JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Dan on December 30, 2010, 10:49:51 AM
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Now they need to find the others guilty if treason
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The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.
Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!
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You just barely beat me to this topic, Dan.
It's good this chazir will do some time, but now how about some of the other Israeli Bolsheviks that have done a thousand times worse?
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The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.
Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!
On this topic I agree with wonga66...
I have had to work with women in my office and have witnessed workplace romances which have destroyed marriages.
Luckily where I work today I do not have to work with any women...
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On this topic I agree with wonga66...
I have had to work with women in my office and have witnessed workplace romances which have destroyed marriages.
Luckily where I work today I do not have to work with any women...
No comment.
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The President Katsav verdict reminds one of the advisability of keeping to the Code of Jewish Law's Hilchot Yichud - "The Laws of Modesty" - that govern with whom and when a Jewish man can be alone with a woman.
Personal female secretaries are a recipe for disaster, laying both open to suspicions and charges.
In Even Haezer section of the Code of Jewish Law there is a section Lihitrachek min hanashim - "On distancing from women", which states tzarich ha'adam lihtrachek min hanashim me'od me'od - "a man must keep away from women very very much"!
The Talmud views men and women as two different 'species' who should not over mix: "Do not overly converse with a woman, even one's own wife, let alone another's...he will bring evil on himself, neglect Torah study, and in the end will inherit Gehinnom!" (Pirke Avot 1:5)
Like the US White House under Clinton, Israel's Beit Hanassi has been brought somewhat into disrepute. One of the signs of the Chevlei Moshiach - "the Pre-Messianic Pangsl" - is when Beit Hava'ad l'znut - "the High Offices will become bordellos" (Mishna Sotah 9)!
I think you are right too. Being with a woman too much will make you too cozy and weak.
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What we want now is Katsav to threaten to throw a news conference where he'll spill the beans on secrets he knows eg the Rabin killing etc, so that they have to immediately take him out, like Zeevi, Elassar & Eitan!
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01369/MosheKatsav_1369427c.jpg)
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/People/eitanr.jpg)
(http://www.amit.org.il/learning/english/zeevi/images/zeevi.jpg)
(http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/images/members/benelisar_eli-s.jpg)
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I don't particularly like working around other women because of how chatty they are. When I go to work I just want to do my tasks and be left alone pretty much to do them, rather than chatting about the weather, boyfriends, other workers, movies, etc. I don't mind a little bit but when someone wants to chat chat chat I get annoyed. I prefer working around men because they pretty much have the same attitude I do toward that.
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Men make much better personal secretaries, telephone operators, bank staff, nurses and dental nurses than women!
"Men must always make the blessing "...who has not made me a woman" with kavannah and gratitude to Hashem.....because it's better to be a man!" (Rabbi Avigdor Miller 1995)
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I think Katzav is guilty as charged, but also that technically the judges were too severe with him in face of the concrete evidence laid before them.
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It is always trying living with a wife who is jealous of other women. In my previous marriage my wife would constantly accuse me of having relationships with other women. The best strategy, in my opnion, is to avoid working with them {unless you have to}.
For a short time here where I work I had a woman supervisor, but she moved up in the organization and now we don't really have any women working in the work group I work in.
This is not any kind of comment on women or their ability to do the job. The issue from the Jewish standpoint is that a man should not look at or talk to a woman who is not his wife {if he is married}. The entire Jewish field of Yichud concerns the boundries which must be established between men and women.
Here is a brief talk about the concepts of Yichud:
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Yichud%20Prohibition%20-%20Part%201.htm
The Yichud Prohibition- Part One:
To Whom Does It Apply?
by Rabbi Howard Jachter
Introduction
It is quite challenging to abide by the Yichud restrictions. This prohibition restricts a man and a woman from being secluded unless they are married or very close relatives. Abiding by this Halacha is, however, an essential component in maintaining a Torah lifestyle and Kedushat Yisrael (the holiness of the Jewish People). In this issue and the next, we will discuss the parameters of this prohibition and how we abide by this prohibition in the modern context.
The Source of the Prohibition
The Gemara (Kiddushin 80b) notes that the Torah (Devarim 13:7) hints at the prohibition for a man and a woman to be secluded unless they are married or very close relatives. The Rishonim debate whether this is a Torah level or a rabbinic level prohibition. For a list of these Rishonim, see the Encyclopedia Talmudit 23:634-635. The Bait Shmuel (Even Haezer 22:1) cites this debate but does not decide which view is accepted. The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:2), however, rules that it is a Torah level prohibition. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 21b) that states that Yichud is a Torah level prohibition appears to clearly support this view (though one could argue that the Gemara means that there is a basis for this prohibition in the Torah). Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Spektor (Teshuvot Ein Yitzchak 1: E.H.8:4) notes, however, that even those Rishonim who believe that this prohibition is only rabbinic in nature agree that it is a very stringent prohibition, especially since this is a restriction that predates the time of David Hamelech and has a basis in the Torah.
The original Torah prohibition includes only a man’s seclusion with a woman defined as an “Erva” in the Torah, such as a married Jewish woman. David Hamelech added the prohibition to engage in Yichud with an unmarried Jewish woman (Sanhedrin 21). Later, Shammai and Hillel prohibited seclusion even with a non-Jewish woman (Avoda Zara 36b). The Acharonim debate whether an unmarried woman who is a Nidda is included in the original prohibition or is part of the decree of King David (see Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:8:8 for a discussion of the issue). The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:1) rules that that type of woman is included in the original prohibition. The Mishna Berura (75:17) seems to agree.
Who is Excluded for the Prohibition?
The Gemara (Kiddushin 80b) states that the Yichud prohibition does not apply to a man and his mother. In fact, the Gemara (Kiddushin 81b) states that a man is permitted to dwell in the same house with his mother or his daughter even if no one else lives there. Rashi (ad. loc. s.v. Vedar) explains that the Yetzer Hara is not interested in such a case, as the Gemara (Sanhedrin 64a) records that the Anshei Knesset Hagedola convinced Hashem with their Tefilot to curtail the Yetzer Hara for incest.
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See this discussion of the Pirkie Avot which wonga66 brought:
http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter1-5b.html
Chapter 1, Mishna 5(b)
Marriage and the Dark Side of the Force
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld
"Yossi ben (son of) Yochanan of Jerusalem said: Let your house be open wide, let the poor be members of your household, and do not chatter excessively with women. This was said regarding one's own wife, certainly with another's wife. Based on this the Sages have said, one who chatters excessively with women causes evil to himself, wastes time from Torah study, and will eventually inherit Gehenna."
For the past two classes we have been discussing the sanctity of the home. As the Sages instruct, religious practices and values must not be relegated to the synagogue or some other setting outside the home. Our homes must be permeated with sanctity, and both Torah scholars and the downtrodden should be welcome within.
We are now ready to discuss the second issue of our mishna, talking excessively with women. It is appropriate to approach this from the context of this and the previous mishna. The sanctity of the home to a great extent rests on the husband-wife relationship within. If their relationship is founded upon closeness and a sharing of values, the home will flourish. If it is based upon frivolity and lust -- or if the husband finds he has better "chatter" (what we today call "chemistry") with women outside the home -- the basic building blocks of the home will be lacking, and the home will only with difficulty survive.
Our mishna uses the term "sicha" for speech, which means light or trivial talk, kibitzing or banter. Regarding another man's wife the danger is evident. Empty, frivolous conversation may lead to a much more serious breakdown of behavior. We will learn later: "Jesting and lightheadedness accustom a person to immorality" (3:17). Interaction with women may be a regular part of our daily activities, but we must always take care that a certain sense of formality is maintained. This of course does not mean to imply coldness or aloofness. As always in Judaism, the correct balance must be sought. However, this is one area in which the Sages, in their wisdom and insight, warn us to take extra care. Dangers lurk -- sometimes only slightly beneath the thinnest veneer of propriety -- and caution must be constantly maintained.
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What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.
It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.
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What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.
It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.
I was not commenting on the rape. I was just elaborating on what wonga was saying and my personal experience in the workplace. I do not know anyone personally who was raped, or raped anyone...
But concerning Katzav, he is a swine and deserves to be punished for his sexual immorality...
BTW, the Torah does not proscribe death for the crime of Rape... Only in cases of Adultery does Torah proscribe the death penalty. Rape is an entirely different topic from a Torah perspective.
http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/br/dt.59.1.08.html
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-1258/punishment-for-rape/
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So in other words, you followed a rabbit trail set by a Torah-bashing troll.
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So in other words, you followed a rabbit trail set by a Torah-bashing troll.
There are many things I do not agree with wonga on... I have clearly said when I disagree with what he writes. His fascination with the descendants of Essau is especially troubling for me... But sometimes he does say things which are correct...
Should I deny the truth just because there are things which I disagree with him about?
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What was correct about what he just said? He posted a screed against women that basically implied that these rapes were the fault of women mingling with men.
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What was correct about what he just said? He posted a screed against women that basically implied that these rapes were the fault of women mingling with men.
That is what you read in what he said? I do not see such an implication... Please clarify what exactly he said which blames the rapes on the women? What he said is that Jewish laws are intended to prevent these kinds of things from happening... This does not blame the women for anything, the blame is still on the man, but the Jewish belief is that the man is weak when it comes to attraction to females, and he needs to control his heart and his eyes {We say this in the Shema prayer three times a day}.
I don't know why DBF but I will clarify what I am saying with another 'cut&paste' which you love so much:
http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/mindcontrol.html
In the last paragraph of the Shema prayer, we are commanded "Do not stray after your hearts and after your eyes" (Numbers, 15:39). Exercise control, we are told, and don't follow after the desires of your heart. Don't allow yourself to become jealous, angry, lustful, greedy, or have any other undesirable emotions and thoughts that are part of the human condition. Control yourself.
On the other hand, the Talmud makes a seemingly paradoxical statement: "No person is saved from thoughts of sin" (Bava Basrah 164b). No one, no matter how righteous he or she is, can escape provocative thoughts. It is part of what makes us human and no person is spared.
So how can God command us in the Shema not to stray after our hearts? Experiencing those dark thoughts and feelings is part of our human existence that He Himself created!
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Thanks for the cut & paste.
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The old style of sexually rampant womanizing Israeli brutes who had the 'hots' for women, like Dayan, Mordechai, Ramon, Peres and Katsav are a vanishing breed.
Indeed men worldwide are rapidly losing interest, and even becoming repulsed by women and marriage in general due to over-exposure to women, women becoming unattractive in soul and body, loss of the feminine mystique, men realising that women are just men but with longer hair with their gonads internalised, fear of family-upkeep litigation, divorce settlements and rape charges, testosterone and sperm levels falling due to dysgenics, pollution and as predicted, increase in homosexuality, together with ....the internet!
One has to take one's hat off to the Haredim, who even if they aren't particularly attracted to a woman, will still marry her out of a sense of mitzva duty and peer pressure.
(http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/462913DC-2B76-4A3A-AD68-E3EC0B3F44AA/GL001666.jpg)
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The old style of sexually rampant womanizing Israeli brutes who had the 'hots' for women, like Dayan, Mordechai, Ramon, Peres and Katsav are a vanishing breed.
Indeed men worldwide are rapidly losing interest, and even becoming repulsed by women and marriage in general due to over-exposure to women, women becoming unattractive in soul and body, loss of the feminine mystique, men realising that women are just men but with longer hair with their gonads internalised, fear of family-upkeep litigation, divorce settlements and rape charges, testosterone and sperm levels falling due to dysgenics, pollution and as predicted, increase in homosexuality, together with ....the internet!
One has to take one's hat off to the Haredim, who even if they aren't particularly attracted to a woman, will still marry her out of a sense of mitzva duty and peer pressure.
I think you are a WN.
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Dbf practically speaking you are correct. But there is a religious science to this in judaism. Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write. And before you start to argue ask questions.
What does working with women have to do with rape? Are we trying to say that men can't control themselves around females in society? This pig Katzav (yimach schmo) deserves a lot more than a couple years in jail for what he did--to these women and the people of Israel.
It doesn't matter if a woman dresses like a total ho and shoves her butt in a man's face--rape is rape and deserves the death penalty. But none of the women Katzav attacked did any such thing.
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Dbf practically speaking you are correct. But there is a religious science to this in judaism. Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write. And before you start to argue ask questions.
Wonga is always making smartarse posts desecrating religious Jews, Israelis, or Talmud. That's really all we need to know about his butt.
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Dbf practically speaking you are correct. But there is a religious science to this in judaism. Before you speak and defame, read what wonga and muman have to write. And before you start to argue ask questions.
Wonga is always making smartarse posts desecrating religious Jews, Israelis, or Talmud. That's really all we need to know about his butt.
Muman is posting information important for many religious jewish men. Take the time to learn about judaism before you draw christian conclusions from them
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I said Wonga and what "Christian" conclusion did I draw?
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You are in an arguing mode. Muman is agreeing with wonga on certain things.
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Yeah, he is always supporting Wonga in his threads where he makes crazy claims.
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Yeah, he is always supporting Wonga in his threads where he makes crazy claims.
Always supporting wonga!?! Go look at the history of wongas posts and see how many of them I agree with.
I have said that there are differences of opinions between us. I do not agree with everything he says... Please do not speak for me...
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I don't mind being criticized in a reasoned manner as befits a forum. But this Fan fellow really has it ad hominem in for me in an unbecoming manner in his shallow, uninformative, off-track, distracting, disruptive, irrelevant and nasty posts.
I really think the Moderator should remove the two avatars he has of this female. With all due respect to Hollywood gentile actresses, Fan may be a fan of this woman, but one of his glyphs of her is enough: this is the Jewish Task Force forum, after all!
Apart from his link to an Xtian Serb blog, are we sure that Fan really is a non-Jew? And exactly what is he a 'doctor' in?
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Wonga, we're very sorry for your inconvenience but I'm not removing my picture sigs just because they make you want to vomit.
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As can be seen at 1.37 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2V-BAnlBJk
the Lubavitcher Rebbe is warning Katsav not to support "Land for Peace". Katsav ignored this warning, and is being theoditically punished, as is the theme of the song.
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He's being punished for being a fool too. He was offered a deal that would have gotten him no jail time, but he refused it.
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Wonga66, Dr. Brennan is the name of a female character in a television series called "Bones." The photos in DBF's avatar are of the actress Emily Deschanel, who plays the part of Dr. Brennan.
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I don't mind being criticized in a reasoned manner as befits a forum. But this Fan fellow really has it ad hominem in for me in an unbecoming manner in his shallow, uninformative, off-track, distracting, disruptive, irrelevant and nasty posts.
I really think the Moderator should remove the two avatars he has of this female. With all due respect to Hollywood gentile actresses, Fan may be a fan of this woman, but one of his glyphs of her is enough: this is the Jewish Task Force forum, after all!
Apart from his link to an Xtian Serb blog, are we sure that Fan really is a non-Jew? And exactly what is he a 'doctor' in?
I don't think an avatar of an actrees is offensive. And what's the problem with a link to a Serbian site? I have seen it and it's not a missionizing site, judging by the few posts I read. Only it named Christmas. Don't memebers in this forum, even some Jews wish Merry christmas to to Christians?
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Once I read a story about Rabbi Lazer Brody, written by a woman who interviewed him. I believe the reporter was Tamar Yonah. She knew he was an Ultra Orthodox Rabbi, and that it was a sure guarantee that he would not shake her hand, but she decided she wanted to see how such a cool headed rabbi would approach the situation if she offered a handshake nonetheless. When she extended her hand he reached forth to meet hers, but not with a handshake... he had a chocolate bar to give her as a present instead! It is socially awkward to refuse a handshake, but it for one committed to a strict Torah life cannot compromise their beliefs for a trivial thing such as social awkwardness. I have always thought that it was a fairly ingenious way to bypass social awkwardness and yet keep his religious views in tact.
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Once I read a story about Rabbi Lazer Brody, written by a woman who interviewed him. I believe the reporter was Tamar Yonah. She knew he was an Ultra Orthodox Rabbi, and that it was a sure guarantee that he would not shake her hand, but she decided she wanted to see how such a cool headed rabbi would approach the situation if she offered a handshake nonetheless. When she extended her hand he reached forth to meet hers, but not with a handshake... he had a chocolate bar to give her as a present instead! It is socially awkward to refuse a handshake, but it for one committed to a strict Torah life cannot compromise their beliefs for a trivial thing such as social awkwardness. I have always thought that it was a fairly ingenious way to bypass social awkwardness and yet keep his religious views in tact.
Screw public opinion. Social awkwardness is a HUMAN RIGHT! (except for terrorists/muslims)
Nothing wrong with insulting people by not shaking their hand.
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Normally one doesn't shake a woman's hand, unless not to do so could cause a public scandal.
When Orthodox Mayor of Hackney Agudist Joe Lobenstein went to get his OBE from the Queen of England, he received a Halachic dispensation from the London Beth Din to shake Her Majesty's hand, out of "kvod malchuss" - honour that has to be given to even a gentile ruler
(http://www.n16mag.com/issue6/images6/joe.jpg)
When he went to then British PM Margaret Thatcher and told her secretary that he would rather not shake her hand for religious reasons, the PM told him "I respect that very, very much!".
If your presented with an unknowing woman's hand in public, it's best to take it, as to suddenly spurn it can be taken as the height of insult in this society.
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On the issue of the expulsion of Gush Katif, Mosheh Katzav, has helped the side of evil
see for example http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/another-ring-leader-be-punished-destroying-gush-katif (http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/another-ring-leader-be-punished-destroying-gush-katif)
On some other vital issues, Katzav has been an enemy of the true right, but I don't want to write details unless I have a source ready to quote.
As far as did he or did he not commit the crimes he is accused of, the truth is that even after the court, said he did it, I just don't know. Because, Israels' courts based on past statements and actions can't be trusted at all in these types of matters.
In our satisfaction of having gotten rid of another enemy of Gush Katif, we shouldn't do actions, that strengthen the credibility of our main enemy, the biased courts of Israel.
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This by Steven Plaut:
Yemini on the Katsav Affair
While my skepticism about the Katsav verdict was the subject of
yesterday’s posting, I thought you would find Ben Dror Yemini’s take
on it of interest. Yemini goes much further than I do in condemning
it.
Yemini is the Deputy Editor of Maariv, Israel’s 2nd or 3rd largest
daily (depending on whether you count the freebie Israel Hayom as
one). He is also a regular columnist and blogs. He is somewhat
left-of-center, but not too far, and he is militantly Zionist. He
grew up in a religious Yemenite family. He is strongly critical of
the seditious Far Left and the “Post-Zionists” and devotes perhaps
half of his weekly weekend columns to attacking them. (Some of the
rest of the time he attacks the Israeli Right.) He admits repeatedly
in his piece that he is not a fan of Katsav and Katsav’s politics.
Yemini’s two-page Maariv article on the Katsav verdict appears
today in Maariv, Dec 31. It is too long to translate but I will
summarize it and paraphrase parts of it for you. Perhaps someone will
translate the whole thing into English – if so, I will post it.
Yemini’s column is titled “Judicial Disgrace.” He begins by
paying lip service to feminists and to their attempts to make the
public aware of sexual mistreatment of women and other grievances.
(Ok, so I TOLD you he is Left of Center!) But he then reminds his
readers of the long track record of the Israeli political and media
establishment (meaning the Left) in bashing Katsav. It began when
Katsav first beat Shimon Peres in the 2000 vote for the Presidency.
Yemini recalls how numerous leftwing journalists (including leftwing
ultras Gideon Levy and Ron Myberg) in Israel compared the Katsav vote
victory to the murder of Yitzhak Rabin. Amos Oz published at the time
a particularly offensive piece in Yediot Ahronot about the Katsav
victory, as the triumph of unenlightened religious people and
conservatives, and as the impudence of the “Second Israel” (meaning
lower-income Mizrachi and working-class Jews). Israel’s leading
comedy television program, “Eretz Nehederet,” essentially the Israeli
“Saturday Night Live” (but not aired on Saturday night) then
“Palin-ed” Katsav, turning him into their favorite butte of mocking.
Katsav was regularly vilified by the Israeli media. After all, he
is not “one of us,” not a leftwing Ashkenazi yuppie. He is a man who
rose from humble origins and poverty in a religious family of Iranian
Jews, living most of his life in an impoverished development town in
the Negev. The three justices who just found Katsav guilty (they
included two women and the radical outspoken Arab judge George Kara)
can claim all they want that they were not influenced by the media
frenzy and assault against Katsav (writes Yemini), but their denials
are not persuasive.
Yemini then reminds his readers how the whole prosecution case got
started. It has dragged on for so many years that most have
forgotten. It began when Katsav himself filed a complaint against the
woman (still nameless and referred to in the media as “A”), who had
been his Office Manager, when she had wanted to return to her previous
job and demanded back pay. She was extorting and threatening Katsav
and he filed a formal complaint. When Katsav refused he demands, Ms.
“A” hired herself a PR man and started issuing media attacks against
Katsav.
That was when the first claims of sexual harassment were made by
her. Note – they were being made by the same woman demanding to
return to employment with Katsav! The PR people then linked “A” up
with Shelly Yachimovich. The Shelly is the head of the Taliban wing
of the Labor Party. She is a far-Leftist and ultra-feminist, dreams
of restoring to Israel the Stalinist central planning system that
operated here briefly in the 1950s. The Shelly realized she had media
dynamite in “A”. That led to the most disgraceful part of the whole
story.
While “A” had never claimed she was raped, The Shelly appeared on
Channel Ten TV and announced that she (Shelly) knew that in fact “A”
had been raped by Katsav!! The leftist media then opened a blitz
against Katsav and convicted him in the press (writes Yemini).
The Shelly was then joined by Mani Mazuz, the leftist Attorney
General at the time, who pronounced Katsav guilty of rape even before
the investigation of the allegations had been conducted.
Katsav attempted to defend himself in the media. He made errors.
He bad-mouthed “A”. He attempted to recruit Yemini himself to defend
him, and met with Yemini privately to state his case. Yemini says
that, unlike Yachimovich, he does not engage in journalist trial by
newspaper. But he then writes that if he had, he would have gone
public with a Katsav-is-Innocent proclamation. The evidence and
material presented to Yemini by Katsav at the time, so Yemini writes
now, completely debunked what the rest of the media were running about
Katsav. While Yemini says he was skeptical about many of the things
Katsav claimed to him at the time, later the Prosecutor conceded that
most of those points were correct. Those confirmations came out when
the state was defending its offer of a plea bargain to Katsav against
the media onslaught that denounced the plea offer.
There were senior prosecutors in the Israeli system who opposed
indicting Katsav altogether, and who were convinced that there was not
enough evidence to make a case. The plea bargain offered Katsav, and
rejected by him, would have involved no jail time and a mere
concession by Katsav that he had sexually harassed or misbehaved. The
prosecutors themselves did not believe “A”. Their written response to
the complaints about the plea offer remains classified but is thought
to include detailed information on why the complaints about rape by
“A” were not credible and why “A” herself was not a credible
plaintiff. In any case, the whole prosecution case was full of
inconsistencies, contradictions about facts and dates, and other
problems.
None of this disproves the fact that Katsav often behaved badly
and improperly, writes Yemini. (So did Clinton but the whole world
treats Clinton as a cute if naughty juvenile whose private life is no
one’s business. – SP) It just means that the legal case, as opposed
to the media case, against Katsav was completely un-solid, writes
Yemini.
The end of the story was that Katsav, contrary to the legal advice
he was getting, indignantly rejected the plea offer. Had he accepted
it, it would long ago have been forgotten by a world that can barely
recall who Monica Lewinsky was. Had he argued in court that at his
age most men are physically incapable of carrying out a rape, he also
might have been cleared. (I assume his machismo did not let him raise
that claim!) Instead, he is now probably to be sent to hard prison
time with actual criminals. The Hebrew university leftwing sociology
professor accused by several students of raping them was never
prosecuted and keeps his university job. The Haaretz journalist who
taught at Tel Aviv University and was accused of rape was never
prosecuted.
One can only imagine what this is doing to Katsav's wife and
children. One can imagine how serious is the risk now that he could
take his own life.
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Well a case like this shows how easy it is to get into major trouble... katzav should have taken the plea bargain...As the article says he did behave badly which gave credibility to the claims of rape... It seems like this guy is left on the outside looking in which is not a good place to be... Is there any chance he can reopen his case? Looks to me like he had better get use three hots and a cot... G-d willing he will have cell mates with better self control then he had.
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THE LEGAL RAPING OF PRESIDENT KATSAV by Barry Chamish
Unlike the "experts" who say the conviction of ex-Pres. Katsav was a "victory" for Israeli justice, I actually looked at the notes from his trial. It is what is missing that stands out:
There are no rape kits.
There is no semen or DNA proof.
There are no professionals like doctors or police sex crimes experts.
There are no rape victims testifying in open court. Those prosecution witnesses testifying in closed court are not identified.
There is no physical evidence such as Katsav's hair or clothing.
There was no lie detector test of Katsav.
No victim went to the police after being raped. The police opened an investigation years after the alleged crimes allegedly took place.
All, I mean all, that convicted Katsav were the testimonies of the victims and they were full of holes, often, in fact, not believable. One "victim" claims to have been raped in Katsav's office. Having, apparently, enjoyed the experience, she was raped long after, in Katsav's hotel room.
Katsav claimed he was being framed and turned down a simple way out of jail. He would resign the Presidency after confessing to some minor charges. He rejected the deal and chose to be exonerated in court. No one guilty would take this route.
All signs point to Katsav being railroaded because the Israeli justice system is "victoriously" handpicked to be a rigged joke.
If you accept any or even, all, of my observations, then you must ask, who wanted Katsav out of the Presidency?
**
AND if you are reluctant to change your point of view, stop here and delete the rest. If you want, at least, to see the background of Katsav's railroading, keep reading even if you won't believe it.
**
Katsav was the second President in a row to resign in scandal. Recall that before the last Presidential election, the President, Ezer Weizmann, was forced to resign because of gift-taking from the Geneva millionaire, Edouard Seroussi. I noted that Shimon Peres was about the only politician who knew European shenanigans. And I added, Peres WOULD run for President. I was right about that. Where I blew it is that Peres would lose the vote to Moshe Katzav. In any SECRET vote, Peres' enemies will express themselves. A third of his Labor Party allies voted against him. And thus, Katzav became the secret and sworn enemy of Shimon Peres. He doomed himself.
But Peres first concentrated on a new challenge, becoming the Labor Party leader. In November '05, Peres lost again when Amir Peretz defeated him to become the Labor leader. Peres was again rejected by his own party. Peres now had two enemies to bring down to further his ambitions. And he got them both when the Lebanon War of '06 broke out on July 12.
Incredibly, the next day's first headlines were not of the new war, they were of rumors concerning Katsav's alleged rapes. For 33 days, Defense Minister Amir Peretz's unspeakable mishandling of the war pushed Katsav off the front page. This is not the place to discuss IDF C-O-S Dan Halutuz working with Peretz to keep infantry out of the war and thus prevent any chance of victory. Someday we'll discuss who Halutz was really taking his orders from.
On August 25, Israel agreed to ceasefire talks in Rome which led to an 85% Catholic force called UNIFIL, keeping the peace between Israel and Hizbullah. On the same day, Israel Police opened its investigation of Moshe Katsav for serious sexual crimes.
Katsav visited the Pope in 2002 and 2005. He was instructed to offer the Vatican sovereignty over all Christian sites in Israel. He refused and the Vatican and Peres were furious. One of the first acts of the replacement President, Peres, was:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/peres-wants-to-hand-over-christian-sites-in-israel-to-vatican-1.275332
President Shimon Peres is urging the government to yield control of key Christian holy sites to the Vatican, a position that is believed to be opposed by Interior Minister Eli Yishai.
The Vatican's longstanding demand that Israel transfer sovereignty of key Christian sites to the control of the Holy See has created dissension among senior officials in Jerusalem.
The Interior Ministry has vowed to retain control of the sites, calling relinquishment a "sacrifice" of Israeli sovereignty.
"This matter is under the minister's authority, and he is not prepared to sacrifice Israeli sovereignty, even if it is only symbolic," Yishai's spokesman Roi Rachmanovitch said.
Peres is pressing the government to agree to the Vatican's request that Israel surrender control of six religious sites, among them the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth; the Coenaculum on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, where Jesus is said to have held The Last Supper; the Gethsemane, which sits at the foot of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem; Mount Tabor; and the Church of the Multiplication, which hugs the shoreline of the Sea of Galilee.
Peres is lobbying Yishai to concede the sites to the Catholic Church, Army Radio reported.
Let's make Peres the 3rd President to resign in crime and shame. We've got much better evidence than that gathered against Katsav that Peres, as director of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission during the 50s, irradiated all Sephardic children in a ghastly nuclear experiment (look up the film The Ringworm Children. We know he knocked off Rehavam Zeevi
mere hours before he was to resign from the government because PM Sharon wouldn't fire him. Here is what Zeevi was planning to tell the Knesset in his resignation speech:
"But what is understood in Washington is apparently not understood
here. Prime Minister Sharon, who himself fought for many years against
Arab terrorism, is not strong or consistent enough in this fight during his
tenure as Prime Minister. In order to keep Shimon Peres in the national
unity government, he gives in to Peres' dictates and allows him to continue
talking with the top brass of the evil Palestinian Authority, which is a
terrorist headquarters in every sense.
Peres conducts diplomatic negotiations, while the Palestinians continue to
shoot at our communities and on Jews - and he is doing all this just in
order to revive the Oslo process, which brought catastrophe upon us."
And we know that Peres had a private meeting with Sharon in the Knesset, during which they shared tea, on Dec. 18, 2005. A half hour later Sharon had a stroke and was taken to the hospital by the bodyguard Yoram Rubin, the very guard who murdered Yitzhak Rabin. Here is correspondence with a top informant of mine:
> "Peres promised the pope East Jerusalem in May of 1992 and the Vatican wants to cash in now. But Sharon wasn't playing ball. In July of last year he actually banned diplomacy with the Vatican. So the Vatican tried working around him. In September they invited both Israeli chief rabbis to Rome to threaten the Jews if the holy sites of Jerusalem weren't handed over to them. In November, they hatched the Mount Zion plot, trading a Spanish church for the Last Supper room. President Katsav flew to the Vatican but Sharon still said no.
> "Finally they knew Sharon had to go. Enter the apostolic nuncio Pietro Sambi. He plotted with Peres to finish Sharon and possibly supplied the poison Sharon drank in his final meeting with Peres on Dec. 18. On thing is certain, 18 hours before, after 8 1/2 years in Jerusalem, Sambi flew out for a new assignment in Washington.
> "Once Olmert and Peres won the election, Peres flew to the Vatican taking with him a letter from Olmert to the pope. No one will say what was in the letter, but you can be sure he promised the pope 'his land' and the war drastic enough to give it to him."
And here is my informant on my radio show spilling the beans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovoI7dE3BEs
Come on now folks, let's make Peres resign the Presidency for the crime of raping Israel.
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As can be seen at 1.37 in this clip
the Lubavitcher Rebbe is warning Katsav not to support "Land for Peace". Katsav ignored this warning, and is being theoditically punished, as is the theme of the song.
:::D
Your presumptuousness knows no bounds!
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If you (Wonga) are trying to suggest Katsav got a raw deal, nothing could be further from the truth. If he had accepted a plea bargain he would have received no punishment whatsoever.
Even Arab rapists generally get at least a few months in jail.