JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on December 17, 2009, 05:53:56 AM
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Now that his parnossah is threatened, it looks like Melamed is backing down
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930884131&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Rav Kahane would never backdown on his principles.
R.Kahane was fortunate in having generous US benefactors, & was never dependent on the Israeli government for monies and who would thereby pressure him, like poor Melamed.
Melamed's ability to put the chicken on his shabbos family table each week is directly dependent on gloating Erev Rav like Barak, and unless he's a gilgul of a Biblical warrior, as R.Kahane was, he'll be eating humble pie.
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בס"ד
What is wrong with you? are you even Jewish? are you a dude or a gal?
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You underestimate the Erev Rav.
If Melamed's call for "insubordination" really took hold in Zahal, he would quickly be 'taken off the scene', one way or another.
The Erev Rav would jus' love a bloody confrontation, so that they can close down the right-wing yeshivahs and even shut down the entire settler movement. To achieve this, they are not averse to sending in disguised agent provacateurs, or bribing/threatening/brainwashing/drugging heretofore good guys, as the "Meraglim" footage on Youtube shows.
Sharon would have loved just one of our boys in Gush Katif to have opened fire on the Yasamniks and Yamasniks in 2005, thereby giving him a handle to send in his tanks and helicopters and literally take out all our youth. It goes that deep!
The Erev Rav of today are consciously or unconsciously playing out their meta-historical role that have had had since the Exodus from Egypt: to undermine True Torah (what we call "Kahanism"), to thwart Jewish possession of the True Heartland of Eretz Yisrael, and to keep separate the two Moshiachs, as the Vilna Gaon writes in his Kol Hator, and as quoted by Rav Kahane in his "The Jewish Idea".
And the closer we get to the Geulah and their ultimate demise, the more vicious and desperate they will get - "You ain't seen nuffin yet".........!
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בס''ד
Nonsense. The Erev Rav are evil traitors, but the conspiracy theories that you and Barry Chamish promote are ridiculous. The Erev Rav would not try to murder HaRav Melamed chas vechalila because to do so is too risky. The vast majority of Israeli Jews would not support the murder of rabbis. And Amona proved that violent confrontations are bad for the Erev Rav because most secular Israelis do not have the stomach for such violence between Jews.
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The Erev Rav would jus' love a bloody confrontation,
Oh no they wouldn't.
What they would really love is if we keep backing down and keep surrendering to them and if the traitors of yesha council and others keep refusing to do what's necessary. THAT is what they would love. A bloody confrontation is their worst nightmare. And a bloody confrontation will be their worst nightmare, just like it was for the British.
so that they can close down the right-wing yeshivahs
If they tried to "close down" yeshivas (how? How is that even possible? They wouldn't dare do this. I don't see a single yeshiva that they've shut down).... If they even tried this, they would truly spark a civil war. And in that case, they are finished.
and even shut down the entire settler movement.
They are already actively trying and doing this! And what enables them to? When there is no resistance and no backbone amongst the so-called leaders of the settlers to stick it to the govt and give them a run for their money. If they stand up to the govt strong enough, they will back down like they back down to everyone (arabs included) because they have no choice but to back down. A strong enough resistance to compel concession by the govt involves very serious means.
To achieve this, they are not averse to sending in disguised agent provacateurs, or bribing/threatening/brainwashing/drugging heretofore good guys, as the "Meraglim" footage on Youtube shows.
Yes, Meraglim shows that they are desperate to AVOID a true conflict. THAT is why they bribe and cajole and blackmail and infiltrate the yesha council and the leadership. Because they wish to neuter the resistance. Because they are afraid for what will happen if they don't! Didn't you view the part of the video where the police indicate that a strong resistance in one place will undermine the entire operation? They were testing the waters there, and once that was dispersed (with aid of the traitors), they felt they could carry out the rest with ease.
Sharon would have loved just one of our boys in Gush Katif to have opened fire on the Yasamniks and Yamasniks in 2005, thereby giving him a handle to send in his tanks and helicopters and literally take out all our youth. It goes that deep!
This is fantasy.
The Erev Rav of today are consciously or unconsciously playing out their meta-historical role that have had had since the Exodus from Egypt: to undermine True Torah (what we call "Kahanism"), to thwart Jewish possession of the True Heartland of Eretz Yisrael, and to keep separate the two Moshiachs, as the Vilna Gaon writes in his Kol Hator, and as quoted by Rav Kahane in his "The Jewish Idea".
And? So what? Couch it in whatever terms you want, mystical or otherwise, it is our duty to resist their evil, not to imagine them indestructable and therefore neuter ourselves before they even get the chance to infiltrate.
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I think it is a shame that certain rabbis, including those on the "council" of the hesder yeshiva program are paid Israeli-govt employees and therefore act as agents of the state rather than what they should be: rabbis without achrayot who are committed to truth and the Torah above all else. It seems that there is a strong faction of mamlachtiut within the leadership of the hesder program that is drowning out the other voices. How did this mamlachtiut (state worship) heresy become so widespread and pervasive?
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
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because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
That didn't stop David Raziel, Menachem Begin, and thousands of Jewish underground fighters/supporters in the 1930's-40's. That did not stop even the Haganah who, in the most drastic circumstances that even they could not deny or wish away, united for a 10 month period in a united resistance with the Irgun and Lechi and fought against the British.
The galuth has ended. It may be reassuring to you to give mystical explanations to rationalize inaction on the part of certain Jews, but that says nothing about what is possible or what is impossible. If the Jews will it, it is no dream. If people become resolved to actively resist in measures more practical than merely marching with signs and getting beaten by police, they can achieve great things just like we have in the past. The only question is willingness. Do not purvey this sheker that there is some mystical fairy-dust cloud that will spoil our plans and ruin us if we try anything daring. On the contrary. God will give our warriors help.
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בס"ד
You underestimate the Erev Rav.
If Melamed's call for "insubordination" really took hold in Zahal, he would quickly be 'taken off the scene', one way or another.
The Erev Rav would jus' love a bloody confrontation, so that they can close down the right-wing yeshivahs and even shut down the entire settler movement. To achieve this, they are not averse to sending in disguised agent provacateurs, or bribing/threatening/brainwashing/drugging heretofore good guys, as the "Meraglim" footage on Youtube shows.
Sharon would have loved just one of our boys in Gush Katif to have opened fire on the Yasamniks and Yamasniks in 2005, thereby giving him a handle to send in his tanks and helicopters and literally take out all our youth. It goes that deep!
The Erev Rav of today are consciously or unconsciously playing out their meta-historical role that have had had since the Exodus from Egypt: to undermine True Torah (what we call "Kahanism"), to thwart Jewish possession of the True Heartland of Eretz Yisrael, and to keep separate the two Moshiachs, as the Vilna Gaon writes in his Kol Hator, and as quoted by Rav Kahane in his "The Jewish Idea".
And the closer we get to the Geulah and their ultimate demise, the more vicious and desperate they will get - "You ain't seen nuffin yet".........!
Not really, let's just sum it up by saying, that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis would never agree with Rabbis' murder (not talking about arrest or anything), it'd rise all religious groups up and there'd be a Holocaust for Lefties.
Now what you've posted is not true --- Rav Melamed isn't gonna give up, that's just a fraud posted and published by the Leftie media.
What the Jews have done in Amona clearly proves that the Jewish youth would not stand quiet in front of the IDF. That was only the beginning of the revolution.
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The only daring thing that would achieve anything would pertain to the Mosques of Omar and Al Aksa, and no one except a non-Jew like Michael Rohan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Michael_Rohan
would be crazy enough or have the guts to even touch them!
Without worthy leadership, we're not going anywhere fast.
In the current atmosphere, RMK and RBZK would be jailed and the key thrown away. Chaim would also be immediately jailed for "hassatah and "gazanut"", and is not being allowed in to Israel at this time, b'chasdei Hashem to preserve him, possibly for greater things: "The biggest enemy of the Jewish People is the Jewish State! In order for the People of Israel to survive, the State of Israel (ie the ideological foundations of the Medinat Yisrael as it is currently formulated) must be terminated!" (Professor Paul Eidelberg, Arutz 7 www.foundation1.org ).
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בס"ד
Actually I think that the only counter to the exile of so many Jews from Judea and Samaria is a rise from there right to the Temple Mount. It wouldn't be hard for the Jews to take over it, it'd be much harder to do so in other parts of Eastern Jerusalem.
I don't think resisting the army by force would accomplish anything.
We have 2 major fronts:
The public opinion (popularity of the Jewish idea among Jews) and finacing. The only way to take over the country is not running to the Knesset, they'd disqualify us; But rather creating a counter-elite to the rulling elite, based upon 5 major power points.
In the day Medinaht Israel will be destroyed G-D forbid, we're doomed.
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites. All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means. The same for the Russian Revolution. No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.
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The only daring thing that would achieve anything would pertain to the Mosques of Omar and Al Aksa,
Not true. Just flat out, not true.
There are many many practical measures that can be taken. Is there a willingness amongst enough people and is there a courage to act on the willingness. Those are the real questions. There is no question that many practical deeds can accomplish political goals.
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Chaim... is not being allowed in to Israel at this time, b'chasdei Hashem to preserve him, possibly for greater things:
Ludicrous. We need Chaim in Israel now more than ever. And only a Jew who expects that geula happens while watching from afar on the sidelines could possibly say that there is something "more important" to be done in the Diaspora in a critical time of need in Eretz Yisrael - in fact, those who remained in Bavel also had this attitude and it brought upon us so many sorrows. But the fact of the matter is that geula will come not on the sidelines but in land of our forefathers. Has God not made that clear to us by now? Let us lose this foolhardy and dangerously mistaken attitude of embracing the galuth.
"The biggest enemy of the Jewish People is the Jewish State! In order for the People of Israel to survive, the State of Israel (ie the ideological foundations of the Medinat Yisrael as it is currently formulated) must be terminated!" (Professor Paul Eidelberg, Arutz 7 www.foundation1.org ).
Hehehe, is Prof. Eidelberg 'daas Torah' for you now?
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites. All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means. The same for the Russian Revolution. No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.
You really should learn about the revolt against the british prior to the state of Israel being founded.... you know, the revolution that was done .... by our people. Look at where those fighters came from and the means with which they resisted the world's biggest empire.
There are countless other examples, but I mention that one specifically because for a Jew to not be well-read on those events is tragic in my opinion.
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites. All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means. The same for the Russian Revolution. No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.
Also, I fail to see how 9/11 was a "revolution."
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See the petition which many Rabbis signed in support of Rabbi Melamed. Please cease this Lashon Hara until the facts are made available.
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בס"ד
Actually I think that the only counter to the exile of so many Jews from Judea and Samaria is a rise from there right to the Temple Mount. It wouldn't be hard for the Jews to take over it, it'd be much harder to do so in other parts of Eastern Jerusalem.
That could be very groundbreaking, but I don't know that I would start with that.
I don't think resisting the army by force would accomplish anything.
We would not want a civil war either. But if we succeed in forcing them to use solely the police force for expulsions and keep the IDF out of it, there will be much less ideological (theological) opposition to the idea of resisting the police force expulsions with credible threat and potentially violent measures. IMO, the resistance never gets off the ground if it's against the IDF. And that's because of opposition WITHIN the dati camp to opposing the IDF, even "nonviolently." For this reason, I think datim refusing to serve will go a long way toward pushing the govt's hand. If 50% of the combat soldiers are datim, they will miss that and they will not want a weaker army.
We have 2 major fronts:
The public opinion (popularity of the Jewish idea among Jews) and finacing. The only way to take over the country is not running to the Knesset, they'd disqualify us; But rather creating a counter-elite to the rulling elite, based upon 5 major power points.
Very good points. And the 'Jewish idea' can be expressed in many formats.
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See the petition which many Rabbis signed in support of Rabbi Melamed. Please cease this Lashon Hara until the facts are made available.
I never made any lashon hara against Rabbi Melamed.
Please cease your accusations unless they are directed specifically against the actual offender.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134977
This article and Rabbi Melamed's comments also contradict what seems to have been said in that petition. Rabbi Melamed claims that he never encouraged protest within the IDF and actually in this article discourages the refusal of orders to expel Jews. I give him credit for standing up to Barak's tyranny, but at the same time, how can he justify his encouragement to expel Jews if the tyrants ask for it?
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See the petition which many Rabbis signed in support of Rabbi Melamed. Please cease this Lashon Hara until the facts are made available.
I never made any lashon hara against Rabbi Melamed.
Please cease your accusations unless they are directed specifically against the actual offender.
Im sorry if I was not more specific. Of course you were not saying anything negative about the Rabbi, but the original poster has made a number of accusations which are very serious. I will not continue with any accusations but I ask that we consider what we are saying. I have nothing but respect for Rabbi Melamed who must be experiencing a great deal of stress in these times.
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The Erev Rav (Mixed Multitude) are not "fairy dust": they exist. The Vilna Gaon says that the Erev Rav are a far worse enemy than Ishamel, Edom and even Amolek, and that the geulah can only occur with their defeat and physical removal from the corpus of the Am Yisrael. The Erev Rav are nominal Jews, but who have a totally different soul-root yichus. The Zohar says that there a 5 levels amongst them. Barak, who plans in mobilising most of standing Zahal against the settlers http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135090
looks like he's turning out to be one of the worst
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/43561/Barak+Preparing+For+Major+Military+Operation+To+Halt+Settlement+Construction.html
The Erev Zeir (Mixed Minitude) are another category of foe: descendants of the Egyptian magicians who joined the Am Yisrael at the time of the Exodus. Orthodox Jews who believe in Hashem and keep are all the mitzvos, but who are prepared to cede parts of Eretz Yisrael to the Yishmaelim are said to their representatives in this generation ie a substantial chunk of the Haredi world.
We will see how today's "Union of Hesder Yeshivot" meeting today goes: whether they rally round R.Melamed, or fall out in internal bickering.
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You failed to address my criticism. Erev rav are people. They are against us, so what. They are not indestructible. With Hashem's help we can defeat them and defeat any of our enemies. THAT is what you fail to comprehend.
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What I said was
"The galuth has ended. It may be reassuring to you to give mystical explanations to rationalize inaction on the part of certain Jews, but that says nothing about what is possible or what is impossible."
When you say that erev rav are impossible to defeat because they have some mystical force behind them, you are mistaken, and this leads only to a self-perpetuating philosophy of inaction and fear. It is inaction and fear which gives strength to the erev rav and gives them a stronger grip on power they wish to hold over us.
I also said " The only question is willingness. Do not purvey this sheker that there is some mystical fairy-dust cloud that will spoil our plans and ruin us if we try anything daring. On the contrary. G-d will give our warriors help."
Whether you want to call it fairy dust clouds, or mystical mojo, or call it the erev rav, it makes no difference what title it gets. The problem, your problem, is when you ascribe invincibility to it. Are you saying that the erev rav will spoil our plans automatically and destroy us if we try anything to undermine them? Chas ve shalom. Such thoughts are atrociously misguided. They are fallible like all men, and like all men they are conquered by the human spirit embedded within the Torah outlook and engaged by one of true faith.
May God give us strength.
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KWRBT, I am really sorry that you are spending so much time battling this wonga snake. I feel you are really wasting your effort, because wonga is not going to be rational. His goal is to sow anxiety, suspicion and despair among the national-religious Jews, and he will continue to do it until he is banned. There can be different motives for that. He is either:
1) Bored attention-seeking individual, or
2) leftist estabishment employee whose work is to present JTF as crazy fanatics who worship crazy australian but speak lashon hara about great Torah sage Rabbi Melamed (who is one of the few people in Israel who dares to follow Torah principles even if it leads to a direct conflict with the establishent)
3) Neturei-Karta follower whose main objective is to battle the State of Israel, the national-religious movement and its rabbis, starting from Rabbi Kook. An example of such idividual is "Yoel Elchonon" who wrote the ugly propaganda opus "Dat Ha-Tziyonut" (the religion of Zionism).
(btw it was realy sad to read it and see how a person claims to be G-d fearing, distorts facts and smear good Jews and their rabbis).
Anyways, regardless of his motives, wonga is doing a terrible thing: he attacks and defames the great rabbi Melamed while the latter is leading the resistance to the establishment's plan to use IDF soldiers in the evictions of the Jews from Judea and Samaria. This is a grave sin and lowlife snitch cowardly act.
I will be happy when he is banned forever from this forum and never allowed to come back.
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This report from the Hesder Meeting doesn't sound too good:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135101
"All the heads of the Hesder yeshivot unambiguously negate all demonstrations in the IDF, out of a desire to maintain the cohesiveness and unity of the IDF".
That only one single US-immigrant Zahal soldier refused to participate in the Gaza Deportation is scandalous!
(http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/idf_soldier_avi_bieber_1.jpg)
10 Avi Biebers could have changed history!
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" fanatics who worship crazy australian "
What does that part mean?
As for the rest, it could be that you're right. He was in too much of a rush to judgement here. It may be it turns out well, and perhaps Rabbi Melamed will not back down, nor will the "council" of hesder yeshivot. However, you must acknowledge that the possibility remains that Rabbi Melamed and other hesder yeshiva rabbis may give in. I have seen such behavior before, and I see in the words of Rabbi Druckman, that there are some who are ready to do so again, just like when their soldiers DID participate in the expulsions, which is a fact. But maybe God has blessed them with greater wisdom this time around. We shall see.
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135101
"All the heads of the Hesder yeshivot unambiguously negate all demonstrations in the IDF, out of a desire to maintain the cohesiveness and unity of the IDF".
That only one single US-immigrant Zahal soldier refused to participate in the Gaza Deportation is scandalous!
He was not the only one. Where do you get that from? And no 10 would have done nothing. There needed to be many more. And next time around I hope there will be many more than 10. If we are shooting for 10 objectors, we are finished.
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Shame to tell, but I am not aware of any other Zahal soldier who refused to obey a direct Deportation order and who was punished with jail as a result
http://atomsound.blogspot.com/2005/08/avi-bieber-vlog20.html
(http://tomasound.net/vlog/vlog20/avibieber.jpg)
If Bieber's attitude had caught on, Zahal and the Erev Rav's control of it would have become permanently unzipped.
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites. All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means. The same for the Russian Revolution. No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.
You really should learn about the revolt against the british prior to the state of Israel being founded.... you know, the revolution that was done .... by our people. Look at where those fighters came from and the means with which they resisted the world's biggest empire.
There are countless other examples, but I mention that one specifically because for a Jew to not be well-read on those events is tragic in my opinion.
That is quite presumptious of you to assume what I know or don't know about the Jewish underground of pre independence Israel. When I was younger that was one of my favorite subjects to read about. I read Menachem Begin's The Revolt. I read The Deed by Gerald Frank. I read Schmuel Katz's book on the Irgun (believe it was called "Days of Fire" that was many years ago). I was in JDL as a young person and one of the more intellectual less physical guys there. As a freshman in college I wrote a research paper on the battle of Deir Yassein.
Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving? Was Stern? I don't think so. Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family. I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers. True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy. Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.
Again revolutions are certainly not led by poor people. I will let you in on another secret. Repression does not usually lead to revolutions, in most cases it is rising expectations that cannot be fulfilled that lead to them.
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בס"ד
Secularbeliever, let's sum it all up by one question, do you live in Israel?
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" fanatics who worship crazy australian "
What does that part mean?
First off, my full point was "crazy fanatics who worship crazy australian but speak lashon hara about great Torah sage Rabbi Melamed",
with the emphasis on the second part - absolute ban on speaking bad about rabbis, and believe me, Rabbi Melamed is the last rabbi to be suspected in falsehood and collaboration with the establishment. But yes, I think that australian was just crazy and we don't need such "help". What he tried to do will be done in proper time and circumstances by proper people. With "friends" like him we don't need enemies. But again, that was not the point.
I live in Israel and I sometimes read Israeli press (which is leftist as you know). So they are in great effort to present the patriots of the Land of Israel as crazy fundamentalist ayatollahs (sometimes they directly call them so), "dark medieval obstinates", "Jewish nazis", etc.
But it is not so easy because the Jews for the most part don't buy this propaganda. Most Israelis think that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, even though they don't speak that openly and give that question top priority. Therefore the establishment uses other methods to smear the Jews of Yesha in the eyes of the other Israelis.
For example, they may falsely claim that Israel spends huge sums to protect the settlers from arabs (but they are silent when Israel has to spend tenfold sums to handle the arab missiles and terrorism launched from the areas wherefrom the Jews were evicted). But they are also desperately seek cases when some resident of Yesha did or said something wrong or dubious, then they magnify the gravity of what was done tenfold, and imply that most settlers do so. This combined with the previous "arguments" may sound more persuasive.
And when they fail to find faults among Yesha Jews, they use their agents to incite some Jews (mostly young ones) to do that. I don't mean here the resistance to evictions or other acts of struggle for the Land, but banal criminal acts or, as wonga does, weird ideas that look like Torah-inspired but in reality are absolutely crazy and contradict Halacha.
The latter is very dangerous becuase it gives some ground to the forementioned claims of the establishment about the craziness of the heroic Jews of Yesha. An absolute lie cannot last long but when it is mixed with some truth (even with a very little bit of it), it can endure longer and be more persuasive.
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As for the rest, it could be that you're right. He was in too much of a rush to judgement here. It may be it turns out well, and perhaps Rabbi Melamed will not back down, nor will the "council" of hesder yeshivot. However, you must acknowledge that the possibility remains that Rabbi Melamed and other hesder yeshiva rabbis may give in. I have seen such behavior before, and I see in the words of Rabbi Druckman, that there are some who are ready to do so again, just like when their soldiers DID participate in the expulsions, which is a fact. But maybe G-d has blessed them with greater wisdom this time around. We shall see.
Indeed, there are rabbis who are prone to give in to the authority but Rabbi Melamed is the last one to be suspected in that. There are hardly a rabbi in Israel who is more loyal to the G-d's truth and Land than him. He is the highest authority among those who inspire IDF soldiers not to evict Jews from their homes and resist such criminal orders. And even if it will look like he had to give in, we had better assume that he did so to prevent worse things.
Remember, even in Israel we are still living in galut and not everything that must be done, can be done.
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בס"ד
We don't live in the Galut in Israel. The fact that we behave like it is doesn't mean anything, it's (most of us) our own choice, an irrational fear and will to be vassals of the Gentiles.
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בס"ד
Secularbeliever, let's sum it all up by one question, do you live in Israel?
No I don't but what does that have to do with the social and economic conditions that coincide with revolutions?
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בס"ד
We don't live in the Galut in Israel. The fact that we behave like it is doesn't mean anything, it's (most of us) our own choice, an irrational fear and will to be vassals of the Gentiles.
Yes we do.
You are right that we should be not be willing to be vassals of the Gentiles, and you are right that many Jews indeed do so. Galut is not an excuse for cowardice.
But our Sages say that this galut will end only when the Messiah comes and the Third Temple is rebuilt. If you call night "day", it won't turn to day. We must not deny the hard reality. Our goal is to admit it and do all we can to bring an end to it. Struggle for the Jewish sovereignity in Judea and Samaria is one of the means to end the galut.
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What would Rabbi Kahane say about the Hesder Rabbis statement?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930903102&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
What would he have advised them to say?
Would the Hesder Union rabbis, despite their right-wing ideology, their beards and their big "Kook"-style kippot, even have sat with Rav Kahane on the same table?!
What would R.Kahane himself have said as Rosh Yeshivah of the "Yeshivah of the Jewish Idea" if it was a member of the Hesder Union, and was receiving money from the government without which it could not be able to continue, and if he was not able to get money from abroad?
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Only men who are hungry, lean, mean and desperate can really revolt ie be prepared to physically lay their lives on the line, as in every revolution.
Most people in the West will not revolt, because..... there is just too much food: they are too obese to riot, their bellies are swollen, and they have satiated bank accounts!
The Jew, including the Israeli Jew, is in an even worse state, because in addition to being satiated, after 2000 years of golus the Jew is in a state of moyrah, and terrified of being physically injured: "The second skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
But there may yet be hope in achduss as per this report
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135825.html
If the Erev Rav perceive they are losing control of Zahal, and their power is starting to become unzipped, including the media, taxation system, education system, judicial system etc, they are literally prepared to liquidate the State of Israel: "The State of Israel survives because of me; and if I want to, it will end because of me!" (Shimon Peres).http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135056
Actually revolutions are typically led and peopled by elites. All of the 19 911 hijackers were from families of at least reasonable means. The same for the Russian Revolution. No poverty among the Lenins, Trotskys, etc.
You really should learn about the revolt against the british prior to the state of Israel being founded.... you know, the revolution that was done .... by our people. Look at where those fighters came from and the means with which they resisted the world's biggest empire.
There are countless other examples, but I mention that one specifically because for a Jew to not be well-read on those events is tragic in my opinion.
That is quite presumptious of you to assume what I know or don't know about the Jewish underground of pre independence Israel.
Well, if so, you would know that revolution doesn't only come from super wealthy elites. And that was certainly not the case there. So the question is why did you try to claim that? Otherwise I never would have presumed anything...
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Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving? Was Stern? I don't think so. Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family. I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers. True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy. Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.
This misses the point. Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael. You think he had an american express on him when he got there? So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there. They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions. Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth? And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes. Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain. But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt? The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt. If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...
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" fanatics who worship crazy australian "
What does that part mean?
First off, my full point was "crazy fanatics who worship crazy australian but speak lashon hara about great Torah sage Rabbi Melamed",
with the emphasis on the second part - absolute ban on speaking bad about rabbis, and believe me, Rabbi Melamed is the last rabbi to be suspected in falsehood and collaboration with the establishment. But yes, I think that australian was just crazy and we don't need such "help". What he tried to do will be done in proper time and circumstances by proper people. With "friends" like him we don't need enemies. But again, that was not the point.
I have no idea what you're talking about. "that australian?" What Australian? And what did he try to do?
I live in Israel and I sometimes read Israeli press (which is leftist as you know). So they are in great effort to present the patriots of the Land of Israel as crazy fundamentalist ayatollahs (sometimes they directly call them so), "dark medieval obstinates", "Jewish nazis", etc.
But it is not so easy because the Jews for the most part don't buy this propaganda. Most Israelis think that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, even though they don't speak that openly and give that question top priority. Therefore the establishment uses other methods to smear the Jews of Yesha in the eyes of the other Israelis.
For example, they may falsely claim that Israel spends huge sums to protect the settlers from arabs (but they are silent when Israel has to spend tenfold sums to handle the arab missiles and terrorism launched from the areas wherefrom the Jews were evicted). But they are also desperately seek cases when some resident of Yesha did or said something wrong or dubious, then they magnify the gravity of what was done tenfold, and imply that most settlers do so. This combined with the previous "arguments" may sound more persuasive.
And when they fail to find faults among Yesha Jews, they use their agents to incite some Jews (mostly young ones) to do that. I don't mean here the resistance to evictions or other acts of struggle for the Land, but banal criminal acts or, as wonga does, weird ideas that look like Torah-inspired but in reality are absolutely crazy and contradict Halacha.
The latter is very dangerous becuase it gives some ground to the forementioned claims of the establishment about the craziness of the heroic Jews of Yesha. An absolute lie cannot last long but when it is mixed with some truth (even with a very little bit of it), it can endure longer and be more persuasive.
I hear what you're saying here.
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But our Sages say that this galut will end only when the Messiah comes and the Third Temple is rebuilt. If you call night "day", it won't turn to day. We must not deny the hard reality. Our goal is to admit it and do all we can to bring an end to it. Struggle for the Jewish sovereignity in Judea and Samaria is one of the means to end the galut.
What you've just described is not necessarily when "galut ends" but when full redemption is upon us. Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel. Israel by definition is NOT galut. One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically. That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there. There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history. To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.
We have obligations as a people and as individuals. We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet. But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah. That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.
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What would Rabbi Kahane say about the Hesder Rabbis statement?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260930903102&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
What would he have advised them to say?
Would the Hesder Union rabbis, despite their right-wing ideology, their beards and their big "Kook"-style kippot, even have sat with Rav Kahane on the same table?!
What would R.Kahane himself have said as Rosh Yeshivah of the "Yeshivah of the Jewish Idea" if it was a member of the Hesder Union, and was receiving money from the government without which it could not be able to continue, and if he was not able to get money from abroad?
Wonga: I can see that the statement issued, which you quoted earlier from the INN piece, was one of a compromise that somehow fit together the point of view of various voices within the Hesder union. The fact is that not all of them are saying the same thing, and they don't all view the issue the same way. That they were able to issue a united statement in spite of that and present a united front of the Torah which will not bow down to the demands of a tyrant, is a big kiddush Hashem. Now the ball is in barak's court. Depending on what he does next, then we will see what the hesder union is really prepared to do. And I guarantee you that some rabbis are more willing than others to do certain things. Here is proof from the article you cited:
"One option under consideration is for either the union or Har Bracha to petition the High Court of Justice against Barak's decision. Some of the more radical rabbis are pushing the Union of Hesder Yeshivot to issue an ultimatum to Barak that they will indefinitely postpone the enlistment of their students into the military unless he reverses his decision regarding Har Bracha. "
What I highlighted in bold is what I think Rabbi Kahane ZT"L would get behind although no one can say for sure since he is no longer with us. It is what I personally think would be the more logical, pragmatic and politically beneficial approach to take at this time. And by politically beneficial I mean to the religious zionist sector, if they are able to achieve a concession by the govt to take the army out of expulsion and other civilian activities in addition to just getting Har Bracha yeshiva reinstituted. That in itself will teach the priceless lesson of self-respect and self-pride that so often unexpectedly and miraculously comes to those who do not comprehend their own strength, that we were able to put a demand on the table and got the govt to surrender to an ultimatum. If it can work with regards to Har Bracha yeshiva, it can work with regards to other things as well. Those who were sitting in fear with the conviction that we must do what the govt says and comply in all cases because of supposed powerlessness or religious duty (or galut mentality) will be taught a powerful lesson.
"The five rabbis who make up the Governing Council of the Union of Hesder Yeshivot belong to the more moderate camp in religious Zionism. Druckman, who heads the union, was one of the leading rabbis who openly and strongly opposed any forms of insubordination during the Gaza disengagement in 2005. "
It seems the 5 on the governing council may be more lefty, but there are many voices who came out vociferously in favor of Rabbi Melamed's position.
And here is one example from an INN article from today:
The head of the Hesder yeshiva in the Negev city of Arad, Rabbi Yinon Ilani, has already announced his position, however: “If the Hesder Union does not issue a strong, unambiguous statement to the effect that rabbis are not under the army’s thumb, our yeshiva will be forced to quit the Union, despite the heavy price we will have to pay.”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135093
This issue is not so clearcut. You also have Rabbi Waldman who spoke out in favor of Rabbi Melamed, and you have other more hardline rabbis like Rabbi Dov Lior and Rabbi Ariel.... Is there any question what their views are? The only question is if there are enough of like voices to drown out the lefty "moderates" who want to "Compromise" with the govt at any cost.
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Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel. Israel by definition is NOT galut. One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically. That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.
We've just celebrated Hanukah. This holiday teaches us that a situation is possible when the Jewish people resides in Israel and still it is considered galut. galut Yavan = Greece exile. During the Greece exlie, Jews lived in Israel but were dominated by Greek political dictate and their pagan worldview. Present situation in Israel is very similar to those times.
There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history. To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.
This is certainly true and we must thank G-d for it. Still, it is not the end of the galut (see above).
We have obligations as a people and as individuals. We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet. But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah. That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.
The only thing that limits us is Halacha. Specifically, we must follow the teachings of the rabbis of our generation (let alone speaking lashon hara about them, as wonga does). This is the only and ultimate limit, it is true for all times, both galut and geulah. All the other options are self-defeating.
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בס"ד
Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel. Israel by definition is NOT galut. One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically. That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.
We've just celebrated Hanukah. This holiday teaches us that a situation is possible when the Jewish people resides in Israel and still it is considered galut. galut Yavan = Greece exile. During the Greece exlie, Jews lived in Israel but were dominated by Greek political dictate and their pagan worldview. Present situation in Israel is very similar to those times.
There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history. To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.
This is certainly true and we must thank G-d for it. Still, it is not the end of the galut (see above).
We have obligations as a people and as individuals. We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet. But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah. That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.
The only thing that limits us is Halacha. Specifically, we must follow the teachings of the rabbis of our generation (let alone speaking lashon hara about them, as wonga does). This is the only and ultimate limit, it is true for all times, both galut and geulah. All the other options are self-defeating.
As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?
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As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?
Obviously, Galut Yavan was only spiritually because physically the Jews stayed in Israel. As for whether it was only by choice of many Jews, I am not sure. Certainly it happened because many Jews wanted to give up the word of G-d and replace it with foreign worldview and lifestyle, but the same you can say about the other exiles. I think we should take into account the fact that unlike the other opressors, the Greeks didn't have problem with the physical existence of the Jews. They fought the Jewish faith in one G-d, His absolute reign in the world and Divine origin of Torah and the commandments. Their ultimate goal was to destroy the Jewish soul, not the body. Therefore they didn't try to banish Jews from Israel. Nevertheless, their dictate and dominance was hard and cruel and I am not sure if the Jews were able to end it anytime. If only we had such righteous and determined leaders as Maccabees today..
Yes, I guess Rome exile started with the destruction of the Second Temple (or even before that). Obviously, when the Jews were banished from Israel later, the situation became much worse.
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בס"ד
As I remember Galut Yavan was only spiritually (by choic of many Jews). Also, I understand you consider Galut Roma to be started in 66 לפני ספירתם השגויה?
Obviously, Galut Yavan was only spiritually because physically the Jews stayed in Israel. As for whether it was only by choice of many Jews, I am not sure. Certainly it happened because many Jews wanted to give up the word of G-d and replace it with foreign worldview and lifestyle, but the same you can say about the other exiles. I think we should take into account the fact that unlike the other opressors, the Greeks didn't have problem with the physical existence of the Jews. They fought the Jewish faith in one G-d, His absolute reign in the world and Divine origin of Torah and the commandments. Their ultimate goal was to destroy the Jewish soul, not the body. Therefore they didn't try to banish Jews from Israel. Nevertheless, their dictate and dominance was hard and cruel and I am not sure if the Jews were able to end it anytime. If only we had such righteous and determited leaders as Maccabees today..
Yes, I guess Rome exile started with the destruction of the Second Temple (or even before that). Obviously, when the Jews were banished from Israel later, the situation became much worse.
Ok, but this it still not a Galut. Actually, thinking about it, there's no foreign in Israel (or at least in the State of Israel) --- we give up on Torah and Eretz Israel by choice (or at least our leaders). Maybe the leadership is Galutic but still there's no Galut here. The fact that we act like it is doesn't make it so.
No, you didn't understand my question, do you believe that Galut Roma started when the Romans took over Israel?
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The leadership is the vassal of US, Europe, "international community", etc. True, the foreign rule is enforced by Jewish hands and in soft form, but it is still foreign rule. Sort of a mild form of judenrat.
Let's continue this discussion tomorrow. It's a bit late in Israel. We gotta wake up for Shacharit in the morning somehow :)
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Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving? Was Stern? I don't think so. Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family. I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers. True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy. Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.
This misses the point. Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael. You think he had an american express on him when he got there? So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there. They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions. Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth? And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes. Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain. But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt? The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt. If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...
I think you are missing my point. It was not Begin's time in the Soviet Labor camp that made him a Zionist or follower of Jabotinsky, he was already a leader of Betar in Poland before he was arrested. His family was a very prominent family in Poland. You are correct that he never chased wealth in Israel, even after his years as Prime Minister he lived very modestly. But he did not get thrown in a Soviet prison for stealing bread to feed himself. He was thrown in prison for being a Zionist and Jewish leader. Look at the American Revolution. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and every signer of the Declaration of Independence were well to do. Look at the hippies and counter culture left wingers of the 1960s. I guarantee you there were no impoverished people among the SDS, Weathermen etc. The Russian Revolution was led by people who were well off. Same with the French Revolution. Al Queada is led by Bin Laden who even in America would be considered quite wealthy and every one of the 19 911 hijackers were fairly well off.
They are your classic revolutionaries, although very evil, who give up their lives in one sense or another to fight the government of their nations.
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Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving? Was Stern? I don't think so. Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family. I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers. True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy. Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.
This misses the point. Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael. You think he had an american express on him when he got there? So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there. They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions. Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth? And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes. Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain. But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt? The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt. If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...
I think you are missing my point. It was not Begin's time in the Soviet Labor camp that made him a Zionist or follower of Jabotinsky, he was already a leader of Betar in Poland before he was arrested. His family was a very prominent family in Poland. You are correct that he never chased wealth in Israel, even after his years as Prime Minister he lived very modestly. But he did not get thrown in a Soviet prison for stealing bread to feed himself. He was thrown in prison for being a Zionist and Jewish leader. Look at the American Revolution. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and every signer of the Declaration of Independence were well to do. Look at the hippies and counter culture left wingers of the 1960s. I guarantee you there were no impoverished people among the SDS, Weathermen etc. The Russian Revolution was led by people who were well off. Same with the French Revolution. Al Queada is led by Bin Laden who even in America would be considered quite wealthy and every one of the 19 911 hijackers were fairly well off.
They are your classic revolutionaries, although very evil, who give up their lives in one sense or another to fight the government of their nations.
Zionist youth movements were popping up all over Europe. There was certainly a need to become educated in zionist literature. I'm not sure I see the need of being wealthy. Why do you consider that was a prerequisite for anyone involved or involved to any high capacity?
And I still don't see how 9/11 was a revolution or could be considered that.
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Spectator can I ask what "Australian" you are talking about and what did he try to do?
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Just because we are not in a full redemption does not mean that galut is in Israel. Israel by definition is NOT galut. One part of redemption is bringing in the exiles to our homeland, physically. That has certainly happened, and there is almost a majority of world Jewry there.
We've just celebrated Hanukah. This holiday teaches us that a situation is possible when the Jewish people resides in Israel and still it is considered galut. galut Yavan = Greece exile. During the Greece exlie, Jews lived in Israel but were dominated by Greek political dictate and their pagan worldview. Present situation in Israel is very similar to those times.
In so-called "galut Yavan" we did not have Jewish political sovereignty. But now we do have Jewish sovereignty in our homeland. That is precisely the difference.
There is certainly more Torah in Israel than anywhere else, and there are more Jews there than ever before in history. To say this is the same thing as the situation 70 years ago and 200-1000 years ago is simply not accurate.
This is certainly true and we must thank G-d for it. Still, it is not the end of the galut (see above).
I didn't say it's a complete redemption, but it indeed does mean that the long period of 'galut' has ended. If you can't see a major fundamental difference between the Jewish reality of the past 60 or so years vs. the 1000 or more years that preceded it, there is something seriously wrong. To call them both "galut" is nonsensical.
We have obligations as a people and as individuals. We cannot make an excuse and say, well we don't have a right to try, or we are exempt from trying regarding x, y, z, because the way I judge things, it's not a full redemption yet. But if you agree that struggling for Jewish sovereignty in Judea and Samaria will bring about further geulah, then there is no sense in saying that we have to limit ourselves in doing so because of the fact that we are not yet in full geulah. That is self-defeating and those premises don't fit together logically.
The only thing that limits us is Halacha. Specifically, we must follow the teachings of the rabbis of our generation (let alone speaking lashon hara about them, as wonga does). This is the only and ultimate limit, it is true for all times, both galut and geulah. All the other options are self-defeating.
So can't you see that it is circular logic and self-defeating to say that the halacha must take a back seat because we are "in galut" or "not complete redemption" or "messiah isn't here yet" ?
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Let's see, was Menachem Begin poor or starving? Was Stern? I don't think so. Eliyahu Hakim, one of the two assassins of Lord Moyne was from a wealthy family. I could not give you an economic status of every member of the Irgun or Lechi but I don't think the fighters were largely down and outers. True they had a disproportionate number of Sephardim in their ranks but Sephardim are not always poor, Hakim was from a family that lived in Egypt and quite wealthy. Bet Tsouri, while not wealthy was certainly well educated.
This misses the point. Begin was in a Soviet concentration/prison camp (poor conditions obviously - not starvation but "near-starvation"... they weren't fattening him up) for years before he came to Eretz Yisrael. You think he had an american express on him when he got there? So too with many who immigrated to the Yishuv and settled there. They were coming on long and trying journeys from foreign countries with little in the way of possessions. Even if they came with relative wealth, were there burgeoning business ventures and a vibrant economy to increase and maintain wealth? And from what I've read about Begin, he and the other cabinet members did not live like kings in fact they lived very modestly because they gave every dime they could give to the revolt purposes. Yes one had to be educated to know about zionist principles, to adopt the spirit of jabotinsky or the labor/socialist strain. But how can this scenario be considered that the wealthiest people did the revolt? The wealthiest Jews (The Jewish Agency) largely stationed in the diaspora, along with their cohorts who followed their demands in Eretz Yisrael (Haganah), were the ones who stifled the resistance and fought with every last breath to prevent a revolt. If the underground had the kind of wealth and resources that the Haganah/Jewish agency had, things would have happened much more quickly and who knows how many Jews could have been saved...
I think you are missing my point. It was not Begin's time in the Soviet Labor camp that made him a Zionist or follower of Jabotinsky, he was already a leader of Betar in Poland before he was arrested. His family was a very prominent family in Poland. You are correct that he never chased wealth in Israel, even after his years as Prime Minister he lived very modestly. But he did not get thrown in a Soviet prison for stealing bread to feed himself. He was thrown in prison for being a Zionist and Jewish leader. Look at the American Revolution. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and every signer of the Declaration of Independence were well to do. Look at the hippies and counter culture left wingers of the 1960s. I guarantee you there were no impoverished people among the SDS, Weathermen etc. The Russian Revolution was led by people who were well off. Same with the French Revolution. Al Queada is led by Bin Laden who even in America would be considered quite wealthy and every one of the 19 911 hijackers were fairly well off.
They are your classic revolutionaries, although very evil, who give up their lives in one sense or another to fight the government of their nations.
Zionist youth movements were popping up all over Europe. There was certainly a need to become educated in zionist literature. I'm not sure I see the need of being wealthy. Why do you consider that was a prerequisite for anyone involved or involved to any high capacity?
And I still don't see how 9/11 was a revolution or could be considered that.
I think we have gotten away from the original point. I just said that you don't need starving masses for a revolution. In fact most revolutions are led by elites. They can be elites of different types not neccessarily economic but poverty is rare among revolutionary leaders. More important is that revoutions usually come from rising expectations that are not met thean from despair or oppression. Starving people are busy looking for food, not taking up arms for a revolution.
Al Queada which pulled off the 911 attacks is a classic revolutionary movement. They are trying to throw off the existing order in their own nations as well as in other nations.
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In so-called "galut Yavan" we did not have Jewish political sovereignty.
If Daniel the Prophet and Rabbi Shimon Ben Lakish mentioned galut Yavan (Greece exile) together with 3 other galuyot, and didn't give it the attribute "so-called", why wouldn't you follow their example?
But now we do have Jewish sovereignty in our homeland.
I don't need to remind you that it is not true sovereignity. Most strategic decisions are made not in the interests of the Jewish people but to please the US and "world opinion". It is rather self-government. It has been so for all 61 years of formal independence, and it will continue while the state is governed according to gentile laws.
I didn't say it's a complete redemption, but it indeed does mean that the long period of 'galut' has ended. If you can't see a major fundamental difference between the Jewish reality of the past 60 or so years vs. the 1000 or more years that preceded it, there is something seriously wrong. To call them both "galut" is nonsensical.
There is a major difference between -1000 and -100 but it is quite reasonable to call them both negative numbers.
As I already said, there is a huge difference but this difference is still insufficient to say that the galut has ended. The reason of your cognitive dissonance is because you stick to the formal translation of the word 'galut' as physical exile but its scope is much broader. Only Jewish sages can give the true definition and time limits of galut.
Rabbi Yaakov ben Asher (Ba'al HaTurim) says in his commentary to Shelah Torah portion that the galut of Rome and the submission to gentiles will end when the Jewish people says "G-d reigned, G-d reigns, G-d will reign forever". Most Jews are still secular, and even those who are religious have many major faults. So the galut is still here.
So can't you see that it is circular logic and self-defeating to say that the halacha must take a back seat because we are "in galut" or "not complete redemption" or "messiah isn't here yet" ?
What exaclty do you mean by "back seat"? The first step to solve the problem is to admit its existence. Even the most Zionist sage Rabbi Kook said that the State of Israel is "the beginning of redemption". Only beginning and by no means completion or "almost completion". Our task is encourage the state to move in the right direction.
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In so-called "galut Yavan" we did not have Jewish political sovereignty.
If Daniel the Prophet and Rabbi Shimon Ben Lakish mentioned galut Yavan (Greece exile) together with 3 other galuyot, and didn't give it the attribute "so-called", why wouldn't you follow their example?
By "so-called" I merely mean 'what you are referring to.' Not implying anything else.
But now we do have Jewish sovereignty in our homeland.
I don't need to remind you that it is not true sovereignity.
False. It IS true sovereignty even if the leaders sometimes don't act like it or sometimes don't have the guts to behave as such. There are certain politicians who would not be held back if they were in office, and they do not hold back with the things they say (Feiglin, Michael Ben-Ari, Eldad).... It is a myth that Israel cannot decide its own fate like any other sovereign nation, and even moreso, like any nuclear power which cannot be told what to do by any other country. It is an all too-convenient myth of the conspiracy theorist variety that Israel cannot make its own decisions. This takes the pressure off the Israeli leaders who make decisions of betrayal, because they wish to shift the blame onto someone else and will not take responsibility for their own actions, this makes it comfortable for Jews who don't like to feel that their own leaders are betraying them, and it makes a religious Jew very confused due to those who use this wacky theory to promote the haredi viewpoint that the redemption process is not really occurring and that what happened 60 years ago has no real significance, as if Jewish national life has not changed at all, a bunch of us merely switched locations at a given time.
Most strategic decisions are made not in the interests of the Jewish people but to please the US and "world opinion".
It is still Jewish sovereignty. The evil kings of the Davidic line were also leaders of a Jewish sovereignty and are not considered "galut administrations." That time period was not galut even when some kings were idol worshippers.
It is rather self-government. It has been so for all 61 years of formal independence,
Self-government, formal independence... .Call it what you want, it's Jewish sovereignty and it cannot be compared with the period of 2000 years before that. They are completely different situations.
I didn't say it's a complete redemption, but it indeed does mean that the long period of 'galut' has ended. If you can't see a major fundamental difference between the Jewish reality of the past 60 or so years vs. the 1000 or more years that preceded it, there is something seriously wrong. To call them both "galut" is nonsensical.
There is a major difference between -1000 and -100 but it is quite reasonable to call them both negative numbers.
But we are not calling things numbers. You are calling the current period Galut, which is a term with a meaning. That does not correspond to the reality of the past 1900 years or so that preceded it which really was termed galut aka EXILE. You cannot possibly tell me that the quality of galut of the past 1900 years was negative but the return to Israel is somehow also negative. It is qualitatively positive. A positive thing. That sets it apart from what galut was. It's not perfect but it is a step in the right direction and qualitatively different from anything in the past 1900 years or so.
As I already said, there is a huge difference but this difference is still insufficient to say that the galut has ended. The reason of your cognitive dissonance is because you stick to the formal translation of the word 'galut' as physical exile but its scope is much broader. Only Jewish sages can give the true definition and time limits of galut.
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What Jewish sage would refer to Jewish sovereignty in the land of Israel with millions of Jews living there, almost a majority if not already a majority of world Jewry, and more Torah being learned there than anywhere else - what Jewish sage calls this galut? And I am not asking about modern day haredi reactionist rebbeim giving their hashkafic views and postulating about how we should "relate" to medinat Israel. Quote me from the Talmud. You cited galut yavan which I already explained was not a sovereign Jewish kingship/statehood. There are parameters to geulah shelema (COMPLETE geula.... Notice that there is a concept of geula and a concept of geula shelema), and if they haven't been met then we aren't there yet. But there is no reason to say that Jews living in Israel right now are living in galut. They are not, and that is nonsensical. Say they are not living in a complete geulah fine, but it makes zero sense to say Jews in Israel live in galut. Absurd. Those of us who have not moved to Israel are languishing in the galut and refuse to let go of the galut even though that burden has been lifted from us quite obviously.
Rabbi Yaakov ben Asher (Ba'al HaTurim) says in his commentary to Shelah Torah portion that the galut of Rome and the submission to gentiles will end when the Jewish people says "G-d reigned, G-d reigns, G-d will reign forever".
Is that not exceedingly vague? You are just using that to interpret any way that you want.
Most Jews are still secular, and even those who are religious have many major faults. So the galut is still here.
Who says that has anything to do with galut? Geula means Jews will have no faults? Where do you get this from? To me this is absurd.
So can't you see that it is circular logic and self-defeating to say that the halacha must take a back seat because we are "in galut" or "not complete redemption" or "messiah isn't here yet" ?
What exaclty do you mean by "back seat"? The first step to solve the problem is to admit its existence. Even the most Zionist sage Rabbi Kook said that the State of Israel is "the beginning of redemption". Only beginning and by no means completion or "almost completion". Our task is encourage the state to move in the right direction.
Now you quote Rav Kook. LOL. Yes, exactly my point. "Beginning of redemption" by definition cannot mean "galut." It's one or the other. Sorry if that bothers you, but it is nonsensical to say otherwise. I took issue with something you said which was basically, we can't do/think x because we don't have messiah yet. This outlook is completely destructive. How does quoting Rav Kook somehow refute what I said? You are merely giving a support to me. But that is besides the point. Whatever you want to call the period we are in today, the halacha cannot take a backseat to that. So you cannot say, we are obligated to build a Temple, but we must ignore that body of halacha because we are not in complete redemption mode yet.
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Now please tell me what Australian you are referring to. And what did this person try to do that you say he shouldn't have? I really have no idea what you refer to. Was this person in the news?
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בס''ד
Nonsense. The Erev Rav are evil traitors, but the conspiracy theories that you and Barry Chamish promote are ridiculous. The Erev Rav would not try to murder HaRav Melamed chas vechalila because to do so is too risky. The vast majority of Israeli Jews would not support the murder of rabbis. And Amona proved that violent confrontations are bad for the Erev Rav because most secular Israelis do not have the stomach for such violence between Jews.
Mitflezet is a troll.
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בס''ד
Nonsense. The Erev Rav are evil traitors, but the conspiracy theories that you and Barry Chamish promote are ridiculous. The Erev Rav would not try to murder HaRav Melamed chas vechalila because to do so is too risky. The vast majority of Israeli Jews would not support the murder of rabbis. And Amona proved that violent confrontations are bad for the Erev Rav because most secular Israelis do not have the stomach for such violence between Jews.
Mitflezet is a troll.
Who's Mitflezet? Dare I ask. :-X
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Now please tell me what Australian you are referring to. And what did this person try to do that you say he shouldn't have? I really have no idea what you refer to. Was this person in the news?
Aussie Denis Michael Rohan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Michael_Rohan
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Wow interesting. What a nut.
Of course, if he had succeeded....
Anyway, what's the big argument about this guy? You mentioned him here once? Big deal.
I do find though that reading that wikipedia page proves something very obvious about the Arabs. They will find ANY excuse to supposedly "justify" their Islamic terrorist murdering of Jews, when really they will commit these barbaric acts regardless of what anyone does. And they will always find something to blame it on. Even something like this that is not even remotely connected to Jews or Israel. Israel probably caught the guy and put out the fire, yet they want to say Israel put him up to it. So why didn't they let it burn down then?
These Arab terrorist nazis are so full of falsehood it would be comical if not so tragic. What makes it tragic is that people believe and lend credibility to their stupidity and baseless nonsense.
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Rabbi Yaakov ben Asher (Ba'al HaTurim) says in his commentary to Shelah Torah portion that the galut of Rome and the submission to gentiles will end when the Jewish people says "G-d reigned, G-d reigns, G-d will reign forever".
Is that not exceedingly vague? You are just using that to interpret any way that you want.
No, it is extremely clear. In Judaism, acceptance of G-d's reign means the obligation to observe His commandments (all of them, not only living in the Land). No other interpretation is possible. On the other hand, I can't see a way how you can push the State of Israel into this commentary, and if not, you contradict Rabbi Yakov ben Asher :)
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Now you quote Rav Kook. LOL. Yes, exactly my point. "Beginning of redemption" by definition cannot mean "galut." It's one or the other. Sorry if that bothers you, but it is nonsensical to say otherwise. I took issue with something you said which was basically, we can't do/think x because we don't have messiah yet. This outlook is completely destructive. How does quoting Rav Kook somehow refute what I said? You are merely giving a support to me. But that is besides the point. Whatever you want to call the period we are in today, the halacha cannot take a backseat to that. So you cannot say, we are obligated to build a Temple, but we must ignore that body of halacha because we are not in complete redemption mode yet.
I quote him because he is the only sage from whom you can somehow get support for your position. The other sages (no less important and respected than Rabbi Kook!) that lived immediately before and in time of creation of the state were critical of his position and they had good reasons for it.
So "beginning of redemption", more accurately, "beginning of the blooming of our redemption" (ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו) is the process of transition from galut to geula. Let us look at some parameters:
1) Physical presence in the Land of Israel. Only 41% of the Jews are here.
2) Level of observance: in Israel 10% of the Jews are haredi, another 10% are national-religious. Another 20-25% are somehow observant. Still, the majority are secular. Outside Israel the situation is even much worse.
So even according to Rabbi Kook, the situation is closer to galut than geula. Also, this process may be reverted back, as we saw in eviction of Jews from Gaza and North Samaria - this and some other crimes were committed by the State of Israel.
And one more thing. Those "reactionist haredi rebbeim" (your words) are the leaders of the observant community with the highest birthrate. You mentioned the fact that most Torah study is now being done in Israel. This too, to a great extent, is their merit. They also sabotaged the effort of the State to purge Judaism out of Jews in the early years of its existence (as Ben Gurion said, "in 20 years the only place one will be able to see a tefillin is museum"). So they are bringing the geula closer both physically and spiritually. They are great Torah sages and Jewish leaders. Therefore, even if disagree with some of their opinions, we must respect these opinions, including those concerned the State of Israel.
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Now you quote Rav Kook. LOL. Yes, exactly my point. "Beginning of redemption" by definition cannot mean "galut." It's one or the other. Sorry if that bothers you, but it is nonsensical to say otherwise. I took issue with something you said which was basically, we can't do/think x because we don't have messiah yet. This outlook is completely destructive. How does quoting Rav Kook somehow refute what I said? You are merely giving a support to me. But that is besides the point. Whatever you want to call the period we are in today, the halacha cannot take a backseat to that. So you cannot say, we are obligated to build a Temple, but we must ignore that body of halacha because we are not in complete redemption mode yet.
I quote him because he is the only sage from whom you can somehow get support for your position.
That's not true.
There were many rabbis who said similar things. And I have heard that a certain currently well-known gadol signed on to a proclamation regarding this issue before he became more haredi-aligned. In any case, there was more than just one rabbi saying that.
So "beginning of redemption", more accurately, "beginning of the blooming of our redemption" (ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו)
Before we even go any further, can we please acknowledge that it is completely nonsensical to say that the "beginning of geula" or "beginning of blooming of geula" etc etc is the same thing as "still galut." ?
I'm sure you engage in sophistry and pilpul after this to somehow bolster your position, but the basics here are that to call the beginning of redemption as the "galut" is nonsensical. That's like calling the 'beginning of black' as "white." Or the "beginning of blooming of white" as "black." Take your pick.
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Let us look at some parameters:
1) Physical presence in the Land of Israel. Only 41% of the Jews are here.
Only?
And you should know that I have seen this report, but there are other statisticians that have the number higher. In either case we are very close to a majority and when it is a certain majority that is a very significant thing indeed. So are 30% and 40% etc also very significant. I believe there are additional halachic nakfa mina's if it reaches a majority though, but I'm not an expert there.
2) Level of observance: in Israel 10% of the Jews are haredi, another 10% are national-religious. Another 20-25% are somehow observant. Still, the majority are secular. Outside Israel the situation is even much worse.
Your point is what exactly? This has nothing to do with whether we are in "galut" or not.
So even according to Rabbi Kook, the situation is closer to galut than geula.
No, you just made that up. You quoted him above, and his words say the opposite of what you just claimed.
Also, this process may be reverted back, as we saw in eviction of Jews from Gaza and North Samaria
So what if it might be reverted back? That doesn't mean it didn't happen in the first place. You are actually acknowledging that something happened by saying there is something to revert. Of course we pray that there is no reversal, but anything can happen if we sin. The Torah says if we sin we are vomited out of the land. The Rambam does not say that in geula no one sins.
- this and some other crimes were committed by the State of Israel.
Irrelevant. Important to know about and be aware of, and to inform one's hashkafa in interacting with the govt of this state... But irrelevant to this particular discussion.
And one more thing. Those "reactionist haredi rebbeim" (your words) are the leaders of the observant community with the highest birthrate.
So? Did I say that they have few kids? No. They have a ton of kids, Baruch Hashem. May God continue to bless them with fruitful offspring.
And yes, their hashkafa is very reactionist.
You mentioned the fact that most Torah study is now being done in Israel. This too, to a great extent, is their merit.
So what? Did I say haredi rebbeim don't deserve credit for Torah study? Chas Veshalom. Of course they deserve credit for their talmud Torah. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It sounds like you think I don't like haredim and you are reacting emotionally to "defend" them against a non-existent attack. Well, that is false. I very much like haredim and appreciate them. (even if I don't agree with every aspect of what they say or do).
So they are bringing the geula closer both physically and spiritually.
Well spiritually yes. But physically you'd have to admit they take a much lesser part in that. But this is neither here nor there. Isn't anyone who does mitzvoth bringing the geula closer?
They are great Torah sages and Jewish leaders.
Did I say they weren't?
Therefore, even if disagree with some of their opinions, we must respect these opinions, including those concerned the State of Israel.
Whom did I disrespect? You perceive my disagreement as disrespect. Hypothetically, if I disagree, that means I do not accept what they say. Not accepting, on whatever grounds, is not disrespecting. It's strange that you seem to acknowledge this with the first half of your statement "even if you disagree" but then when you 'demand respect' I'm not sure what that is based on? All I've done is disagree.
On that note, I differ very strongly in my hashkafa from that of major haredi "gedolim." And not just in regards to the state of Israel. So does my gemara rabbi, and my gemara rabbi is himself haredi.
In any event, this discussion is meaningless. To trifle over what state we are in is useless and pointless. The bottom line is that the Torah demands of us to perform the mitzvoth and nothing is "cancelled" or "off limits" because we are waiting for moshiach. The mitzvah is a chiyuv on the Jewish people, all of us, not on "just the moschiach." No such thing. And that was the bottom line of what I said. So even if you cling to the false and oxymoronic belief for whatever philosophical reason that somehow Jews living in Israel today "live in galut," it should not make a difference halachically speaking.
BTW, if Israel of today is galut even though it was not in the past, why do farmers have to keep Shmita? In that sense, anyone saying it is "galut" is just giving philosophical speculation and even they know that deep down we have our Torah obligations and we have them tied to a certain land, and when we are there we have to do them, no matter how you view the air currents, the mystical forces that are aligning, or how many neighbors around you pay attention to the rabbi or don't follow Torah.
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KWRBT, I agree that there is no point to continue this discussion. Actually, my goal was to present an alternative legitimate Jewish worldview, not to prove that it is better or worse than the other ones. I myself am not a haredi but I know this society well and I have deep respect for them, both the gedolim and regular people.
I am glad that it was a civilized discussion. Unfortunately, not always the discussions on this subject are civilized and respectful. It is very important to respect rabbis, no matter what part of Orthodox Judaism they belong to and how much their hashkafa is different from ours. We seem to manage not to cross any red lines.
And yes, mitzvat yishuv eretz yisrael is actual, no matter we live in galut or geula. haredim acknowlegde this. They live in Yesha; also recently I've been to their agricultural settlement in the south, it was great to see them out of the "ghetto".
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And yes, mitzvat yishuv eretz yisrael is actual, no matter we live in galut or geula. haredim acknowlegde this. They live in Yesha; also recently I've been to their agricultural settlement in the south, it was great to see them out of the "ghetto".
Oh, which place is that, what's it called? I'd like to go there...
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And yes, mitzvat yishuv eretz yisrael is actual, no matter we live in galut or geula. haredim acknowlegde this. They live in Yesha; also recently I've been to their agricultural settlement in the south, it was great to see them out of the "ghetto".
Oh, which place is that, what's it called? I'd like to go there...
It is called Komemiyut, located several miles north of Kiryat Gat.