JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on November 24, 2009, 08:10:07 AM
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One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews)
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/587981/0_61_112409_nepal.jpg)
We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm (http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm)
even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.
Now that would be a riot!
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According to Halacha, Jews are only permitted and obliged to bring offerings in the Temple. Since it is destroyed and not rebuilt yet, it is forbidden to bring offerings today.
It would not be any riot because people here understand that what you say has nothing to do with Jewish law and worldview.
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One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews)
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/587981/0_61_112409_nepal.jpg)
We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm (http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm)
even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.
Now that would be a riot!
Don't worry about it when Moshiach comes, alright?
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There are many different Moshiach scenarios. Which one of them will actually occur depends on us now!
There is a scenario of a seemingly natural, slowly enfolding over years Messianic Age, in which the Erev Rav and goyim will try to kill the Moshiach in the early days of his hisgalus: "...by dedicating the Third Temple, like his ancestor David, Messiah will suffer persecution at the hands of skeptics and scoffers, who will refuse to recognize his sovereignty and will scheme to assassinate him to destroy his monarchy..." (Artscroll, intro Tehillim 53)
And one reason for this could be their desire to prevent a return to the "Tanach Era of sacrificial animal butchery". If the Rubashkin saga, PETA, Animal Rights and anti-shechitah movements are anything to go by, this desire will literally be ...to the death!
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There are many different Moshiach scenarios. Which one of them will actually occur depends on us now!
There is a scenario of a seemingly natural, slowly enfolding over years Messianic Age, in which the Erev Rav and goyim will try to kill the Moshiach in the early days of his hisgalus: "...by dedicating the Third Temple, like his ancestor David, Messiah will suffer persecution at the hands of skeptics and scoffers, who will refuse to recognize his sovereignty and will scheme to assassinate him to destroy his monarch..." (Artscroll, intro Tehillim 53)
And one reason for this could be their desire to prevent a return to the "Tanach Era of sacrificial animal butchery". If the Rubashkin saga, PETA, Animal Rights and anti-shechitah movements are anything to go by, this desire will literally be ...to the death!
When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.
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When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.
So what is the War of Gog & Magog and the death of Moshiach ben Yosef in the early Messianic days all about then?! Eventually, those goyim and Jewish opponents who may survive, they won't question any more!
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When Moshiach comes, nobody will question what we do.
So what is the War of Gog & Magog and the death of Moshiach ben Yosef all about then?!
Okay. What I mean is, AFTER all the wars, and deaths,lol. Sorry, I wasn't more clear. Once it's all said and done, and we have the Beis Hamikdash again (today please G-d), and there is peace in the world, nobody will have any problems with how we serve Hashem.
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One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews)
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/587981/0_61_112409_nepal.jpg)
We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm (http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm)
even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.
Now that would be a riot!
Once again you make a huge chillul hashem. Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?
You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again. You never fail at this.
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One can only guess the opposition that will be engendered by the the return of massed korbonos in the Third Temple era, if the experience in India is anything to go by! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews)
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/587981/0_61_112409_nepal.jpg)
We might even be permitted to bring them today http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm (http://koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm)
even without a Red Heifer, a Temple, a Kohen Gadol or a Moshiach! I believe that was Rav Kahane's opinion.
Now that would be a riot!
Once again you make a huge chillul hashem. Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?
You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again. You never fail at this.
In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.
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Once again you make a huge chillul hashem. Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?
You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again. You never fail at this.
In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.
Oh come on, get real. He put up that picture and referenced "massed korbonos." Let's not be so naive about what this guy is doing here.
And miflezet is a woman?
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Once again you make a huge chillul hashem. Why would you post a picture of a jungle boogey hacking away wildly at unsuspecting animals and associate this with kosher korbanos/shechita as if this has any relation to how it is done?
You make religious Jews look like crazy lunatics and morons yet again. You never fail at this.
In her defense, I think she was showing how nuts those other people look and hoping that others don't think we (will) look like that.
Oh come on, get real. He put up that picture and referenced "massed korbonos." Let's not be so naive about what this guy is doing here.
And miflezet is a woman?
I thought Wonga was a woman. Oh well. You came out a bit harsh when it's clear she probably doesn't have the same education as you are I. I think her comments, in general, are innocent.
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There is no comparison between the Torah's scientifically-proven painless shechitah method, and the painful methods of the gentiles in despatching animals.
But a change in the current world mindset, and even in our own, will have to take place for them to accept the sight of Jews cutting up droves of animals in the Name of Hashem and as an atonement for their chatoyim
(http://kenraggio.com/Sacrifice%20at%20Pesach%202004.jpg)
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There is no comparison between the Torah's scientifically-proven painless shechitah method, and the painful methods of the gentiles in despatching animals.
But a change in the current world mindset, and even in our own, will have to take place for them to accept the sight of Jews cutting up droves of animals in the Name of Hashem and as an atonement for their chatoyim
(http://kenraggio.com/Sacrifice%20at%20Pesach%202004.jpg)
And as we can see this picture is much different than that camel jockey swinging a machete around wildly. So why post something like that if not to make us look like savages?
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The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews
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The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews
And you don't find it inappropriate that he attached this Nepalese (translation: backward tribal savagery) machete swinging contest to Jewish korbonos? This is an outrage.
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The picture he posted is from the news story on FOX news today... I read this story there...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576529,00.html?test=latestnews
And you don't find it inappropriate that he attached this Nepalese (translation: backward tribal savagery) machete swinging contest to Jewish korbonos? This is an outrage.
It does give the wrong impression but I am more patient with Wonga than most... I dont think it was done on purpose {I hope not}...
I do feel that this is an example of the resistance of the World to the idea of Korbanos... It is a sensitive topic even within the religious community. People love animals {me included} and will find it difficult to understand ritual slaughter of animals.
The way I cope with the concept is that there are animals dying every day... On my drive to work each day I must see at least four or five dead animals along the road.... I sometimes consider these road kill to be a form of sacrifice... When we see a sacrificial animal slaughtered we are supposed to feel fear and awe and make changes inside ourselves. This is the reason for Korbanos... Not to spill blood to feed a deity.
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
Qorbanot
In ancient times, a major component of Jewish ritual was the offering of qorbanot. An entire order of the Talmud (Kodashim, that is, Holy Things) is devoted to the subject. More than 100 of the 613 Commandments as enumerated by Rambam specifically address issues related to qorbanot.
The word "qorbanot" is usually translated as "sacrifices" or "offerings"; however, both of these terms suggest a loss of something or a giving up of something, and although that is certainly a part of the ritual, that is not at all the literal meaning of the Hebrew word. The word qorbanot comes from the root Qof-Reish-Beit, which means "to draw near," and indicates the primary purpose of offerings: to draw us near to G-d.
Parts of the rituals involved in the offering of qorbanot were performed exclusively by the kohanim (priests). These rituals were only performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The procedures could not be performed by anyone else, and could not be performed in any other place. Because the Temple no longer exists, we can no longer offer qorbanot.
There are three basic concepts underlying qorbanot: giving, substitution and coming closer.
The first the aspect of giving. A qorban requires the renunciation of something that belongs to the person making the offering. Thus, sacrifices are made from domestic animals, not wild animals (because wild animals do not belong to anyone). Likewise, offerings of food are ordinarily in the form of flour or meal, which requires substantial work to prepare.
Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense "punished" in place of the offerer. It is interesting to note that whenever the subject of qorbanot is addressed in the Torah, the name of G-d used is the four-letter name indicating G-d's mercy.
The third important concept is the idea coming closer. The essence of sacrifice is to bring a person closer to G-d.
Purposes of Qorbanot
Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of qorbanot is not simply to obtain forgiveness from sin. Although many qorbanot have the effect of expiating sins, there are many other purposes for bringing qorbanot, and the expiatory effect is often incidental, and is subject to significant limitations.
The purposes of qorbanot are much the same as the purposes of prayer: we bring qorbanot to praise G-d, to become closer to Him, to express thanks to G-d, love or gratitude. We bring qorbanot to celebrate holidays and festivals. Others are used to cleanse a person of ritual impurity (which does not necessarily have anything to do with sin: childbirth causes such impurity, but is certainly not a sin). And yes, many qorbanot, like many prayers, are brought for purposes of atonement.
The atoning aspect of qorbanot is limited. For the most part, qorbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, qorbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, qorbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.
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Muman, after a while patience wears thin. This guy has an unfortunate "habit" at this website.
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Muman, after a while patience wears thin. This guy has an unfortunate "habit" at this website.
Let's give another (Yid) the benefit of the doubt?
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As much as the average goy/Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.
The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a compulsory Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity.
Which is why most goyim/liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!
http://www.templeinstitute.org/sacrificial_service.htm
(http://www.templeinstitute.org/images/offerings-article.jpg)
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As much as the average goy/ Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.
The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity. Which is why most goyim/Liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!
You have to understand something. THAT WON'T HAPPEN. Why? Because Jews will be dominant in the world. Nobody will question anything that Jews do. You have to get today out of your head when you talk about when we have the temple. What we do will be the norm.
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As much as the average goy/Jewish liberal is outraged at the Nepalese, how much more so will they go berserk at Jewish Cohanim shechting thousands upon thousands of sheep, bulls and goats in the Third Temple, as per Yechezkel 40-47.
The "modern" mindset will NEVER reconcile itself, even with a compulsory Torah/Noahide reeducation, to a return to a return to sacrificing anmials to the Deity.
Which is why most goyim/liberal Jews will not be around in Third Temple times!
Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes. Everything will be based on Hashem and the Torah when we have our temple.
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Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes.
There never was a "stone-age". This is an evolutionary myth. Mankind was never primitive.
And the ancients were much more spiritually aware than us. On the contrary, there has been a spiritual devolution. All of mankind used to offer up living sacrifices to their deities. The Midrash says that Yishmael was criticized for only offering up locusts to Hashem!
The Aztecs and Incas even went to the extent of human sacrifices, which is an abomination and forbidden: but it showed they really believed in something!
Only Judaism has preserved the true way in the sacrificial procedure to the True Deity.
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Please remember that the "modern" mind-set we have now in the goyish world will be like the stone-age when Moshaich comes.
There never was a "stone-age". This is an evolutionary myth.
LOL. Ludicrous.
The stone age was when man built things primarily out of stone. What's so difficult about accepting that that took place? Why must one deny historical fact?
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"Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron." (Breishis 4:22).
Men knew how to metal-work already from the beginning, and that beginning was only a few thousand years ago. There never was a "Stone Age". Evolutionists desperately want to push that beginning back 100s of 1000s, if not millions of years ago.
But the Torah & true scientific evidence contradict them.
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"Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron." (Breishis 4:22).
Men knew how to metal-work already from the beginning, and that beginning was only a few thousand years ago. There never was a "Stone Age". Evolutionists desperately want to push that beginning back 100s of 1000s, if not millions of years ago.
But the Torah & true scientific evidence contradict them.
LOL. And you can date Tubal-Cain from Jewish sources? Please. Stop living in denial of plain fact. It doesn't even make sense that man "knew metal-work" from the beginning... Did he know metal work before God put in the neshama? If man was always the same, what changed when he got a neshama?
And why has science and technology improved so much, even in the past 100 years? Man always knew how to build computers since the beginning of time, we just chose not to? Please do not be ridiculous, you make religious Jews look like morons. It may be that mankind's MORALITY was better in the past - certainly it peaked with the revelation at Sinai and has fallen ever since. But to claim that man's SCIENCE was better in the past is something only an ignorant fool could claim. As science/technology gets better, morality/ethics decline... Both happen as history moves forward. As my rabbi explained in shiur, Rav Soloveitchik described that it's a dichotomy of ethics and ontology and that in the end of time they will actually fuse together as one... but currently they are disparate and may become more and more disparate as time goes on.... until the very end (Messianic era) where they will somehow coincide.
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Does the Jewish year 5770AM have any meaning to you?
Do you believe that the Mabul took place in 1656AM?
LOL. And you can date Tubal-Cain from Jewish sources?
The ancients were were more skilled and intelligent than us. That science and inventions have exploded since the Industrial Revolution 1840 (5600AM) was foretold in the Zohar. It was a gift of rachmonus from Hashem, not because we are more intelligent, but because we are more stupid! Our enfeebled minds and bodies could not have survived without the recent revelations of electricty, engines, computers, fertilisers, atomic power etc. We may know more than the ancients, but we are actually dimmer: "If I have seen further than others, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants" (Isaac Newton).
And remember that more men were killed in the last century than in all the wars previous history added together.
And it's not over yet.....!
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Does the Jewish year 5770AM have any meaning to you?
Do you believe that the Mabul took place in 1656AM?
LOL. And you can date Tubal-Cain from Jewish sources?
The ancients were were more skilled and intelligent than us. That science and inventions have exploded since the Industrial Revolution 1840 (5600AM) was foretold in the Zohar. It was a gift of rachmonus from Hashem, not because we are more intelligent, but because we are more stupid! Our enfeebled minds and bodies could not have survived without the recent revelations of electricty, engines, computers, fertilisers, atomic power etc. We may know more than the ancients, but we are actually dimmer: "If I have seen further than others, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants" (Isaac Newton).
And remember that more men were killed in the last century than in all the wars previous history added together.
And it's not over yet.....!
So our minds were more feeble, yet somehow our minds created the inventions. You are fighting a losing battle here. Technology advances through human intuition. The ancients did not know how to build computers. They may have had a better connection with God, but they did not know how to build a computer. But what's more important? Obviously the connection with God. So if you want to call that more MORAL, go ahead, but that is not the same as technical intelligence/know-how. It is not more "advanced" scientifically speaking. Scientific knowledge is technical, not an inherent quality, and as time goes on, more information about God's creation becomes available, and more technical innovations are produced by humans. That says nothing about morality or ethics or connection with God. It only says that humans gained more technological prowess with time. Take that however you like, but facts are facts.
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Btw please check your messages, wonga.
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Most major discoveries are surprises and "by chance". Without Hashem & His Unpreemptable Timetable, no one invents anything, no matter how clever or simple they are: "In the 600th year of the 6000th the gates of Torah knowledge will open from above, & the wellsprings of secular knowledge from below, & will inundate the world" (Zohar I:117).
And lo & behold in and around 5600 (=1840) we had Dalton's Atomic Theory, Ampere (electricity), Laplace formulae, electric motor, electric telegraph, Faraday, electrochemistry, Joule's 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Doppler Effect, Radio, Boolean Algebra, Pasteur & immunization, spectroscope, incandescent lamp, Mendel & genetics, periodic table of the elements, electromagnetism, Koch & microbiology, Bell & telephone, bicycle, train, typewriter, sewing machine, photography, reaper, dynamite etc etc etc!
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Most major discoveries are surprises and "by chance". Without Hashem & His Unpreemptable Timetable, no one invents anything, no matter how clever or simple they are: "In the 600th year of the 6000th the gates of Torah knowledge will open from above, & the wellsprings of secular knowledge from below, & will inundate the world" (Zohar I:117).
And lo & behold in and around 5600 (=1840) we had Dalton's Atomic Theory, Ampere (electricity), Laplace formulae, electric motor, electric telegraph, Faraday, electrochemistry, Joule's 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Doppler Effect, Radio, Boolean Algebra, Pasteur & immunization, spectroscope, incandescent lamp, Mendel & genetics, periodic table of the elements, electromagnetism, Koch & microbiology, Bell & telephone, bicycle, train, typewriter, sewing machine, photography, reaper, dynamite etc etc etc!
And all of those inventors weren't thinking for themselves, yet you would claim that when you do a mitzvah, it is your own free will and you get credit for it. Nonsense. It is all free will, you do get credit for the mitzvah, and they also thought about deep ideas and came to conclusions. That it was in an opportune time, perhaps, but they still thought of it and created new things. Their brains were not programmed by God as robot automaton-goyim (or automaton secular-jew) implanted to bring new inventions to earth. That sounds like the theory that aliens secretly passed us technologies from another universe/planet.
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I do believe that Hashem decides when technology will be revealed. A Jew must believe this if they believe that Hashem is all powerful. While free will has to do with deciding right from wrong application of technology. Technology is certainly a double edged sword. It can be used for very much evil, as we see through atomic and biological weapons... But it can also be used for much good.
I do believe that the Kabbalah revealed that secular knowledge will increase till the coming of Moshiach. Many Talmudic discussions involve the idea the man will progress technologically till the end of days. I don't think it is far fetched to believe that every bit of intellect which humans have is from Hashem. There have been great minds in every generation. We must look for the good sparks in every neshama and try to unite them to achieve the things required to hasten Moshiach.
I am involved with developing high technology because I work as a software engineer developing digital signal processors for decoding video and audio streams. I believe my skills are Hashgacha Pratis/Divine Providence from Hashem and it excites me to be a part of the creation process of this world. Hashem is all powerful and to say that technology is solely from the hands of man is to deny this basic Jewish fact...
Do not believe for a moment that what we have is from our own work... Only from the providence of Hashem...
“He oppressed you and made you hungry, and He fed you the manna that neither you knew nor your forefathers knew, in order to inform you that not by bread alone does man live, rather by the entire expression of G-d’s word does man live” (Devarim 8:3).
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I do believe that Hashem decides when technology will be revealed. A Jew must believe this if they believe that Hashem is all powerful.
No, he mustn't.
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I do believe that Hashem decides when technology will be revealed. A Jew must believe this if they believe that Hashem is all powerful.
No, he mustn't.
You deny that Hashem is all powerful? Or you deny that he has knowledge of every event past, present, and future? Or what are you disagreeing with me about? If Hashem is all powerful and he is responsible for every blade of grass which grows and leaf which falls, how could he not be in control of when technology is developed? I dont understand your bringing up the concept of free will. Free will is only within the real of deciding good and evil, not what era we are born in, or the societies in which we grow up in. Progress has come extremely fast due to the enlightenment which, as we discussed, our sages foresaw.
Of course I think you are disagreeing that A Jew must believe this because I am making a generalization and every Jew is free to believe what he or she has learned to believe. But I believe my statement must be understood in the complete context of saying that divine providence covers every aspect of the world, technology included.
Here is this idea in 'light' of the upcoming Holiday of Chanukah:
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chanukah/greek.htm
Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, the Alter of Kelm9 asks - what is the meaning of the tefila - bayamim haheim baz'man hazeh - in those days at this time? (This is the formula used in both the bracha, she'asa nissim and in Al Hanissim) The obvious meaning is that we thank Hashem for the miracles He performed so many years ago at this time of year. Still, why do we even have to mention that they occurred bayamim haheim in those days? Surely this is obvious. We do not mention in the tefillos for other Yomim Tovim that we are commemorating events that occurred in days gone by.
The Alter explains that a neis nigleh, an open miracle serves two purposes. One aim is as we explained, to show that Hashem loves the tzadikim for their total emuna, faith in Him. The second purpose is to teach us that everything in this world is miraculous. Every blade of grass that grows, every apple that ripens is a wonder. Our ability to read this article, the ability to hold this booklet in our hands attests to the greatness of Hashem. This is a fundamental concept of emuna10. However being creatures of habit, we take things for granted and fail to see the Hand of Hashem in our daily lives. When we look back at the many open miracles Hashem has performed for us throughout history, we see that it is He who controls nature, that all phenomena are miracles albeit hidden.
We can now understand the words bayamim haheim baz'man hazeh. Hashem made the neis Chanuka as a show of love for the selfless devotion of the Chashmonaim . That is the meaning of bayamim haheim, in those days - the miracle was for them. However the lesson to be gleaned from the neis was not for that generation. The Chashmonaim already understood that everything in the world is a manifestation of Hashem's will. The miracles were meant to inspire the later generations, for us that are baz'man hazeh - the lessons are for us today11.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80733/jewish/As-Knowledge-Humbles-Power.htm
As the Previous Rebbe explains in another maamar associated with Yud-Beis Tammuz,46 the concept of Hashgachah Peratis explained by the Baal Shem Tov is that, not only is every particular movement of each individual created being controlled by G-d through Hashgachah Peratis, but that, moreover, the particular movements of these individual created beings “share an encompassing relationship with the intent of creation as a whole…. Even one movement of a single blade of grass fulfills G-d’s intent for the creation [as a whole].”47 This approach also grants us a new [and deeper] conception of the Hashgachah Peratis that controls man.
[To explain:] The opinions which maintain that Hashgachah Peratis controls only humans, [explain that] inanimate matter, plants, and animals are controlled by Hashgachah Klallis. (“[G-d’s] providence encompasses the species as a whole, but not every individual member.”48) Nevertheless, this involves only those matters that concern inanimate objects, plants, and animals themselves. When, however, a particular event concerning (inanimate matter, plants, and animals) will affect man, these opinions also agree that the particular event is controlled by Hashgachah Peratis. [They differ concerning the following point.] According to their conception:49
G-d will not decree that these particular fish will die or live. Instead, He will decree that this person’s concerns and livelihood…. Thus Divine providence does encompass a person with regard to his livestock, e.g., will his ox fatten?… Will his jug break?….
According to their conception, Hashgachah Peratis is focused on man, because he is the ultimate purpose of the creation (which was brought into being “for the sake of the Jewish people”). As a consequence, Hashgachah Peratis encompasses all of man’s concerns (including the inanimate matter, plants, and animals [which affect him]).
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God created the world.
Man invented the wheel.
God gave man the potential to invent a wheel.
Man invented it with his God-given intellect.
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The timing of an invention and its succesful implementation is up to G-d.
Outside of a narrow area of G-d given free-will between good and evil within our heads, we may well be largely automatonous, including most of our thoughts, despite this world having been deliberately constructed to appear to the contrary; see "All the World's a Stage", Alter Rebbe, Holiday Maamarim 2008 ch17.
Just like the galaxies, stars and planets orbit with relentless military precison on the macro-scale, and the atoms and sub-atomic particles orbit with relentless military precision on the micro-scale, so too are all human events, even the seemingly most petty, especially gentile events, although it may appear at this time to be chaotic, also occurring with relentless military precision - if only we could see the whole picture, which we will at the End Time.
The seminal spark of thought for a new invention comes direct from Hashem - ה עושה חדשות - "It is Hashem who makes knew things" - as we say in Shacharis. The inventor has the free-will to develop the idea for the good or evil, for the benefit or detriment of mankind, to serve the Creator or for his personal aggrandisement. It is well known that most succesful inventors were big believers in G-d and humbly attributed their inspiration ("in-spire" literally means "breathing in" of the Divine spark) to Him.
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Most major discoveries are surprises and "by chance". Without Hashem & His Unpreemptable Timetable, no one invents anything, no matter how clever or simple they are: "In the 600th year of the 6000th the gates of Torah knowledge will open from above, & the wellsprings of secular knowledge from below, & will inundate the world" (Zohar I:117).
And lo & behold in and around 5600 (=1840) we had Dalton's Atomic Theory, Ampere (electricity), Laplace formulae, electric motor, electric telegraph, Faraday, electrochemistry, Joule's 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, Doppler Effect, Radio, Boolean Algebra, Pasteur & immunization, spectroscope, incandescent lamp, Mendel & genetics, periodic table of the elements, electromagnetism, Koch & microbiology, Bell & telephone, bicycle, train, typewriter, sewing machine, photography, reaper, dynamite etc etc etc!
So you are actually admitting now that we advanced technologically and scientifically in the realm of human knowledge as time has gone on. Now you are saying "God did it all, not man," which you can believe if you want (silly - this is a point of view from God's perspective, but we are man, so we see things from man's perspective!) , but nonetheless you have admitted now that we got more scientifically advanced as time has gone on. I applaud your ability to be reasonable and to acknowledge the truth.
And just as man didn't always know dynamite, photography, the sewing machine, the bicycle, the telephone, and the Doppler effect, so to man did not always know how to build structures/societies out of stone.
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Who knew more: Adam Harishon or Einstein?!
Yet Adam was naked and had no possessions or technology; whilst Einstein wore clothes, lived in a house, drove a car and derived E=mc2!
At the time of his creation, before the Fall, Adam knew all about houses, clothes, cars and E=mc2, and much much more than we can ever dream about. But he would have laughed at them: Adam was a near-angelic being who had no need for such petty physical devices.
In the Messianic Age, mankind and the world will be restored to the level of Adam Harishon kodem hachet , and will have no need for technology or science, at all, including walking around naked once more!
There is a concept of yeridas hadoros - a relentless decline in the generations: physically, mentally and spiritually.
The rabbis say that the invention of the printing press was sent from Above only in the 15th c, because so many cartloads of hand-written Talmuds had been burnt, that knowledge of the Toral sh'baal Peh was literally in danger of going lost, and men's memories were becoming fallible.
Hashem in His mercy bestows inventions, and the inspiration to invent them, to support men's declining spiritual, physical and mental abilities, only when they are needed. If they are not needed according to His Plan, the inspiration won't come, or the invention won't succeed.
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Who knew more: Adam Harishon or Einstein?!
Yet Adam was naked and had no possessions or technology; whilst Einstein wore clothes, lived in a house, drove a car and derived E=mc2!
At the time of his creation, before the Fall, Adam knew all about houses, clothes, cars and E=mc2,
Source?
and much much more than we can ever dream about. But he would have laughed at them: Adam was a near-angelic being who had no need for such petty physical devices.
So do you really count "before the fall" in the history of mankind? That's rather peculiar. If Adam was "near-angelic" and he had no need for physical devices, how would he have known about them? You do realize that an angel cannot comprehend nor experience such things - physical things. Let alone derive complex mathematical equations about them.
Are you saying that the earliest mankind, let's say 1 year after the sin of Adam, knew how to build a computer but just chose to ignore that 'petty' technology? LOL, you sound like a joke. But this is no laughing matter. Because you don't realize how stupid this sounds. The earliest mankind didn't build computers because they didn't know how and couldn't figure out how based on the knowledge available to them. Even the notion of this was completely foreign. That is not a slight on earliest mankind, only a statement of inevitability based on circumstance.
If you want to say that the reason mankind wasn't privy to this knowledge, why they didn't know how to design a computer, was because God determined that spiritually they did not need such things in their lives, and mankind would only be suited to such knowledge later in the stage of history - be my guest. A strange way of looking at things, but nobody can say you're wrong. But don't tell me that they knew but just felt superior to computers so chose not to build them. See, there's a fine line between sounding really insane, and just sounding overly pious. Don't cross that line.
In the Messianic Age, mankind and the world will be restored to the level of Adam Harishon kodem hachet , and will have no need for technology or science,
Really, no need for science? What does that mean exactly? Can you explain that please? Does that mean man will reject the truth? Or does it mean that we will have found all the truth we need (through science), and we won't need to search for it anymore (with more science)? Because that's what science does. It searches for the truth. So I want to be clear in what you are saying. I sincerely hope you do not mean that man will ignore the truth that science has arrived at. Because that would produce peculiar behaviors in a current-generation resident who wishes to "aspire" toward the adam ha-rishon like state, or at least push us there if we're not there yet.... catch my drift big guy?
at all, including walking around naked once more!
Don't you wish?
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There is a concept of yeridas hadoros - a relentless decline in the generations: physically, mentally and spiritually.
Physically mentally and spiritually? What do you mean by that? And when you explain what you meant by that, can you then tell us, did you make that up? Come on now. Those who explain "yeridas hadoros" do not claim that science goes backward and that current man knows less about the physical world and its inner workings than the iron age man did. Nor that Iron age or stone age never took place. Don't desecrate Torah, please. (I'm sure you will now quote a 20th century reactionary anti-science fundamentalist who wrote screed against common knowledge, common sense, and truth, in the guise of "Torah" and try to pass that off as if it is ancient Judaic outlook or in any way connected to our mesorah. Please refrain from this. The 20th century reactionary innovations are not the same as ancient tradition. If you have a real source, bring it. Don't bring polemics).
Let's start with something very simple. By the time of the baalei Tosafoth (c 1100-1200), some of the medical prescriptions in Talmud were already outdated due to improved knowledge in those areas. So the baalei Tosafoth recommended not to follow those medical advices from the Talmud, that they do not apply to us. Does this make sense to you that medical practice got worse? If it really did get worse, then we should be following the Talmudic medical advice because we would have preserved the "better" medical knowledge of earlier man and could employ that amidst our current "fallen" state with regards to medical science. Addarabba. The opposite is the case. Medicine improved, and the old methods preserved in Talmud from earlier, less scientifically knowledgable man were pushed aside.
The rabbis say that the invention of the printing press was sent from Above only in the 15th c, because so many cartloads of hand-written Talmuds had been burnt, that knowledge of the Toral sh'baal Peh was literally in danger of going lost,
Nonsense. There was no such danger. Do you realize how many extant manuscripts there were at that time? In Yemen alone, the Yemenites preserved handwritten manuscripts of not only the Talmud and Torah but also works of Rambam, midrashim and others, straight through to the 21st century! In all that time they never knew a printing press existed, nor did they care to find out about it or use it. They were able to preserve Torah she baal peh the old-fashioned way. And this is only one example.
At times in history in some places gentile hordes burnt talmud, but we never "ran out of copies." And that did NOT happen in every place. They were not burned in every major place that Jews lived.
and men's memories were becoming fallible.
Completely false. Rav David HaLivni could recite Shas by heart in the concentration camps. The Rogatchover Rebbe - would you say his memory was "fallible" ? Please. How about Rav Ovadia Yosef of today. He has a "fallible memory" ? Rav Chaim Kanievsky? Come on. Printed or handwritten, they could remember things then and people can remember things now. There was not a danger that all of oral torah (already written down) would be lost. What you are saying is a fable.
Hashem in His mercy bestows inventions, and the inspiration to invent them, to support men's declining spiritual, physical and mental abilities, only when they are needed. If they are not needed according to His Plan, the inspiration won't come, or the invention won't succeed.
You are again contradicting yourself. Please operate within the realm of logic. If man NEEDS a new invention to "come down from above" to support his spiritual and otherwise decline, that just proves that the new invention is an IMPROVEMENT over man's previous technological state. (You are saying first he's spiritually high in 1980, doesn't need much technological aid, then he falls a bit spiritually by 1990 and needs a little "boost" to counteract that or compensate for it, so Hashem drops a wireless device on us, or what have you). You are implicitly agreeing to what I said that scientific achievement and discovery INCREASES as time moves forward.
If you want to say that that scientific improvement is necessary to support and bolster mankind as it spirals into moral decay and/or spiritual decline over time, that's fine. You still admit that basic fundamental truth that scientific improvement occurs with time. To deny this is to deny reality, which is a desecration of the Torah. And look, you can't really deny it because faced with sufficient challenge, your words have admitted to my premises. Now open your eyes and acknowledge that you have done so.
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I would have commented ages ago, but it's apparent that there's a lot of misuse of information here, and I don't want to make anybody feel bad.
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To be honest I have heard things explained as Wonga is relating.
The invention of the video camera may be to remind us that there is an eye which is always watching us, the telephone to remind us that there is an ear that listens... I understand these mahshals and also know that progress is divine... Every technology has a reason to remind us of Hashem.
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The timing of an invention and its succesful implementation is up to G-d.
Outside of a narrow area of G-d given free-will between good and evil within our heads,
I also find it rather peculiar that you define "free will" as limited to something within our heads. The classic sources refer to free will in the sense of actions and deeds carried out in the world. Otherwise there is no credit for mitzvot, and no punishment for sin, Chas VeShalom. Because my action was carried out not by me, but by God, God forbid. The entire underpinnings of Judaism are uprooted with such twisted hashkafa
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To be honest I have heard things explained as Wonga is relating.
That's the tragedy of it all. He had to get his twisted hashkafa from somewhere, and so he can't be the only one who subscribes to these nonsensical ideas, unfortunately.
The invention of the video camera may be to remind us that there is an eye which is always watching us, the telephone to remind us that there is an ear that listens... I understand these mahshals and also know that progress is divine... Every technology has a reason to remind us of Hashem.
But this is not saying what wonga said. He said there was no such thing as the stone age. And that ancient man knew these technologies but decided not to bother with them. And that Hashem invented these things.
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My understanding is that Hashem gave man intellect in able to be able to discover and invent technology. But there is a divine aspect to every new technology and it is only because Hashem has created this intellect of man, which allows the invention to be revealed.
I am not sure if that is what he was trying to say originally. I do believe that there was a time when humanity did not see science like we do today. But I also think that today we put as much faith in science as we did idolatry. I think that progress is great as long as we learn from the past and apply it to our life.
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The ancients were were more skilled and intelligent than us. That science and inventions have exploded since the Industrial Revolution 1840 (5600AM) was foretold in the Zohar. It was a gift of rachmonus
It seems the inherent contradiction was glaring from earlier on in the thread but I managed to miss it somehow. If they were more skilled and intelligent, why did the Zohar predict an explosion of inventions (or so you claim it predicts) to arrive so late in history? It should have predicted an implosion, and a complete void of scientific progress. If the zohar predicts what you say it does, it lends support to my words.
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First of all, can you answer the simple question already posed to you: in what year B.C.E. do you believe Adam Harishon lived?
Are you saying that the earliest mankind, let's say 1 year after the sin of Adam, knew how to build a computer but just chose to ignore that 'petty' technology?
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First of all, can you answer the simple question already posed to you: in what year B.C.E. do you believe Adam Harishon lived?
Are you saying that the earliest mankind, let's say 1 year after the sin of Adam, knew how to build a computer but just chose to ignore that 'petty' technology?
Why must you change the subject? I guess I must be right.
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This is not changing the subject: it is the core of the subject!
Do you believe that Adam Harishon lived 6000 years ago, and that there has been a devolution since then?
Or do you believe that modern man is the result of an evolution up from sub-human ape-like hominids over the last 3 million years?
Why must you change the subject? I guess I must be right.
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This is still going on?
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Why must you change the subject? I guess I must be right.
This is not changing the subject: it is the core of the subject!
Do you believe that Adam Harishon lived 6000 years ago,
Yes.
and that there has been a devolution since then?
"Devolution" in what way? If spiritually yes, and no. There was a spiritual/ethical decline until Matan Torah at Mt Sinai where there was a tikkun/partial tikkun of Adam haRishon, and there was obviously a peak in spirituality/connection with G-d at that event. So no it was not just a straight decline from Adam HaRishon. And if you mean a "devolution" in terms of scientific knowledge, the obvious answer is no, as has been belabored in this thread ad nauseam. The science of mankind has been always improving since G-d created man. As time goes on, man develops more and better science but will never reach G-d's infinite knowledge and understanding of the deepest secrets of the universe in the finest details. Yet man strives for that goal and gets closer in an assymptotic fashion, never to actually reach that destination.
Or do you believe that modern man is the result of an evolution up from sub-human ape-like hominids over the last 3 million years?
False. Adam HaRishon was most likely a result of evolution from other hominids (homo habilis, homo erectus, what have you). Modern man is a continuation of the first man, Adam Harishon, created as a species set apart by Hashem when he put a neshama inside and gave man an intellect.
Obviously there was a fallen state of Adam HaRishon, and at the sin of the golden calf man fell down a notch. And mankind's morality is eroding. But none of this has to do with what you asked here. Most certainly there was evolution in a physical sense before Adam HaRishon, leading up to his creation. And the biggest evolutionary leap of all was G-d placing a neshama in man and creating him as a species apart to have domain over the world. Did the early hominids that became Adam HaRishon originally evolve from ape-like species? Possibly. But none of that was without G-d's direction, and there is obviously no comparison between man (adam harishon and onward) with any other species. It was a quantum leap.
And if you claim that none of this Divine directed evolution occurred prior to creation of man, then you are asserting that G-d put the evidence of this having happened (it's an overwhelming amount of evidence) into the ground to "pretend" or to fool us. This is not logical. Nor is it believable to any Jew that has seen and/or studied some of the evidence behind evolution to be told such a fantastical idea that G-d planted bones in the ground to trick us or to be told that it's all a lie or the scientists made it up. Luckily for this type of Jew, it is within reason to allow for evolution and this can fit within the Jewish sources without undermining Jewish belief. There is room for evolution in the sources regarding maaseh bereshith. So there is no need to resort to far-fetched claims.
That being said, an unsuitable answer (bone-trickery) may be suitable to those who are not so learned in these matters and do not delve into this matter in any complex way. The problem is for those of us who have any exposure to other knowledge, it requires a more complex investigation that the unsuitable (G-d is tricking us) answer does not suffice. But really, there is no problem if evolution occurred.
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No human bone, artifact or record can be positively dated as being older than 10,000 years.
There is no evidence that our ancestors were apes or ape-like creatures, and no fossils have ever been found to link human beings with anything other than human beings.
The entire concept of man's evolution from an ape-like creature is a phantasm, and all the once-sensationalised "missing-links" such as Cro-Magnon Man, Peking Man, Neanderthal Man, Java Man, Orce Man, Fontechevade Man, Wadjak Man, Grimaldi Man, Olduvai Man, Foxhall Man, Nutcracker Man, Swanscombe Man, Leaky's 1470 Man, Heidelberg Man, Galley Hill Man, Piltdown Man etc.etc., were either 100% ape, 100% homo sapiens or 100% hoax!
According to Jewish tradition (Sanhedrin 109) the punishment of one-third of the builders of the Tower of Babel was their miraculous transformation into apes: devolution not evolution!
(https://www.fpbookroom.org/acatalog/ApeMen-FactOrFallacy.jpg)
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No human bone, artifact or record can be positively dated as being older than 10,000 years.
Whether what you say here is true or not, 10,000 years is still older than 5,770. You created your own quandary here.
There is no evidence that our ancestors were apes or ape-like creatures, and no fossils have ever been found to link human beings with anything other than human beings.
You live in denial of clearly established fact. If you don't know about these ideas and don't understand reality, then just claim ignorance. Don't run around trying to say all the scientists are wrong about what was found in the ground, and you some guy with an anti-science reactionary handbook cooked up in the 20th century have found the real truth.
When you say OUR ANCESTORS you are being deceptive. "Ancestors" the concept, refers to those other humans who we descend from, most notably our Avoth, Abraham Yitzhak and Yaakov, whose example we try to follow in our lives. So you're right that these people were... people. If you mean our "evolutionary ancestors" as in, what primitive species the human being developed from, then what you said is completely false. There IS evidence for this whether you like it or not. Whether you want to "believe" the facts or not, the facts exist.
Overwhelming evidence can be denied by a person, and you have that right to do so, but don't expect other logical and rational thinking people to always (or ever) deny overwhelming evidence like you desire to do, for the sake of a unitary dogma you want Judaism to be, especially when they grew up exposed to these ideas. You will come off as (excuse me for saying) an idiot, you desecrate the Torah, and that is the opposite (obviously) of what you are trying to do. You may not like this or want to hear this, but that is the reality. To a scientifically-inclined person you make a mockery of Judaism by insisting that Judaism demands a denial of science and a denial of truth. Judaism does NOT demand this of us. And it's not monolithic as much as you may want it to be. Judaism is a truth system.
For a person ignorant of science and who grew up only knowing basic postulates of faith and has emuna peshuta (simple faith), he can believe that maybe you are right, and maybe I'm right, but it's irrelevant - no nafka mina. On the other hand, a person who grew up with some operational knowledge of science and the method by which science arrives at the truth, and knowing these ideas that have come up in archaeology, he can't possibly believe that you are correct to deny reality.
The entire concept of man's evolution from an ape-like creature is a phantasm,
You are merely presenting us with your wishful thinking. You cannot actually disprove the science that has uncovered these facts.
According to Jewish tradition (Sanhedrin 109) the punishment of one-third of the builders of the Tower of Babel was their miraculous transformation into apes: devolution not evolution!
Are you honestly claiming that apes didn't exist as a species until the Tower of babel? That can also be readily disproved. In fact, it is disproved by what you yourself wrote above. You claimed that these ancient (tens of thousands) year old archaeological findings were 100% ape or 100% human. That admits that apes existed far more than 5770 years ago, before man was created. But here's a more interesting question for you. If any of those findings were 100% homosapien, what were they doing roaming around the earth before 5770 years ago?
(https://www.fpbookroom.org/acatalog/ApeMen-FactOrFallacy.jpg)
Don't cite stupidity/philosophy/wishful thinking here and pass it off as science.
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Most shlomei emunei yisroel like the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Miller, Rav M Kahane, Rav BZ Kahane etc held by a world only thousands of years old created in Six Days of 24 hours each.
There are kabbalistic sources that might be interpreted to support a longer time frame and the existence and destruction of "previous worlds". Prof Gerald Schroeder claims that according to Einstein's Theory of Relativity, the universe can be both 6000 years old and 16 billion years old at the same time!
Others say that those sources are referring to the non-physical Olam HaTohu and the sheviras hakeilim.
To me the evidence of Creation Science and of a recent creation far outways that of Evolutionary "Science" and of an unguided Big Bang untold aeons ago.
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To me the evidence of Creation Science and of a recent creation far outways that of Evolutionary "Science" and of an unguided Big Bang untold aeons ago.
Well, maybe "to you." But not to me. And even so, that does not make a different approach assur (forbidden).