"If you are still troubled by the theory of evolution, I can tell you without fear of contradiction that it has not a shred of evidence to support it."
(Lubavitcher Rebbe).
"Looking at this theory of Darwinian evolution as an attempt at a scientific formulation, it is very unconvincing, to say the least. Despite the beautiful and convincing descriptions in popular science books and high school texts, with their persuasive pictures, not only is the theory of evolution totally unproven, it is practically disproven." (Professor Leo Levi)
Let's talk facts on the ground.
Give me your 10 top evidences for the truth of Evolution.
If R.Hirsch knew then what we know today about the theory of Evolution, he would have utterly rejected it & become an instant YEC.
I have already given 18 scientific evidences against evolution.
You have given not one.
This is more than a pretty poor show. Could it be that you have....none?!
The thing I can't figure out, is how come it doesn't say in the Bible "And G-d created Hell" on one of those six days?"
This is all some seriously severe stuff, muman613.
Do you think there's anyone on the forum besides me who will not have to go to that place?
And is there anything I might can do then to relieve everyone's terrible suffering? :throw:
Re: "Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell ... Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b "
This is because of the toilet paper shortage there.
You have to wait till the diarrhea is over before the Devil will let you in! ;D
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/16.htm
The core of one of the explanations offered with regard to this matter is as follows: As stated in many discourses,[12] Gan Eden is granted as a reward for Torah study, while the Resurrection of the Dead comes as a reward for the observance of mitzvos. This explains why Gan Eden is a world of (incorporate) souls, while in the Era of Resurrection, the souls will be enclothed in bodies. For Torah study relates primarily to the soul, while the observance of mitzvos relates primarily to the body.[13]
All Jews observe mitzvos; indeed, "Even the sinners of Israel are as full of mitzvos as a pomegranate [is full of] seeds."[14] Therefore "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come."
It is possible to explain that this is also the intent of the Mishnah's citation of the prooftext,[15] "And your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever...." By quoting this verse, the Mishnah not only testifies that all Jews have a share in the World to Come, but also explains why this is so.
A person who observes mitzvos is referred to as "righteous", a tzaddik. {Since all the mitzvos are referred to as tzedakah[16] - "righteousness", those who perform mitzvos are termed tzaddikim - "righteous individuals"}.[17] Since "your people are all righteous," all Jews (even the sinners among them) observe mitzvos. Moreover, they are "filled with mitzvos"; i.e., the mitzvos they observe fill their entire existence and being. Therefore "they shall inherit the land forever" - the "Land of Life,"[18] which refers to life in the World to Come.
The above explanation, however, does not account for the Mishnah's mention of the conclusion of the verse, "they are the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, in which I take pride." [This phrase highlights] the essential virtue possessed by [all] Jews, that they are "the branch of My planting, the work of My hands" - (possessing this virtue independent of their observance of mitzvos).
[By quoting this phrase as part of the prooftext for the concept,] "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come," the Mishnah indicates that the share all Jews possess in the World to Come is (also) a result of their inherent virtue.
Very few Orthodox rabbis today believe in Evolution.
Most Orthodox Jewish PhD scientists are strongly contra Evolution. Read their articles http://www.borhatorah.org/
60% of the US populace disavows the theory of Evolution.
Among them are 1000s of top PhD scientists http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
They can present you with a solid scientific case for a young universe, and a watertight case to demolish evolution.
Evolution has been responsible for Huxley, Freudian psychology, moral relativity, atheistic existentialism, materialistic hedonism, despair, Nietzsche, Marxism, Nazism and modern racism.
Charles Darwin has been in the Tropics of the Afterlife for 130 years
If Jewish evolutionists like Asimov
and Sagan
could be let out of Gehennom for one instant, they'd tell you a story
Do you want to throw in your lot with evil evilutionists who are also destined for Gehennom like
Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.I'm with you.... I can't believe some of the reasons given for ignoring evolution... I feel like I am watching a poor reenactment of the Scopes Monkey Trials. :::D
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
muman613: "I am afraid that what has been discussed has already turned people away from believing in Hashem. "
Precisely the opposite is true.
Everyone here believes.
Unless people are able to question their own beliefs, how can they possibly really be faithful?
It's easy for tiny isolated little "ghettos" of Lubavitchers in NY and in Jerusalem and their fellow Orthodox to raise their children knowing one thing and one thing only, being told from birth "Do not dare to ever question what we believe!".
Otherwise known as brainwashing.
If you're unable to access any other information, then you're not confronted with opposing viewpoints and facts which might challenge that which you accepted on face value.
It is my firm belief that the opinions of the Sages are based on their thorough analysis and examination of Torah to the extent that their experiences and educations allowed them to do within the limitations placed on them by the available body of knowledge known at the time in which they lived.
They lacked a great deal of knowledge about the world and everything in it which we today take for granted.
Does that negate the truths of their studies?
No.
What negates Torah is when someone holds the opinion that any and all information unwritten in either Talmud or Torah is a lie and is to be rejected.
Someone that narrow and closed minded is representing the Inifinite Omniscient One Creator G-d of Israel as closed, finite, finished two thousand years ago, nothing more able to be learned or to even exist.
Yet each and all who cling to this viewpoint live lives totally dependent on everything they renounce as a lie and a denial of Torah!
They wear eyeglasses, own shoes and clothing manufactured from synthetic materials overseas in China which is then shipped to the States either on jets or on ships, use a home computer which relies on the the sciences of fiber optics and digital technology and has more computational power, speed, and precision than any one human brain, and they go regularly to see a Jewish physician using knowledge and instruments which his own ancestors decried and banned as "the desecration of Torah and the denial of G-d's existence!"
They'll even have "pacemakers" installed in their chest cavities!
If Ha'Shem hadn't already created each and every one of these miraculous sciences and properties at the very moment the Universe was Created, man wouldn't have been able to discover that they were always here from the very beginning waiting for him to use his brain as it was intended by his Creator.
Everything which "seemingly" (not really) contradicts Torah was put here by G-d at the moment of Creation, so denying any "scientific studies and facts" because they're not in Torah or Talmud is in essence putting MANKIND ahead of a Supreme Being!
For if these things were not from the beginning available for man to slowly discover and learn, then man himself invented each and every one and created the sciences and skills all by himself.
So, I don't have to decide which it is that I believe.
I long ago accepted the fact that a day as stated in time by the Sages still doesn't say a single thing about how long G-d Himself defines it as He sees fit and whenever He feels like it!
Any way you look at it, MassuhDGoodName is first in line for the 6000 remnant Yehudim, and muman613 is burning in Hell begging for icewater! ;D
Once the scientific evidences for a recent creation are studied, evilution flies out of the window. The sole reason billions of years are invoked is because the theory requires billions of years to even to begin to start opeartion.
Notice how the Big Bang theory cannot be squared with the Breishis account.
Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in G-d or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
As I said before. I have my reservations even after looking at the so-called evidence. I have pointed out that there are scientific reasons to question carbon-dating and I can provide links to these.
I do not believe that there is any contradiction between Science and Torah. Science is simply the attempt of man to try to understand the forces by which this world operate. Science has been extremely beneficial in many areas, but it has failed miserably in many other areas.true
Science is truly a double-edged sword. When people put more faith in science and the priests of science calling themselves scientists they are lead further and further from the answers to lifes many questions.This doesn't even make sense. Who does this?
Science asks those who believe in it to only believe that which can be proven by rational means, either by experiments or by mathematical equations. Hashem is not a mathematical equation, nor is he able to be experimented on... There will never be a science which can explain Hashem as science is in itself a creation of Hashem,I never suggested otherwise and again this strays from the point in question.
Gerald Schroeder is excellent for those politically-correct relativistic Aish HaTorah & Moderdox BTs who hold by Relativity ie who just have to have all opinions as being equally valid: that you can have simultaneously a 6,000 year old universe and a 16 billion year old one.
But that's not his position.
That you can have a Big Bang and a Steady State and a Divine Fiat Creation, all equally true!
As I've already stated, I personally don't believe Einstein's Relativity theory is correct.
And you obviously also don't, as like me, you are an ABSOLUTIST, and that opinions are mutually exclusive.Yes I agree that the world is not 6,000 years old and it is as old as science can determine it to be.
You obviously won't accept that 6,000 years is EQUALLY true as 16 billion years.
I happen to hold by a literal interpreation of the Torah - ain hamikra yotzei elo midei peshuto - and by those PhD scientists who show that evolution is impossible, and that geology, astronomy, biology, radiometry etc all indicate a recent Creation.
You happen to hold by a non-literal interpretation of the Torah, & what you learned at high school
and by those PhD scientists who believe in billions of years, in evolution, and who ridicule a recent creation and indeed a creation itself.
Meanwhile, you have still not given one iota of scientific evidence,
p.s. - and you don't have the slightest idea of what the word "imperialism" means.
Pirkie Avot
Mishnah 1:6
Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: Assume for yourself a master, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every man to the side of merit.
Mishnah 1:8
Judah the son of Tabbai and Shimon the son of Shotach received from them. Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.
Mishnah 2:4
...
Hillel would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say "When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,'' for perhaps you will never free yourself.
Mishnah 3:15
All is foreseen, and freedom of choice is granted. The world is judged with goodness, but in accordance with the amount of man's positive deeds.
Mishnah 4:7
His son, Rabbi Ishmael would say: One who refrains from serving as a judge avoids hatred, thievery and false oaths. One who frivolously hands down rulings is a fool, wicked and arrogant.
Mishnah 4:8
He would also say: Do not judge on your own, for there is none qualified to judge alone, only the One. And do not say, "You must accept my view," for this is their [the majority's] right, not yours.
"According to your statement, saying" — what is the statement? "God is long-suffering" – both to the righteous and to the wicked. When Moses ascended to Heaven to receive the Torah, he found the Holy One, Blessed be He, writing, "God is long-suffering." Whereupon [Moshe] said to Him, "To the righteous [only]." But God answered him, "Also to the wicked!" Moshe then said, "The wicked – let them perish!" Whereupon God said to him, "By your life! You will eventually need to resort to this [attribute, that God is long-suffering even to sinners]." When the Jewish people sinned with the Golden Calf and with the Spies, Moshe beseeched God to be long-suffering with them; the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to him, "Did you not tell Me that this [attribute] is for the righteous [only]?" Whereupon Moshe answered Him, "But did You not tell me that it is also for the wicked? 'And now, I beseech you, let the power of God be great, according to your statement.'" These are the words (based on Sanhedrin 111a) of Rashi…
Now Moshe mentions among the Divine attributes "long-suffering" and "of great kindness;" but he does not mention "truth", for according to the attribute of truth, they would have been guilty. Nor does Moshe mention "guarding kindness to the thousands," because he does not pray for mercy here based on the merit of the Patriarchs (zekhut Avot), and therefore he does not mention Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'akov at all in this prayer. The reason is because the Land was given to the Patriarchs, and it is from them that [the Israelites] were to inherit it; however, they rebel against their ancestors and reject the gift which the Patriarchs desired so much. How could he say now, "Remember Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yisra'el, Your servants, to whom you swore by Yourself… 'and all this land that I have spoken of, I will give to your descendants'" (Shemot 32:13), since they were saying: We do not want this gift!
Nice try, muman613.
How many names do you go under on this forum?
muman613,
You don't even scan a neo-Nazi website first, before putting the link on this forum?
And so you're going to purposely attack me for pointing it out?
It's easy to see how righteous you really are!
I'm with you.... I can't believe some of the reasons given for ignoring evolution... I feel like I am watching a poor reenactment of the Scopes Monkey Trials. :::D