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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mord on October 23, 2010, 05:35:11 PM
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140226
Catholic Cleric: Jesus Cancelled Biblical ‘Chosen People’
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
Follow Israel news on Twitter and Facebook.
The Creator’s promise in the Bible that the Promised Land belongs to the Jewish People is no longer valid is, a Catholic synod declared. An American archbishop at the Synod explained Saturday that the promise of the Creator was "abolished by the presence of Christ."
In a decision that is bound to set off a furious reaction from many Jewish leaders, the synod concluded that “recourse to theological and biblical positions which use the Word of G-d to wrongly justify injustices is not acceptable.”
However, an implicitly contradictory Synod statement also declared, “The same Scriptures unite us; The Tanach, the Word of G-d is for both you and us... We believe in the promises of G-d and his covenant given to Abraham and to you. We believe that the Word of G-d is eternal.”
The Catholic church in recent years has been trying to overcome centuries of anti-Semitism and proof that it exploited the Holocaust to try to convert Jews who were saved.
U.S. archbishop Cyril Salim Bustros, a Lebanese native who heads the commission that issued the Synod statement, told reporters, "For Christians, one can no longer talk of the land promised to the Jewish people… There is no longer a favored people, a chosen people; all men and women of every country have become the chosen people.”
After two weeks of meetings, the Synod also said that a two-state solution of a Palestinian Authority country, in place of most of the Land Israel, would help stem the exodus of Christians from the area.
Concerning Jerusalem, the Synod said it is “anxious about the unilateral initiatives that threaten its composition and risk to change its demographic balance.” After Jordanian-occupied area of Jerusalem were restored to Israel in 1967, the government opened all Christian holy sites after Jordan had banned non-official visits and closed the sites to tourists.
The Synod recognized "the suffering and insecurity in which Israelis live" but focused on what it called Palestinian Authority “suffering [of] the consequences of the Israeli occupation: the lack of freedom of movement, the wall of separation and the military checkpoints, the political prisoners, the demolition of homes, [and] the disturbance of socio-economic life and the thousands of refugees."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3973590,00.html
Vatican body asks UN to 'end Israeli occupation'
In final statement of two-week conference, bishops' synod says Biblical concept of 'promised land' cannot be used to justify settlements
Reuters
Published: 10.23.10, 14:00 / Israel News
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Israel cannot use the Biblical concept of a promised land or a chosen people to justify new "settlements" in Jerusalem or territorial claims, a Vatican synod on the Middle East said on Saturday.
In its concluding message after two weeks of meetings, the synod of bishops from the Middle East also said it hoped a two-state solution for peace between Israel and the Palestinians could be lifted from dream to reality and called for peaceful conditions that would stop a Christian exodus from the region.
"We have meditated on the situation of the holy city of Jerusalem. We are anxious about the unilateral initiatives that threaten its composition and risk to change its demographic balance," the message said.
US-brokered peace talks have stalled since Israel rejected appeals to extend a temporary moratorium on settlement construction in the West Bank that expired last month.
Since the freeze expired, Israel has announced plans to build another 238 homes in two east Jerusalem neighborhoods, drawing the condemnation of Palestinians and world leaders.
In a separate part of the document, a section on cooperation with Jews, the synod fathers also took issue with Jews who use the Bible to justify settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured in 1967.
"Recourse to theological and biblical positions which use the Word of God to wrongly justify injustices is not acceptable," the document said.
Many Jewish settlers and right-wing Israelis claim a biblical birthright to the West Bank, which they call Judea and Samaria and regard as a part of historical, ancient Israel given to the Jews by God.
Asked about the passage at a news conference, Greek-Melchite Archbishop Cyrille Salim Bustros, said:
"We Christians cannot speak about the promised land for the Jewish people. There is no longer a chosen people. All men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.
"The concept of the promised land cannot be used as a base for the justification of the return of Jews to Israel and the displacement of Palestinians," he added. "The justification of Israel's occupation of the land of Palestine cannot be based on sacred scriptures."
The synod's concluding message repeated a Vatican call for Jerusalem to have a special status "which respects its particular character" as a city sacred to the three great monotheistic religions -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Jerusalem remains a key issue of dispute. Palestinians want east Jerusalem for capital of a future state. Israel has annexed the area, a move never recognized internationally, and has declared Jerusalem to be its "united and eternal" capital.
Israel did not include east Jerusalem as part of its 10-month building freeze, though most plans there were put on hold in March, when the US protested reports of a new housing project leaked during a visit by Vice President Joe Biden.
While recognizing "the suffering and insecurity in which Israelis live" and the need for Israel to enjoy peace within internationally recognized borders, the document was much more expansive and detailed on the situation of Palestinians.
It said Palestinians "are suffering the consequences of the Israeli occupation: the lack of freedom of movement, the wall of separation and the military checkpoints, the political prisoners, the demolition of homes, the disturbance of socio-economic life and the thousands of refugees."
It urged Christians in the region not to sell their homes and properties. "It is a vital aspect of the lives of those who remain there and for those who one day will return there."
It condemned terrorism "from wherever it may proceed" as well as anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and discrimination against Christians.
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im sure that after saying that BS, the cleric went and molested some more boys with his muslim friends,
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im sure that after saying that BS, the cleric went and molested some more boys with his muslim friends,
Was Israel responsible for this
http://www.peacefaq.com/lebanon.html
Who are the Lebanese, and what is their history?
* The native peoples of today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine are Semites who lived for thousands of years, competing among themselves, building homelands, and defending them from outside as well as inside conquests. Among these native peoples were the Assyro-Chaldeans and Aramaeans in Syro-Mesopotamia, the Phoenicians, Canaanites, Hebrews and others in Lebanon and ancient Israel. The region was predominantly inhabited by Syriac speaking peoples. The region had enjoyed its own identity for centuries, perhaps millennia, before the Arab Islamic conquest.
After the military defeat of Byzantium and Persia, the two superpowers of the time, at the hands of the Arabs, the native populations were given three options. Either to submit to Islam and arabize, or to become Dhimmi, a second class citizen. A third option was the equivalent of ethnic cleansing. Large segments of the Syro-Mesopotamian, particularly the Syriac-speaking peoples, were arabised, Islamized or displaced from their original birthplace. Many among them lived as Dhimmis in the Arab dominated urban centers or in the country side. However a group of Christian Syriac-speaking people, the Maronites, were able to form a homeland in Mount Lebanon starting from the 7th century. The Maronites founded an independent entity called the Marada states. They resisted the various Arab Muslim dynasties for seven centuries and kept most of their homeland free from occupation. But a series of internal crisis and civil wars weakened the Marada states leading hence to their defeat at the hands of the Mamelukes in 1305.
The Maronites, joined by other Christians from the region, succeeded in recapturing their autonomy in 1840. After the massacres of 1860, European intervention granted additional autonomous status to the Christians of Mount Lebanon in 1860. During WWI, the third of the Christians perished, another third emigrated. Under French rule, the Lebanese Christians chose Greater Lebanon as a modern state. Lebanese nationalism was the end product of centuries of struggle for freedom.
In 1943, a national pact between Christian and Muslim leaders undermined the ethnic nationalism of the Christians. Until 1975, Lebanon enjoyed a financial success, while ethnic tensions remained unsolved. Lebanon was divided between a pro-Arab, mostly Islamic camp, which supported the Palestinians, and a Lebanese nationalist, Christian inspired camp, opposed to the dilution of the country's historic identity. The war of 1975-1990 destroyed the country, causing generalized massacres against civilians, particularly the Christian populations of the Shuf, Aley and the south. In October 1990, the Syrian army invaded the central free enclave of the Christians, ousted their government, disbanded their resistance, and imposed an Arab identity on the entire country.
Since 1990, the Lebanese Christians were submitted to a systematic campaign aiming at their political and cultural dismantling. Christian youth are constantly arrested, their media denied freedom, their leaders harassed, and their identity denied. The West has abandoned their national and communal claim, while many other groups were granted basic rights in the region. While Christians in the center are under occupation, and Christians in the south are submitted to terror attacks, only Lebanese Christians in the diaspora are potentially capable of acting on behalf of their besieged community.
- Dr Walid Phares, a native of Lebanon and formerly a lawyer in Beirut, and an instructor of political sociology at the Jesuit University of Beirut and Florida International University in Miami, is currently a professor of political science at Florida Atlantic University in Boca Raton, Florida. Dr Phares is the author of number of books and articles on ethnic conflict, nationalism, as well as Middle East politics and Lebanese affairs.
What was life like in Lebanon before Israel got involved and expelled the PLO?
* In 1970 Arafat and his PLO were kicked out of Jordan when he began to move against King Hussein. That bloody day was known as Black September. Arafat fled to the unsuspecting and friendly arms of the Lebanese people. Lebanon was formerly governed jointly by Muslims and Christians according to the agreement after WWII. In the twelve years Arafat was there (1970 until the Israelis threw him out in 1982) he turned Lebanon into one of the most bloody killing grounds in the world. At least 100,000 Lebanese civilians were killed. Every corner of Beirut was a checkpoint for the terrorists to collect money, take your car, or simply blow you away. Muslim and Christian militia killed each other with joy.
When Israel captured Beirut, they found that captured Christian soldiers were brought to Muslim hospitals where they were literally drained of their blood for transfusions to wounded Muslim PLO terrorists. One village chief made the mistake of defying Arafat. His 16 year old daughter was kidnapped and delivered to her father's doorstep in a sack, with her breasts cut off. The PLO adopted the Roman practice of tearing a man apart by using horses pulling his limbs in four directions. Arafat's men were more modern, using fours cars to dismember a man.
- Emanuel A. Winston
Middle East analyst & commentator
* "In the corners of the streets of Beirut, small children exhibit bottle which contained human ears dunked in acid, like pickles or artichokes in vinegar. Bodies are laying in the streets immersed in their coagulated blood, some lacking their procreative organs, which were cut off and put in acid for exhibition by children ...
"Nuns were raped in front of their parents and brothers and afterwards had their elbows slit....
"The number of those killed and wounded, and worse than anything the kidnapped whose fate was usually horrible and awesome, reached about 40,000, with both sides competing between themselves for the most ferocious actions. Complete villages were pillaged, set on fire, and all the population eliminated. The [PLO] Palestinian terrorists were the most extreme and cruelly vicious of all".
- Patrick Sills, British journalist
London Observer, 15 January 1976
* When, in 1976, Yasser Arafat's PLO destroyed Damour, a Christian Lebanese town of some 25,000 people, the Palestinian murderers employed the same barbaric methods as the Algerian fundamentalists. The priest of Damour, Father Mansour Labaky is quoted in J. Becker's The PLO:
"And I remember something which still frightens me. An entire family had been killed, the Can'an family, four children all dead, and the mother, the father and the grandfather. The mother was still hugging one of the children. And she was pregnant. The eyes of the children were gone and their limbs were cut off. No legs and no arms. It was awful....We buried them ...under the shells of PLO."
As J. Becker wrote, even before witnessing the atrocities, Father Labaky called Arafat and asked his aide to stop the shelling, saying, "I can assure you, as a religious leader, that we do not want the war; we do not believe in violence," He received a brutal reply, "Father, don't worry. We don't want to harm you. If we are destroying you, it is for strategic reasons."
- Free Lebanon
* The death and destruction caused in large part by the PLO and Syrian occupation of Lebanon during the era of the Lebanese civil war resulted in an estimated 100,000 killed, 250,000 wounded, 800,000 Christians and 500,000 Moslems homeless, and 32,000 orphaned children from 1970 to 1981.
source: American Lebanese League, 1982
* "After August 1982, Arafat's PLO had its existence only on his own lips, in the columns of Western newspapers, in the briefings of European foreign ministers, and in long speeches at the United Nations".
- Jullian Becker, in The PLO
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That dhimmi "priest" needs to resume bending over for Sheik Nasrallah.
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Where did Jesus ever say that the Jews are not the chosen people? ...Or say anything anti-Jewish? I challenge anyone to quote a scripture. This priest obviously does not have a grasp on the Bible.
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im sure that after saying that BS, the cleric went and molested some more boys with his muslim friends,
Was Israel responsible for this
Your question doesn't make any sense to me. How is Israel responsible for what Arafat y"s and the PLO did in Lebanon? Back then, Israel was fighting against the PLO-in-lebanon. And in any case, if Arafat y's and other muslim nazis did something, they are responsible, not Israel.
Lebanese nazis just want to blame Israel for everything. The lebanese nazis blame Israel because the lebanese decided to put fakestinian nazis into refugee camps and don't like the fakestinian vermin being in their country. So in their warped minds that's Israel's fault for making the vermin flee.
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We want Moshiach Now!
When I saw this story I was incensed. But this just proved the point I made right after Yom Kippur concerning the position of this church...
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We want Moshiach Now!
When I saw this story I was incensed. But this just proved the point I made right after Yom Kippur concerning the position of this church...
I love our Christian friends here and I really don't want to insult them. However....you're right!
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I love our Christian friends here and I really don't want to insult them. However....you're right!
I know you mean no offense at all but just for the record, this is not the position of all Christianity. This is the position of this Arab POS and his fellow Arab fudgepackers and several old primitive, resentful freaks of nature that haven't advanced beyond the Homo erectus stage.
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Who does Israel belong to then? Arabs? Are Arabs God's chosen people now? Be prepared to read new Bible who's printing is sponsored by muslim lobby. In its pages will be Arabs instead of Jews as chosen people :laugh: :laugh:
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Are Arabs G-d's chosen people now? Be prepared to read new Bible who's printing is sponsored by muslim lobby.
They already have that, they say that the Koran is the "real" Bible and that the "real" Gospel (the Injil) preaches Mohammed.
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[In my humble opinion] The Catholics need to man up and get a Pope* who will acknowledge there is a war between Islam and the West, and that the Catholic Church is part of the West. Blaming Israel for Muslim on Christian violence is asinine. A, the Catholic Church is no great supporter of Israel. B, Jews [the majority of Israelis] are not Christians, and play no part in Christian/Muslim relations!!
*who will get rid of petty clerics who lick Muslim boot.
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how about this guy changes from priest to imam, he will still get to molest children, but will also be allowed to have a wife, and beat her, along with the children he molests.
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B, Jews [the majority of Israelis] are not Christians, and play no part in Christian/Muslim relations!!
And the majority of Arab "Christians" are not Christians either.
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It must be stressed that the statement came at the end of a meeting chaired by Pope Benedict XVI, so the statement reflects his own views.
When Pope Benedict XVI came to Israel two years ago, he officially called for the creation of a "Palestinian state" as quickly as possible.
Y.Arafat, that pedophile terrorist Nazi, used to receive the honors of a great statesman from the Vatican.
We are in 2010 and nothing has changed : the Vatican is still antisemitic to the core. If I were the PM of Israel, I would cut all relations with the Vatican after a statement like that.
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It must be stressed that the statement came at the end of a meeting chaired by Pope Benedict XVI, so the statement reflects his own views.
When Pope Benedict XVI came to Israel two years ago, he officially called for the creation of a "Palestinian state" as quickly as possible.
Y.Arafat, that pedophile terrorist Nazi, used to receive the honors of a great statesman from the Vatican.
We are in 2010 and nothing has changed : the Vatican is still antisemitic to the core. If I were the PM of Israel, I would cut all relations with the Vatican after a statement like that.
No more Vatican "State" visits of any kind. If the Vatican wants to visit Israel it should not meet with Israeli gov't, or PLO/Hamas/Fatah. Get a new Pope or STFU!
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It must be stressed that the statement came at the end of a meeting chaired by Pope Benedict XVI, so the statement reflects his own views.
When Pope Benedict XVI came to Israel two years ago, he officially called for the creation of a "Palestinian state" as quickly as possible.
Y.Arafat, that pedophile terrorist Nazi, used to receive the honors of a great statesman from the Vatican.
We are in 2010 and nothing has changed : the Vatican is still antisemitic to the core. If I were the PM of Israel, I would cut all relations with the Vatican after a statement like that.
Popes and priests do not necessarily do what Jesus condoned. Do all Jews practice what G-d commands? There are anti-semites among Jews too you know. I would argue the percentage might be even higher. Aren't there anti-semitic rabbis? quit the bull...Didn't Chaim say that the chief rabbi in Jeruselem did things to hurt the cause for Israel?
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The Creator’s promise in the Bible that the Promised Land belongs to the Jewish People is no longer valid is, a Catholic synod declared. An American archbishop at the Synod explained Saturday that the promise of the Creator was "abolished by the presence of Christ."
I don't find this statement in my bible. The "archbishop" made it obviously up.
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The Creator’s promise in the Bible that the Promised Land belongs to the Jewish People is no longer valid is, a Catholic synod declared. An American archbishop at the Synod explained Saturday that the promise of the Creator was "abolished by the presence of Christ."
I don't find this statement in my bible. The "archbishop" made it obviously up.
you tell em Ulli!
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It must be stressed that the statement came at the end of a meeting chaired by Pope Benedict XVI, so the statement reflects his own views.
When Pope Benedict XVI came to Israel two years ago, he officially called for the creation of a "Palestinian state" as quickly as possible.
Y.Arafat, that pedophile terrorist Nazi, used to receive the honors of a great statesman from the Vatican.
We are in 2010 and nothing has changed : the Vatican is still antisemitic to the core. If I were the PM of Israel, I would cut all relations with the Vatican after a statement like that.
Popes and priests do not necessarily do what Jesus condoned. Do all Jews practice what G-d commands? There are anti-semites among Jews too you know. I would argue the percentage might be even higher. Aren't there anti-semitic rabbis? quit the bull...Didn't Chaim say that the chief rabbi in Jeruselem did things to hurt the cause for Israel?
If you read what I wrote, you should realize that your answer is wandering off the point. I was not talking about Catholics in general, but about the Vatican.
Still, the Pope is the leader of the worldwide church and a majority of Catholics worship the Pope. And I find it disgusting that not a single high-ranking Catholic official will raise their voice to condemn this kind of Nazi statement from the Vatican.
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It astonishes me how these people can try to teach others the Bible when they have such a poor understanding of it themselves. Where in the world do they get the idea that an eternal promise is temporary?
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It must be stressed that the statement came at the end of a meeting chaired by Pope Benedict XVI, so the statement reflects his own views.
When Pope Benedict XVI came to Israel two years ago, he officially called for the creation of a "Palestinian state" as quickly as possible.
Y.Arafat, that pedophile terrorist Nazi, used to receive the honors of a great statesman from the Vatican.
We are in 2010 and nothing has changed : the Vatican is still antisemitic to the core. If I were the PM of Israel, I would cut all relations with the Vatican after a statement like that.
Popes and priests do not necessarily do what Jesus condoned. Do all Jews practice what G-d commands? There are anti-semites among Jews too you know. I would argue the percentage might be even higher. Aren't there anti-semitic rabbis? quit the bull...Didn't Chaim say that the chief rabbi in Jeruselem did things to hurt the cause for Israel?
If you read what I wrote, you should realize that your answer is wandering off the point. I was not talking about Catholics in general, but about the Vatican.
Still, the Pope is the leader of the worldwide church and a majority of Catholics worship the Pope. And I find it disgusting that not a single high-ranking Catholic official will raise their voice to condemn this kind of Nazi statement from the Vatican.
Why would they. This is obviously Vatican's official position.
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Catholics worship the Pope too? :o :D :disease:
I must be lapse in my faith.
I believe in and worship G-d.
I don't have faith in or worship symbols.
I don't worship a 'spiritual leader', or any person for that matter.
I must have a complete misunderstanding of how I should be observing my faith in G-d. ???
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This is the same old Catholic church that censored Galileo, forbade "commoners" from reading the scriptures, and made its money by selling tickets of absolution for the illiterate masses. This convention of islamic bishops took part in the Vatican with the blessing of the Pope. So unless I hear from him a complete rejection to the evils that had been spoken there, I must assume that the Pope is in agreement with them.
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Well, I'm shaking now. Like I really care what Cleric Synod, aka- cleric snot, says. If Netenyahu stays in power long enough, Israel will give most of the the land away to Cleric Snot's new chosen people, the Arabs. Snot won't have to worry about a thing.
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Catholics worship the Pope too? :o :D :disease:
I must be lapse in my faith.
I believe in and worship G-d.
I don't have faith in or worship symbols.
I don't worship a 'spiritual leader', or any person for that matter.
I must have a complete misunderstanding of how I should be observing my faith in G-d. ???
People tend to assume bad things about Catholics when something like this happens without realizing that they are a very large group and have very different opinions from each other.
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Catholics worship the Pope too? :o :D :disease:
I must be lapse in my faith.
I believe in and worship G-d.
I don't have faith in or worship symbols.
I don't worship a 'spiritual leader', or any person for that matter.
I must have a complete misunderstanding of how I should be observing my faith in G-d. ???
People tend to assume bad things about Catholics when something like this happens without realizing that they are a very large group and have very different opinions from each other.
Well I must say I am relieved to read what Bullcat writes. I think most non Catholics think that Catholics see the Pope as some sort of divine figure which is "unable" to make mistakes.
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im sure that after saying that BS, the cleric went and molested some more boys with his muslim friends,
Was Israel responsible for this
Your question doesn't make any sense to me. How is Israel responsible for what Arafat y"s and the PLO did in Lebanon? Back then, Israel was fighting against the PLO-in-lebanon. And in any case, if Arafat y's and other muslim nazis did something, they are responsible, not Israel.
Lebanese nazis just want to blame Israel for everything. The lebanese nazis blame Israel because the lebanese decided to put fakestinian nazis into refugee camps and don't like the fakestinian vermin being in their country. So in their warped minds that's Israel's fault for making the vermin flee.
It was rhetorical and sarcastic of course Israel wasn't responsible
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Well look who came up with this idea [quote]U.S. archbishop Cyril Salim Bustros, a Lebanese native who heads the commission that issued the Synod statement, told reporters,[/quote]
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It's painful to see the Catholic Church putting political-correctness before the teachings of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ invalidated Israel being for the Jews. I'm sure what they're doing is trying to prevent war with Islam and they're selling out the Jews to do it.
But then again, corruptedness of the Catholic Church(the hierarchy, not individual catholics) is why protestants broke away in the first place.
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It's painful to see the Catholic Church putting political-correctness before the teachings of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ invalidated Israel being for the Jews. I'm sure what they're doing is trying to prevent war with Islam and they're selling out the Jews to do it.
But then again, corruptedness of the Catholic Church(the hierarchy, not individual catholics) is why protestants broke away in the first place.
Actually I head this from a Christian before. According to that theory there is no chosen people according to the NT... This was the response I was told when I said that the Jews were called Devils in the NT... That Jews are no longer the chosen people so thus the Jews today are not related to the Jews that killed the crust...
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I've never heard it before, and frankly I don't believe you heard it before either. I think you're lying to prove a point. I don't believe you because you've made it quite clear you don't believe in hearing what Christianity has to say because it is idol worship. Why should anyone believe you sat down and listened to the Christian position on anything?
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Actually I head this from a Christian before. According to that theory there is no chosen people according to the NT... This was the response I was told when I said that the Jews were called Devils in the NT... That Jews are no longer the chosen people so thus the Jews today are not related to the Jews that killed the crust...
This isn't the NT position, so whoever told you this had poor theology.
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There is a doctrine known as replacement theology Muman, but it's only one opinion within Christianity and I think nearly all of the Christians that would come to a board like this would strongly disagree with that. I don't believe that anyone has replaced the Jews or taken over their place in God's plans.
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It's painful to see the Catholic Church putting political-correctness before the teachings of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ invalidated Israel being for the Jews. I'm sure what they're doing is trying to prevent war with Islam and they're selling out the Jews to do it.
But then again, corruptedness of the Catholic Church(the hierarchy, not individual catholics) is why protestants broke away in the first place.
Actually I head this from a Christian before. According to that theory there is no chosen people according to the NT... This was the response I was told when I said that the Jews were called Devils in the NT... That Jews are no longer the chosen people so thus the Jews today are not related to the Jews that killed the crust...
Muman that Christian is very ignorant as a Jew and not even a Christian i know that the Christian Testament mentions that Christians are a branch that are grafted onto Judaism the tree.Thats as far as it goes.
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Actually my friend asked two christian priests about this. These priests were telling her the official church position. I have found a reference to this belief on Jews for Judaism antimissionary site...
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=343:just-say-know-what-qreal-christiansq-believe-about-jews-&catid=27:missionary-groups--tactics-and-responses&Itemid=504
Just Say Know: What "Real Christians" Believe about Jews
Try this: Ask any fundamentalist Christian why his/her spiritual forebears launched the Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Holocaust. 10 out of 10 will retort, "Those weren't real Christians. Real Christians love the Jews and wouldn't do that." So, what then, do "real Christians" believe about Jews?
written by Mark W. Sanders
Try this: Ask any fundamentalist Christian why his/her spiritual forebears launched the Inquisition, the Crusades, or the Holocaust. 10 out of 10 will retort, "Those weren't real Christians. Real Christians love the Jews and wouldn't do that." So, what then, do "real Christians" believe about Jews?
As a former fundamentalist minister, I know the answers intimately. I spent years living by one imperative: Preach the Gospel (personal salvation through faith in Christ) to the ends of the earth (to all people everywhere), as outlined in Matthew 28:18. Through this enterprise, I believed that Christians would eventually trigger the second coming of Christ, who could not return to earth till all had heard the Gospel, till the last home and hamlet had been reached. This is the ultimate responsibility of all real Christians (Matthew 24:14). Ask them. They will tell you. Otherwise, they are not truly "Bible believing."
Real Christians affirm that all non-believers are lost. Each must repent or reject in response to hearing the Good News. Paul of Tarsus, who wrote at least 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament, refined the focus, saying "the gospel . . . is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." (Romans 1:16)
Many missions to Jews use this text to validate their outreach. For them, the conversion of the Jew is the top priority in world evangelism. While all souls are important, Jews are most important. Paul hints at a day when the Jews will respond: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part (by rejecting Christ) until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved . . ." (Romans 11:26). I myself used these passages in raising funds to evangelize Jewish souls (may G-d forgive me).
Real Christians have a love-hate relationship toward the Jews. While believing the original Hebrew Scriptures to be the infallible and inspired word of God, they also believe the New Testament to be equally, though superceedingly, inspired. This includes Paul's words in which he calls Jews "the enemies of the Gospel." But Paul explains that this had to happen for God's acceptance to be extended to the Gentiles.
Using an olive tree to represent "the people of God," Paul says the natural, cultivated branches (the Jews) were broken off so that wild branches (the Gentiles) could be grafted in. He adds that Jews who come to faith in Christ can be regrafted and thus there will be one reconstituted people of God (Romans 11:17-24).
So, real Christians believe that Jews and Gentiles should become one people, one community of faith. Paul explains "the mystery of Christ . . . is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharing together in the promise in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 3:6). Can you say a-s-s-i-m-i-l-a-t-i-o-n?
Real Christians believe they have replaced the Jews as the chosen people. Peter, one of Jesus' closest disciples, wrote "you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God" (I Peter 2:9). All of these terms were used exclusively of ancient Israel. Look at Exodus 19:5, 6. The borrowing, the redefining, and the conclusions are obvious -- and ominous, as we shall see.
Real Christians believe the Torah is null: "Christ is the mediator of a new covenant that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that he has died to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15) Real Christians regard observance of the Torah as an impossibly futile exercise. The only value of the Torah is to teach us all that we couldn't keep God's standard and thus needed a savior to rescue us from the penalty of falling short of it.
Lest you think these are harmless theological sound bites, consider the applications of these views. To real Christians, the Jews are currently in a state of spiritual blindness and rebellion and subject to the wrath of God. (An unfortunate percentage believe the Holocaust was a payback for the Jews' role in the crucifixion.) Jews do have value as the former harbingers of God's justice and righteousness, but today they must be absorbed into Christendom to find their real identity. Star Trek fans will discern a Borg-like parallelism in this. (I shudder to think how I contributed to it.)
Over the last 20 years, a multi-million dollar assimilation movement has evolved internationally to woo, win, entice, beguile, or ensnare the secularized Jew, the unaffiliated Jew, the biblically illiterate Jew, the disillusioned Jew. In my church of several thousand members, we had some 600 Jews. I once observed that many of them were not well-adjusted psychologically or emotionally. They had not found a secure place amongst their own families and communities. However, amongst the Christians, each could be a minor celebrity. A converted Jew was awarded special significance; s/he was the fulfillment of the ultimate Christian mitzvah. Looking back, I recall that not one of those 600 converts was from a truly Orthodox Jewish home. Coincidence?
While many fundamentalist Christian leaders express contrition for the historical abuses of Jews, their baseline objective has not shifted: Bring the Jews to faith in Christ by any and all means. These include establishing messianic "shuls" with free Passover seders and high holy day services, sponsoring massive literature mailings to Russian immigrants in Israel, printing "Jewish New Testaments," holding high visibility street and campus rallies to attract vulnerable Jewish youth, and promoting special "Jewish" youth camps with an emphasis on messianic music and Bible study. One leader I know raised money to put up billboards in Orthodox neighborhoods saying only "Isaiah 53," then changing to read "Jesus" after a few weeks. They actually believe such activities will inspire a spiritual shift in Jew's allegiance and affiliation.
Southern California is home to high profile evangelists who have raised millions of dollars to "improve" Jewish/Christian/Israel relations, including Orange County's Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel and Paul and Jan Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network. This has involved grandiose philanthropy for Jewish and Israeli projects, massive "Christian Zionist" tours to Israel, as well as carefully cultivated meetings with Israel's top leaders. But from my own personal dealings with these and other groups, I guarantee that all talk of "understanding, support, and reconciliation towards the Jews" is a siren's song. All of these people are unflinchingly committed to evangelize the Jews. Jesus warned of wolves in sheep's clothing. Gucci couldn't have designed a better fit.
There's a darker side to this. I spoke with a wealthy, well-connected Newport Beach "real Christian" who told me "the Jews of today are not Jews at all. They are really Edomites, descended from Esau. They don't practice Judaism. They practice Talmudism. The real Jews are the descendants of the Northern Europeans, who originally were dispersed from ancient Israel by the Assyrians and Babylonians." Not surprisingly, he also informed me that the Holocaust was "a mega-myth, choreographed by those clever Edomite-Jews who are really part of the subhuman mud races." While this man's views are not mainstream, they are increasingly in popularity.
Today's Jews are a spiritual anachronism for real Christians. The fundamentalist theo-political agenda has no room for pluralism or tolerant co-existence with people of divergent views. You are in or out, saved or lost, redeemed or damned. All non-Christians are in darkness and need a savior. All non-Christians must hear the message of salvation. Belief in that imperative keeps the money flowing to fulfill the Great Commission to reach all the world. This is a passionate point of no compromise for all real Christians, who claim to be 40+ million strong in America. When seen for what it is, however, their zeal includes the spiritual extinction of today's Jews.
How is that any different than the evils done 50, 500, or 1,000 years ago? As one who engaged in it in this generation, I soberly submit, it's not. Perhaps the real Christians could love us a little less and pursue justice a little more?
Mark Sanders is a former Pentecostal, fundamentalist minister who engaged in missionary activity in Israel, working in kibbutzim and the Israeli public school system. In the process of mastering Hebrew, he began to see many serious inconsistencies and errors in the Christian Bible. His studies of Tanakh persuaded him to rethink & eventually resign from his Christian views of the Bible. Now an observant Jew, Mark is the Outreach Director of the Los Angeles office of Jews for Judaism.
Im just saying that many Churches today teach that the Jews todafy are not the chosen people... At least two churches in my local area were asked about this and said the same thing...
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Most fundamentalist Christians are no more real Christians than reform Jews are real Jews. To use a comparison that you should be able to understand.
If a Christian would a) go to Israel to missionize b) think Christians are, basically, the new Jews c) think the Jews are actually Edomites(lol?) then they are in a very small, ridiculous minority. Not that you care or believe us though because you get your information from biased websites.
Mostly, this article is insane and most Christians would be wondering what any of that nonsense is. I know I am. It's no wonder this fellow converted to Judaism seeing as he doesn't seem to know much about Christianity. He reminds me of the Fred Phelps-style wacky fundamentalist churches.
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Most fundamentalist Christians are no more real Christians than reform Jews are real Jews. To use a comparison that you should be able to understand.
If a Christian would a) go to Israel to missionize b) think Christians are, basically, the new Jews c) think the Jews are actually Edomites(lol?) then they are in a very small, ridiculous minority. Not that you care or believe us though because you get your information from biased websites.
Mostly, this article is insane and most Christians would be wondering what any of that nonsense is. I know I am. It's no wonder this fellow converted to Judaism seeing as he doesn't seem to know much about Christianity. He reminds me of the Fred Phelps-style wacky fundamentalist churches.
I think this article is quite valid.
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Vatican is satanist organization and it has nothing to do with Christianity(Messianism).It is fallen organization of homosexuals,pedophiles and killers.They are the biggest source of hatred toward Jewish people in last 1000 years.Their so called "theology"(which is masked ideology of satanism) have led to bringing Hitler on power and extermination of Jews in Europe and all those who didn't want to bow down to their satanism(including my people).
In the Book of Daniel there is mentioned "little horn" who is going to change the Laws,change the times,cancel the tamid(sacrifice).
Vatican has ejected G-d's 2nd commandment from the Bible which states that it is forbidden to bow down and worship anything but the Lord(that's changing the Laws), hole World uses their - Roman calendar which is heliocentric(changing "the times" in order not to understand G-d's prophecies correctly) and the tamid does not exist-canceled.
History tells us more what they have done and what kind of organization it is, and the present could also tell us if we remove the dirt in our eyes.
Here is the oath of rulling Jesuit Order in Vatican and how they initiate their members into higher levels:
Superior speaks:
My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant, and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.
You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace. To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means.
You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death.
You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labors with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved." Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me---
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"1, _ now, in the presence of Almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the holy Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven, and to you, my ghostly father, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola in the Pontificate of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear, that his holiness the Pope is Christ's Vice-regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by virtue of the keys of binding and loosing, given to his Holiness by my Savior, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, states, commonwealths and governments, all being illegal without his sacred confirmation and that they may safely be destroyed. Therefore, to the utmost of my power I shall and will defend this doctrine of his Holiness' right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the now pretended authority and churches of England and Scotland, and branches of the same now established in Ireland and on the Continent of America and elsewhere; and all adherents in regard that they be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now renounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or state named Protestants or Liberals, or obedience to any of the laws, magistrates or officers.
I do further declare that the doctrine of the churches of England and Scotland, of the Calvinists, Huguenots and others of the name Protestants or Liberals to be damnable and they themselves damned who will not forsake the same.
I do further declare, that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of his Holiness' agents in any place wherever I shall be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland or America, or in any other Kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my uttermost to extirpate the heretical Protestants or Liberals' doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, regal or otherwise.
I do further promise and declare, that notwithstanding I am dispensed with, to assume my religion heretical, for the propaganda of the Mother Church's interest, to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they may entrust me and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstance whatever; but to execute all that shall be proposed, given in charge or discovered unto me, by you, my ghostly father, or any of this sacred covenant.
I do further promise and declare, that I will have no opinion or will of my own, or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the Militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ.
That I may go to any part of the world withersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions of the North, the burning sands of the desert of Africa, or the jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America, without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever communicated to me.
I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.
In confirmation of which, I hereby dedicate my life, my soul and all my corporal powers, and with this dagger which I now receive, I will subscribe my name written in my own blood, in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the Militia of the Pope cut off my hands and my feet, and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulphur burned therein, with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul be tortured by demons in an eternal hell forever!
All of which, I, _, do swear by the Blessed Trinity and blessed Sacraments, which I am now to receive, to perform and on my part to keep inviolable; and do call all the heavenly and glorious host of heaven to witness the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, and witness the same further with my name written and with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and sealed in the face of this holy covenant."
(He receives the wafer from the Superior and writes his name with the point of his dagger dipped in his own blood taken from over his heart.)
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Let's try not to fight with each other anymore. I know that it can be tempting to try to hash out all our differences but we don't really have the luxury of doing that anymore right now.
The Jews and Christians obviously believe very different things, but there's no reason we can't move beyond that and work together.
It was my Christian family that taught me to like Jews. Many people believe the same way I do. I don't think you should turn away friends who come here to help, when the world is full of anti-Semites of all kinds.
Let's defeat that Muslim pig Obama!
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Once on a maryland radio show, on the conservative station that plays rush limbaugh and hannity, on one of the evening shows with some nobody, I listened on the way home from work. They brought up the Pope Benedict and the church's credibility. This was a few years ago when the child molesting controversy was really heated up (I forget what had prompted that particular increase in awareness or focus on the issue at that time) - The pope was about to visit America.
They asked the listeners - What can the Pope say or do to re-establish credibility for the church? Ie - should he admit guilt with how they handled the pedofiles, say sorry, etc?
One caller said the Pope should stop supporting the destruction of Israel by calling for the formation of a PLO terrorist state. Then he'll have credibility. The host was totally incredulous. He said "what?! The pope doesn't support terrorists how can you say that?" The caller said something like "He called for the formation of a 'Palestinian state' which would be led by PLO terrorists and designed to destroy Israel." The host hung up on the guy and said something back like, "Oh come on, The Pope has called for peace in the middle east, he does not support terrorists and he supports the two-state solution because that will bring peace, he is against the violence there"
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KWRBT, I can barely listen to regular "conservative" talk radio anymore, because JTF is so right wing that it sort of spoiled it for me (in a good way though). That talk show host was just uninformed and ignorant.
Most people don't understand these issues very well. Consider the fact that to most people, George W. Bush is considered an arch conservative right winger. On JTF we would still consider him to be a leftist who was anti-Israel.
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Let's try not to fight with each other anymore. I know that it can be tempting to try to hash out all our differences but we don't really have the luxury of doing that anymore right now.
The Jews and Christians obviously believe very different things, but there's no reason we can't move beyond that and work together.
It was my Christian family that taught me to like Jews. Many people believe the same way I do. I don't think you should turn away friends who come here to help, when the world is full of anti-Semites of all kinds.
Let's defeat that Muslim pig Obama!
Your family taught you well, but as Jews we're tired of hearing these Christian clergy spout off their bulllshittt. They can shove it!
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Let's try not to fight with each other anymore. I know that it can be tempting to try to hash out all our differences but we don't really have the luxury of doing that anymore right now.
The Jews and Christians obviously believe very different things, but there's no reason we can't move beyond that and work together.
It was my Christian family that taught me to like Jews. Many people believe the same way I do. I don't think you should turn away friends who come here to help, when the world is full of anti-Semites of all kinds.
Let's defeat that Muslim pig Obama!
Your family taught you well, but as Jews we're tired of hearing these Christian clergy spout off their bulllshittt. They can shove it!
I hear what you are saying. But our Rabbis have been caught saying some things which can be taken as provocation against others... I think at this time we should not bear any anger over this. To me this was not news...
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Please understand there are many different streams and regional versions of Christianity. There are far more denominations than there are in Judaism. What is normal in one area is likely very different than in another. In the case of this synod, it was mostly made of middle-eastern clerics who are a bunch of stinky arabs. We all know most arab so-called Christians are really arabist racist drek who agree with their muslim brothers on almost everything. If you look at Judaism you will see the more liberal sects like reform/reconstructionist are virtually divested from Israel and have many self-haters who support the arabs.
There are many regional differences on many issues. For instance in North America many Christian churches are becoming more liberal and tolerant of homosexuality while newer churches in Asia, Africa or South America are vehemently against it.
Quoting a fundamentalist pentacostal minister(I know many who would say pentacostals aren't really Christians because of their odd practices) and saying this is proof of what a "real Christian" thinks is about as fair as quoting rabbi Michael Lerner and using him as an example of true Judaism.
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Your family taught you well, but as Jews we're tired of hearing these Christian clergy spout off their bulllshittt. They can shove it!
I get tired of it too. It's very embarassing when there are people saying those kinds of things. I'm not a Catholic and I don't really think what they say reflects on anyone else. I know there have been some real retards in all kinds of different denominations. I don't identify with any kind of hateful statements against Judaism. I've even had Catholic family members on my dad's side, but they never said anything about Jews in a bad way either.
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Your family taught you well, but as Jews we're tired of hearing these Christian clergy spout off their bulllshittt. They can shove it!
I get tired of it too. It's very embarassing when there are people saying those kinds of things. I'm not a Catholic and I don't really think what they say reflects on anyone else. I know there have been some real retards in all kinds of different denominations. I don't identify with any kind of hateful statements against Judaism. I've even had Catholic family members on my dad's side, but they never said anything about Jews in a bad way either.
Thanks for understanding!
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You're welcome. I hope people realize that it's also frustrating for Christians to see these kinds of statements.