for some unfounded assertions of the corrupt leader? You claim to be a Torah scholar - where in Torah do you find that a Jewish leader can EVEN offer any part of Israel to the avowed Jew-hating enemy? Who should be ashamed here - you or the people on this forum who a faithful to the Kahanist ideals, to Torah and the land of Israel?!
Manch these points were very well said, and I completely agree.
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Manch these points were very well said, and I completely agree.
So you ignore the good. That is unfortunate.
I never said we 'American Jews' will dictate what Israel does. I believe Israel will act in the best interest of the people. The support of the Jews in America is important and if you don't care then I am sorry for you.
You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity. And believe me I am working for this goal. The entire congregation which I attended are virulently pro-Israel and are moving towards understanding our 'kahanist' ideas.
Manch did not need to insult me in this manner.
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Manch these points were very well said, and I completely agree.
So you ignore the good. That is unfortunate.
I never said we 'American Jews' will dictate what Israel does. I believe Israel will act in the best interest of the people. The support of the Jews in America is important and if you don't care then I am sorry for you.
You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity. And believe me I am working for this goal. The entire congregation which I attended are virulently pro-Israel and are moving towards understanding our 'kahanist' ideas.
Manch did not need to insult me in this manner.
Muman, I did not intend to insult you but I did take an exception at the initial statement of your post of how ashamed you are to be associated with the "hard liners". Also, you have not provided one argument in support of your or mine assertions. Your subsequent comments do not refer and are not relevant to the points that I've made.
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<snip>
Manch these points were very well said, and I completely agree.
So you ignore the good. That is unfortunate.
I never said we 'American Jews' will dictate what Israel does. I believe Israel will act in the best interest of the people. The support of the Jews in America is important and if you don't care then I am sorry for you.
Ignored what good? Manch made very good points and I paid attention to those. That was all I said.
What does this have to do with support of American Jews? That really has nothing to do with this conversation, but maybe if you explain this point (whatever point you were making there) further , maybe it will show what is behind your mistaken views on this or why you're taking such a surprising stance.
You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity. And believe me I am working for this goal. The entire congregation which I attended....
Well I am happy for you and your congregation but perhaps you and they are mistaken about what really constitutes a "strong Jewish presence in Israel" because groups like Jstreet use that same rhetoric. I'm not comparing you to Jstreet, but that is an extreme example that exemplifies your folly with these statements you're making. "we support a strong, secure Israel, and you just don't understand the truth" - that is how people who can't deal with criticism respond. The leftist groups do that. Why not address the arguments instead of the reflexive response like the ADL or jstreet makes.
Manch did not need to insult me in this manner.
Muman, I would not appreciate anyone insulting you, however I don't think he insulted you but merely asked you a pointed question. I find his question to be valid.
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I believe Israel will act in the best interest of the people.
The support of the Jews in America is important and if you don't care then I am sorry for you.
Perhaps this is where you go wrong. This belief that Israel will act in the best interest of the Jewish people... Since when? I mean what is that based on? Is that what Israel has always done? I don't think history bears that out. Would you be saying the same thing if a leftist like Livni was in power?
Bones and I had a long discussion about this. What he was saying about the Israeli Jews I think is a lot more true about American Jews. He wanted to say that the phony right winger makes people "comfortable" and thinking that he for sure has their best interest at heart no matter how many times he demonstrates that he doesn't, and they are more vulnerable to betrayal in that case (ie the case of Sharon and his disengagement). I did not believe this about Israeli Jews, I think they know they are being betrayed for the most part, and see the stupidity in the decisions, but have no real recourse against it. But about American Jews, the way they gush over Bibi, it seems Bones is much more correct. And you seem to be a good example of this phenomenon (albeit anecdotal).
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I believe I am within the Kahanist camp. I also have to deal with others who are not. I hope to be able to convince more American Jews that this is the only way to survive.
I hope to make advances in our cause. According to my understanding of Judaism this goal will be accomplished. The history of the modern Jewish state is very disturbing, yet there are tales of much hope.
I hope that the awakening occurs soon and I have some reasons to feel it is coming. Just based on my personal relations with American Jews and Israelis. The Israelis I know used to be leftists but have moved more to the right in the last two years... I find hope in this fact and maybe I am being naive but I hope not.
You may be right. But I think that being positive has more effect than being negative. I will not go into the sources for this belief but I have reason to feel like this.
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Call me in the minority but these are my two cents.
Lewinsky is a charlatan. He's a joke--the worst kind of phony rightist there is. He really piles on the oil during the speeches, and then turns around and does the exact opposite thing as though a nice speech and some phony bluster make it alright to give sacred Jewish land to demons. What is really amazing, though, is that Israelis actually fall for it. Either he is the best actor in the whole world, or is schizophrenic.
All the Lewinsky fans on this forum need to consider the fact that he's destroying more Jewish outposts than Olmert did.
Begin is a different story. Unlike Lewinsky, he actually did things in his youth to merit being called a Jewish hero. Still, being secular and without having a personal relationship in G-d, he completely collapsed like a quivering blob of goo when the Nazi Carter put the heat to him. I cannot respect such weak behavior regardless of the circumstances. G-d gave him a seat from which he could have saved the Jewish people--if Begin had given the word, every last Arab could have been kicked out of the Holy Land. Instead, he gave the Nazis (Muslim and otherwise) everything they wanted and more (80% of Eretz Yisrael), and made every other suicide retreat possible.
I can't forgive him, and I can't call him a Jewish hero at the time of his death. What he did was beyond the pale.
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You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity.
As to this statement I'm a little confused. Is Bibi "persistent in negativity" by preventing Jewish communities from building adequate housing to relieve overcrowding, by preventing Jews from building schools, hospitals and other basic facilities, and by agreeing to let Obama tell Jews where they can live freely and where they can't.....
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters.
And is Bibi "persistent in negativity" when he lobbies the UN for the "right" of our avowed national enemies, who want to murder every Jewish man woman and child, to have a sovereign state of their own ON OUR LAND that he will surrender to them for this purpose?
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters on the most 'grand' public stage.
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Begin is a different story. Unlike Lewinsky, he actually did things in his youth to merit being called a Jewish hero.
Yes, I said something similar. All the gushing over Bibi is misplaced and in my opinion very dangerous.
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and without having a personal relationship in G-d, he completely collapsed like a quivering blob of goo when the Nazi Carter put the heat to him.
I don't agree that Begin had no personal relationship with God. He was raised traditional in Poland and took inspiration from Torah no doubt for his nationalistic views.
I recently heard a story that he met with American rabbinical leaders in America, and donned a kippa and said birkat hamazon (after-blessing over a meal) at the meal with them, which put all the reform leaders to shame, who would never be caught doing such things or might not even know how to. The person who told me this claimed that this actually impacted the reform movement's more recent efforts to adopt more traditional practices. Suddenly it was "cool" to be Jewish again since the Israeli prime minister showed his respect for Jewish tradition. Bizarre yes but thats the reformists for you.
Anyway, he caved in yes, that was terrible, and he wasn't necessarily Shomer shabbat ( I don't think he was but I admit I don't actually know for sure), but I don't think anyone can claim that he had no relationship with God. Sometimes that is expressed in different ways. Even a lot of reform Jews have a degree of relationship to God despite mixed up views and/or behaviors. And he was no reformist.
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You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity.
As to this statement I'm a little confused. Is Bibi "persistent in negativity" by preventing Jewish communities from building adequate housing to relieve overcrowding, by preventing Jews from building schools, hospitals and other basic facilities, and by agreeing to let Obama tell Jews where they can live freely and where they can't.....
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters.
And is Bibi "persistent in negativity" when he lobbies the UN for the "right" of our avowed national enemies, who want to murder every Jewish man woman and child, to have a sovereign state of their own ON OUR LAND that he will surrender to them for this purpose?
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters on the most 'grand' public stage.
Of course you know that I agree with your points. But there is something to be said about praising someone when they do something right. This is my point...
And of course I was not referring to you personally.
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You will not achieve the goals which I understand to be a strong Jewish presence in Israel if you are so persistent in negativity.
As to this statement I'm a little confused. Is Bibi "persistent in negativity" by preventing Jewish communities from building adequate housing to relieve overcrowding, by preventing Jews from building schools, hospitals and other basic facilities, and by agreeing to let Obama tell Jews where they can live freely and where they can't.....
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters.
And is Bibi "persistent in negativity" when he lobbies the UN for the "right" of our avowed national enemies, who want to murder every Jewish man woman and child, to have a sovereign state of their own ON OUR LAND that he will surrender to them for this purpose?
or am I "persistent in negativity" for pointing out how wrong that is and how dangerous to the Jewish people when he gives in to the demands of Arab terrorist gangsters on the most 'grand' public stage.
Of course you know that I agree with your points. But there is something to be said about praising someone when they do something right. This is my point...
And of course I was not referring to you personally.
Yes, I understand. And I'm not trying to negate all good things, but it's like this...What if an Islamist builds a homemade bomb that has delicious chocolate cake all around it with cherries on it and tasty icing, so you can't see the bomb inside, just a big presentation of wonderful looking cake and everyone is nibbling on the outside of it tasting morsels of the pleasing outer layer of the cake and enjoying the chocolate's satisfying aroma up close? Well, inside is still a bomb.
Not comparing Bibi with an Islamist, but what he did was give the Jewish people a big outer appearance of delicious chocolate cake, with fancy icing on top and figurines adorning it, but imbedded deep inside the same dessert was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. That self-destructive bomb was his endorsing of a Fakestinian state.
Like a Trojan horse, only he gave the trojan horse to himself and to his own people! In a way, he negates his own positive statements.
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Lewinsky is a pig. That should be the beginning and end of it. He's nothing more than a successful con man.
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This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept. They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east... <<
Giving Bibi 100% of the benefit of the doubt I still think he is wrong on this. If he thinks he has stopped a Palestinian State by putting too high a hurdle in their way he is wrong. Everyone will remember that he accepted a Palestinian State. His conditions will be chipped away at, they will be defined away they will be forgotten. Oslo initially had all kinds of conditions and when Arafat never met them they just were ignored. Even if Bibi's heart is in the right place (which I doubt) he did not do well in my opinion.
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I didn't see or hear Netanyahu's speech, so I'm a little reluctant to comment about it. Here are some of my thoughts anyway.
If he indicated acceptance of an Arabstinian state, it's not a new development and we shouldn't be surprised. Remember, every 'negotiation' and 'peace accord' for many years now has been postulated and predicated on the premise of the establishment of a State for the Psuedostinians.
So, did anyone realistically expect Netanyahu to get up to the podium and say 'Sorry. Israel will never agree to yet another Arab state on Jewish Land.' ?
We all should know by now that that wasn't going to happen.
I have little doubt that Bibi gave a good speech. After all, he is the consumate politician. I'm equally sure that from a Kahanist standpoint it was unacceptable.
The truth be told, Bibi's presence and Israel's membership in the den of thieves and inequity, errr, the UN is entirely unacceptable. I know some people think Israel should continue to make it's case in front of the world and remain a member of the UN. I really don't see the point. The deck is so stacked against Israel that any accord derived with the involvement or intervention of the UN is only going to ultimately bring harm to the Jews and the Jewish State.
The same can be said of direct negotiations with Arabs and Muslims. There is nothing the opposing side has to offer besides the false promise of peace. Treaties and accords can only result in unacceptable appeasements and concessions.
There's no one to talk to. More importantly, there's nothing to talk about.
We should always keep these truths in mind when evaluating the actions and performances of Israeli leaders, past and present.
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This 'demilitarized pa state' will never occur... It is a condition which the opponent will never accept. They also will never accept a Jewish state in the middle east... <<
Giving Bibi 100% of the benefit of the doubt I still think he is wrong on this. If he thinks he has stopped a Palestinian State by putting too high a hurdle in their way he is wrong. Everyone will remember that he accepted a Palestinian State. His conditions will be chipped away at, they will be defined away they will be forgotten. Oslo initially had all kinds of conditions and when Arafat never met them they just were ignored. Even if Bibi's heart is in the right place (which I doubt) he did not do well in my opinion.
To further you point of how idiotic current Israel position is, it is rightfully perceived by the international community as follows:
So, we accept Internationally Recognized Right of the "Palestinian" people to self-determination and their own state only under condition that we can ILLEGALLY dictate their form of governance and limit their right to a self-defense which, btw, is immutable right of any sovereign State. Huh? And after that Israel will try to prove to the International community that it is not a pariah state and really wants peace?! By G-d, if I was a fakestinian negotiator or propagandist, I would have a field day with this position!
As strange as it sounds, a following response would be perfectly Legal and Legitimate under International law -
"Israel during a defensive war imposed on it by surrounding Jew-hating Arab regimes have liberated ancient Jewish lands of Judea, Samaria and Gaza and according to the Internationally accepted practices declares them part of Israel and announces annexation of such territories into Israel proper"
How else are current green line borders of Israel, so different from the 1948 borders, are recognized by the International community as Israel borders? There is no legal recourse against Israel annexing YESHA, however, Israel's current position is unfair and doesn't make sense to anyone - Jews and Arabs, Americans and Russians.
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Here is a very relevant article that predicts this mess and much more. Funny how it started out that we will "resolve the [so-called] Palestinian issues and rights in a just manner" or something to that effect, but Begin insisted, There will never be a "Palestinian" state. Rabbi Kahane points out how this is an inherent contradiction that simply cannot stand.
Now we are in the days where a "Palestinian" State is a foregone conclusion and yet Bibi claims it will be a "demilitarized," neutered state. As Manch points out, very similarly to what Rabbi Kahane said about the previous situation, one cannot impose such limitations if one admits to the 'justice' and 'need' for a Fakestinian state in the first place. It will wither away and the promise of Bibi "No army, no military" will be left for some later chump PM's recanting, God forbid.
Now to the artcle:
“Palestine” and Autonomy
Written by Rabbi Meir Kahane
“Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil” (Isaiah 5:20)
“Hear, ye deaf, and look, ye blind, that ye may see” (Isaiah 42:18
Prime Minister Begin has been adamant in stating that there will “never be a Palestine state” and “we will never speak with the PLO.” Yet in the Camp David accords, Mr. Begin agreed to the following:
“Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the Palestine people should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the Palestinian problem in all its aspect.” And again: “The solution from the negotiations must also recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and their just requirements.
The “Palestine” people. For decades, Israeli leaders were careful never to speak of or recognize a “Palestine people.” For if there exists a “Palestine people” what is a more just requirement and a legitimate right than a state of their own? What is the most basic right of any people if not the right to its own state? How can we speak of a “Palestine people” and then say “but they cannot have their own state!”
And if we speak of the “representative of the Palestine people,” what will be if these “people” choose as their representatives, the PLO? And any Israeli leader who tells us that the majority of the “Palestinians” do not accept the PLO as their leaders, lies to us, and proof is his for the asking by simply allowing free elections in which the PLO is allowed to participate. Indeed, there is ludicrousness in the repeated pledges against speaking with the PLO even as there is daily contact and cooperation with the PLO mayors of Hebron, Ramallah, Sh’chem and other towns!
When Begin signed an accord which had as its official English translation the concept of a “Palestine people” and its “legitimate and basic rights,” he set the stage for a confrontation with the entire world, a confrontation which is of his own making. Instead of having cleaved to a staunch, open and honest disclaimer of any “Palestine people,” he, for the countless time, chose the path of deviousness by which he signed an accord that speaks of a “Palestine people” and then stated in a letter to Carter that he construes “Palestine people” to mean “Palestinian Arabs.” It is, once again, the tortured legalism that Begin uses so often to evade confrontation but which is so meaningless to the world. The official version speaks of a “Palestine people” and its legitimate rights, the most basic of which is clearly the right to the same kind of state that Jewish have.
The FULL meaning of Autonomy
The commitment to FULL AUTONOMY by Begin in the letter of March 26, 1979 signed jointly by him and Sadat. The letter states:
“The two governments agree to negotiate continuously and in good faith … They also agree that the objective of the negotiations is the establishment of the self-governing authority in the West Bank and Gaza in order to provide full autonomy to the inhabitant.”
No amount of legalism and tortured hair-splitting can possibly “prove” that Begin has not agreed to “full autonomy.” In the minds of any honest person that means exactly what it says – FULL and not partial self-rule. On the day that Sadat complains to Carter and the American people that Begin is dishonest and is not negotiating in the “good faith” required by the peace treaty, what will the response be? What will American Jewish leaders say? But more of that later.
The agreement by Begin to “full autonomy” is made even clearer in other paragraphs of the accords. To the anguished and angry cries of opponents of the Purim Peace, claiming that autonomy will place Jews, living and traveling through the liberated lands, in jeopardy since the police will be Arab, Begin has attempted to claim that this will not be so. Consider however, the agreement that Begin signed at Camp David”
“A strong local police force will be constituted by the self-governing authority. It will be composed of inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza.”
And again: “A strong local police force will be established which may include Jordanian citizens.”
How can Begin possibly explain away this language? The agreement speaks of a strong, exclusively Arab police force to be appointed by the Arab authority. Will they catch the terrorists who fire rockets into Kiryat Arba? Will they insure that the highway from Jerusalem and Beersheba and all the other roads be safe for Jewish riders? And has being clarified for us what he meant by signing the agreement that reads in the Camp David accords”
“A withdrawal of Israeli armed forces will take place and there will be a redeployment of the remaining Israeli forces into specified security locations.”
I want an explanation, and all Jews should too. Three things appear to emerge rather clearly from this. One: There will be a WITHDRAWAL of Israel troops from the liberated territories entirely. Two: For the “remaining” troops there will be a redeployment from their present positions that today are scattered throughout the territories and from which they go anywhere, any time. Three: From now on there will be “specified” and limited locations for “security” beyond which troops will not go.
What emerges most glaringly is a picture very different from the one Begin now seeks to paint for Israelis.
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I've read this article before and my arguments were actually inspired by HaRav Kahane, ZT"L HY"D logic. arguments were