JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on February 08, 2010, 09:02:45 AM
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בס''ד
This lady has real class! Not only does Irina create a new video devoted to the Israeli Air Force, she also dedicates the video to 30 active JTFers, whom she refers to as "great members".
Among the people that Irina dedicates the video to are 4International and Moshe who have been harshly criticizing her.
Irina also writes on her zootube account: "Let's make JTF a mass movement".
By the way, I always post Irina's videos on the Hebrew forum and all of our Israeli members love them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1ULRWWqpjs
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I like the music she chose for the video a lot.
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Irina also writes on her zootube account: "Let's make JTF a mass movement".
Brother Chaim I can see you really love Ira a lot, but for G-d's sake, in all honesty how is she going to make "JTF into a mass movement" by posting a sarcastic parody video with intimate details of your personal life followed by a video of the Gay Village People? Do you seriously think people who are unfamiliar with JTF and Chaim Ben Pesach will take JTF seriously when they see videos like that?
And why is she copying me now by posting a video dedicated to the IAF when I already did this a year ago and Czarbomba re-uplaoded it a couple of day ago already?
I know the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but this just shows she's not very original or creative at all.
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She makes me feel good, I feel in the depths of despair lately.
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And another thing brother Chaim, if she is dedicating the video to me by copying my work, why on earth am I only 15th on her list?
Isn't that a bit of an insult instead of a compliment? :nono:
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She makes me feel good, I feel in the depths of despair lately.
I would advice herbal tea and footbaths.
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The video obviously didn't take too long to make.
It's strange that someone that doesn't join JTF spends so much time making video's about us.
What is her obsession with JTF?
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The video obviously didn't take too long to make.
It's strange that someone that doesn't join JTF spends so much time making video's about us.
What is her obsession with JTF?
No offense brother Chaim, like I said before I can see you really love Ira a lot, but honestly both Moshe and I think Ira's slightly nuts: one of the main reasons being her being friendly with traitor mental patient Steven Weigang.
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And another thing brother Chaim, if she is dedicating the video to me by copying my work, why on earth am I only 15th on her list?
Isn't that a bit of an insult instead of a compliment? :nono:
Not that I'm defending or attacking anyone but I don't think that list was in any particular order.
But I have to agree, she did copy Joshua's work and made it as her own. The very least that she could say is, the original video was made by 4International.
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The video obviously didn't take too long to make.
It's strange that someone that doesn't join JTF spends so much time making video's about us.
What is her obsession with JTF?
No offense brother Chaim, like I said before I can see you really love Ira a lot, but honestly both Moshe and I think Ira's slightly nuts: one of the main reasons being her being friendly with traitor mental patient Steven Weigang.
She's not a member of JTF so it's possible she thinks that pig Wiegang is still a supporter of JTF.
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The video obviously didn't take too long to make.
It's strange that someone that doesn't join JTF spends so much time making video's about us.
What is her obsession with JTF?
No offense brother Chaim, like I said before I can see you really love Ira a lot, but honestly both Moshe and I think Ira's slightly nuts: one of the main reasons being her being friendly with traitor mental patient Steven Weigang.
She's not a member of JTF so it's possible she thinks that pig Wiegang is still a supporter of JTF.
Bryan,
it logically follows that since Ira has dedicated the video to 30 active JTF'ers who she referred to as "great members" then logically she has been observing the forum quite regularly - as she obviously finds JTF so fascinating - so the inescapable conclusion is that she would have to be aware that Steven Weigang said publicly on Zootube that "Chaim is a pedophile piece of sh*t" and "LOL Baruch HaShem Chaim is banned from Israel" .
If she idolizes Chaim and JTF so much it stands to reason that she would be aware of Steven Weigang's treachery against Chaim and JTF and cease and desist from being friendly with him.
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i agree with chaim. You ot need t lighten up. if it starts becoming malicious then so be it, we should boycott her. but these videos are another means of publicity.
As the saying goes, even bad publicity is good publicity...And i dont think this is that bad..
As chaim says, the fact that she is doing satire on this forum and mildly poking non malicous fun at us shows we have people that respect us.
Until it gets malicous and nasty, i think we should show good sense of humour.
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I made the list ;D
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That turd Piggang says in his own video that god loves him.
What an imbecile.
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I was amused by some of her videos by I think Chaim said it right that it is a legitimate satire over a public and political organization and there is no need to take offense from it.
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wow, I finally made a list, thankyou Ira.
:-*
I've had a very rough few weeks.
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And another thing brother Chaim, if she is dedicating the video to me by copying my work, why on earth am I only 15th on her list?
Isn't that a bit of an insult instead of a compliment? :nono:
I am with Joshua, his name should have been FIRST on the list! God Bless you Joshua, don't waste your precious time and energy on Ira! That would mean you CARE and you shouldn't!
((((((((((((((Joshua)))))))))))))))
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And why is she copying me now by posting a video dedicated to the IAF when I already did this a year ago and Czarbomba re-uplaoded it a couple of day ago already?
I know the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but this just shows she's not very original or creative at all.
4International - We are one team and we have one dream, that is liberating the entire holy land from muslim nazis!
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Chaim, I agree with you about Irina. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves at the end of the day. Without humor, life ceases to exist.
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And another thing brother Chaim, if she is dedicating the video to me by copying my work, why on earth am I only 15th on her list?
Isn't that a bit of an insult instead of a compliment? :nono:
I am with Joshua, his name should have been FIRST on the list! G-d Bless you Joshua, don't waste your precious time and energy on Ira! That would mean you CARE and you shouldn't!
((((((((((((((Joshua)))))))))))))))
Good on you arksis! I heard a lot about you from Joshua/4International. You're really a true friend of Joshua just like me. At least Joshua will now know who his real friends are on this forum.
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And why is she copying me now by posting a video dedicated to the IAF when I already did this a year ago and Czarbomba re-uplaoded it a couple of day ago already?
I know the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" but this just shows she's not very original or creative at all.
4International - We are one team and we have one dream, that is liberating the entire holy land from muslim nazis!
Only problem is ira is not a real friend and is not on our team. She just insulted Joshua and denigrated his masterpieces on her channel. What a disgrace.
First she steals 4Int's great work and then doesn't even give him credit. Then she insults his work. What a phony.
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Laughter does good, like medicine.
~Proverbs~
Chaim, I agree with you about Irina. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves at the end of the day. Without humor, life ceases to exist.
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Laughter does good, like medicine.
~Proverbs~
Chaim, I agree with you about Irina. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves at the end of the day. Without humor, life ceases to exist.
yes I agree with you Hanna & Dr.Brennan fan that laughter is good medicine & very healthy to have sense of humour. But ira just insulted my best friend 4Int. & denigrated his work after stealing it without giving him credit.
that is not very funny or a good medicine to swallow.
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בס''ד
Czarbomba, on your zootube account, here is what you write about JTF members:
"I am sick of seeing you braindead morons fawn over ira's boring, cheap, repetitive, stupid, childish videos with shi--y picture quality and terrible sound just cause your leader likes her so much. Her videos aren't even funny or creative they're just pathetic, boring, lame, repetitive crap. She has zero talent and her videos are a sick joke compared to 4International's masterpieces which are like mini movies."
So all JTFers who happen to disagree with you are "braindead morons". And the incredible hatred that you express toward Irina and her videos is so ugly and vicious.
But that's just the beginning. You then write:
"...you clowns fawn over her as if she was supermodel Bar Rafaeli! LOL. She's probably some 300 kilogram 60 year old woman! LMFAO."
So JTFers are also "clowns".
You then call one of our Israeli members who is active on our Hebrew forum a "faggot idiot" and a "jealous faggot loser" who has a "stupid braindead retarded mouth" just because he likes Irina's videos. You tell him to "shove it up his faggot a--".
Then you and 4International ask: What will outsiders who know nothing about JTF think if they see Irina's videos?
In response, I ask you: What will outsiders who don't know JTF think when they see you calling us "braindead morons", "clowns", "faggots", "losers" and "idiots"?
Then you go on Irina's zootube channel to attack her personally, and when she responds mildly, you claim that she is the one attacking 4International's videos!
You have also publicly attacked me, saying that I should hang my head in shame.
I'll let our members decide for themselves who should be hanging their head in shame.
And yes, I do believe that Irina's videos are funny and pleasant, and I don't mind at all if she pokes fun at me. I look forward to her videos.
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בס''ד
Czarbomba, on your zootube account, here is what you write about JTF members:
"I am sick of seeing you braindead morons fawn over ira's boring, cheap, repetitive, stupid, childish videos with shi--y picture quality and terrible sound just cause your leader likes her so much. Her videos aren't even funny or creative they're just pathetic, boring, lame, repetitive crap. She has zero talent and her videos are a sick joke compared to 4International's masterpieces which are like mini movies."
So all JTFers who happen to disagree with you are "braindead morons". And the incredible hatred that you express toward Irina and her videos is so ugly and vicious.
But that's just the beginning. You then write:
"...you clowns fawn over her as if she was supermodel Bar Rafaeli! LOL. She's probably some 300 kilogram 60 year old woman! LMFAO."
So JTFers are also "clowns".
You then call one of our Israeli members who is active on our Hebrew forum a "faggot idiot" and a "jealous faggot loser" who has a "stupid braindead retarded mouth" just because he likes Irina's videos. You tell him to "shove it up his faggot a--".
Then you and 4International ask: What will outsiders who know nothing about JTF think if they see Irina's videos?
In response, I ask you: What will outsiders who don't know JTF think when they see you calling us "braindead morons", "clowns", "faggots", "losers" and "idiots"?
Then you go on Irina's zootube channel to attack her personally, and when she responds mildly, you claim that she is the one attacking 4International's videos!
You have also publicly attacked me, saying that I should hang my head in shame.
I'll let our members decide for themselves who should be hanging their head in shame.
And yes, I do believe that Irina's videos are funny and pleasant, and I don't mind at all if she pokes fun at me. I look forward to her videos.
yes I did write all of that Chaim. I make no apologies for it because ira is an ENEMY of JTF period! i know her much better than most because I am Russian & have seen what she has been doing making friends with neo-nazis & muslim jihadist scum on youtube like for the last 2 years! so thats okay with you? dont you realise that they subscribe to her channel? so thats okay with you? don't you realise that several of ira's videos are popular with neo-nazi & muslim jihadist scum on youtube who flag JTF videos & get JTF accounts suspended? did you know that several of Joshua's accounts on youtube were taken down by ira's neo-nazi & jihadist muslim scum FRIENDS on youtube? so thats okay with you?
don't you realise she is a friend of faggot steven weigang who betrayed you and everything your movement stand for? faggot weigang called you a "pedophile" & "a piece of sh*t" on youtube! so you think that's okay for ira to be friends with scum like that?? what about the fact that she STOLE Joshua's video & passed it off as her own without giving credit? so thats okay with you? And what about Jewish hero Joshua? how come I hardly ever see you supporting him? how come you dont ever comment on his threads here? why dont you praise this Jewish hero who has done so much for the JTF movement & instead always sticky ira's videos, praise & promote them but never sticky, praise or promote Jewish hero Joshua?
I actually wrote;
"She's (ira) said she's not even pro-JTF, she ridicules and makes fun of your leader, is not a member of JTF, isn't Jewish, isn't pro-Israel, neo-nazis & muslim jihadist scum favourite her videos & subscribe to her channel & if that's not shameful & bad enough she is also a friend of that faggot steven weigang who betrayed Chaim & everything JTF stands for & yet you clowns fawn over her as if she was supermodel Bar Rafaeli! LOL.She's probably some 300 kilogram 60 year old woman! LMFAO.
"Your leader Chaim Ben Pesach who as much as I respect, honour, admire & support both him & his JTF organisation & its goals, seriously ought to hang his head in shame for constantly promoting her cheap trash while failing to praise & promote 4International's far superior & far more vitally important work, especially on topics like Jasenovac & so many other subjects 4Int has covered over the last 14 months."
that is why I said "hang your head in shame" specifically and only because of this! if this offends you Chaim then I am sorry but thats the way I feel about this; if you want to ban me because of this then feel free to do so BUT I AM ONLY TRYING TO WAKE YOU UP OUT OF YOUR SLUMBER & MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IRA IS YOUR ENEMY & ALWAYS HAS BEEN!!!!!!!! PLEASE DONT BE FOOLED BY HER! SHE IS A FRAUD & A PHONY like weigang! you have admitted you have made mistakes in the past promoting ppl like weigang & several others who were recently banned so I hope you dont repeat this same mistake again!
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The only thing I'll add to this thread for now is I appreciate the efforts of everyone who is trying to enhance JTF. Sometimes we will disagree on some topics. Yet, what stands out is how many enemies we have. That's why its imperative we can agree to disagree at times as in the case in this thread. But still work towards the overall goal of helping save the United States, Israel, and Western Civilization.
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Czarbomba, even if you were right, you shouldn't so fervently attack everyone who you don't agree with. Chaim is an experienced leader, I am sure he knows what he does, try to calm down and understand his position. If you don't agree, try to prove your point in a civilized debate.
The slogan "who is not with us is against us" is not always correct.
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Please don't ban Czarbomba. Joshua has a way of making us VERY proud of our support for JTF and he is just defending his righteous friend. Chaim deserves an apology, as do the others he has slammed with his hurtful words though. I beg of you all to please give him a chance and show some compassion for someone so emotional over this. Typed words are misinterpreted very differently from "spoken" words and it's easy to get upset over that. Please let's ALL come together and support each other no matter what. We are all in agreement of our goals, so please let's stay the course. :fist: :fist:
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Chaim, I agree with you about Irina. We need to be able to laugh at ourselves at the end of the day. Without humor, life ceases to exist.
I agree. Were not ill humored liberals.
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And another thing brother Chaim, if she is dedicating the video to me by copying my work, why on earth am I only 15th on her list?
Isn't that a bit of an insult instead of a compliment? :nono:
Let's not be jealous here. She likes Dr. Brennan Fan so much she lists him twice :). Seriously if we honestly believe that the fate of Israel, the Jewish People and the future of western civilization are in our hands then shouldn't we put this pettiness aside?
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Hey, I got a shoutout! :)
I value what Irina has to say... if everyone parroted exactly what one person says... we'd all be automatons.
If 4international's vids was "borrowed w/o permission"... well, that's a bit odd, and I see that frustrating to 4international; bad vibe? - I am a big fan of "rip off graphics", from my DJ/rave flyer days, which is why I ganked the old Iranian red cross lion and turned it into a pro-Israel one... but I like people to know that... I love frustrating PROUD Iranian Muslims who recognize it... Much like Alexander conquered the Persians, I seek Israel to be the new Alexander... I wouldn't complain if Netanyahu cut of Ahmadinablowjob's nose and ears... traditional Persian tactic applied to a Persian... Alexander! One reason I write under the name, "Alexander Maccabee".
And by "a bit odd", I mean twisted and perverse... no curious feelings about it.
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That video reminds me that the IAF only has 9 airbases, of which most of the front-line fighters are concentrated in four of them, are all vulnerable to a preemptive missile and suicide aircraft strike from Syria, Egypt, Iran, Jordan and even Hamas and Hizbollah.
If the runways/command & control are damaged, the jets can't take off = end of Israel.
Israel should invest NOW in 10 vertical take-off aircraft as a deterrent, stashed away in some hidden Negev wadis and some Golan and Galilee ravines, each carrying a single 20-200kT atom bomb, to be flown on a one-way mission to the Arab/Muslim capitals to take them out.
Unfortunately the only viable VTOL jet available today is the British Harrier. The Brits would never sell any to Israel. Of the only other users of the Harrier, Spain and India, the latter might part be enticed to part with a few in exchange for Israeli radar technology.
The Harrier, although of limited payload and range, could carry a small atom bomb, and was designed in the 60s specifically to enable NATO to still have some fight back, as the USSR would have immediately totalled all NATO's runways in the event of a war.
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Prescott2004/Highlights/Harrier.jpg)
I fear Israel's airbases are today very vulnerable.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/IAF_Bases_Map_en.png/300px-IAF_Bases_Map_en.png)
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Israel should invest NOW in 10 vertical take-off aircraft as a deterrent, stashed away in some hidden Negev wadis and some Golan and Galilee ravines, each carrying a single 20-200kT atom bomb, to be flown on a one-way mission to the Arab/Muslim capitals to take them out.
Unfortunately the only viable VTOL jet available today is the British Harrier. The Brits would never sell any to Israel. Of the only other users of the Harrier, Spain and India, the latter might part be enticed to part with a few in exchange for Israeli radar technology.
The Harrier, although of limited payload and range, could carry a small atom bomb, and was designed in the 60s specifically to enable NATO to still have some fight back, as the USSR would have immediately totalled all NATO's runways in the event of a war.
(http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Prescott2004/Highlights/Harrier.jpg)
Israel should abandon US allyship and seek out more culturally stable friends. America will one day be taken down by masses of people who have no tie to Israel or the founding fathers. Countries like India, Russia, Colombia, and if/when Chavez is ousted, Venezuela, are far more stable allies in the long run. India will always be Indian, Colombia will always be Colombian, Russia will always be Russian, and Venezuela will always be Venezuelan. "American" is a vastly nebulous term that can change at any time.
IMO America is a lost cause... a major reason I will make sure any children I have will be non-American. I do not believe in/care about any country except Israel to be truthful. If Americans want Israeli technology/allyship they should ante up a tangible vig worth Israeli time.
If technology from the UK is available elsewhere; screw the UK [Muslim lovers]... Nazi appeasers, be damned [the UK is a lost cause, chip cherrio!].
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That video reminds me that the IAF only has 9 airbases, of which most of the front-line fighters are concentrated in four of them, are all vulnerable to a preemptive missile and suicide aircraft strike from Syria, Egypt, Iran, Jordan and even Hamas and Hizbollah.
If the runways/command & control are damaged
Runways are very hard to hit and can be fixed in hour or two.
the jets can't take off = end of Israel.
Israel can repel Arab attack even withot the air support.
Israel should invest NOW in 10 vertical take-off aircraft as a deterrent, stashed away in some hidden Negev wadis and some Golan and Galilee ravines, each carrying a single 20-200kT atom bomb, to be flown on a one-way mission to the Arab/Muslim capitals to take them out.
Israel has 500 Jericho missiles in protected silos and 3 advanced submarines which can carry nuclear missiles. Also runways can be fixed quite fast as I said.
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Israel should abandon US allyship and seek out more culturally stable friends. America will one day be taken down by masses of people who have no tie to Israel or the founding fathers. Countries like India, Russia, Colombia, and if/when Chavez is ousted, Venezuela, are far more stable allies in the long run. India will always be Indian, Colombia will always be Colombian, Russia will always be Russian, and Venezuela will always be Venezuelan. "American" is a vastly nebulous term that can change at any time.
America is most stable country in the world since its creation.
1) India is poor third world country with huge Muslim population and Muslim loving leftist government. It has not veto in UN.
2) Russia is X rated pro Arab dictatorship. Its also nearly not as advanced as USA. Russia is not stable either, it consists of many republics, it also has huge Muslim population, it lives solely from oil incomes. Once oil runs out Russia will be in huge trouble.
3) Columbia and Venezuela are nothing. Little poor third world countries with no importance.
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If Sadam's 200kg reduced warhead Scuds could bring down entire Gush Dan appartment blocks (http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/2811480.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FD86974F9B729E246E591B961025B0A547B1471213465F5A1CA7CFF610D5B4FC25)
the effect of point-accurate Syrian Scarab's with 1000kg warheads on Israeli airbases doesn't bear thinking about
(http://www.zjrf.gov.cn/jstd/dzd/yuandian/ss21-5.jpg)
And Egypt's North Korean Scud's are a lot more accurate than Saddam's.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zlQH3hY9j-E/SKm36muHMuI/AAAAAAAAAyg/cfp4xbn7VyE/s320/scud-c.jpg)
And even though they haven't got missiles, don't discount the Jordanian Hashemite army and airforce to suddenly punch through to threaten and seize Jerusalem & Eilat, as predicted Zechariah 14!
It all depends who preempts first. If Israel delberately holds off as in the Yom Kippur War, she could be on the ropes: "The 2nd skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat) - "The invader will suddenly be upon you" (Yirmiya 18)
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Israel should abandon US allyship and seek out more culturally stable friends. America will one day be taken down by masses of people who have no tie to Israel or the founding fathers. Countries like India, Russia, Colombia, and if/when Chavez is ousted, Venezuela, are far more stable allies in the long run. India will always be Indian, Colombia will always be Colombian, Russia will always be Russian, and Venezuela will always be Venezuelan. "American" is a vastly nebulous term that can change at any time.
America is most stable country in the world since its creation.
1) India is poor third world country with huge Muslim population and Muslim loving leftist government. It has not veto in UN.
2) Russia is X rated pro Arab dictatorship. Its also nearly not as advanced as USA. Russia is not stable either, it consists of many republics, it also has huge Muslim population, it lives solely from oil incomes. Once oil runs out Russia will be in huge trouble.
3) Columbia and Venezuela are nothing. Little poor third world countries with no importance.
The non-Muslim Indians hate Muslims as much as Israel hates it's Muslim [occupier] citizens. I look at the Indian situation hopefully. I support "bonecrushing" military options on India's table. Elimination of all Muslims is a noble idea worth backing.
Russia does need to come around in a lot of ways... however I doubt Putin "trusts" Arabs. Russia refuses to allow even one more Mosque to be built in Moscow... an enviable policy.
Get rid of the forcefed foreign aid to Israel from America and Israel can then sell weapons and military technologies to anyone who has the money, including Russia [and China]. Russia produces an enormous amount of oil as well, some say the most in the world per country.
http://rawstory.com/2010/01/usgs-claims-venezuela-holds-earths-largest-oil-reserves/
Venezuela is an oil producing country, with new oil being found all of the time. All that matters is they have oil, and lots of it [a weak govt reliant on Israel's military edge would be ideal]. Oil is mastery over others. Colombia works closely with Israel, and Chavez should be worried about regional control. I hope Venezuela's government loses its power to a pro-Colombian/pro-Israel group.
America has BHO as president is a nightmare in present day America. American Leftists are the greatest threat to US-Israel status, they insist on pulling in immigrants from "Banana Republics" who have zero in common with our Founding Fathers because they are "have nots" and would love to vote for Leftist wealth redistribution. - Hopefully Huckabee will take the yoke out of Obama's inept hand... barring this happening... dismal future. America becomes more Leftist year after year... Bush was a major Leftist, and now we have the posterboy of Leftism in office. We shall see which way the pendulum swings in the next election.
In some ways, yes, America is a very stable country... but not in terms of social demographics. Conservative people need to out breed the immigrants.
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If Sadam's 200kg reduced warhead Scuds could bring down entire Gush Dan appartment blocks
Sadams Scuds had 250 kg warheads they did not reduce any blocks. In fact effect was very little.
the effect of point-accurate Syrian Scarab's with 1000kg warheads on Israeli airbases doesn't bear thinking about
Scarabs have 480 kg warheads and they are not point accurate at all (+-150 m).
And Egypt's North Korean Scud's are a lot more accurate than Saddam's.
They are more accurate but still not enough to hit runways. Even if runway is hit by accident it can be fiuxed very fast.
And if your fantastic scenario comes true and combined airforces of Arab countries destroy all air fields, then 10 subsonic Harriers will be just sitting ducks. They wont be able to do anything.
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The non-Muslim Indians hate Muslims as much as Israel hates it's Muslim [occupier] citizens.
Why they are voting for Muslim loving government then?
Russia does need to come around in a lot of ways... however I doubt Putin "trusts" Arabs. Russia refuses to allow even one more Mosque to be built in Moscow... an enviable policy.
Russia is the best friend of most anti Semitic regimes like Iran, Syria, Chavez etc. Russia is the only non Muslim state that invites Hamas (Mashal visited Moscow last week).
Russia produces an enormous amount of oil as well, some say the most in the world per country.
Oil resources in Russia are quite limited.
Venezuela is an oil producing country, with new oil being found all of the time. All that matters is they have oil, and lots of it [a weak govt reliant on Israel's military edge would be ideal]. Oil is mastery over others.
This oil is not enough even to enrich Venezuela itself. Poor undeveloped country.
America has BHO as president is a nightmare in present day America.
BHO will go, America will stay. US has stable overwhelming Christian majority.
American Leftists are the greatest threat to US-Israel status
American Democrates are more pro-Israeli than right wingers in other countries.
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Whoever states someone is a pedophile and states this is an article of truth should be sued. It's worse than calling someone almost anything. It's pure slander and should be meted out with some form of reprisal
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If the entire Israeli Air Force under Halutz wasn't able to silence 500 Hizbollah rocketeers in 2006, who were able to keep up a barrage of 200 rockets every day for a month, just exactly what is going to be the Israeli tactic when a newly reinvigorated Hizbollah, together with Hamas, start pummeling the whole of Israel (assuming Iran, Syria etc stay out of it)?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Gabi_Ashkenazi5.jpg/250px-Gabi_Ashkenazi5.jpg)
I suspect that the grossly overrated Gaby Ashkenazy is going to prove to be a failure, 10% worse than even Halutz! Only a goyisher general like Patton, Rommel or Montgomery would know what to do, or a ruthless leader following clear Torah like R.Kahane...or the ultimate Jewish military leader, the Moshiach ben Yosef!
Obama & Sarkozy will never allow full land invasions of Lebanon or Gaza, nor the destruction of their infrastructure, and apart from immediate use of micro-nukes, I think that the IDF will be in a quandry, with the whole population being thrown in to a typical Israeli heimishe balagan, with everyone trying to make a desperate beeline to Ben Gurion Airport in their Subarus, plus the wealthy Israelis in their BMWs attempting to flee to Cyprus in their yachts docked at the Marina in front of the Tel Aviv Hilton!
(http://defense-update.com/images/zilzal2.jpg)
Hizbollah's Zilzal ('Earthquake') "Tel Aviv" rocket with 400kg warhead
And if the IDF is not able to mobilize effectively because of jammed roads, then expect the not inconsiderable PLO forces in Yesha, plus the Hizbollah and Hamas land forces attempting to seize connurbations inside Israel proper.
And once Israeli casualties mount, Pipi Kakayoyo will quickly sue for a ceasefire!
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If the entire Israeli Air Force under Halutz wasn't able to silence 500 Hizbollah rocketeers in 2006,
They were not given right orders simply.
just exactly what is going to be the Israeli tactic when a newly reinvigorated Hizbollah, together with Hamas, start pummeling the whole of Israel (assuming Iran, Syria etc stay out of it)?
Hezi and Hamas rockets are not a threat to Israel's existence.
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Very nice
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Just two men, Shimon & Levi, slaughtered a whole town.
Gideon and 300 men destroyed an entire army.
A handful of Maccabees wiped out an entire generation of syrio-greek mercenaries.
Just two unarmed Nazi guards marched 1000 Jews meekly through the snow in 1945 to the gas chambers.
In 2006 the vaunted IDF + Air Force + Navy were unable to stop 500 Hizbollah rocketmen.
He would be a rash man indeed who would underestimate the ability of Hizbollah + Hamas alone to bring Israel's existence in to doubt, should Hashem will that we are undeserving of the Third Jewish Commonwealth!
Hezi and Hamas rockets are not a threat to Israel's existence.
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Just two men, Shimon & Levi, slaughtered a whole town.
Gideon and 300 men destroyed an entire army.
A handful of Maccabees wiped out an entire generation of syrio-greek mercenaries.
Just two unarmed Nazi guards marched 1000 Jews meekly through the snow in 1945 to the gas chambers.
In 2006 the vaunted IDF + Air Force + Navy were unable to stop 500 Hizbollah rocketmen.
He would be a rash man indeed who would underestimate the ability of Hizbollah + Hamas alone to bring Israel's existence in to doubt, should Hashem will that we are undeserving of the Third Jewish Commonwealth!
Hezi and Hamas rockets are not a threat to Israel's existence.
Comparing Gd's miracles with Nazi's is shameful and you call yourself a Jew.
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When the Jews are meritorious then "Five of you will chase a hundred of them, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand of them. You will defeat your enemies....." (Vayikra 26).
This is a miracle of Hashem.
And when the Jews are not meritorious, then "As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them" (ibid).
This is an equal miracle of Hashem!
The Holocaust was a miracle: that 6 million Jews were killed so quickly and so easily cannot be explained b'derech hateva.
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The Holocaust was a miracle: that 6 million Jews were killed so quickly and so easily cannot be explained b'derech hateva.
You'r really dafuk al kol harosh. Saying that massacre of 6 million innocent people was a G-d's miracle. >:( Schwatzes in Rwanda killed 1 million people in 3 months, armed with machetes and guns. Why it surprises you that military superpower like Germany could kill 6 million people in 6 years?
Hezbollah and Hamas are nuisance, not a threat. In fact their rockets SAVED Israel, because they prevented further withdrawals.
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It was 6 million Jews killed in 3 years, not six: the Wannsee Conference was in January 1942, and the Holocaust only got under way in earnest in mid-1942.
The Amolekite Hitler had only one 'success' in WW2: the extermination of 80% of European Jewry: 6,000 Jewish men, women and children were killed every single day for 3 years!
Everyone says they died al Kiddush Hashem. Contrarian and correct as always, Rav Kahane said no: they died al Chillul Hashem, which is also a miracle!
Study carefully Vayikra 26 and Devarim 28.
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Hezbollah and Hamas are nuisance, not a threat.
Can you imagine the panic & damage when factory-fresh Fateh 110s start landing on Dizengoff, Shenkin, Nachalat Binyamin, Givatayim, Bnei Brak, Ramat Aviv Gimel etc etc?!
http://www.debka.com/article/8591/
(http://defense-update.com/Images_new3/fateh110.jpg)
The Israeli hospitals will be overwhelmed with shock heart-attack victims alone!
The question is: how are the Israelis going to respond?!
Don't put any faith in Israeli generals with deep growly voices. Chief of Staff Gaby Ashkenazi is getting ready to have a breakdown or become zombified under stress, as happens to all Israeli Ramatkals during a crisis!
(http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2008/04/mbison-real-life.jpg)
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It was 6 million Jews killed in 3 years, not six: the Wannsee Conference was in January 1942, and the Holocaust only got under way in earnest in mid-1942.
Have you heard of Babiy Yar in 1941? By 1942 hundreds of thousands were killed by Einzatsgruppen, hundreds of thosands died from starve and deseases. Remaining Jews were weakened and concentrated in ghettos and camps. Killing them was not any problem. Even [censored] with machetes killed at higher rate. Prolly Rwanda massacre, Armenian Genocode, genocide in Bangladesh 1971 are also "miracles" for you.
Can you imagine the panic & damage when factory-fresh Fateh 110s start landing on Dizengoff, Shenkin, Nachalat Binyamin, Givatayim, Bnei Brak, Ramat Aviv Gimel etc etc?!
In 1991 Saddam fired 38 Scuds at Tel Aviv and Haifa. Only 1 was killed. This kind of missile sare very hard to conceal in little Lebanon. Most of them will be destroyed by IAF.
The question is: how are the Israelis going to respond?!
More of the same.
Don't put any faith in Israeli generals with deep growly voices.
I served in IDF and I know what to expect from our generals. I dont expect any radical change. But even 2006 style response was enough to deter Hezballoons.
The real threat to Israel is DEMOGRAPHY. Unfortunately we are breeding Arabs with our own hands by giving them welf support.
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And what about Jewish hero Joshua? how come I hardly ever see you supporting him? how come you dont ever comment on his threads here? why dont you praise this Jewish hero who has done so much for the JTF movement & instead always sticky ira's videos, praise & promote them but never sticky, praise or promote Jewish hero Joshua?
One should not be desperately seeking praise all the time. In any case, from I have seen Chaim praises the people who make videos all the time, especiallly 4 international and Joshua. So I'm not sure what you're so upset about.
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The Holocaust was a miracle: that 6 million Jews were killed so quickly and so easily cannot be explained b'derech hateva.
You'r really dafuk al kol harosh. Saying that massacre of 6 million innocent people was a G-d's miracle. >:( Schwatzes in Rwanda killed 1 million people in 3 months, armed with machetes and guns. Why it surprises you that military superpower like Germany could kill 6 million people in 6 years?
Hezbollah and Hamas are nuisance, not a threat. In fact their rockets SAVED Israel, because they prevented further withdrawals.
Welcome to the forum, Amit. Your comments have been very wise thus far. Great to see.
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Kahane,
I do not understand when Jews on this forum say the Holocaust was "punishment" for Jewish transgressions or now a "miracle." When I read these kinds of statements, I perceive them as anti-semetic and vicious. How is this different from Christian Identity racists saying that the Jews killed Christ and that we have forsaken our day of grace. Can you explain what is truly being said when people make statements like this about the Holocaust??
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A "miracle" in the sense of eg that an unknown Charlie Chaplin-type wall-paper hanger arose from nowhere to reach the very edge of world domination...and then threw it away by frittering German military energy in to a maniacal Amolekite desire to exterminate the harmless-to-him Jew: this is as miraculous as Haman's rise to power and getting Ahasuerus' ring, and then his precipitous downfall....and many other cases throught history. Ahamadinejad may well soon be yet another case in point in the open & hidden miracles of Jewish history......!
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Wonga,
Thank you for taking the time to try and explain this to me. I appreciate it, but I don't see how those parables are analogous to the "miracle" inherent in the murder of 6 millions Jews.
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Have you read Vayikra 26 and Devarim 28 carefully?
They show clearly show that when the Jew deserves it, he has a miraculous victory.
And when the Jew doesn't, Hashem arranges a miraculous defeat.
What's the problem in understanding that?
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Oh I'm sorry, I am very ignorant. I don't even know what those are Wonga.
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In 1991 Saddam fired 38 Scuds at Tel Aviv and Haifa. Only 1 was killed.
The last Scud Saddam fired killed 28 US soldiers and injured 100 (ie delimbed and blinded them) in Saudi Arabia, to remind people how Hashem could have made Israel's casualties very many, if not for His open mercy at that time.
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Oh I'm sorry, I am very ignorant. I don't even know what those are Wonga.
Let's start with Vayikra 26:
'If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 4 I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit. 5 Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.
6 " 'I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove savage beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. 7 You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
9 " 'I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you. 10 You will still be eating last year's harvest when you will have to move it out to make room for the new. 11 I will put my dwelling place [a] among you, and I will not abhor you. 12 I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.
Punishment for Disobedience
14 " 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 " 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
23 " 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.
36 " 'As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers' sins they will waste away.
40 " 'But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers—their treachery against me and their hostility toward me, 41 which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD.' "
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And then to really ram it home, Dvarim 28:
If you fully obey the LORD your G-d and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your G-d will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your G-d:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.
4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.
6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.
8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your G-d will bless you in the land he is giving you.
9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your G-d and walk in his ways. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.
12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your G-d that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.
Curses for Disobedience
15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your G-d and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.
17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.
20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. [a] 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.
25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.
30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the LORD will drive you.
38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.
43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.
45 All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your G-d and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your G-d joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.
49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your G-d is giving you.
53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your G-d has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.
58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your G-d- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your G-d. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.
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Thank you. I read all of that in detail, but those all describe punishment to the individual, nothing on the scale of 6 million, nothing close. Those paragraphs describe punishment for individual transgressions
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And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
28:67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would G-d it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would G-d it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
Does this sound like the onesh for individual transgressions?!
The Hebrew is all in the plural.
"No clearer pronouncements are necessary to show that Auschwitz is foretold in these verses" ("The Inescapable Truth", Rabbi Eli Gottlieb, p300).
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And when the Jew doesn't, Hashem arranges a miraculous defeat.
What's the problem in understanding that?
Your use of the term "miraculous" here is mistaken and is the precise cause of the confusion. He will arrange defeat, but that is not "miraculous," it is tragic.
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Kahane,
I do not understand when Jews on this forum say the Holocaust was "punishment" for Jewish transgressions or now a "miracle." When I read these kinds of statements, I perceive them as anti-semetic and vicious.
Well, I agree with you. Such statements are reprehensible in my opinion. So I also don't understand why people say them, although I suspect it stems from improper understanding of how the world works and the overall hashkafa (worldview) of Judaism. Once someone adopts a twisted hashkafa and sacrifices their intellect to it, they will say any crazy thing.
Also usually people who say such things did not experience the events personally and often have limited to no personal connection at all to what happened (ie not to their family members, etc).
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The only thing I'll add to this thread for now is I appreciate the efforts of everyone who is trying to enhance JTF. Sometimes we will disagree on some topics. Yet, what stands out is how many enemies we have. That's why its imperative we can agree to disagree at times as in the case in this thread. But still work towards the overall goal of helping save the United States, Israel, and Western Civilization.
Eb22, I will agree with you. The most important thing is this: our members of the JTF all get along at the end of the day, despite any differences. Our common strong point is as you mentioned: We must remember who the real enemies are.
May G-d bless you Eb22 for being fair to everyone here, and you are very bright...you bring up many excellent points that I and others here see.
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The only thing I'll add to this thread for now is I appreciate the efforts of everyone who is trying to enhance JTF. Sometimes we will disagree on some topics. Yet, what stands out is how many enemies we have. That's why its imperative we can agree to disagree at times as in the case in this thread. But still work towards the overall goal of helping save the United States, Israel, and Western Civilization.
Eb22, I will agree with you. The most important thing is this: our members of the JTF all get along at the end of the day, despite any differences. Our common strong point is as you mentioned: We must remember who the real enemies are.
May G-d bless you Eb22 for being fair to everyone here, and you are very bright...you bring up many excellent points that I and others here see.
Thanks, Dox. Your thoughts are very much appreciated. G-d Bless You and the JTF family as a whole!
I'm glad that everything settled down. Between the Liberals ( who now call themselves Progressives ), Muslims, Nazis , and 911 is an Inside Job Conspiracy Freaks ( many who are Nazis ), it's imperative that JTF stays united. And grows!
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UNITED WE STAND !!! :usa: :israel: :usa+israel:
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In 1991 Saddam fired 38 Scuds at Tel Aviv and Haifa. Only 1 was killed.
The last Scud Saddam fired killed 28 US soldiers and injured 100 (ie delimbed and blinded them) in Saudi Arabia, to remind people how Hashem could have made Israel's casualties very many, if not for His open mercy at that time.
But dozens of other Scuds did not kill anyone. Suicide terror is much more lethal.
Also Lebanon is much smaller than Iraq and today we have much better surveillance technologies than in 1991. So it will be impossible for hebollah to launch large number of big missiles like Scud. Also today we have upgraded Patriots, Arrow (Hetz), Iron Dome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4_2sMmXsIU
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Scuds no, but half-size Zilzals and Fatehs they could launch.
in 2006 Hizbollah fired 6000 rockets in to Israel in 1 month.
If their hand had not been prematurely forced by the useful idiot Olmert, they would by today, 4 years later, have amassed an arsenal right up by the border capable of firing 30,000 rockets in to Israel in 1 week, from 5kg warhead katyushas up to 400kg warhead Zilzals.
Don't tell me that that wouldn't be an existential threat to the Medina!
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Scuds no, but half-size Zilzals and Fatehs they could launch.
Very limited number.
in 2006 Hizbollah fired 6000 rockets in to Israel in 1 month.
4000.
If their hand had not been prematurely forced by the useful idiot Olmert, they would by today, 4 years later, have amassed an arsenal right up by the border capable of firing 30,000 rockets in to Israel in 1 week, from 5kg warhead katyushas up to 400kg warhead Zilzals.
In 2006 Hezbollah fired
~ 4000 122-mm Grads
~ 150 220-240-mm Fajar-3 and Raads
28 302-330 Fajar-5 and Khaibars
They did not manage to launch a single Zelzal.
28 Fajar-5 and Khaibars caused virtualy no damage.
30,000 rockets in 1 week is pure hallucination. Number of Grads will hardy increase compare to previous war. Number of 200 and 300 mm class rockets may increase 2-3 times plus they might launch several Zelzals. Thats not something that will destroy Israel.
Soon will be ready Iron Dome which can shoot down 200-300 mm class rockets.
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90% of the residents of the Galilee fled south in 2006, and that casualties were low is a nes. One of the smallest katyushas killed 12 Israeli soldiers, just as a soupcon to remind Israelis what kind of casualties could have happened. Where is everyone going to flee if north, central and southern Israel gets hit simultaneously, by Hizbollah and Hamas?
Even if infrastructure is not damaged (disabling of the Haifa oil plant and ammonia farms, or the Hadera and Ashdod electric power stations doesn't bear thinking about) and casualties are low, the population will go in to paralytic shock: "The 2nd skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
Sufficient paralytic shock that the PA, Israeli Arabs and even some surrounding nations might be tempted to join in in an yitbach al yahud mode!
Jus' what is Gabi going to do DIFFERENTLY than the semi-incompetent Halutz?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
Short of using micro-nukes, WHAT is going to be the Israeli response?
With Obama as president and that verfluchter polak Brzezinski advising him, Israel's hands are going to be really tied.
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90% of the residents of the Galilee fled south in 2006,
Thats not true.
and that casualties were low is a nes.
No, rockets are simply not effective.
38 scuds in 1991 - 1 killed.
4000 Hezbollah missiles in 2006 - 44 killed.
8000 Kassams from 2002-2010 - 20 killed.
Suicide bombers from 1994-2008 killed over 1000. So why "miracles" are so sellective?
Where is everyone going to flee if north, central and southern Israel gets hit simultaneously, by Hizbollah and Hamas?
When someone pushes Israelis to corner they mobilize and strike back hard. This happaned before.
Even if infrastructure is not damaged (disabling of the Haifa oil plant and ammonia farms, or the Hadera and Ashdod electric power stations doesn't bear thinking about) and casualties are low, the population will go in to paralytic shock: "The 2nd skin of every Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat).
Why you repeat anti Semitic slogans of some Nazi Arab?
Jus' what is Gabi going to do DIFFERENTLY than the semi-incompetent Halutz?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
Short of using micro-nukes, WHAT is going to be the Israeli response?
I dont expect much difference as I said. But 2006 was very heavy blow to Hezbollah and Lebanese shiites. If they strike Tel Aviv blow will be even more hard.
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Nazi 'primitive' V rockets killed 10,000 British. 600 Allied soldiers and Belgian civilians were killed by just one V rocket alone on Antwerp. 2000 Iranians were killed in Tehran and 6000 injured by Iraqi Scuds in 1988. 3 million fled Tehran. Rockets can be very effective. That they haven't caused major Israeli casualties to date is a nes.
500,000 Israelis fled the North in 2006. Safed, Rosh Pina, Kiryat Shmona, Kfar Vradim, Tiberias, Meron, Shlomi, Karmiel etc all emptied out 50-90%. I know: I was there!
Sadat's quote about a Jew's innate fear is a truism and is always being used by Prof Eidelberg.
I expect round II against Hizbollah to be VERY different!
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Nazi 'primitive' V rockets killed 10,000 British. 600 Allied soldiers and Belgian civilians were killed by just one V rocket alone on Antwerp. 2000 Iranians were killed in Tehran and 6000 injured by Iraqi Scuds in 1988. 3 million fled Tehran. Rockets can be very effective. That they haven't caused major Israeli casualties to date is a nes.
1) They did not kill 10,000 British but less than 3 thousands.
2) Germans fired THOUSANDS of V2 rockets. No one will let Lebanese to fire this amount of large missiles. They will fire dozen Zelzals at maximum.
3) So there was only 2 killed per V2 missile. And number of casualties from rockets drastically decreases thanks to warning systems. There is not any "nes".
500,000 Israelis fled the North in 2006. Safed, Rosh Pina, Kiryat Shmona, Kfar Vradim, Tiberias, Meron, Shlomi, Karmiel etc all emptied out 50-90%. I know: I was there!
Yep 50% is more close than 90%. I live in Haifa and very few left it.
Sadat's quote about a Jew's innate fear is a truism and is always being used by Prof Eidelberg.
Thats primitive anti Semitism. Jews are a brave nation.
I expect round II against Hizbollah to be VERY different!
You expect in vain.
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3000 Brits were killed by the V2. Another 6000 were killed by the V1. Plus tens of thousands of badly injured ie living dead. Not including the many killed in Belgium.
Red Haifa is not the Galilee.
The Galilee was largely empted out of Jews (a fulfilment of the Mishnaic prophecy that "before Ben David comes.....the Galilee will be destroyed" - Sotah 49?!).
The Galilee Arabs stayed, many cheering on the Hizbollah rockets, just as they cheered on Saddam's SCUDs in 1991, even if it meant their own deaths!
Jews were brave once.
But 2000 years of pachad in the Exile, plus the effects of demoralising, prideless, pro-Arab, anti-G-d, anti-Torah, anti-Kahanist secularist Israeli leftist education, plus distorted Tenach-less Haredi education that constantly preaches minimising Israel's biblical borders, I fear has removed a large part of that bravery from the Jew.
A large part of this is also due to the so-called "Gedolim" with their emphasis on "pikuach nefesh" ie that all steps must be taken to save lives - INCLUDING giving up Eretz Yisrael.
This has undermined the Orthodox world, who by rights, should be the bravest Jews, but with a few exceptions such as the Nahal Haredi, are largely big, beared Hassidic poltroons who cower at a yapping poodle!
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3000 Brits were killed by the V2. Another 6000 were killed by the V1.
Thats less than 2 killed per ballistic missile. Today with warning systems number of killed will drastically decrease. So if Hezbollah fires 10 Zelzals will be ten killed or so.
Red Haifa is not the Galilee.
Haifa was attacked by rockets.
The Galilee was largely empted out of Jews (a fulfilment of the Mishnaic prophecy that "before Ben David comes.....the Galilee will be destroyed" - Sotah 49?!).
Galilee was not empted and surely not destroyed.
The Galilee Arabs stayed, many cheering on the Hizbollah rockets, just as they cheered on Saddam's SCUDs in 1991, even if it meant their own deaths!
There were many who left too. Arabs are simply more poor and they dont have relatives in other places.
Jews were brave once.
Jews were brave uncounted times. Otherwise there would not be any Jews. They would convert to Christianity and Islam like many other nations did. Jews were brave otherwise they would not establish and defend Israel.
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300,000-500,000 Israelis were displaced in the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
I witnessed the Eastern Galilee being largely empty of human Jewish life.
Most of Hizbollah's rockets were 5kg "firecracker' katyushas, were still plenty loud enough. The crump of 30kg Fajrs up to 400kg Zelzals landing in Gush Dan will be a different ball game. It needs a few landing in Bnei Brak to shake the Haredim up. But the innured chilloni Israelis will only get the message when they land on Shenkin and Ramat Aviv Gimel! Only then the Israelis might possibly give a response worthy of the name!
"BYE BYE ISRAEL
by Barry Chamish
The lessons of the 2006 war were well learned in the war councils of Teheran, Damascus and Cairo. Egypt and Iran entered a missile race to see who could supply more rockets to Israel's enemies. Within barely a year of the war, over 20,000 new short and medium range missiles were aimed at Israel. When Syria entered the war on the third day, Israel was buried alive.
Day One - In a massive coordinated attack, some 6,000 missiles hit the Tel Aviv area, knocking out much of the military's operating and intelligence networks. Hundreds die in the rubble. The survivors are in panic. The Israeli government has left the country before the airport is overwhelmed first by terrified civilians, then by the enemy.
Day Two - Another 6,000 missiles are shot throughout the country, knocking out electricity and isolating army units into pockets, defeatable by anti-tank missiles. They are first attacked by the Palestinians and their missiles, then Israeli Arabs, then Arabs from everywhere.
Day Three - Syria enters the war and fires 10,000 rockets on its first day. Israel is now in sheer chaos; it has all broken down. In East Jerusalem, 140,000 Arabs march to the Jewish West. They have burned the Jewish Quarter of the Old City and are now streaming out from every gate. Many Jews run to the forests, but they'll die of thirst if they manage to evade capture and fatal abuse. The Western Wall is destroyed with its rabbis and worshipers forced to watch. They are led away in tears. None is ever seen again. With the enemy coordinated and Israel without a chain of command, the nation has already disappeared. The enemy first takes over isolated settlements, breaking their defenses and their wills. The men are hunted down. They are gathered together to watch their wives and children raped. Anyone who dares turn his eyes away is shot, if he's lucky, fatally. Those who survive will soon dangle from the nearest meat hooks or other useful slow death apparati.
Day Four - Word is out in Damascus, Cairo, Amman, and throughout the Middle East, that Israel is for the taking. The Zionist leaders were ready for flight and were gone. The people were left behind to be slaughtered. Syrian soldiers were now flushing "proud" Jewish soldiers out of the isolated IDF camps. Many of these soldiers were not going to fight to the end. They left the camps with their hands in the air, totally defeated. In the cities and towns, Israelis walked down shattered streets, looking for safety. There was none. It was better to be old and ugly and maybe get shot. For the attractive ladies dressed in top brands, death never came quickly enough. The lovely ladies of Judaism were mass raped, left to consider their fate in the ruins of their homes and then, maybe, shot only once through the head.
Day Five - America calls for a UN ceasefire, but it is too late. The men in their Peugeots are rushing to Israel for the treasure or the scraps; maybe they'll have to settle for a feeble old man. If nothing else, he would know the humiliation of being sodomized. The Jews had sat back, ignored reality and let their government sell out the nation's resources and defenses. They couldn't see that the Jews had been infiltrated and their leaders were betraying them to death. And they won't see it next time, when the third Holocaust begins."
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So in response to logic and factual answers by Amit, you cut and paste a long tome by chamish (which he dreamt up in his fantasies) hoping that we'll all be convinced against our better judgement.... This is called throwing the ____ against the wall and hoping something sticks....
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Your misplaced confidence that the next round with Hizbollah will be more, if not less of the same is stunning! http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152777.html
In every war that Israel fights there's always nasty surprises, shocks, failures
and incompetenece, sent by Hashem to shake the Jew up.
There is nothing Hashem dislikes more than over-confident, smug, self-satisfied Israelis who boast that "it is my strength and my prowess that has wrought me these victories" (Shmos 9).
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300,000-500,000 Israelis were displaced in the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War
I witnessed the Eastern Galilee being largely empty of human Jewish life.
People were not walking in streets but most did not left.
Most of Hizbollah's rockets were 5kg "firecracker' katyushas, were still plenty loud enough. The crump of 30kg Fajrs up to 400kg Zelzals landing in Gush Dan will be a different ball game.
Hezbollah did not fire any "Katyushas". They fired Grad missiles with 22 kg warheads.
Day One - In a massive coordinated attack, some 6,000 missiles hit the Tel Aviv area, knocking out much of the military's operating and intelligence networks. Hundreds die in the rubble. The survivors are in panic. The Israeli government has left the country before the airport is overwhelmed first by terrified civilians, then by the enemy.
1) Hezbollah cant fire 6000 missiles in one day, not even close. If they try very very hard thay can fire 600 short range missiles and dozen of long range.
2) Hezbollah rokets dont have enough accuracy to damange infrastructures, especialy military networks.
Day Two - Another 6,000 missiles are shot throughout the country, knocking out electricity and isolating army units into pockets, defeatable by anti-tank missiles. They are first attacked by the Palestinians and their missiles, then Israeli Arabs, then Arabs from everywhere.
1) They wont be able to fire 6000 missiles, not even 600.
2) During the Yom Kippur war, Israeli forces in Deversour fought under barrage of 2000 artillery pieces, tens of thousands of shells a day. Rockets are much less accurate than artillery shells and hardly can cause much damage to army.
Day Three - Syria enters the war and fires 10,000 rockets on its first day. Israel is now in sheer chaos; it has all broken down. In East Jerusalem, 140,000 Arabs march to the Jewish West. They have burned the Jewish Quarter of the Old City and are now streaming out from every gate. Many Jews run to the forests, but they'll die of thirst if they manage to evade capture and fatal abuse. The Western Wall is destroyed with its rabbis and worshipers forced to watch. They are led away in tears. None is ever seen again. With the enemy coordinated and Israel without a chain of command, the nation has already disappeared. The enemy first takes over isolated settlements, breaking their defenses and their wills. The men are hunted down. They are gathered together to watch their wives and children raped. Anyone who dares turn his eyes away is shot, if he's lucky, fatally. Those who survive will soon dangle from the nearest meat hooks or other useful slow death apparati.
There is no any chaos in Israel. IDF is fully mobilized. 6-7 divisions are preparing or already entering Lebanon. 2-3 divisions are on alert on Golan. 1 division near Gaza, 1 division + Kfir Brigade + Magav in Yosh. IAF destroyed ports and bridges in Lebanon, leveling Dahya, bombing South and Baalbek.
I doubt looking at leveled Dahya Assad will decide to enter the war. But if he enters he cant do much. His airforce almost does not exist. Tanks are old and rusty and cant do anything against Israeli Merkavas. His rockets are not accurate and cant cause much harm to the army. If he fires at towns then It will give Israel free hand to level all objects in Syria.
Day Four - Word is out in Damascus, Cairo, Amman, and throughout the Middle East, that Israel is for the taking. The Zionist leaders were ready for flight and were gone. The people were left behind to be slaughtered. Syrian soldiers were now flushing "proud" Jewish soldiers out of the isolated IDF camps. Many of these soldiers were not going to fight to the end. They left the camps with their hands in the air, totally defeated. In the cities and towns, Israelis walked down shattered streets, looking for safety. There was none. It was better to be old and ugly and maybe get shot. For the attractive ladies dressed in top brands, death never came quickly enough. The lovely ladies of Judaism were mass raped, left to consider their fate in the ruins of their homes and then, maybe, shot only once through the head.
Day four. IDF captures 20 km strip in Lebanon, continues massive bombings. Arabs cry about Israeli cruelty and beg for cease fire.
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Hezbollah did not fire any "Katyushas". They fired Grad missiles with 22 kg warheads.
22kg warhead (= 48 lbs) is x4 too high for most of the rockets fired in 2006:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
"Most of the rockets Hizbollah had, perhaps 80 percent or more, were a World War II Russian design. This 122mm rocket had a range of 20 kilometers and a 13 pound (= 5.9kg) warhead. There were also a number of longer range 122mm rockets, in this case 30 kilometers. Apparently, this model had the same 13 pound warhead, and achieved its increased range by being longer and heavier (standard 122mm rockets are nine feet long and weigh 150 pounds)."
(http://www.sightedmoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Hezbollah%20Rocket%20Launcher.JPG)
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Your misplaced confidence that the next round with Hizbollah will be more, if not less of the same is stunning! http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152777.html
In every war that Israel fights there's always nasty surprises, shocks, failures
and incompetenece, sent by Hashem to shake the Jew up.
There is nothing Hashem dislikes more than over-confident, smug, self-satisfied Israelis who boast that "it is my strength and my prowess that has wrought me these victories" (Shmos 9).
You always claim to know what Hashem likes and dislikes, what He will do and what He will not do. Give me a break from this rubbish. I am also curious to know what the phrase "more, if not less" means. Quite funny.
No one should be arrogant, but no one should be a cowering wimpering fearful little jewboy like the way you are acting either. We are only supposed to fear Hashem. Nothing and no one else.
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When Hashem uses the goy as a chastisement tool on the Jew, we are meant to fear the goy too: "Assyria is the rod of My anger" (Yeshaya 10), "Nebuchadnezzar is My servant!"(Yirmiya 43).
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Hezbollah did not fire any "Katyushas". They fired Grad missiles with 22 kg warheads.
22kg warhead (= 48 lbs) is x4 too high for most of the rockets fired in 2006:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
"Most of the rockets Hizbollah had, perhaps 80 percent or more, were a World War II Russian design. This 122mm rocket had a range of 20 kilometers and a 13 pound (= 5.9kg) warhead. There were also a number of longer range 122mm rockets, in this case 30 kilometers. Apparently, this model had the same 13 pound warhead, and achieved its increased range by being longer and heavier (standard 122mm rockets are nine feet long and weigh 150 pounds)."
(http://www.sightedmoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Hezbollah%20Rocket%20Launcher.JPG)
Your link is wrong. There were not any 122-mm in WW2. In WW2 they used 82, 132 and 300-mmm Katyushas.
122-mm is Grad. Grad was first introduced in 1963 and has 18-24 kg warhead, depending on model.
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Do those tubes look like they're for a rocket with a 22kg warhead?!
I heard these 13lb warheads go off and the damage they did: no way were they 48lbs of explosive. On Haifa & Natzeret Hizbollah launched heavier stuff, but the majority of their rockets fired, those on Kiryat Shmona, Safed, Rosh Pina etc, were 13 pounders.
This is typical of the damage caused by the small 13 lb warhead (http://www.yonitheblogger.com/rocket%20damage.jpg)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/images/leba.JPG)
And this typical of the considerably greater damage wrought by their bigger warheads on Haifa
(http://img.youtube.com/vi/9juGmjFlUNw/0.jpg)
and from Hamas on Ashkelon
(http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/2008-SDJW-quarter2/20080523-grad-rocket_damage.jpg)
Of course anything in the Zilzal/SS21/Scud 400kg-1000kg range, and you can say goodbye to the whole bloody block!
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Grad is only 122 mm (4.8 inch) in diameter. This is how Grad missile looks:
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4841/122mm.jpg)
Depending on model, Grad has 18.4 kg (9M22U) to 25 kg (9M522) warhead.
And this typical of the considerably greater damage wrought by their bigger warheads on Haifa
Haifa was attacked by Fajar-3 and Raad 220-240 mm missiles with 85-100 kg warheads.
No missiles had 13 lb warhead.
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No missiles had 13 lb warhead.
This is incorrect.
'Katyusha' is not a specific missile, but rather a vast generic class of rockets. They have warheads varying from 1lb up to 100lb+, including Gaza backshop-made Qassams.
Most that fell on the Eastern Galilee had 13lb warheads
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
and as you can check from Israeli reports at the time.
Such as this example with a 'small' 13lb (6kg) warhead [not 40lb - c20kg!]
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/75/192498019_35f0c09452.jpg)
A 'Grad' in modern parlance refers to a specific factory made larger rocket, c9' long with a c40lb warhead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21
Though as can be seen from the chart of "Projectiles" at the end, the Romanians did make a c6' version with a c13lb warhead.
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This is incorrect.
This is correct. Hezbollah used 3 types of missiles:
122-mm Grad
220-240 mm Raad and Fajar 3
302 mm Khaibar-1
all of them have 40 lb and larger warheads.
'Katyusha' is not a specific missile, but rather a vast generic class of rockets. They have warheads varying from 1lb up to 100lb+, including Gaza backshop-made Qassams.
No. Katyusha is name of WW2 Soviet rockets. When other rockets are called Katyushas thats simply lame journalism.
Most that fell on the Eastern Galilee had 13lb warheads
I tell u zillionth time. Rockets that hit Eastern Galilee were 122-mm, and 122-mm have 40 lb warheads.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
Thats perfect example of lame journalism. Hezbollah did not fire any ww2 era rockets.
Such as this example with a 'small' 13lb (6kg) warhead [not 40lb - c20kg!]
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/75/192498019_35f0c09452.jpg)
Missile on pic is Grad-P. It's a regular Grad missile with 40 lb warhead just with one tube. You can google about Grad-P.
A 'Grad' in modern parlance refers to a specific factory made larger rocket, c9' long with a c40lb warhead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21
All Grads used by Hezbollah are factory made with 40lb warheads.
Though as can be seen from the chart of "Projectiles" at the end, the Romanians did make a c6' version with a c13lb warhead.
Hezbollah uses Chinese and USSR made Grads.
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From Israeli report:
7. The types of rockets and fragments used by Hezbollah during the war were:
a. Rockets containing ball bearings
1) 220 mm rockets made in Syria carrying ball bearings 6
mm (1/4”) in diameter.
2) 122 mm rockets made in China carrying ball bearings 6
mm in diameter (which Hezbollah received from Iran and Syria).
3) 122 mm rockets made in China carrying anti-tank/anti-
personnel bomblets, which in addition to the shell casing carry ball
bearings 3.5 mm (about 1/8”) in diameter (which Hezbollah received
from Iran and Syria).
b. Rockets containing square-shaped fragments: 302 mm rockets made
in Syria containing 16 mm (about 2/3”) square-shaped fragments.
c. Rockets with high-explosive warheads: 122 mm rockets made in
Russia whose shell casing is made of grooved steel.
d. High explosive frag warheads:
1) 240 mm Iranian Falaq-1 rockets
2) 240 mm Iranian Fajr-3 rockets
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Hizbollah also has non-Grad rockets smaller than 122mm, and Grads with warheads less than 22kg, y'now!
(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5315/rock2.jpg)
Are you saying that this
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3796443,00.html
and this
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
and their references to Hizbollah 107mm rockets and rockets with 13lb warheads
are wrong?
Does this damage caused by a 6kg (13lb) warhead
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3782/rockk.jpg)
look the same to you as this caused by a 22kg warhead?!
(http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080514/080514-Ashkelon-hmed-10a.hmedium.jpg)
And as you can see here, 122mm Grads are made with warheads from 6kg up to 25kg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21_Grad
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Are you saying that this
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3796443,00.html
and this
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20060818.aspx
and their references to Hizbollah 107mm rockets and rockets with 13lb warheads
are wrong?
Yep they are wrong.
20. During the second Lebanon war Hezbollah fired close to 4,000 rockets of 6 various types into Israeli territory. The bomb squads of the Israeli Police Department identified 1,381 rocket and mortar hits of the 4,000, distributed as follows:
a. 859 122 mm HE-frag rockets.
b. 228 122 mm expanded range rockets.
c. 113 122 mm cluster bomb rockets
d. 86 220 mm rockets.
e. 30 302 mm rockets.
f. Six 240 mm rockets (Fajr-3).
g. Five 240 mm rockets (Falaq)
h. One 107 mm rocket manufactured by North Korea.
i. 33 unidentifiable rockets (which were observed by security forces but fell
in inaccessible sites).
j. 20 81 mm, 120 mm and 160 mm high explosive shells.
As u can see, out of 1,381 identified rockets 859+228+113= 1200 were 122-mm rockets and only one 107-mm.
And as you can see here, 122mm Grads are made with warheads from 6kg up to 25kg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21_Grad
Only Romanian versions have 6 kg. But Hezbollah used Chinese and Russian.
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When Hashem uses the goy as a chastisement tool on the Jew, we are meant to fear the goy too: "Assyria is the rod of My anger" (Yeshaya 10), "Nebuchadnezzar is My servant!"(Yirmiya 43).
Where does it say to fear goyim?! Not what you quoted.
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Give us that link. Nowhere does it refer to the warhead weights.
122mm does not necessarily mean 22kg warheads. Hizbollah rockets came via Iran, who have their own rocket & explosive industry and make their own modifications, including reducing the warhead to extend the range.
I heard the explosions and saw the damage in the Galillee, & know the difference twixt 6kg and 22kg going off!
Surely you know that a 6kg warhead will damage a room.
A 22kg warhead can destroy a whole appartment.
You say you were in Haifa. You saw the damage 50kg warhead Fajrs did on Haifa, which could total a cottage and bring down a whole chunk of a building?
Do these look to you like the result of 6kg, 22kg or 50kg explosions?!
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6951/rockethouse.jpg)
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3782/rockk.jpg)
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Give us that link. Nowhere does it refer to the warhead weights.
You provided a link by yourself. Standard Grad missiles have 40 lb warheads. Only Romanian versions have less.
A 22kg warhead can destroy a whole appartment.
Do these look to you like the result of 6kg, 22kg or 50kg explosions?!
22 kg warhead does not mean 22 kg of explosives. Much less. Prolly thats source of your mistake, u mix up warhead weight with weight of explosives.
You say you were in Haifa. You saw the damage 50kg warhead Fajrs did on Haifa, which could total a cottage and bring down a whole chunk of a building?
Base 122-mm 9M22U rocket has 18.4 kg warhead and 6.4 kg of explosives.
Base 220-mm 9N128F has 100 kg warhead and 51.7 kg of explosives.
I.e. 220-mm carries almost 10 times more explosives!
And not always damage was large. Here example of post in Haifa hit by 220 or 240-mm rocket:
(http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/04062007/1153051/doar_haifa.jpg)
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What is the link to your 'Israeli report'?
From Israeli report:
7. The types of rockets and fragments used by Hezbollah during the war were:
a. Rockets containing ball bearings
1) 220 mm rockets made in Syria carrying ball bearings 6
mm (1/4”) in diameter.
2) 122 mm rockets made in China carrying ball bearings 6
mm in diameter (which Hezbollah received from Iran and Syria).
3) 122 mm rockets made in China carrying anti-tank/anti-
personnel bomblets, which in addition to the shell casing carry ball
bearings 3.5 mm (about 1/8”) in diameter (which Hezbollah received
from Iran and Syria).
b. Rockets containing square-shaped fragments: 302 mm rockets made
in Syria containing 16 mm (about 2/3”) square-shaped fragments.
c. Rockets with high-explosive warheads: 122 mm rockets made in
Russia whose shell casing is made of grooved steel.
d. High explosive frag warheads:
1) 240 mm Iranian Falaq-1 rockets
2) 240 mm Iranian Fajr-3 rockets
-
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/hiz/part3.pdf
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So when Ynet News
as eg here http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3251453,00.html
and Strategypage are talking about a "13lb warhead" and "six kilograms of explosive", you mean they are really referring to "a 22kg warhead containing 13lb of explosive (6kg)"?!
Apart from the manufacturers, I bet the only ones who can give a authoritative answer as to the exact type and make, the weight of warhead and the weight of explosive contained therein in the bulk of the smallest rockets fired by Hizbollah in 2006, is Janes of London. I'm gonna send them an email.
As usual, when it comes to technicalities, the Israelis are the last to get it right! I wouldn't put too much truck in Erlich's article, especially that it was written with "IDF assistance"!
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If Hizbollah start pummeling Ben Gurion airport http://www.debka.com/article/8619/ it most definitely won't be "more of the same"! In the unlikely event that Barak is serious, things could go End Time within minutes!
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So when Ynet News
as eg here http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3251453,00.html
and Strategypage are talking about a "13lb warhead" and "six kilograms of explosive", you mean they are really referring to "a 22kg warhead containing 13lb of explosive (6kg)"?!
Maybe. Anyhow warhead weight =! weight of explosive. Weight of explosive is usualy 2-3 times lower.
Apart from the manufacturers, I bet the only ones who can give a authoritative answer as to the exact type and make, the weight of warhead and the weight of explosive contained therein in the bulk of the smallest rockets fired by Hizbollah in 2006, is Janes of London. I'm gonna send them an email
Data on Grad missiles is well known. Janes makes lots of mistakes as well. Of example they still count T-55 and Centurions in inventory of IDF, although they were phased out 15-20 years ago.
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"Jane's Ammunition Handbook" gives the total warhead as 18.3kg, and the explosive in it as 6.4kg.
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It looks like the Hamas Ashkelon rocket was a very nastily enhanced Chinese version of the Grad
http://defense-update.com/newscast/1208/analysis/311208_palestinians_use_chineese_ws2e_extendedrange_rockets.html
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_j1WCY4T_2yI/SWuRO3jTtTI/AAAAAAAAFbQ/RaMwCcgvk2A/s400/hamas-rockets-2008-3.jpg)