JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: wonga66 on January 16, 2010, 04:58:45 PM
-
I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.
But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547
(http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4054/trance.jpg)
To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
-
To save a life is correct, whether the nations are watching or not. The issue about a Gentile watching was for the past when nearly all Gentiles were at war with Israel. When there are others who can do the rescue, perhaps it would be better for Jews to stay at home and pray. Perhaps Jewish prayers keeping the Shabbat would more effective than actually going to the area, where there are already a lot of Gentiles helping, but..... remember that most Israelis break Shabbat for much less than a disaster.
-
The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41568000/jpg/_41568530_zakaap416.jpg)
Needlessly to say, this runs totally contrary to the modern egaliatarian humanist mindset, and is considered unacceptable to even many Orthodox, it running against human nature.
But the Torah is not human, and part of the test is that since Matan Torah, there are now two species of human beings on Earth: the Jewish Human and the Gentile Human, and the continued existence of the universe depends on that separateness and distinction being maintained, even if unpleasant.
Once it becomes blurred, there's usually a nasty bodycount on both sides!
Can someone elicit a definitive Kahanist Halachic answer from the (former?) Kahanist Minhag Eretz Yisrael 'posek' R.David Bar Chayim on this subject, as since the kitniyos "scandal", he seems to be moribund.
-
The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.
Needlessly to say, this runs totally contrary to the modern egaliatarian humanist mindset, and is considered unacceptable to even many Orthodox.
Can someone elicit a definitive answer from the (former?) Kahanist Minhag Eretz Yisrael 'posek' R.David Bar Chayim on this subject, as since the kitniyos "scandal", he seems to be moribund.
Can't you ask Chaim this question?
-
In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.
-
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
-
In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.
Sorry, I meant ask our Chaim on Ask JTF.
-
The subject of the Torah's inequal treatment of Jew and Gentile in many areas is so tendentious that I have known some weaker brethern to actually relinquish the religion, and even become venomously anti-Torah.
One fellow I knew was so incensed at the Torah's seeming "injustice" in allowing a Jew to charge a Gentile monetary interest, but not a Jew, made him drop everything and marry out - in some lame neshomos "absolute equality for all" runs that twistedly deep!
-
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
JMO, but I feel we should help everyone, and even our enemies, when it comes to humanitarian crisis.
If I am not mistaken even Israel helped Iran a few years back when there was a bad earthquake there.
-
Wonga, if you were drowning, I'd help you. I hope you would do the same for me, no matter what day of the week it was. If you wouldn't save someone's life just because it's the wrong time of week and because they weren't a part of your own people then something is seriously, seriously wrong with you.
-
I can completely understand why Judaism needs to keep itself distinct and separate from "the world" (a Christian term, but it means the same thing as the Gentile world in Judaism), but the spirit of this thread seems rather argumentative to me.
Then again, most Haitians are not good people.
-
(http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4054/trance.jpg)
To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
man they are greasy!
-
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sosua.html
^The Dominican Republic offered refuge to Jews when no one else would. Haiti is a different political entities, but I believe the people are fairly similar.
I would save a life on shabbat, even if it was someones dog [or to put an animal out of its misery, which is far more unpleasant; a squirl was 1/2 crushed and everyone was swerving out of it's way on the road]. <-If we cannot eat food which has been mistreated, how can we ignore the real suffering of an animal?
Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved. He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem. He has saved many lives on shabbat, or has been busy killing scores of Germans and/or the Arabs. [how can we allow our shabbat to be tainted by suffering which can be alleviated]
"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use. Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.
-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted]. I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".
--
Am I wrong? Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d? Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it... am I wrong to protect what He values?
Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?
-
בס"ד
Without going into the Halachic question, I'd just clear it out that I feel no mercy
for those who don't feel mercy for themeselves like these people.
-
Now that Zaka have put themelves in the world limelight, they are obliged to help out in all circumstances http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/44948/Zaka+Operations+Officer+Flown+Back+from+Haiti.html
It's a shame there are no qualified pro-JTF rabbis on this forum (or indeed anywhere else?!) who can give us answers to Halachic shaalos.
Already there are claims by antisemites that Zaka & the IDF are in Haiti, not to help, but to harvest organs!
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message966951/pg1
In an Amolekite's eyes, Jews can't do anything right. Hitler would still send a Jewish doctor who might have saved his life after the Bomb Plot to the gas chamber!
-
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
-
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.
Hebrew Zaka website:
http://www.zaka.org.il/index_h.php
English site:
http://www.zaka.us/index.asp
Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA
-
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.
Hebrew Zaka website:
http://www.zaka.org.il/index_h.php
English site:
http://www.zaka.us/index.asp
Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA
"Those who sleep with the dead" - HEROES!!
I was reading about these guys last week. I got some pictures of them I need to post. Even when dealing with suicide bomb Amelek Muslim Scumbag Nazis Koranimals... to show kindness to the dead is, perhaps, the greatest charity, for there is no chance at all of ever being repaid. - Not only do these guys do jobs most are incapable of doing, or imagining, but they also travel around to cheer up the troops [that may cheer them up in turn]. I want to be a EMT, but I don't know if I have the chutzpah to be Zaka.
-
Hamites are North African.
And they are not "greasy," Haiti happens to be a tropical island aka humid.
-
The Negroidals, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all descendants of Ham.
There is a tradition that most Hamites will perish before the Messianic Era:
"In the whole world, declares the L-rd, two-thirds will be struck down and perish, and one-third will be left alive" (Zecharya 13:8 ) .
-
The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.
Practically our whole religion is derabanan. So classfiying something as derabanan accomplishes zilch, it's 100% binding halacha. But I'm not sure that this is derabanan! Halacha lamaaseh ? Maybe, maybe not - depends on who you ask, I'm sure. But I'm not at all convinced that it can be called "derabanan" although I could be wrong, let me ask around.
-
In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.
You are speaking pure sheker. There is nowhere on his site to even ask questions. The only way to ask him questions is to send the question to his email address, which is directly to him. I have sent him halachic shailot and he has responded to me. There are many people contacting him from all over the world from what I understand as well. And I can assure you that I have learned by this great chacham and however old he may be, his mind is as sharp as ever (50 is not even old!). That you would question that from a place of complete ignorance and pointless speculation is offensive.
-
Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved. He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem.
He may be a tremendous tzadik (righteous person) and heroic Jew, but none of this has anything to do with what the Jewish religion says about this issue. And as much as you or I may like and respect Lt. Col Opus, he cannot personally decide the laws of Judaism. So unless he is quoting what his rav explained and taught to him, he is clearly not qualified to decide the matter considering he's not religious and likely has not studied it in depth. If I'm wrong and he's a talmud scholar, fine, but that does not seem to be the case based on what you are saying, and if he is not, there is no business in quoting his opinion.
"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use. Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.
-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted]. I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".
--
Am I wrong? Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d? Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it... am I wrong to protect what He values?
Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?
These are all interesting points, but this is not how a halachic discussion is conducted, and this is not how halacha (Jewish law) is arrived at. The same Talmud that you cite contains the record of all halachic discussions (along with subsequent authorities and commentary on Talmud) as a continuation of the centralized authority of the Great Sanhedrin that came before it. The Talmud was sealed in order to unify the halacha, and it is within this vast text that we find the methodology to arriving at the halacha, and we find the codified halacha.
-
The Negroidals, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all descendants of Ham.
There is a tradition that most Hamites will perish before the Messianic Era:
"In the whole world, declares the L-rd, two-thirds will be struck down and perish, and one-third will be left alive" (Zecharya 13:8 ) .
I don't know where you get this from, both the quote or the explanation that you seem to invent, but even if it was true, so what if there is such a tradition? That's irrelevant to any of this discussion. The only question is what does the halacha say.
I will ask my rabbi in shiur tomorrow about this bli neder - since I am far from expert on this issue although it did come up recently coincidentally - and I will also perhaps pose the question to Rabbi Bar Hayim if you would prefer not doing so yourself.
I imagine that Zaka of course has its own explanation! Have we bothered to consult that as at least a starting point? I wish I had more time today to get into this discussion/research more.
-
(http://l.yimg.com/a/i/ww/news/2010/01/17/wy.jpg)
-
If the Israeli teams were clever, they'd hop it out of Haiti before they literally get sliced and diced....and eaten alive!
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/17/prepared-for-landing-in-port-au-prince/
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/011710_devistationhaiti_20100117_163753.jpg)
Certain of the Black race can only be helped up by Whites to a point. Once that point has been reached you're on a losing wicket and they have to be left to their own devices & let "natural selection" takeoever, otherwise they will drag you down to death with them.
-
If the Israeli teams were clever, they'd hop it out of Haiti before they literally get sliced and diced....and eaten alive!
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/17/prepared-for-landing-in-port-au-prince/
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/011710_devistationhaiti_20100117_163753.jpg)
Certain of the Black race can only be helped up by Whites to a point. Once that point has been reached you're on a losing wicket and they have to be left to their own devices & let "natural selection" takeoever, otherwise they will drag you down to death with them.
Haitians are not that far removed from their "brothers" in Africa.
Just go to South Florida and see.
-
I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.
But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547
(http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4054/trance.jpg)
To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
Interesting. Haven't thought of this. The ones who went aren't frum, I imagine.
-
Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved. He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem.
He may be a tremendous tzadik (righteous person) and heroic Jew, but none of this has anything to do with what the Jewish religion says about this issue. And as much as you or I may like and respect Lt. Col Opus, he cannot personally decide the laws of Judaism. So unless he is quoting what his rav explained and taught to him, he is clearly not qualified to decide the matter considering he's not religious and likely has not studied it in depth. If I'm wrong and he's a talmud scholar, fine, but that does not seem to be the case based on what you are saying, and if he is not, there is no business in quoting his opinion.
"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use. Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.
-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted]. I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".
--
Am I wrong? Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d? Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it... am I wrong to protect what He values?
Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?
These are all interesting points, but this is not how a halachic discussion is conducted, and this is not how halacha (Jewish law) is arrived at. The same Talmud that you cite contains the record of all halachic discussions (along with subsequent authorities and commentary on Talmud) as a continuation of the centralized authority of the Great Sanhedrin that came before it. The Talmud was sealed in order to unify the halacha, and it is within this vast text that we find the methodology to arriving at the halacha, and we find the codified halacha.
I guess I simply do not know "it all". ;)
I do my best to attend a 3-hr weekly Torah study, but I know so little about Talmud, other than somewhat well known quotes [like above].
Seems like it would be easier to start reading a set of Encyclopedias than to START being a Talmud scholar. Even Einstein didn't have it figured out [he said he wish he studied more Talmud in his later days]!
-Can you endorse a reputable place online a guy who has the desire to learn more Talmud can go [what is the real starting point, books like "Talmud for Dummies" have not helped me]? I do my best to process a daily list of things from Chabad, but no real Talmud study, unless the books I study are actually part of the Talmud [that would sort of be a nice surprise]. My view just does not seem wide enough to "get it" with Talmud. I, ashamedly, had NO interest in my own religiosity, heritage, or community until about two years ago.
-
I placed as detailed a question that gentiles and some Jews on this forum can understand in a non-Talmudic language for Chaim for next week about this subject. Feel free to critique it and I'll adjust it.
-
I placed as detailed a question that gentiles and some Jews on this forum can understand in a non-Talmudic language for Chaim for next week about this subject. Feel free to critique it and I'll adjust it.
shkoyach, achi.
-
I have also heard the opinion that a Jew should not save a Gentile on a Shabbat. I don't know whether there is a consensus on this point, but I know that this rabbinical opinion does exist. The explanation is the following: if you save a Jew, he would be able to celebrate many more Shabbats.
My take on it is this. The Judaic worldview is based on totally different axioms than our modern secular view. Our modern western perspective is people-centric. Human life is of the paramount significance. It follows from atheist premises that this physical existence is all there is; therefore physical survival is the supreme value - it trumps everything in importance. Judaism takes a more spiritual view. Human life is also very important, but it is not a value in itself: it is important "for the sake of" something else. What this something else is, I am not qualified to answer. Probably the fulfillment of G-d's laws and commandments. When the Sabbath is observed, something of tremendous importance takes place in Heaven and on Earth. The observance of the Sabbath performs the function of the proverbial Atlas who shoulders both the earth and the sky and keeps the world from being destroyed. So it's not that the life of a Gentile is less important than that of a Jew. It is just a commanment-centered view rather than a life-as-a-value-in-itself-centered view. It's not like we can live forever, anyway (in this world).
-
Now that Zaka have put themelves in the world limelight, they are obliged to help out in all circumstances http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/44948/Zaka+Operations+Officer+Flown+Back+from+Haiti.html
Zaka director Yehuda Meshi-Zahav confirms Weingarten began complaining of excruciating pain about 2 hours following their arrival and doctors made the decision to fly him back home. He added that he was anesthetized by doctors in Shaare Zedek due to the significant pain he was feeling.
Do you think he might be being punished by haShem for breaking the Shabbat?
-
I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.
But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547
(http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/uploads/4054/trance.jpg)
To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
Interesting. Haven't thought of this. The ones who went aren't frum, I imagine.
No, ZAKA is an orthodox rescue group from what I understand.
-
Let me make a very important point here. I think that it's nice and fuzzy and all that this orthodox Jewish group goes out there to help the victims of this earthquake..whether sanctioned by Torah or not on Shabbat...I mean the experience they are getting from these rescue operations can also be for, hopefully we never know it nor experience it, if it happens close to home.
-
cough* kill the arabs* cough
-
I do my best to attend a 3-hr weekly Torah study,
That is very praiseworthy, may you go from strength to strength and stick with this very monumental activity.
but I know so little about Talmud, other than somewhat well known quotes [like above].
No problem there; no one can be blamed for not knowing yet, and it is a very good quality to be humble and acknowledge that. The key point is to try to learn which you are doing. So I commend you.
Seems like it would be easier to start reading a set of Encyclopedias than to START being a Talmud scholar. Even Einstein didn't have it figured out [he said he wish he studied more Talmud in his later days]!
The study of Talmud is indeed a unique activity with its own methodology (dialectics arguments, deriving halachot etc), nuances, language, and technical terms which can be quite foreign to the untrained novice. To learn the particular methods required to even understand Talmud and its unique learning-style can require a formal training. And once a person obtains such training, it is no simple matter to then become expert in the various discussions and to coherently arrive at halacha (Jewish law) from within the texts on complicated matters. Indeed a true expert in Talmud is a very rare and precious contributor within the Jewish world.
-Can you endorse a reputable place online a guy who has the desire to learn more Talmud can go [what is the real starting point, books like "Talmud for Dummies" have not helped me]? I do my best to process a daily list of things from Chabad, but no real Talmud study, unless the books I study are actually part of the Talmud [that would sort of be a nice surprise]. My view just does not seem wide enough to "get it" with Talmud. I, ashamedly, had NO interest in my own religiosity, heritage, or community until about two years ago.
It's really great that you are interested. I myself was also raised ignorant and with an imitation/phony so-called 'reform Judaism' which I realized later in life was clearly unsuitable and inauthentic. My best recommendation would be to find a rabbi at the local yeshiva or orthodox synagogue nearby (if there is one near you) and speak to him about your situation that you are a novice and you would love to learn Talmud (and to learn how to learn Talmud), and if he will help you or if there is anyone available who is looking to tutor or teach a Jew who is less learned/experienced. Often there will be someone who is looking to teach people or at least looking to do some outreach.
Other than that it may be that learning in a 'baal teshuvah' yeshiva for a few months or a year if possible would be the best way to catch on to Torah-learning quickly, since there they focus on teaching people who did not grow up with it. There are also some very good shorter-term programs for beginners (not actual yeshiva, but gives you a taste of yeshiva, the learning there and the schedule, etc, especially Talmud learning) that I would HIGHLY recommend if you have time to take off from work/school temporarily to devote to Torah study.
Here are some links:
http://www.machonshlomosummer.com/index.asp
STEP program which runs about 3-4 weeks, in Yerushalayim.
http://www.yeshivalite.com/
Also about 3-4 weeks also in Yerushalayim ir hakodesh.
I know there are more programs out there as well for instance or sameach in monsey, or sameach in Yerushalayim, Aish Ha Torah in yerushalayim, etc.
It depends where you live, what your situation is. Are you currently a student? College? Working?
And I would recommend "Daf Yomi" but that may be tough if you have never learned Talmud before. On the other hand it is in English and explained so it might help you become accustomed to the style of the Talmud if you learn that with the text in front of you. There are websites that provide this material, both audio files and the text for that day.
Hope this helps.
-
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim. Only if I knew for certain that the specific person drowning is so evil he deserves to die, would I not rescue him.
-
בס"ד
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
Are you totally nuts
-
בס"ד
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?
-
בס"ד
בס"ד
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?
Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?
-
I asked my rabbi about this issue in shiur today, and he said the ZAKA group definitely is justified to go over there and save people by breaking Shabbat for several reasons. (I told him ZAKA is an orthodox rescue unit). On the one hand, he said that the major acharonim pasken that nowadays Jews can break Shabbat to save a gentile's life because of a factor of "fear" which overrides the otherwise prohibition to break Shabbat. The fear is that not doing so could make gentiles angry with us, which we don't want gentiles to hate us obviously, and therefore they may take revenge by refusing to treat Jews. So in effect you are getting Jews killed by refraining to help gentiles, even though the sanctity of Shabbat is paramount and almost unnegotiable. That would give you a permission to break Shabbat.
There is also plenty of room for logical deductions such as the fact that since every nation or at least many nations are sending delegations over there to help, if Israel is the only one who does not, it can cause the civilized nations of the world to put pressure on us or help our enemies the Arabs, or it could motivate the Arabs to hate us more and spread their Jew-hating propaganda to kill us. So this also can be used reasonably in this case in his opinion, in addition to the fact that later authorities rule it's permissible anyway.
[Also, there is a shita (opinion), and which rishon it was now escapes me so I don't want to say who until I get the name straight, but there is an opinion that exists that all of those gemaras are speaking about *actual idol worshippers, not just all non-Jews. That to break Shabbat to save a life of a non-Jew would be permitted if the non-Jew is not an idol worshipper. The difficulty in applying that here is that it seems Haitians are into voodoo and other strange things. So that may not be applicable.]
But aside from all of this there is one basic fact that makes this very clear that ZAKA is justified in what they are doing even from the earliest authorities. The gemara paskens according to Shmuel, that even in a case where the city is a majority of gentiles, even if there is a single Jew that lives there, you have to break Shabbat to save the guy (whose identity you don't know). Since there were a handful of Israelis (Jews) in Haiti at the time (even one suffices), then they are permitted to break Shabbat there and save people.
I'm not sure if all the Israelis who were there have been accounted for yet, but even regardless of this, just the fact that there was a single Jew in that place allows you to break Shabbat to save the people (all of them) from dying.
-
I request that this thread be moved to the Judaism section. I would like to explain my Talmud rabbi's answer in depth, although I'm less comfortable doing so in the main forum since it's a detailed discussion of the Oral law, and I feel this is more appropriate in the Judaism section. It may be that there is no problem anyway, but since I am not expert about what I can or can't explain in a public forum, I'd rather be more cautious and at least have this in the Judaism section.
Thank you for moving. I have posted a summary of my rabbi's response above.
-
בס"ד
בס"ד
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims
I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.
Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?
Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?
No.
-
bli neder, I will also pose the question to Rabbi David Bar Hayim, since that was requested.
-
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.
Well, Spectator, perhaps you should go and listen to Chaim's commentary on Haiti earthquake and the stupid Jewish organizations who rushed to help there before you insult wonga66.
-
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.
Well, Spectator, perhaps you should go and listen to Chaim's commentary on Haiti earthquake and the stupid Jewish organizations who rushed to help there before you insult wonga66.
If you are talking about overall Jewish/Israeli help to Haiti, I agree with you. Moreover, as an Israeli I question disproportionately great help of Israel to the Haiti residents and, even more, the exaggerated importance Israeli leftist media give to this earthquake and our participation in the issue. I guess it is nothing more than self-hating desire to find favor with the gentiles.
However, this thread is not about the mainstream but the specific rescue team, Zaka. We must take into account two facts:
1) These guys are often the first ones who arrive to the place of catastrophe (mainly terrorist acts in Israel). Some of them are paramedics who save lives, some collect corpses (or body parts), take proper care of them, and prepare to bury them according to Halacha. This alone gives Zaka much respect.
2) They are Orthodox Jews who perfectly know what must and must not be done in such extreme conditions according to Halacha. They are consulted by important rabbis.
8 Israelis were missing after the earthquake. Also, there were reports about missing diaspora Jews. So Zaka operatives went there to search and help them. Now if they were only helping Jews and ignoring Gentiles, this would certainly arouse hatred and animosity towards Jews. And even the Halachic opinion you mentioned in your recent post that states we are not obliged to save gentile's life, agrees that we must do it if there is a suspicion of animosity in case of refusal. Let alone the fact that there is another Sage who says that we only must not save life of a true idolator (Haiti-style stupid superstitions are not true idolatry), and in case of a regular gentile - we are obliged to save his life. All this gives Zaka more than enough reasons to work in Haiti. I also guess they have other reasons I am not aware of.
-----------------------------------------
Now about wonga. My problem with him is not because I disagree with what he says. The real problem is the fact that he constantly presents his own claims as Halacha (religious law) and Hashkafa (religious worldview). And he does that either
- to encourage antisemitic stereotypes by claiming or implying that Judaism views gentiles as worthless filth whose lives aren't worth a penny (which is simply not true - there is big difference between G-d's commandment to live separately and care for fellow Jews first and foremost and what wonga says).
- to defame certain rabbi (for example rabbi Melamed) or an organization (for example Zaka), or a community (for example Haredim), in short - create division and tension among the Orthodox Jews, to sharpen and exaggerate differences between them.
Both these things harm Jewish people immensely.
I hope this clarifies.
-
As long as there is even one single Jew not accounted for, they are obligated to save every possible person from within the rubble and even break Shabbat to do so. Once missing Jews are all accounted for, then that becomes a different issue. My gemara rabbi sides with Rav Moshe Feinstein and other acharonim who rules that we do break Shabbat to save the non-Jew nowadays. There is room to disagree since that is a modern innovative psak, and Rav Bar Hayim disagrees with that psak. He holds that if there are only gentiles then it is good to go and help them but we cannot break Shabbat to do so. So on Shabbat they would have to help in ways that do not involve desecrating the Shabbat or otherwise sit out for a while.
-
As long as there is even one single Jew not accounted for, they are obligated to save every possible person from within the rubble and even break Shabbat to do so. Once missing Jews are all accounted for, then that becomes a different issue. My gemara rabbi sides with Rav Moshe Feinstein and other acharonim who rules that we do break Shabbat to save the non-Jew nowadays. There is room to disagree since that is a modern innovative psak, and Rav Bar Hayim disagrees with that psak. He holds that if there are only gentiles then it is good to go and help them but we cannot break Shabbat to do so. So on Shabbat they would have to help in ways that do not involve desecrating the Shabbat or otherwise sit out for a while.
Thank you for summing this up.
-
How could we ever be sure a victim was not a member of the "Lost Ten Tribes"! :)
-
According to the Talmud, the 10 Lost Tribes long ago lost their status of "Yisroel", and have the Halachic status of goyim gamurim!
www.britam.org
They will return in the End of Days and will require full geirus.
-
According to the Talmud, the 10 Lost Tribes long ago lost their status of "Yisroel", and have the Halachic status of goyim gamurim!
www.britam.org
They will return in the End of Days and will require full geirus.
Thanks for a nice link. I really enjoy studying about the Lost Tribes. Enjoying the link already! :)