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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on June 21, 2010, 03:43:33 PM

Title: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 21, 2010, 03:43:33 PM
What is your opinion?

Let me define my version of evolution:

All living things originated from a common ancestor and over millions of years branched out to what we have today.  What has caused to differentiation of species over this period of time could have been from physical barriers and adjustments to survival based on the environment.

Evolution could have continued with humans, for example, if Africa had never been explored for millions of years and nobody every migrated there or vice versa.  The same could be true with North America, South America, Australia, Europe, or Asia.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 21, 2010, 03:57:25 PM
I don't understand some of your answer choices.

"I disagree completely, Humans came from apes"

Wouldn't humans coming from apes be agreeing with evolution?
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: angryChineseKahanist on June 21, 2010, 04:18:43 PM
Obama is proof that negros came from retarded apes.

the book of genisis can arguably be about evolution.  from the big bang thery to the creation of the sun and the spining earth giving us night and day. then adam and eve probably homo erectus to modern human.


Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 04:42:49 PM
I don't understand some of your answer choices.

"I disagree completely, Humans came from apes"

Wouldn't humans coming from apes be agreeing with evolution?

Depends on what someone means by apes. Evolution does NOT say that humans came from chimpanzees, gorillas, or any other modern type of ape, which are also quite derived from the common ancestor. It does say we share a common ancestor with them which is not identical to anything living today.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: TheCoon on June 21, 2010, 04:47:00 PM
I can believe evolution exists in some shape or form and that is how we came to me. It makes sense that God would create and use a process that we can understand.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Christian Zionist on June 21, 2010, 04:49:18 PM
I believe the earth existed ages before but God created Adam, Eve, Gardern of Eden and other creatures in 6 literal days.

Behind every design there is a designer.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Chai on June 21, 2010, 05:12:31 PM
I DONT KNOW I WASNT THERE

However as religious Jew I believe G-d first created fish then he created  birds then mammals after that he took earth and made man.

What is established by G-d is indeed mammals came before humans and humans came after mammals

Also, humans came from the earth .. the Torah does not say if animals came from the earth as well , if it did we both come from the same material.
When it come to days king David said a day is like a thousand years ( we dont know what a day for G-d is only for us) ... do we want to question time? how does G-d measure time ? 
There are places in the universe with temporal anomalies what is a day then for G-d not us remember ..
 The shema is brought down from the talmud when it end being midnight .. G-d is beyond that.. When you look up at the heavens you are looking at billions of years?  Or did G-d make it that way? Maybe ..

It is something you will never know for sure.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 05:16:32 PM
The first mammals appear in the Triassic (if you include mammal-like reptiles, even earlier), and the first birds with feathers appeared later, during the Jurassic.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 21, 2010, 05:29:49 PM
I don't understand some of your answer choices.

"I disagree completely, Humans came from apes"

Wouldn't humans coming from apes be agreeing with evolution?

Depends on what someone means by apes. Evolution does NOT say that humans came from chimpanzees, gorillas, or any other modern type of ape, which are also quite derived from the common ancestor. It does say we share a common ancestor with them which is not identical to anything living today.

Well I know that, but what would Dr. Dan's answer choice mean?

Usually when people say "came from apes" they do not mean a real ape, they mean a common ancestor that was ape-like.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 21, 2010, 05:30:34 PM
Sorry my wording made no sense. Its been a long day
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 05:37:50 PM
Sorry KWRBT. There used to be  a lot of people who would ask me questions like "so if evolution is true why are chimpanzees not giving birth to humans".
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 21, 2010, 05:40:21 PM
Sorry KWRBT. There used to be  a lot of people who would ask me questions like "so if evolution is true why are chimpanzees not giving birth to humans".
    :::D

Then again, if obama's mom.... nevermind.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on June 21, 2010, 05:46:16 PM
A psuedo-scientific discipline of explanation of G-D's world, or as a famous professor from the Cambridge university put it - the chance that what happened in the process of evolution according to Darwin is true is the same as the chance a Tornado storm will pass a yard of junk and create a Boeing 747 passangers airplane model above it.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 07:37:08 PM
Scientific proof does exist that the Theory of Evolution, as it is accepted by academia today, is without substance and without proof.

What is this proof, you ask?

The Australian platypus.

Google the platypus --  read of its physical characteristics and habits, and you will then realize that scientists conveniently refuse to acknowledge all of the glaring facts which contradict their most 'sacred' tenets.

There are additional proofs which defy The Theory of Evolution, and these are to be found in the geological record of the Earth, where "species jump" is evident -- fossilized remains of new and previously unknown animal species suddenly appear in the fossil records without any possible explanation regarding from which other animal species they are supposed to have 'evolved'.

Scientists continue to claim that "Africa is the 'mother continent' from which all of mankind's races evolved, yet these very same scientists will then completely contradict themselves; stating that all the continents of the Earth were at one time merged into one giant land mass they call Gondwanaland!

They claim that all races are equal, emerged in Africa from apes, and then evolved from the African Negro race to become the lighter skinned races of men found in Europe, Asia, and North America.

In fact, the first white men to have ever visited "deepest, darkest Africa" [the Congo] in the 1800's, including American President Theodore Roosovelt, all claimed that the continent was still exactly as it was in the Pleistocene Era, and that the wheel had never yet been discovered or used by the native savages practicing witchcraft and cannibalism.

It doesn't take a genius to look around at the most affluent and privileged Negroes who have been living here in America for the better part of a millenium with every imaginable opportunity for education and self-betterment, in order to immediately realize that they are the most primitive and backwards of all the Earth's races.

Even the lowly urban city sewer rat is more organized, more intelligent, and more civilized than the African Negro.

The very idea that humanity and civilization evolved from Africa is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard repeated by supposedly "educated" men.

I am convinced that the reason all these "academics" spend their grant money studying monkeys and digging bones in Africa, is because it is there and nowhere else on Earth where the inhabitants are so incredulously stupid that they will allow these fools into their countries and even agree with their absurd claims!


"That is an idea so ridiculous that only an academic could believe it ! " -- George Orwell   
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
Massuh, I agree that not all races are equal in ability, but I don't think that's a claim of evolution but more a claim of cultural anthropologists who follow the Boas school of thought. Also how exactly does the platypus go against evolution? It's sort of a living fossil really, monotremes are a very old form of mammal, and still retain some reptilian characteristics such as a single cloaca and the ability to lay eggs.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 08:24:39 PM
Don't read about monotremes -- read about the platypus.

I don't believe that monotremes is any other than a newly devised "classification" --  a weak attempt by Darwinists to force fit species which won't "fit the rule" into some niche which previously never existed because of the fact that these creatures simply defy classification according to the Laws of Evolution.

The platypus has a duck's bill, webbed feet, a tail like a beaver, has legs attached to the sides of its body like a reptile.  It lays eggs, but feeds its young with milk like a mammal, has receptors on its head which can detect electromagnetic bio-waves released by other animals, and has venomous spines on its rear feet for stinging prey and predators.  It has no teeth, but grinds its food using rocks it picks up from the bottoms of streams.

In other words, it appears to be totally unique, and evolved from no other species into its present form.

According to the Evolutionists, everything can be traced back to the original one cell lurking in primordial muck, in a slow, steady, series of adaptations and evolutionary improvements.

The actual existence of a scientific classification called "monotremes" is a mere hypothetical construct -- unproven, and without any known links which could place the platypus and anteater in the Theory of Evolution.

In addition, rarely a week goes by without scientists announcing the "discovery' of entirely new species of animals in Borneo, South American rainforests, etc...

If this be the case, then their standardized progression of the origin of species is totally without merit, because none of these new species can be accounted for in terms of from which other animals they did evolve.

What these "scientists" are in fact doing is first declaring their unchallengeable Theory of Evolution, refusing to allow anyone to question it or challenge it.  And then, as the actual facts present themselves which can not be "fit" into the puzzle, they simply "change the rules" and invent new hitherto unknown classifications in order to make everything "fit" their protocol.

Bear in mind -- these are the same "Scientists" who proclaim loudly that "THERE WAS NO EXODUS!", -- "NO PROOF" OF ANY KIND THAT HEBREWS WERE SLAVES IN EGYPT -- NO PROOF THAT A PASSOVER EVER OCCURRED!  They further claim that MOSES IS A COMPLETE MYTHIC CONSTRUCT AND NEVER EXISTED! -- their "PROOF" being that "NO ARCHAELOGICAL EVIDENCE EXISTS TO PROVE THAT ISRAELITES EVER CROSSED THE RED SEA, WANDERED IN THE DESERT 40 YEARS, AND THEN CONQUERED THE LAND OF CANAAN!"

I ask them:  In order for anyone to believe you, please show us the animals from which the platypus evolved.

They can't.

There's a BOOK written by Jews which proves that a people existed with their own history, language, culture, and G-d.

THAT is another FACT which the "Scientists" denounce as "NO PROOF!"

That's a hell of a lot more proof than their simply one day declaring a new classification of species called a monotreme!

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 08:35:59 PM
The platypus has a duck's bill, webbed feet, a tail like a beaver, has legs attached to the sides of its body like a reptile.  It lays eggs, but feeds its young with milk like a mammal, has receptors on its head which can detect electromagnetic bio-waves released by other animals, and has venomous spines on its rear feet for stinging prey and predators.  It has no teeth, but grinds its food using rocks it picks up from the bottoms of streams.

In other words, it appears to be totally unique, and evolved from no other species into its present form.

It doesn't have a duck's bill, it has a leathery "bill" that only superficially resembles the bill of a bird. The comparison of its tail to a beaver's tail is also superficial only. Manatees also have flat tails for swimming, and so do whales. It just happens to be a good body plan for a swimmer. This lizard also has a flat tail: (http://www.ryanphotographic.com/images/JPEGS/Leaf-tailed%20gecko%20new.jpg)

It's similarity to reptiles is not coincidental. It retains many reptilian features such as its legs, its egg laying ability, its single cloaca, etc. because mammals evolved from reptilian ancestors that lived in the Permian and while most mammals have lost these features long ago, some still have them, such as platypuses and echidnas. It doesn't have nipples, but it does have a very rudimentary milk patch. It shows us some of what the transition from mammal-like reptiles to reptile-like mammals would have looked like.

As for the venom in male platypuses, venom is not uncommon in the natural world. Shrews also have a form of venom.

I'll answer the rest of your post in my next post.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 08:49:59 PM
Quote
In addition, rarely a week goes by without scientists announcing the "discovery' of entirely new species of animals in Borneo, South American rainforests, etc...

If this be the case, then their standardized progression of the origin of species is totally without merit, because none of these new species can be accounted for in terms of from which other animals they did evolve.

I think almost always they are easily related to other types of creatures, some closer than others. Islands do tend to speed up speciation though.

Quote
What these "scientists" are in fact doing is first declaring their unchallengeable Theory of Evolution, refusing to allow anyone to question it or challenge it.  And then, as the actual facts present themselves which can not be "fit" into the puzzle, they simply "change the rules" and invent new hitherto unknown classifications in order to make everything "fit" their protocol.

Sometimes family trees get revised when more information is found, but that doesn't mean the whole idea is wrong. What facts are there that don't fit?

Quote
Bear in mind -- these are the same "Scientists" who proclaim loudly that "THERE WAS NO EXODUS!", -- "NO PROOF" OF ANY KIND THAT HEBREWS WERE SLAVES IN EGYPT -- NO PROOF THAT A PASSOVER EVER OCCURRED!  They further claim that MOSES IS A COMPLETE MYTHIC CONSTRUCT AND NEVER EXISTED! -- their "PROOF" being that "NO ARCHAELOGICAL EVIDENCE EXISTS TO PROVE THAT ISRAELITES EVER CROSSED THE RED SEA, WANDERED IN THE DESERT 40 YEARS, AND THEN CONQUERED THE LAND OF CANAAN!"

Actually I think that evolutionary biology is a separate discipline from Egyptology/Archaeology. However I think that there is a lot more room for us to debate the archaeologists because they don't really have the evidence to disprove the Biblical stories.

Quote
I ask them:  In order for anyone to believe you, please show us the animals from which the platypus evolved.

They can't.


http://sciencenotes.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/monotreme_cladogram.jpg

"Fossils of other platypus ancestors have been found.  Three of them are Obduron Insignis, Obduron Dicksoni, and Obduron Species A, which were all discovered in Australian sediments.  These animals existed between 15 and 25 million years ago.  It is thought that all of them kept their teeth into adulthood, hence the name Obduron, which means enduring teeth.  These species are different to the present day platypus, because it does not have teeth, only a plate to grind its food.  The Obduron Insignis is the most recent of the three platypus relatives and it is though to have existed about 15 million years ago (Grant, 1989)."

http://www.platypus.org.uk/facts-history.htm

Quote
There's a BOOK written by Jews which proves that a people existed with their own history, language, culture, and G-d.

THAT is another FACT which the "Scientists" denounce as "NO PROOF!"

That's a hell of a lot more proof than their simply one day declaring a new classification of species called a monotreme!

The Bible is not a science book though. It's what you just described, a book which proves that a people existed with their own history, language, culture, and G-d.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 21, 2010, 10:08:40 PM
There are so many times in history where evolutionists have lied and mislead people and created "evidence" to support their theories.

http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html

This website provides links to many documentations of such frauds.  I am familiar with some of the more well known frauds, but I have not had time to really pour through each nook and cranny of the site.  The main site appears to be interesting as well, but it deals with things more on the theoretical side.

My problem with evolutionary theory lies in that theoretical science is entertaining, while observational science is more important although perhaps less satisfying because observations often raise questions which do not have answers [theories, like fiction, need to make sense to a person, actual observations do not need to make sense, so there is a temptation to corrupt science with fiction to rectify disturbing questions raised]...  apart from "evolution proof" shams like some of the above documents, one of the biggest misuses of theoretical science takes place in astrophysics... "dark matter", "black holes" [neither of which has actually been observed], etc...  and even "gravity" is an unchallengeable theory, but what we perceive to be the phenomenon of gravity it could be, perhaps better, explained by "plasma theory" or an "electronic universe theory" than "gravitational theory".  The problem with exposing theoretical science is that people lose jobs which they base their entire life upon so these people will fight for their life if someone with better insight to science comes along [this coupled with "tenure" at universities is a real roadblock to true science].

I'm not quite sure what to think about evolution as a whole, sans frauds...  I have seen some research done which is interesting to me.

From speaking with a friend of mine I shall quote him.  [He mentions, "Lucy", and "Ardi", and I am suspicious of these specific "finds"]  Some of what is here is interesting to me, but not enough to make me a believer one way or another.

Quote
I'll present a meager quantity of evidence that I have on hand from past discussion of the subject. I can't promise that I will convince you, but I can promise that the evidence points *very* strongly towards evolutionary theory.

The Lenski LTEE E. coli experiment showed that natural selecting acting on random mutation produces new information and novel function. Here is the original paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899

The experiments showing the development of coloniality in Chlorella vulgaris in response to predation shows how natural selection produces significant alterations, as well as giving a possible origin for multicellularity. The original paper:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q239365007h43465/

The nylon bacteria is very similar to the LTEE E. coli, except that the mutations have been subjected to further analysis. Here a completely novel function was created by gene duplication followed by random variation, including a frameshift mutation. A source:
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm

Endogenous retroviral DNA is left over from prior viral infection. In many species, the same infections are found at the same insertion sites in the genome. This is an extremely strong indicator that the species share a common ancestor that was infected by the virus. Moreover, the phylogenies constructed this way agree with other constructions, e.g. humans share the most insertion sites with chimps, somewhat less with other apes, somewhat less with other primates, and so on. Link:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h1151w643k336v15/

The fused chromosome 2 is the answer to a question long asked by evolutionary biologists--why is it that humans carry only 23 chromosome pairs, while their closest relatives (e.g. the chimps) all carry 24? The answer can be found in the human's Chromosome 2, which has all the appearances of two chromosomes fused together: two centromeres, chromosome cap DNA in the middle of the chromosome, and so on. Each part of Chromosome 2 corresponds to a chromosome in the ape genome, indicating that somewhere in our recent evolutionary past, a fusion event occurred. The original paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/88/20/9051.abstract

Similarly, the inability of humans and apes to synthesize vitamin C, a capability other mammals have, puzzled biologists for a while. But in our genome is the same gene that codes for a key protein in vitamin C synthesis in mammals--except bits of it have mutated and been broken. The fact that this broken gene is shared by humans and apes strongly indicates common ancestry. Link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9655531

Speciation in crickets...
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n1/full/6800690a.html
Plants...
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/317/5840/910
Flies...
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1000550
And various other organisms...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v331/n6156/abs/331485a0.html

all indicate that whatever barriers creationists would like to put up to evolution, they don't involve the species barrier.

Tangential point: Foxes and dogs can interbreed, and dogs and coyotes can interbreed, but foxes and coyotes cannot interbreed. Are these all one creationist 'kind'? What about other canines?

Genetic algorithms and evolutionary programming indicate that those creationist barriers don't include complex systems either. Natural selection acting on random mutation in simulation has been observed to produce complex systems, sometimes systems even engineers don't really understand. The most common creationist complaint about this work is that because it is computer science, human intelligence is involved. But the intelligence is used to set up the environment--in other words, to simulate nature. The processes by which evolution occur are mirrored without intelligent input. So the use of this work as evidence remains valid. Link:
http://www.cs.sandia.gov/opt/survey/ea.html

Detailed fossil trees, such as the horse evolution tree and the human evolution tree, indicate significant morphological change arising gradually, and common ancestry with related organisms. Hyracotherium can hardly be called a 'horse', just as Ardi and Lucy can hardly be called 'human', but the fossils linking Hyracotherium to the modern horse, and Ardi to modern humans, are unbreakable--though the exact nature of the connection is always subject to change via new fossil evidence. Links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html

The structure of the fossil record is quite astonishing. It's exactly what we wouldn't see if life was polyphyletic, or if Noah's Flood had churned up the geologic record. Words cannot describe, so I'll link you to a tree of life and you can work your way from there:
http://tolweb.org/tree/

Finally, the independent agreement of phylogenies constructed from different evidence from different disciplines speaks to the validity of the phylogenies. Phylogenies based on the physical characteristics of different organisms agree with phylogenies based on the fossil record, with phylogenies based on biogeography, with phylogenies based on genetic homologies. There is NO reason under a creation hypothesis why these trees should match, but they do. And the reason is common descent.

Here is a good explanation of how phylogenetics works:
http://evoled.dbs.umt.edu/lessons/printable/Pathways.pdf

I leave finding out how the different phylogenies agree as an exercise.

Something that jumps out at me, from Torah, G-d created man on both the 6th and 7th day.  I have heard some explanations which make sense, but G-d creating a man before Adam of a lower stature, such as Cromagnon or Neanderthal man, who is not a "real" man is an entertaining idea to explain this.  I know there are some pre-Adamite theories which go off of this 6th day/7th day creation, some of them are entertaining, others less logical.

One of the Rabbis I speak says this, "If there seems to be a conflict between Torah, and science, the issue is with our limited finite human understanding".
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: New Yorker on June 21, 2010, 10:13:24 PM


Evolution is verified by scientific evidence, including human evolution. The evidence is almost literally concrete.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 10:23:38 PM
Re:  "Fossils of other platypus ancestors have been found. "

Those weren't fossils!

Those were roadkill run over on the Australian backroads, squashed flat as a pancake, and then baked hard by the desert sun.

They were only 2 months old.

DNA analysis proved that they were 4 chickens and 3 French Poodles which had been hit by a jeep.

The "teeth" that they supposedly kept until adulthood were some bridges and other denture work that fell out of the mouth of the aborigine who "found" the fossils.

In actual fact, the aboboogie was arrested because he was attempting to eat the roadkill fresh off the road.

So you see, many find themselves confused when discussing facts!



Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 10:26:38 PM
Massuh your posts are so clever and always make me smile.  ;D
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: cjd on June 21, 2010, 10:33:47 PM
Re:  "Fossils of other platypus ancestors have been found. "

Those weren't fossils!

Those were roadkill run over on the Australian backroads, squashed flat as a pancake, and then baked hard by the desert sun.

They were only 2 months old.

DNA analysis proved that they were 4 chickens and 3 French Poodles which had been hit by a jeep.

The "teeth" that they supposedly kept until adulthood were some bridges and other denture work that fell out of the mouth of the aborigine who "found" the fossils.

In actual fact, the aboboogie was arrested because he was attempting to eat the roadkill fresh off the road.

So you see, many find themselves confused when discussing facts!




Your a killer Massuh....... :::D
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 10:35:49 PM
OK, Rubystars!

If the scientists have the answers, then tell me where schwartzes came from!

Colin Powell has it right, when he said "Whites in America have a real dilemma -- they believe that "all men are created equal", and at the same time are convinced that Blacks are an inferior race!".

How is it that a schwartze after 6000 years of evolution is today less intelligent than a monkey, deranged, and more violent than any other beast?

How do scientists "account" for the fact that the schwartze has no class, no breeding, no mating, no child rearing, and loves watermelon and KFC?

How does that fit into the "Great Scheme of Evolution?"
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: New Yorker on June 21, 2010, 10:38:46 PM
OK, Rubystars!

If the scientists have the answers, then tell me where schwartzes came from!

Colin Powell has it right, when he said "Whites in America have a real dilemma -- they believe that "all men are created equal", and at the same time are convinced that Blacks are an inferior race!".

How is it that a schwartze after 6000 years of evolution is today less intelligent than a monkey, deranged, and more violent than any other beast?

How do scientists "account" for the fact that the schwartze has no class, no breeding, no mating, no child rearing, and loves watermelon and KFC?

How does that fit into the "Great Scheme of Evolution?"

They're a less evolved form, without the evolutionary stresses of Europe they stayed static, unchanged for 200,000 years, same reason the can't tolerate the cold.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: cjd on June 21, 2010, 10:42:04 PM
OK, Rubystars!

If the scientists have the answers, then tell me where schwartzes came from!

Colin Powell has it right, when he said "Whites in America have a real dilemma -- they believe that "all men are created equal", and at the same time are convinced that Blacks are an inferior race!".

How is it that a schwartze after 6000 years of evolution is today less intelligent than a monkey, deranged, and more violent than any other beast?

How do scientists "account" for the fact that the schwartze has no class, no breeding, no mating, no child rearing, and loves watermelon and KFC?

How does that fit into the "Great Scheme of Evolution?"

They're a less evolved form, without the evolutionary stresses of Europe they stayed static, unchanged for 200,000 years.
It's even simpler then that... They are the missing link.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: muman613 on June 21, 2010, 10:44:05 PM
Maybe your ancestors were monkeys, but I am not descended from monkeys. I am a human who ultimately descended from Adam.

But you can postulate all you like about missing links, it will keep you busy.

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: cjd on June 21, 2010, 10:49:51 PM
Maybe your ancestors were monkeys, but I am not descended from monkeys. I am a human who ultimately descended from Adam.

But you can postulate all you like about missing links, it will keep you busy.


Well you have always said muman... more then human so you have made you position clear already  :::D..... Here in New York we have fine museums filled with all sort of fossils that really make a good case for evolution... Whatever the case I am sure it is all G-ds work.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
I disagree!

I think that space aliens dumped them off here to get rid of the garbage!

Their entire front temporal lobe is missing!

It's proven that when undergoing brain surgery, the doctors lift off a shvoog's skull to reveal a "blue gums" looking squirrel size brain without any convolutions on it!

It's full of purple and black pigment running all through it like discarded grape chewing gum.

Not only that!

Neuroscience reveals that unlike normal humans' brains which have a brain stem and spinal cord, the schwartze's chipmunk brain instead has a "hambone nerve" running down the back of his neck and directly connected to his penis for aiding in raping white women.

They also have this extra bone called "The Monkey's Paw of Lord Harambee" that they use to rip open Kool Cigarrette Packs from the bottom side, using their pinky fingernail, which is held erect and rigid by the Monkey's Paw Bone!

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: syyuge on June 21, 2010, 10:58:24 PM
Science, evolutions and scientific evolutions all were kindly and duly permitted by the G_d as a part and process of his grand design. So that they also should be scientifically studied, understood and appreciated by the mankind. The days of G_d are eons of mankind.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: cjd on June 21, 2010, 11:04:05 PM
I disagree!

I think that space aliens dumped them off here to get rid of the garbage!

Their entire front temporal lobe is missing!

It's proven that when undergoing brain surgery, the doctors lift off a shvoog's skull to reveal a "blue gums" looking squirrel size brain without any convolutions on it!

It's full of purple and black pigment running all through it like discarded grape chewing gum.

Not only that!

Neuroscience reveals that unlike normal humans' brains which have a brain stem and spinal cord, the schwartze's chipmunk brain instead has a "hambone nerve" running down the back of his neck and directly connected to his penis for aiding in raping white women.

They also have this extra bone called "The Monkey's Paw of Lord Harambee" that they use to rip open Kool Cigarrette Packs from the bottom side, using their pinky fingernail, which is held erect and rigid by the Monkey's Paw Bone!


I think you might be on to something here... :o

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 21, 2010, 11:09:36 PM
OK, Rubystars!

If the scientists have the answers, then tell me where schwartzes came from!


They emerged from the first toilet bowl, after squirming their way through the primordial poop. Their very next evolutionary step was to develop hands, so they could stick them out, palm up, and say "Gib me dat".

In all seriousness though, evolution is not a ladder, it is not trying to "improve" anything. God can guide evolution in one direction or another, but as a natural process, it just reacts to whatever the conditions are, blindly.

Brains are expensive, they require a lot of oxygen and nutrients, so the smaller brain someone has, the less expensive it is and the less resources they need. There are always trade-offs.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on June 21, 2010, 11:10:13 PM
To beat the West to be the one..
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: muman613 on June 21, 2010, 11:17:39 PM
To beat the West to be the one..

(http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2008/06/highlander.jpg)
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_%28film%29
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on June 21, 2010, 11:20:50 PM
Terror, terror, that's my strategy
terror, terror gains us respect and sympathy
To beat Islam to be the one
From the Euphrates to the Nyle
Yalla, yalla, ya - I use the Uzi and you are gone
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 21, 2010, 11:31:53 PM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewsevolution.html
Quote
Judaism and Evolution
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 21, 2010, 11:44:04 PM
Re:  "Their very next evolutionary step was to develop hands, so they could stick them out, palm up, and say "Gib me dat". "

 :::D    :::D    :::D    :::D



                    8)
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: briann on June 22, 2010, 12:41:09 AM
Boy Dr. Dan, you need to work on making your options a little less biased; especially the magic wand comment; that might come across as a bit offensive to some here.

I don't see why Evolution can't be compatible with creationism.  I don't agree with those who say its either one or the other, and thats that.

This can expand to so many other things in life.  most of what happens in history follows the laws of nature, physics, genetics, etc, but that does mean that there can't be divine intervention as well.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: IsraelForever on June 22, 2010, 12:55:05 AM
And over time, fish came out of the ocean and their fins became arms and hands and over more time they learned to play the piano like Horowitz.

PUH-LEEESE!

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 02:23:28 AM
I don't understand some of your answer choices.

"I disagree completely, Humans came from apes"

Wouldn't humans coming from apes be agreeing with evolution?
no,human and apes share the smae ancestors.but this ancestors weren't apes.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 02:26:01 AM
Massuh, I agree that not all races are equal in ability, but I don't think that's a claim of evolution but more a claim of cultural anthropologists who follow the Boas school of thought. Also how exactly does the platypus go against evolution? It's sort of a living fossil really, monotremes are a very old form of mammal, and still retain some reptilian characteristics such as a single cloaca and the ability to lay eggs.
evolution palyed a major part in theevolution of the races.blacks for example are still adapt for a life in the jungles or in the savvanas.that explains thei impusivness,agrresivness,and their supremacy in running and swimming.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 22, 2010, 03:34:58 AM
supremacy in running and swimming.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24411271/

You might want to rethink your stance.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 03:38:15 AM
supremacy in running and swimming.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24411271/

You might want to rethink your stance.
sorry oyou right.most of the negroe ''culture'' developed inland so evolution didn't gave them swimming supremacy.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 22, 2010, 05:01:50 AM
Guys guys you have ALL wrong!!!!

Humans are a result of a squirrel-monkey thing having butt sex with a fish-frog.

Oh wait, that's Obama. Kind of resembles a fish-frog-squirrel-monkey.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 06:34:09 AM
Don't read about monotremes -- read about the platypus.

I don't believe that monotremes is any other than a newly devised "classification" --  a weak attempt by Darwinists to force fit species which won't "fit the rule" into some niche which previously never existed because of the fact that these creatures simply defy classification according to the Laws of Evolution. 

What are you talking about?   Why is classification system without monotremes a gospel, but with it you have a problem?   The classification schema is simply a way to categorize the species that have been found.  Why can't there be an exceptional category with unique characteristics.  This does Not disprove the massive amounts of evidence supporting evolution.

Quote
The platypus has a duck's bill, webbed feet, a tail like a beaver, has legs attached to the sides of its body like a reptile.  It lays eggs, but feeds its young with milk like a mammal, has receptors on its head which can detect electromagnetic bio-waves released by other animals, and has venomous spines on its rear feet for stinging prey and predators.  It has no teeth, but grinds its food using rocks it picks up from the bottoms of streams.

  So what.

Quote
In other words, it appears to be totally unique, and evolved from no other species into its present form.

This is your own interpretation, but this is not correct nor do I have any reason to believe you've made the correct interpretation of this data.  Why did they not evolve from any other species?  Even with many current species that fit into the basic classifications ie mammals etc they have not catalogued every single developmental ancestor.  When species die out, you are not necessarily going to find their remnants unless you dig up every inch of the earth, but then where will we all live?   

Some species come and go, develop and die out, and we never hear from them again, and many of them we don't even have fossils or haven't yet uncovered them in the ground.   That takes nothing away from the concept of evolution.

But your premise doesn't make sense.   There is such a concept, even within the basic classification system, of convergent evolution, vestigial organs, divergent evolution, homologous structures etc.   I fail to see how you raise a challenge to the concept of evolution by saying an organism is unique.   In truth, they are all unique.   Thus they are classified into separate species.

Quote
The actual existence of a scientific classification called "monotremes" is a mere hypothetical construct -- unproven, and without any known links which could place the platypus and anteater in the Theory of Evolution. 

We have to know every single linkage and every single event that took place in order to know that evolution occurred?  That's ridiculous.  Why use the platypus?  Simply cite that they haven't found EXACT transitional species for every single evolutionary development, or say that they found some but there are others they didn't find, and you're making the same (very weak) point.    But this point is not a shock to scientists who already have abandoned the model of "Darwinian Evolution" for "Punctuated Equilibrium" which upon digging up many findings and much data to compare with Darwin's theories and speculations, have found to fit better with a concept of Punctuated Equilibrium than with "Darwinian" format.   Nobody ever made Darwin into a "God" of science because he postulated something.   His hypotheses were weighed against the facts uncovered by people doing the digging with the developed technology necessary for the work, and they determined that what would be an accepted hypothesis had to be altered in order to make more sense in light of what was actually found.   That is the process of science.  Nobody has to accept something as dogma without proof behind it.   If there is a better theory and more plausible way of explanation, the scientists adopt that.   That is the reason Punctuated Equilibrium was adopted.   In my opinion this makes even more reason to believe that God is ultimately behind the process of evolution.   The Darwinian model is more like an "Oven-timer" format whereby you "set it and forget it" and things gradually progress naturally to a given conclusion based on environment.   Punctuated equilibrium requires massive upheavels and dynamic catastrophic events which catapult the process between various stages of basic "plateau."  I can't force someone to see God's hand in that, but I don't see why it can't be accepted by someone who does believe in God.

1
Quote
In addition, rarely a week goes by without scientists announcing the "discovery' of entirely new species of animals in Borneo, South American rainforests, etc...

2
Quote
If this be the case, then their standardized progression of the origin of species is totally without merit, because none of these new species can be accounted for in terms of from which other animals they did evolve.   

I don't see how you concluded 2 from 1.  What do you mean they 'can't be accounted for?'

Quote
What these "scientists" are in fact doing is first declaring their unchallengeable Theory of Evolution, refusing to allow anyone to question it or challenge it.

Actually one can challenge it based on scientific evidence and solid empirical data.   What they don't allow, just like all scientific fields, is for one to challenge a theory based on belief, conjecture, unfounded hypotheses, concocted "svarot" (meaning logical conjecture) etc.   Data is what caused the Darwinian model to be rejected for something more accurate.   Data is what determines whether something is a real challenge or simply someone whistling into the wind.

Quote
And then, as the actual facts present themselves which can not be "fit" into the puzzle, they simply "change the rules" and invent new hitherto unknown classifications in order to make everything "fit" their protocol. 

Their "protocol" never said classification was limited only to what we "currently know" or "have currently found."  New pieces of information add detail and depth to the classification sytem and more knowledge about historical change.  New information does not undermine anything because the system itself was never built on the premise that there can be no outside information or no data that we have not yet determined or arrived at.

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 06:35:38 AM
Quote from: MassuhDGoodName
Bear in mind -- these are the same "Scientists" who proclaim loudly that "THERE WAS NO EXODUS!", -- "NO PROOF" OF ANY KIND THAT HEBREWS WERE SLAVES IN EGYPT --

Now you're conflating issues.  They're not the "same scientists."  It's not even the same discipline.   Archaeologists say what they say based on the data and interpretations within their own discipline.  Biologists, Chemists, Biochemists, etc etc say what they say based on data derived from experiments of demonstrably provable hypotheses in their own field.   With Archeaology as a discipline there is absolutely no comparison to the level of objectivity built into a discipline such as biology which operates on the scientific method.  Archaeology is highly subjective and requires far more "interpretation" of individual findings than anything in biology even remotely does.   Even the dating system of Archaeology in terms of ancient history is very speculative and even disputed.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 06:42:48 AM

Actually I think that evolutionary biology is a separate discipline from Egyptology/Archaeology. However I think that there is a lot more room for us to debate the archaeologists because they don't really have the evidence to disprove the Biblical stories.


Exactly.  Very good point, Rubystars.  I agree very strongly, and this is an important distinction people need to realize.

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: White Israelite on June 22, 2010, 06:47:22 AM
pretty much agree with how you defined in Dan.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 06:48:27 AM

My problem with evolutionary theory lies in that theoretical science is entertaining, while observational science is more important although perhaps less satisfying because observations often raise questions which do not have answers

I don't understand the distinction you are making.  Evolutionary theory is grounded in observations and data.  "observational science" is the only way evidence for evolution has been amassed that takes it out of the realm of conjecture or science fiction "idea" into the realm of a workable, plausible Theory that makes sense of known facts.

Quote
From speaking with a friend of mine I shall quote him.  [He mentions, "Lucy", and "Ardi", and I am suspicious of these specific "finds"]  Some of what is here is interesting to me, but not enough to make me a believer one way or another.

What is "suspicious" about Lucy?  This is a well-publicized finding that developed into major disputes within archaeology and ancient history.

Quote
The Lenski LTEE E. coli experiment showed that natural selecting acting on random mutation produces new information and novel function. Here is the original paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899  

There are countless biological studies which operate on the same premise and demonstrate it to be true.


Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:12:48 AM
Quote from: Ariel Shayn

Something that jumps out at me, from Torah, G-d created man on both the 6th and 7th day.  I have heard some explanations which make sense, but G-d creating a man before Adam of a lower stature, such as Cromagnon or Neanderthal man, who is not a "real" man is an entertaining idea to explain this.  I know there are some pre-Adamite theories which go off of this 6th day/7th day creation, some of them are entertaining, others less logical.

One of the Rabbis I speak says this, "If there seems to be a conflict between Torah, and science, the issue is with our limited finite human understanding".

Now we're talking.   Firstly, I'm not sure what you mean about 6th and 7th day, by all accounts on the 7th day G-d "rested" from creating, and so man was created on the 6th day.  G-d did not create anything on the 7th day and that is why we celebrate the Shabbath, and we see G-d as not only being "the Creator" but also existing as separate from the act of creation.  You might refer to two accounts of creation, chapter 1 and chapter 2, but man is created the 6th day in both.   But as Rav Soloveitchik explains, the 2 accounts describe different metaphysical aspects of man and the dichotomy of man's role in the world.  In one sense man is the centerpiece of creation, and the creation of man is the ultimate purpose of everything else, to serve and be subjugated by man who is bequeathed dominion over the world by G-d.  But on the other hand man is still subservient to G-d and merely one aspect of a variegated creation in which man has much in common with the disparate elements (including common origin - man "built from the dust of the earth" etc) such as the inorganic elements, the plant life, the animal life etc.  And so man's role is also defined by his cooperation/participation in the preservation of the whole as one mere part in the symphony of creation that is truly owned by God.    These two roles of man are described as a dichotomy in the respective chapters 1 and 2 and form man's challenge to integrate and balance, and in Rav Soloveitchik's works, constitute the existential struggle of man in the world.   We can elaborate on this more as I had a series of shiurim on this subject from my rabbi in yeshiva.  There are a lot of examples and proofs within the text behind this basic idea.  Actually I don't know if I can commit the time to do it, but I think it may be a good idea for me to put up a series of summaries in the Torah section from my notes on this class that may be of interest to the members here.

One clear notion we must accept which has a strong basis throughout the sources to the point of being plainly self-evident is that the "6 days of creation" are not literal and do not come to explain the scientific process of G-d's creation.   On the contrary, Chazal, the sages of blessed memory, are quite non-literal in their explanations and leave much room for allegorical interpretation of the "Maaseh Bereshith" the acts of creation section of the Torah since the acts of creation are beyond man's comprehension.   On this topic in particular there is much more room for interpretation, and we see in the rishonim, the early medieval commentators, that in fact they took much liberty in their explanations of the metaphysical and ethical conceptions contained in these chapters, to explain very deep concepts about G-d's creation, while notably not adopting a "literalist" approach, which may have become popularized much later not only due to the influence of the notions of other religions, but as reactionary response to the very superficial notion of conflict between "science and religion" in modern times as seen or assumed by most people.   Even if a reactionary formulation without much backing in the sources gains primacy and popularity due to circumstances of the day, that does not make it a true formulation.   

There is absolutely NO support within the Jewish sources for the idea that the world was created 6000 (ie 5770) years ago.  None.  The dating of 5770 years refers to the creation of man, NOT the universe, and the Torah's definition of man is not a scientific genetic classification or limited to a physical phenotype.  There certainly could have been creatures that resembled what is today known as "human" roaming around before the inbuing of Tzelem Elokim (The image of G-d) into the framework of man-like-animal ... this act constituting the creation of man.

There is much more to talk about here, and G-d willing we will discuss more.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:22:00 AM
How do scientists "account" for the fact that the schwartze ... loves watermelon and KFC?

How does that fit into the "Great Scheme of Evolution?"

A subset within a particular species having a preference for a certain type of food, a unique preference from the other subsets of the species, is actually a proof for evolution.    But not always will the disparate environmental pressures and adaptive radiation be to such a degree as to cause speciation.  Thus different types of homo sapiens are the same species even if unique particularities developed between populations within the species separated by geography, language, culture, etc.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:26:35 AM
Maybe your ancestors were monkeys, but I am not descended from monkeys. I am a human who ultimately descended from Adam.

But you can postulate all you like about missing links, it will keep you busy.



Why couldn't Adam have descended from "monkeys" or some other animal creature?

Based on the commentaries of the Seforno and Ramban on the Chumash, that is certainly a possibility and not a notion they would have been bothered by.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:29:07 AM
I disagree!

I think that space aliens dumped them off here to get rid of the garbage!

Their entire front temporal lobe is missing! 

Let's try to keep some degree of seriousness in this very important thread.

That their temporal lobe is missing is completely untrue.  I know you are joking and you think it's funny, but people who don't know any better might actually believe this to be true.

Quote
It's proven that when undergoing brain surgery, the doctors lift off a shvoog's skull to reveal a "blue gums" looking squirrel size brain without any convolutions on it! 

Give it a rest.

Quote
Neuroscience reveals that unlike normal humans' brains which have a brain stem and spinal cord, the schwartze's chipmunk brain instead has a "hambone nerve" running down the back of his neck and directly connected to his penis for aiding in raping white women. 

Is there a point to these types of comments?
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:30:18 AM
Science, evolutions and scientific evolutions all were kindly and duly permitted by the G_d as a part and process of his grand design. So that they also should be scientifically studied, understood and appreciated by the mankind. The days of G_d are eons of mankind.

Indeed a very wise comment.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:31:48 AM
I don't understand some of your answer choices.

"I disagree completely, Humans came from apes"

Wouldn't humans coming from apes be agreeing with evolution?
no,human and apes share the smae ancestors.but this ancestors weren't apes.

That's not what I was saying, I've already been through this with Rubystars.    "came from apes" means "came from ape-like creature" which is what most people mean when they say that.   Generally speaking it's true.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 07:32:42 AM
Massuh, I agree that not all races are equal in ability, but I don't think that's a claim of evolution but more a claim of cultural anthropologists who follow the Boas school of thought. Also how exactly does the platypus go against evolution? It's sort of a living fossil really, monotremes are a very old form of mammal, and still retain some reptilian characteristics such as a single cloaca and the ability to lay eggs.
evolution palyed a major part in theevolution of the races.blacks for example are still adapt for a life in the jungles or in the savvanas.that explains thei impusivness,agrresivness,and their supremacy in running and swimming.

Oh please, save us your eugenics theories.

Not all blacks are skilled at running.   This is limited to Kenyans and certain west africans.   You have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 07:43:02 AM
Massuh, I agree that not all races are equal in ability, but I don't think that's a claim of evolution but more a claim of cultural anthropologists who follow the Boas school of thought. Also how exactly does the platypus go against evolution? It's sort of a living fossil really, monotremes are a very old form of mammal, and still retain some reptilian characteristics such as a single cloaca and the ability to lay eggs.
evolution palyed a major part in theevolution of the races.blacks for example are still adapt for a life in the jungles or in the savvanas.that explains thei impusivness,agrresivness,and their supremacy in running and swimming.

Oh please, save us your eugenics theories.

Not all blacks are skilled at running.   This is limited to Kenyans and certain west africans.   You have no idea what you're talking about.
you know.there is a reason why the negroes are the garabage of humanity.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 22, 2010, 08:24:54 AM

Quote
From speaking with a friend of mine I shall quote him.  [He mentions, "Lucy", and "Ardi", and I am suspicious of these specific "finds"]  Some of what is here is interesting to me, but not enough to make me a believer one way or another.

What is "suspicious" about Lucy?  This is a well-publicized finding that developed into major disputes within archaeology and ancient history.

I seem to remember that Lucy's hips needed to be smashed, broken apart, cut, chiseled, sanded, buffed, and totally reconstructed unlike they were found in order to be assembled in a way for her to walk like modern humans do, as opposed to how chimps and apes do [which is how her hip was actually found].  I think I watched this on PBS by a man named Dr. Lovejoy.  If I remember correctly, also this skeleton only had 1/2 a hip to begin with, so mashing up the one half hip which was actually found into pieces and then putting it back together in a different way to suit the desires of the theorist really left me taken back, and puzzled why people would see value in what this man postulated; could not any skeleton be smashed apart and reworked into "the missing link"?
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 22, 2010, 08:25:05 AM
Re:  "New information does not undermine anything because the system itself was never built on the premise that there can be no outside information or no data that we have not yet determined or arrived at. "

One should never end a sentence with a preposition -- especially a compound sentence with four different subjects, and five separate "double negative" verb structures.

Improper syntax and grammar notwithstanding, such an impassioned defense of Evolutionary Theory is but a verbatim repetition of all the eloquent oratory with which the contemporary candidate for a degree is expected to  "regurgitate on demand" as a prerequisite to proving one's "worthiness" for advancement in such dubious fields of academia as "Middle Eastern Studies", "Womens' Studies", "Gender Studies", "Black Studies", "Latino Studies", "Peace Studies", "Conflict Resolution", "International Affairs", "Gay/Bi-Sexual/Lesbian/and Trans-Gendered Studies", etc... .

I take no personal issue with those choosing to march in lockstep agreement with scientists whose dogma teaches that Israelites evolved from Negroes in the African Motherland.

I fully realize that to earn a grade point level of "B" grade or above demands joining in consensus with other university faculty who find  Torah to be the stuff of primitive superstition and ridicule.

Admission to both Graduate Study and Post-Graduate Study is routinely denied to anyone daring to express even minimal skepticism in Evolutionary Theory, and Ph.D.'s who eagerly compete for "research grants" understand well that the money to support one's family and self are offered with the caveat that objectivity and morality all take a back seat to academic subservience in support of the Globalist Agenda, Big Pharma, and proponents of Obamacare.

For centuries, the credo "Publish, or perish!" was long the guideline for life in the Academy.

Sadly, this guideline has been today replaced with "Publish that which supports the corporatist/fascist status quo and its obscene obsession with profits, and be willing to alter data and misuse statistics in support of that end, or The Department Chair will gladly outsource the grant money provided to the university by private corporatist industry and the military to your "peers" in India and Communist China, who "know what is expected from them" and will do it for far less money.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 22, 2010, 08:26:21 AM
Quote from: Ariel Shayn

Something that jumps out at me, from Torah, G-d created man on both the 6th and 7th day.  I have heard some explanations which make sense, but G-d creating a man before Adam of a lower stature, such as Cromagnon or Neanderthal man, who is not a "real" man is an entertaining idea to explain this.  I know there are some pre-Adamite theories which go off of this 6th day/7th day creation, some of them are entertaining, others less logical.

One of the Rabbis I speak says this, "If there seems to be a conflict between Torah, and science, the issue is with our limited finite human understanding".

Now we're talking.   Firstly, I'm not sure what you mean about 6th and 7th day, by all accounts on the 7th day G-d "rested" from creating, and so man was created on the 6th day.  G-d did not create anything on the 7th day and that is why we celebrate the Shabbath, and we see G-d as not only being "the Creator" but also existing as separate from the act of creation.  You might refer to two accounts of creation, chapter 1 and chapter 2, but man is created the 6th day in both.   But as Rav Soloveitchik explains, the 2 accounts describe different metaphysical aspects of man and the dichotomy of man's role in the world.  In one sense man is the centerpiece of creation, and the creation of man is the ultimate purpose of everything else, to serve and be subjugated by man who is bequeathed dominion over the world by G-d.  But on the other hand man is still subservient to G-d and merely one aspect of a variegated creation in which man has much in common with the disparate elements (including common origin - man "built from the dust of the earth" etc) such as the inorganic elements, the plant life, the animal life etc.  And so man's role is also defined by his cooperation/participation in the preservation of the whole as one mere part in the symphony of creation that is truly owned by G-d.    These two roles of man are described as a dichotomy in the respective chapters 1 and 2 and form man's challenge to integrate and balance, and in Rav Soloveitchik's works, constitute the existential struggle of man in the world.   We can elaborate on this more as I had a series of shiurim on this subject from my rabbi in yeshiva.  There are a lot of examples and proofs within the text behind this basic idea.  Actually I don't know if I can commit the time to do it, but I think it may be a good idea for me to put up a series of summaries in the Torah section from my notes on this class that may be of interest to the members here.

One clear notion we must accept which has a strong basis throughout the sources to the point of being plainly self-evident is that the "6 days of creation" are not literal and do not come to explain the scientific process of G-d's creation.   On the contrary, Chazal, the sages of blessed memory, are quite non-literal in their explanations and leave much room for allegorical interpretation of the "Maaseh Bereshith" the acts of creation section of the Torah since the acts of creation are beyond man's comprehension.   On this topic in particular there is much more room for interpretation, and we see in the rishonim, the early medieval commentators, that in fact they took much liberty in their explanations of the metaphysical and ethical conceptions contained in these chapters, to explain very deep concepts about G-d's creation, while notably not adopting a "literalist" approach, which may have become popularized much later not only due to the influence of the notions of other religions, but as reactionary response to the very superficial notion of conflict between "science and religion" in modern times as seen or assumed by most people.   Even if a reactionary formulation without much backing in the sources gains primacy and popularity due to circumstances of the day, that does not make it a true formulation.   

There is absolutely NO support within the Jewish sources for the idea that the world was created 6000 (ie 5770) years ago.  None.  The dating of 5770 years refers to the creation of man, NOT the universe, and the Torah's definition of man is not a scientific genetic classification or limited to a physical phenotype.  There certainly could have been creatures that resembled what is today known as "human" roaming around before the inbuing of Tzelem Elokim (The image of G-d) into the framework of man-like-animal ... this act constituting the creation of man.

There is much more to talk about here, and G-d willing we will discuss more.


 :::D :::D :::D :::D
Of course God took Shabbat off.  You are right, I meant chapters one and two.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 22, 2010, 08:47:17 AM
Quote from: Ariel Shayn

Something that jumps out at me, from Torah, G-d created man on both the 6th and 7th day.  I have heard some explanations which make sense, but G-d creating a man before Adam of a lower stature, such as Cromagnon or Neanderthal man, who is not a "real" man is an entertaining idea to explain this.  I know there are some pre-Adamite theories which go off of this 6th day/7th day creation, some of them are entertaining, others less logical.

One of the Rabbis I speak says this, "If there seems to be a conflict between Torah, and science, the issue is with our limited finite human understanding".

Now we're talking.   Firstly, I'm not sure what you mean about 6th and 7th day, by all accounts on the 7th day G-d "rested" from creating, and so man was created on the 6th day.  G-d did not create anything on the 7th day and that is why we celebrate the Shabbath, and we see G-d as not only being "the Creator" but also existing as separate from the act of creation.  You might refer to two accounts of creation, chapter 1 and chapter 2, but man is created the 6th day in both.   But as Rav Soloveitchik explains, the 2 accounts describe different metaphysical aspects of man and the dichotomy of man's role in the world.  In one sense man is the centerpiece of creation, and the creation of man is the ultimate purpose of everything else, to serve and be subjugated by man who is bequeathed dominion over the world by G-d.  But on the other hand man is still subservient to G-d and merely one aspect of a variegated creation in which man has much in common with the disparate elements (including common origin - man "built from the dust of the earth" etc) such as the inorganic elements, the plant life, the animal life etc.  And so man's role is also defined by his cooperation/participation in the preservation of the whole as one mere part in the symphony of creation that is truly owned by G-d.    These two roles of man are described as a dichotomy in the respective chapters 1 and 2 and form man's challenge to integrate and balance, and in Rav Soloveitchik's works, constitute the existential struggle of man in the world.   We can elaborate on this more as I had a series of shiurim on this subject from my rabbi in yeshiva.  There are a lot of examples and proofs within the text behind this basic idea.  Actually I don't know if I can commit the time to do it, but I think it may be a good idea for me to put up a series of summaries in the Torah section from my notes on this class that may be of interest to the members here.

One clear notion we must accept which has a strong basis throughout the sources to the point of being plainly self-evident is that the "6 days of creation" are not literal and do not come to explain the scientific process of G-d's creation.   On the contrary, Chazal, the sages of blessed memory, are quite non-literal in their explanations and leave much room for allegorical interpretation of the "Maaseh Bereshith" the acts of creation section of the Torah since the acts of creation are beyond man's comprehension.   On this topic in particular there is much more room for interpretation, and we see in the rishonim, the early medieval commentators, that in fact they took much liberty in their explanations of the metaphysical and ethical conceptions contained in these chapters, to explain very deep concepts about G-d's creation, while notably not adopting a "literalist" approach, which may have become popularized much later not only due to the influence of the notions of other religions, but as reactionary response to the very superficial notion of conflict between "science and religion" in modern times as seen or assumed by most people.   Even if a reactionary formulation without much backing in the sources gains primacy and popularity due to circumstances of the day, that does not make it a true formulation.   

There is absolutely NO support within the Jewish sources for the idea that the world was created 6000 (ie 5770) years ago.  None.  The dating of 5770 years refers to the creation of man, NOT the universe, and the Torah's definition of man is not a scientific genetic classification or limited to a physical phenotype.  There certainly could have been creatures that resembled what is today known as "human" roaming around before the inbuing of Tzelem Elokim (The image of G-d) into the framework of man-like-animal ... this act constituting the creation of man.

There is much more to talk about here, and G-d willing we will discuss more.


 :::D :::D :::D :::D
Of course G-d took Shabbat off.  You are right, I meant chapters one and two.

While researching if there were people before Adam today I came across this information [more than once, but this exert sums it up quickly and cites the appropriate Talmud I kept seeing];

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=605

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Were there people before Adam?

The Talmud (Chagigah 14a; Avos de-Rabbi Noson 31:3) speaks about "974 generations" before the world was created, but it explains that the people who would have lived in those "generations" were in fact not physically created, or were quickly destroyed. The 974 generations are based on Psalms 105:8, which can be interpreted as meaning that the Torah was given after 1000 generations; since Moses was the 26th generation after Adam, there must have been 974 generations before Adam.

I do not study Talmud so I am at a disadvantage to process or verify this information.  But it does peak my interest.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 22, 2010, 08:58:16 AM
Ariel Shayn, I saw Lucy's skeleton myself in person and nothing seemed suspicious about it. Also, there has been more than one australopithecine found, and the Laetoli footprints also indicate upright walking by Lucy's species.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 10:15:56 AM
Re:  "New information does not undermine anything because the system itself was never built on the premise that there can be no outside information or no data that we have not yet determined or arrived at. "

One should never end a sentence with a preposition -- especially a compound sentence with four different subjects, and five separate "double negative" verb structures.   

Wow my grammar wasn't perfect there, want a cookie?

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Improper syntax and grammar notwithstanding, such an impassioned defense of Evolutionary Theory is but a verbatim repetition of all the eloquent oratory with which the contemporary candidate for a degree is expected to  "regurgitate on demand" as a prerequisite to proving one's "worthiness" for advancement in such dubious fields of academia as "Middle Eastern Studies", "Womens' Studies", "Gender Studies", "Black Studies", "Latino Studies", "Peace Studies", "Conflict Resolution", "International Affairs", "Gay/Bi-Sexual/Lesbian/and Trans-Gendered Studies", etc... .


Preposterous.   You are relating unrelated disciplines.   I was never asked to "regurgitate" anything like this because no clown ever walked into a college class rejecting the science being taught.  All of modern life assumes and depends upon these scientific notions.   That is how the medical field operates, that is how technological advances operate, that is even how you live your daily life whether you want to admit the science is true or not.   And I have a degree in science yet never had to explain to someone why evolution is "true."   I also never had to explain to a person why Newtonian physics is "true" or why 2 plus 2 equals 4 is true.

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I take no personal issue with those choosing to march in lockstep agreement with scientists whose dogma teaches that Israelites evolved from Negroes in the African Motherland. 

Does it matter if we came from "negroes" or from an "ape" or from a common ancestry of modern day humans and apes?   NO.   What matters is that at some point in history G-d gave man a tzelem elokim, the image of G-d, and that is where we stand today - that principle is unassailable.  And a scientist (yes, they have opinions outside of proven fact as well) cannot disprove it.  What also matters is that originally G-d created the world from nothing.  This also cannot be disproven, whether many people disbelieve it or many people believe it.   That there have been scientific processes and physical development since the initial creation takes nothing away from that.

BTW, "negroes" also have tzelem Elokim according to Judaism.  Does that bother you?

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I fully realize that to earn a grade point level of "B" grade or above demands joining in consensus with other university faculty who find  Torah to be the stuff of primitive superstition and ridicule.

Once again you are conflating the issues.  I never once had to ridicule Torah or call it superstition in college nor was I asked to do anything like that.   In fact, I first learned about real Judaism while in college and that is where I started to be a practicing, observant Jew.   To get a good grade, a student needs to understand the material taught in class and be able to apply it and answer questions about it and solve problems with the concepts being taught.  Science teachers do not teach Torah.   They do not teach religion.  They do not teach ethics.  They simply teach the science and what facts have been uncovered by the scientific method in that particular subject.   One of my biology teachers in college was a Catholic priest!  Needless to say he did not attack religion, nor did he disbelieve it himself.

Btw, he also applauded and respected my decision to skip class to attend Yom Kippur services.

I am no longer receiving grades from anyone currently, and I have no reason to "accept" the truth of evolution except for the objective facts and overwhelming evidence that support it, which leave me no choice.   To deny the truth would be a desecration of the Torah and would certainly be sacrificing my intellect which in my opinion is a type of idol worship.   To what, I'm not sure, but it would be sacrificing it.   I'm not sure why you are so convinced that your own dogmas are the only way.

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Admission to both Graduate Study and Post-Graduate Study is routinely denied to anyone daring to express even minimal skepticism in Evolutionary Theory, and Ph.D.'s who eagerly compete for "research grants" understand well that the money to support one's family and self are offered with the caveat that objectivity and morality all take a back seat to academic subservience in support of the Globalist Agenda, Big Pharma, and proponents of Obamacare. 

Nonsense.

Quote
For centuries, the credo "Publish, or perish!" was long the guideline for life in the Academy.

Sadly, this guideline has been today replaced with "Publish that which supports the corporatist/fascist status quo and its obscene obsession with profits, and be willing to alter data and misuse statistics in support of that end, or The Department Chair will gladly outsource the grant money provided to the university by private corporatist industry and the military to your "peers" in India and Communist China, who "know what is expected from them" and will do it for far less money.

Now that you've slandered all scientists as the evil boogeyman, you should know that some people do have principles, and some people do not sell their souls for profit and prestige.  I have met such people in my own scientific work.  And I certainly hold myself as a religious Jew to a higher standard of morality.   Never in my career in science has anyone tried to deny me my personal ethical convictions.    So you obviously speak from an outsider's perspective and from complete ignorance.   That's a shame.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 10:18:06 AM
Admission to both Graduate Study and Post-Graduate Study is routinely denied to anyone daring to express even minimal skepticism in Evolutionary Theory, and Ph.D.'s who eagerly compete for "research grants" understand well that the money to support one's family and self are offered with the caveat that objectivity and morality all take a back seat to academic subservience in support of the Globalist Agenda, Big Pharma, and proponents of Obamacare.

For centuries, the credo "Publish, or perish!" was long the guideline for life in the Academy.

Sadly, this guideline has been today replaced with "Publish that which supports the corporatist/fascist status quo and its obscene obsession with profits, and be willing to alter data and misuse statistics in support of that end, or The Department Chair will gladly outsource the grant money provided to the university by private corporatist industry and the military to your "peers" in India and Communist China, who "know what is expected from them" and will do it for far less money.

Honestly, are you really accusing me of all this?  That is lower than low.   Do not turn this discussion personal because you can't answer the questions.

If you have any other reason (ie you're not actually accusing me personally of these things), then these statements are completely irrelevant because I am here defending evolution on its merits, not on the fact that 'a department chair' said so or any of these other unrelated things.

First you tried (unsuccessfully) to dispute evolution based on certain scientific data that were uncovered.  Now that that failed, you resort to questioning the validity of all scientific data as if it all cannot be trusted.    Funny how when it was convenient to your position, you accepted the validity of scientific data, such as the platypus and its anatomy, but now suddenly you don't and it's all just one big moneymaking conspiracy.   
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 22, 2010, 10:44:31 AM
There's a good reason why admission to upper level studies might be denied to self-professed creationists. It's because if you believe in a young earth, where species appeared at the same time (within the span of a week), then it means you didn't understand the material in the lower level studies. This is not some kind of exclusionist thing, but a scientist is supposed to look at the evidence, not at how the evidence makes them feel.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 10:46:28 AM

Quote
From speaking with a friend of mine I shall quote him.  [He mentions, "Lucy", and "Ardi", and I am suspicious of these specific "finds"]  Some of what is here is interesting to me, but not enough to make me a believer one way or another.

What is "suspicious" about Lucy?  This is a well-publicized finding that developed into major disputes within archaeology and ancient history.

I seem to remember that Lucy's hips needed to be smashed, broken apart, cut, chiseled, sanded, buffed, and totally reconstructed unlike they were found in order to be assembled in a way for her to walk like modern humans do, as opposed to how chimps and apes do [which is how her hip was actually found].  I think I watched this on PBS by a man named Dr. Lovejoy.  If I remember correctly, also this skeleton only had 1/2 a hip to begin with, so mashing up the one half hip which was actually found into pieces and then putting it back together in a different way to suit the desires of the theorist really left me taken back, and puzzled why people would see value in what this man postulated; could not any skeleton be smashed apart and reworked into "the missing link"?

Perhaps this is a major part of the reason why the interpretation of this finding is in dispute among the archaeologists.  I don't remember the details of the case that were argued, but what you're saying would fit with that.   I think it's not readily accepted that Lucy is the "missing link."
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 10:47:54 AM
There's a good reason why admission to upper level studies might be denied to self-professed creationists. It's because if you believe in a young earth, where species appeared at the same time (within the span of a week), then it means you didn't understand the material in the lower level studies. This is not some kind of exclusionist thing, but a scientist is supposed to look at the evidence, not at how the evidence makes them feel.

That would make sense.

Then again, they usually go by grades and other factors and don't do a survey of personal opinions before admitting you.   But what you say is definitely true.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: muman613 on June 22, 2010, 10:52:08 AM
I do not believe that these theories can be proven. I have seen several of these theories proven false over time. Putting all your faith in man and his understanding of science is a foolish thing to do. I have all the respect for scientists, if they truly are seeking the truth. But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge. You may think 'mad scientists' are rare but I think that many, many scientists have a 'mad scientist' deep inside... Science is a tool like a hammer or a microscope, allowing us to accomplish a goal. If we intend to use science to become like G-d himself, then we too are guilty of the same sin that Adam and Chava made when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 22, 2010, 11:20:09 AM
I do not believe that these theories can be proven. I have seen several of these theories proven false over time. 

Perhaps whatever theories you refer to did not have anywhere near the mountains of evidence that evolution has supporting it.   The idea that evolution will somehow be "rejected" is almost nonsensical at this point.

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Putting all your faith in man and his understanding of science is a foolish thing to do. 

No one here is doing that or recommending that.

Quote
I have all the respect for scientists, if they truly are seeking the truth. But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge. You may think 'mad scientists' are rare but I think that many, many scientists have a 'mad scientist' deep inside...

Rambam says it's a mitzvah to do science.  So if you suggest "mad scientist" is an aspect of the evil inclination/yetzer hara, then that is equally applicable in all fields.  Obviously no one is recommending to succomb to the evil inclination and commit evil deeds.   And science itself gives no license for that.  (nor does any other field).

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Science is a tool like a hammer or a microscope, allowing us to accomplish a goal. If we intend to use science to become like G-d himself, then we too are guilty of the same sin that Adam and Chava made when they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

But that's not the goal of science, and Rambam explains that to do science is a mitzvah because it brings one to appreciate G-d's oneness and to greater love of G-d.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 22, 2010, 11:20:20 AM
I was trying to give the two extremes:  Magic wand or humans directly from apes...or something in between...


Boy Dr. Dan, you need to work on making your options a little less biased; especially the magic wand comment; that might come across as a bit offensive to some here.

I don't see why Evolution can't be compatible with creationism.  I don't agree with those who say its either one or the other, and thats that.

This can expand to so many other things in life.  most of what happens in history follows the laws of nature, physics, genetics, etc, but that does mean that there can't be divine intervention as well.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 11:42:12 AM
But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge.


sorry about this but wtf? i don't want to control the worl with my knowledge.i want to improve the world with my knowledge.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 22, 2010, 11:46:35 AM
The reality about evolution or how humans and other animals and plants came to be is that no one will ever really actually know unless they go through time to witness it.  

And as far as the way the Torah describes the way the Universe was created, most Rabbis will agree that a lot of it is symbolic.

The bottom line is that Hashem created the Universe and however He did it, He did it perfectly.


As far as science goes...if it is done right and ethically and thoughtfully and truthfully, science might make a way of describing a part of HOW Gd does or did things.  Of course, we puny human beings will only be able to understand bare an aspect of that science since Gd is so infinity.  

The theory of evolution is just  theory..it doesn't make it truth.  As time goes on, more answers will be found.

I do believe that all living things started out as a single cell and that over time branched out from a common ancestor into different things.  And how did this happen over these millions of years?  Well, KWRBT mentioned something called "punctuated equillibrium" which, for now, makes the most sense.  Of course it's not the only answer but can be part of an answer.  Who knows, maybe it's something else.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Rubystars on June 22, 2010, 11:53:22 AM
The reality about evolution or how humans and other animals and plants came to be is that no one will ever really actually know unless they go through time to witness it.  

That's like saying if you find a dead body with a butcher knife sticking out of it that you can't really tell if it was stabbed unless you go back in time.

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The bottom line is that Hashem created the Universe and however He did it, He did it perfectly.

Ok true.

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The theory of evolution is just  theory..it doesn't make it truth.  As time goes on, more answers will be found.

The other answers will add to our understanding of evolution, but it will not replace it.

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I do believe that all living things started out as a single cell and that over time branched out from a common ancestor into different things.  

You don't have to believe it, you have evidence that only needs acceptance, not belief.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 22, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
Well, we know that butcher knives just don't fall from the sky...so there...


The reality about evolution or how humans and other animals and plants came to be is that no one will ever really actually know unless they go through time to witness it.  

That's like saying if you find a dead body with a butcher knife sticking out of it that you can't really tell if it was stabbed unless you go back in time.

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The bottom line is that Hashem created the Universe and however He did it, He did it perfectly.

Ok true.

Quote
The theory of evolution is just  theory..it doesn't make it truth.  As time goes on, more answers will be found.

The other answers will add to our understanding of evolution, but it will not replace it.

Quote
I do believe that all living things started out as a single cell and that over time branched out from a common ancestor into different things.  

You don't have to believe it, you have evidence that only needs acceptance, not belief.

Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 22, 2010, 12:53:30 PM
But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge.


sorry about this but wtf? i don't want to control the worl with my knowledge.i want to improve the world with my knowledge.

dnmt litmit yourslf.  thnk scientifical.. or the ballcks wil gaeight you.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Ben m on June 22, 2010, 12:56:07 PM
But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge.


sorry about this but wtf? i don't want to control the worl with my knowledge.i want to improve the world with my knowledge.

dnmt litmit yourslf.  thnk scientifical.. or the ballcks wil gaeight you.
i know i don't have the most wonderful spelling in the world.but why he included me in that post in the group of the ones who want to control the world.i want to improve the world not to control it.
Title: Re: What is your opinion on evolution?
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 23, 2010, 05:16:36 AM
But many, ben m included, wants to be able to control the world with their knowledge.


sorry about this but wtf? i don't want to control the worl with my knowledge.i want to improve the world with my knowledge.

That would first require actually having knowledge.

Sorry, couldn't resist.