JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: AsheDina on March 15, 2011, 03:28:50 PM
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Israel did the right thing in sending Japan humanitarian relief. But pls look at this link. AND, we are not EVER supposed to 'rejoice' in fellow mans suffering.
ZECH 12:
א מַשָּׂא דְבַר-יְהוָה, עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל: נְאֻם-יְהוָה, נֹטֶה שָׁמַיִם וְיֹסֵד אָרֶץ, וְיֹצֵר רוּחַ-אָדָם, בְּקִרְבּוֹ. 1
The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The saying of the LORD, who stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him:
ב הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי שָׂם אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם סַף-רַעַל, לְכָל-הָעַמִּים--סָבִיב; וְגַם עַל-יְהוּדָה יִהְיֶה בַמָּצוֹר, עַל-יְרוּשָׁלִָם. 2
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of staggering unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it fall to be in the siege against Jerusalem.
ג וְהָיָה בַיּוֹם-הַהוּא אָשִׂים אֶת-יְרוּשָׁלִַם אֶבֶן מַעֲמָסָה, לְכָל-הָעַמִּים--כָּל-עֹמְסֶיהָ, שָׂרוֹט יִשָּׂרֵטוּ; וְנֶאֶסְפוּ עָלֶיהָ, כֹּל גּוֹיֵי הָאָרֶץ. 3
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it.
The Japanese govt was against Israeli settlements.
http://www.watch.org/index.html?mcat=46
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Very true plus many allied servicemen were tortured and beheaded by the Japanese they also had the rape of Nanking and to this day they refuse to take responsibility..They also took women from all over Asia and made the comfort girls prostitutes for Japanese soldiers
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Very true plus many allied servicemen were tortured and beheaded by the Japanese they also had the rape of Nanking and to this day they refuse to take responsibility..They also took women from all over Asia and made the comfort girls prostitutes for Japanese soldiers
But that was then, this is now.
Japan became a very pro-American and pro-western nation.
The problem with what happened here is that Japan turned on gods holy land.
Thats what has happened
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I don't agree. Trying to find meaning when bad things happen to good people is pointless. Earthquakes happen because God's Earth is governed by physical laws he created. Tectonic plates shift to relieve pressure in the Earth. It's not Japan's support for the arabs. They live on an island that has volcanic and earthquake activity and a lot of their coastal area is at sea level.
Bad things happen to good people(Japan) because this world is imperfect. You can't control the world but you can control if you lead a good, moral life and if you do you are reward in the next world which is perfect.
If God controlled who got punishment he would annihilate the arabs.
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I don't agree. Trying to find meaning when bad things happen to good people is pointless. Earthquakes happen because G-d's Earth is governed by physical laws he created. Tectonic plates shift to relieve pressure in the Earth. It's not Japan's support for the arabs. They live on an island that has volcanic and earthquake activity and a lot of their coastal area is at sea level.
Bad things happen to good people(Japan) because this world is imperfect. You can't control the world but you can control if you lead a good, moral life and if you do you are reward in the next world which is perfect.
If G-d controlled who got punishment he would annihilate the arabs.
This is not the Jewish belief. We believe in a concept called Hashgacha Pratis, meaning Divine Providence. Only a Jewish heretic would believe that there is anything in the world which Hashem does not have absolute control over. He is in control of the winds blowing, the rain falling, the earthquakes happening, the trees falling in the forest, etc...
I believe with absolute faith that Hashem has absolute power over every event in his world..
Maybe the arabs are a test for the Jewish people... Maybe they will not be rewarded in the world to come... There are many good reasons why Hashem allows evil to exist in this world..
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80720/jewish/Led-By-G-ds-Hand.htm
Throughout the generations, the Sages of Judaism have endeavored to comprehend and explain the workings of the cosmic patterns of Hashgacha Pratis. Commonly translated as "Divine Providence," this describes the way in which every entity and action in this world is guided to its ultimate purpose by G-d's wisdom and choice.
With the revelation of the teachings of Chassidut by the Baal Shem Tov, unique insights penetrated many areas of Jewish thought. Particularly, with regard to Hashgacha Pratis, the Baal Shem Tov's approach enriched our understanding of these Divine patterns of causation and destiny.
From this book:
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As explained by our master, the Baal Shem Tov, not only are all the particular activities of the created beings [controlled by] Divine providence. This providence is the life-energy of the created being and maintains its existence. Moreover, every particular movement of an individual created being has a connection to the intent of the creation as a whole…. A slight movement of one blade of grass fulfills G-d’s intent for the creation as a whole.
Note a: The statements concerning Divine providence in Tanya, Shaar HaYichud VehaEmunah, ch. 2, and Iggeres HaKodesh, Epistle 25, involve the general concept of Divine providence. For there are people who deny it and even its possibility despite the fact that they admit that the entire creation was brought into being ex nihilo by G-d’s word, as apparent from [the Alter Rebbe’s] rebuttal of their position. In another source, their position is explained. They maintain that the creation was brought into being through a downward cause-and-effect directed chain of sequences. In such a situation, the effect [i.e., the lower level,] bring about changes in the cause [the higher level]. Therefore, according to their conception, it is impossible for G-d to invest Himself and manifest His providence in the lowly worlds, for that would be lowering Himself (Likkutei Torah, the second maamar entitled Shishim Heimah, sec. 2). And doing so would bring about multiplicity within Him [as it were] (Torah Or, the maamar entitled Eirda Na). Therefore they maintain that “G-d abandoned the earth,”1 and He is merely “the G-d of gods.”2 For this same reason, they deny the possibility of miracles (Torah Or, the maamar entitled ViEileh Shmos).
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I think to look for reasons why something like an earthquake would happen to Japan is human arrogance at its worst. [censored] happens and you are a human being can't control it.
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I think to look for reasons why something like an earthquake would happen to Japan is human arrogance at its worst. drek happens and you are a human being can't control it.
I agree, that is a different issue...
What happens is that the 'decree' which was passed for Japan was meted out on all who live or visited there... This is the same with every evil decree, even against the Jewish people themselves..
Sometimes the righteous are destroyed along with the wicked..
We are celebrating Purim this weekend... The evil decree which Haman instigated ultimately was a decree from Hashem himself to destroy the Jewish people. Only through teshuva and prayer did the Jews merit to be redeemed.
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Remnant of what?
We rejoiced over the egyptians suffering because they oppressed us, and every day in the morning prayers we recite the song that the Jews spontaneously sang in praise of Hashem for drowning the egyptians and saving us just as its lyrics are written in the Torah.
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This is not the Jewish belief. We believe in a concept called Hashgacha Pratis, meaning Divine Providence. Only a Jewish heretic would believe that there is anything in the world which Hashem does not have absolute control over. He is in control of the winds blowing, the rain falling, the earthquakes happening, the trees falling in the forest, etc...
That's not true because the Rambam argued against your view in the Moreh Nevukhim. I am sure you don't consider him to be a Jewish heretic. I saw with my own eyes where he negates the view that the leaf blowing in the wind is God's will, saying that that is not the proper Jewish hashkafa (however this did come to be the view of the chassidim and notably rav tzadok hakohen who elaborates this and extends its logic to virtually negate free will almost entirely). The Rambam limits hashgaha pratit to only those who have a commensurate level of intellect (ie humans) - the more rational thought, the more hashgaha God exerts on that group commensurate with the intelligence. So rocks do not get hashgaha pratit.
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Remnant of what?
We rejoiced over the egyptians suffering because they oppressed us, and every day in the morning prayers we recite the song that the Jews spontaneously sang in praise of Hashem for drowning the egyptians and saving us just as its lyrics are written in the Torah.
Yes, that was permitted, but there is a lot written that says we should not rejoice over our enemies downfall.. Even the angels protested when we sang at the shore of the Yam Suf.
I have quoted this, from Pirkie avos, before... It was written by the Sage who added the curse to the Amidah against the heretics...
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/ch4-24.html
What We Think about Sinners
Chapter 4, Mishna 24
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld
"Shmuel (Sh-moo-ail) the Small said, 'At your enemy's fall do not rejoice, and when he stumbles let your heart not be joyous, lest the L-rd see and be displeased and turn back His anger from him [to you]' (Proverbs 24:17-18)."
This week's mishna tells us that we must not gloat over the downfall of our enemy, even if such a downfall was eminently deserved. When G-d metes out justice to the wicked, we should find it unsettling. G-d's power has been unleashed in this world; am I so deserving that it will not be directed at me?
The commentator Rabbeinu Yonah adds that there *is* a certain sense of elation we may feel. G-d's honor has been restored. Wickedness does not last forever. G-d ultimately sees to it that His enemies are punished. If He does so in this world, just a small amount of His glory has been revealed to mankind. And for that, we may rejoice.
We should not, however, rejoice over the suffering itself our enemy endures. It may be necessary and it may be 100% *right*, but it is not a source of joy. The Talmud states that when the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, the angels wanted to sing their daily song of praise to G-d, and G-d quieted them: "The creations of My hands are drowning in the sea, and you are singing song?!" (Megillah 10b). One of the most wicked and immoral nations history has produced was at last experiencing its well-deserved fate, yet G-d Himself, so to speak, experienced no pleasure in the process.
Yet at the same time the angels were silenced, Moses and Miriam led the Jewish nation in our most glorious Song of the Sea. Were we so much better? If the angels could not sing, how could we?
The answer is that we sang not as a form of gloating over our enemies, but because we had witnessed G-d's salvation. And it was more than just a salvation. We caught a glimpse -- albeit a fleeting one -- of G-d's Divine guiding Hand. In a moment of inspiration, we were able to grasp the Big Picture -- to discern G-d's slow but directed guiding Hand throughout our history. Everything had come to a head. Jewish history had unfolded before our eyes. We realized that far beyond our puny comprehension G-d had been orchestrating events all along. Hundreds of years of exile and suffering had been purposeful and a part of G-d's master plan. We recognized that G-d had been purifying us in the crucible of Egypt, slowly molding us into His nation, and preparing us for this grand and glorious moment when we would see our Creator face to face.
Singing because people, even wicked people, are drowning we could never do. Singing because G-d had revealed Himself to His nation and to the world -- such a song would reverberate throughout all the generations.
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That's not true because the Rambam argued against your view in the Moreh Nevukhim. I am sure you don't consider him to be a Jewish heretic. I saw with my own eyes where he negates the view that the leaf blowing in the wind is G-d's will, saying that that is not the proper Jewish hashkafa (however this did come to be the view of the chassidim and notably rav tzadok hakohen who elaborates this and extends its logic to virtually negate free will almost entirely). The Rambam limits hashgaha pratit to only those who have a commensurate level of intellect (ie humans) - the more rational thought, the more hashgaha G-d exerts on that group commensurate with the intelligence. So rocks do not get hashgaha pratit.
Rambams own 13 principles says that Hashem is Omnipotent and Omniscient... There is nothing which he is not able to do. Although I agree that Hashgacha is only limited to humans, all forces of nature are under the control of Hashem.
I believe that there is a belief that Hasgacha on non-humans occur as a group or species...
From that Book I quoted above:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80723/jewish/Brief-on-Hashgachah-Pratis.htm
With regard to the manner in which His providence is manifest… as explained in the texts of Kabbalah, and particularly, in the text Ailimah, there are three categories of existence in this world which do not receive reward or punishment: animals, plants, and inanimate objects…. They are watched over by angels appointed over… each of the species… to draw down influence to each of the species as a whole. However, for there to be specific providence to determine whether a particular ox will live or die… the archangels do not have the power to watch over such matters….
There is no providence over a particular animal, and how much more so, not over a particular plant or inanimate object. For the intent in their [existence] can be achieved when considering the species as a whole. There is no need for His providence to be manifest on the particular members of the species. On the contrary, whatever happens to the particular members of the species is absolute coincidence and is not decreed by G-d at all, unless it somehow concerns man….
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Yes, that was permitted, but there is a lot written that says we should not rejoice over our enemies downfall.. Even the angels protested when we sang at the shore of the Yam Suf.
The angels protested? HUH?
The midrash says that the angels rejoiced themselves and were rebuked by Hashem. WE HUMANS were NOT rebuked by Hashem for our massive celebration. The Torah says we sang and danced, the women played cymbals and sang together with miriam and danced with each other. There is no amount of sophistry that can change the basic facts that we do celebrate the death of the wicked especially our national enemies.
The injunction not to rejoice "over our enemy's downfall" refers to personal grudges with other Jews (or perhaps other people in general). That means about something petty like an argument or a dispute between you and something bad happens to him and you rejoice because you view him as an enemy who offended you (or whatever). It certainly does not refer to a situation such as our nazi enemies being destroyed.
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Rambams own 13 principles says that Hashem is Omnipotent and Omniscient...
So what? This doesn't contradict that, and obviously since Rambam wrote them both, he doesn't find it a contradiction at all (which it isn't). Rambam believed that Hashem's hashgaha on the world was only GRANTED commensurate with intelligence and rational thought.
THAT is a fact. That others think differently, especially hassidim, is also a fact, but don't call the opposing view heretical!
There is nothing which he is not able to do. Although I agree that Hashgacha is only limited to humans, all forces of nature are under the control of Hashem.
You said two different things at the same time. Rambam did NOT believe that forces of nature were always under control of Hashem, an example he gives is the leaf blowing in the wind if I remember correctly, and he says that is simply not an expression of God's will. You of course don't have to agree and can think differently, just please don't act so high-and-mighty that those who disagree with you are heretics.
I personally tend toward the view of the Rambam because I think it's the most sensible.
I believe that there is a belief that Hasgacha on non-humans occur as a group or species...
From that Book I quoted above:
There are beliefs in many things, but my point was what Rambam believed, and how it contradicted directly what you claimed. I am of course not saying you are forced to think a certain way, but you should rethink your insistence that others are, that's all.
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The angels protested? HUH?
The midrash says that the angels rejoiced themselves and were rebuked by Hashem. WE HUMANS were NOT rebuked by Hashem for our massive celebration. The Torah says we sang and danced, the women played cymbals and sang together with miriam and danced with each other. There is no amount of sophistry that can change the basic facts that we do celebrate the death of the wicked especially our national enemies.
The injunction not to rejoice "over our enemy's downfall" refers to personal grudges with other Jews (or perhaps other people in general). That means about something petty like an argument or a dispute between you and something bad happens to him and you rejoice because you view him as an enemy who offended you (or whatever). It certainly does not refer to a situation such as our nazi enemies being destroyed.
I think you are missing the point of the Pirkie Avot which I posted above. It is not about people we have a squible with, it is including our enemies. The only time we are to rejoice in their downfall is because it reveals Hashems awesome nature to the world... Aside from that we should not rejoice...
I am also surprised you did not hear about the angels who protested when Hashem drowned the Egyptians. It is a well known story that the angels said "These worship Idols and those worship idols" saying that the Jews were not very different from the Egyptians who were drowned in the sea...
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/bamidbar65.htm
Consequently, when G-d killed all the firstborn in Egypt, they were not worthy of being saved from the widespread plague (as the Angel of Egypt would later argue at the Yam-Suf - 'These worshipped idols and these worshipped idols! Why does the one merit salvation more than the other?')
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ciIj-79glNAJ:www.puretorah.com/resources/Peninim%2520Booklet%2520-%2520Parshat%2520Bo.pdf+this+one+worships+idols+that+one+worships+idols+angels+yam+suf&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESicItNlt09rJFSfyRnDkmxZeKc7vFZ-KXBvj7sG2u_J9Sw252ysaSGy2IZUpQnT6Q1ceuXzNBXvAybOESoyJaR7gSqLLj4VgDNS7s-tqcV0ho4Nzd6UG1v3ZVuatKrNoX-RAk9L&sig=AHIEtbRM1tn9jJJVBsZA9RmHzy9A8fPCdQ&pli=1
Klal Yisrael’s deficient level of spirituality became apparent during the makas bechoros, when the firstborns of the Egyptians were killed. The Baal Haggadah tells us that it was Hashem Who passed through Egypt on that fateful night. Only Hashem--not an angel--could have discerned between Egyptian and Jew. The realm of distinction between Egyptian and Jew had narrowed so much, as a result of the Jew’s spiritual degeneration that an angel would not have been able to distinguish between the two.
We find that at the Yam Suf, the angels complained to Hashem. "Why do You spare the Jews while the Egyptians are drowning? These are idol worshippers, and those are idol worshippers! What advantage do the Jews have over the Egyptians? They are both sinners."
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BTW, what Rabbi Rosenfeld wrote is a somewhat interesting explanation, but please bear in mind that it quite possibly has little or nothing to do with what Shmuel the Small said or meant! He, Rabbi Rosenfeld, has created that explanation of the sources and I don't really find it inescapable or particularly compelling way of explaining Shmuel the Small's statements or reconciling them. It can be one way of viewing it, but that is in no way "the gospel" which you sort of present it as Muman by quoting it and suggesting it's authoritative view of Judaism no one can stray from!
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BTW, what Rabbi Rosenfeld wrote is a somewhat interesting explanation, but please bear in mind that it quite possibly has little or nothing to do with what Shmuel the Small said or meant! He, Rabbi Rosenfeld, has created that explanation of the sources and I don't really find it inescapable or particularly compelling way of explaining Shmuel the Small's statements or reconciling them. It can be one way of viewing it, but that is in no way "the gospel" which you sort of present it as Muman by quoting it and suggesting it's authoritative view of Judaism no one can stray from!
I simply say that this is what I have learned. I am trying to apply it to what we are talking about. Do not think that what I am saying is the 'gospel' of Jewish belief. It is simply application of things I have learned.
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I think you are missing the point of the Pirkie Avot which I posted above. It is not about people we have a squible with, it is including our enemies.
No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism. On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles! The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible. Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now! (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - God forbid.)
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BTW, some of the evidence I remember off the top of my head - That verse in Mishlay (Proverbs) is in the singular form - It says Your enemy in the singular and your heart in the singular.
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So you don't like Rabbi Rosenfields interpretation? There are more Rabbis who say the same thing:
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html
The Meshech Chochma (Shemos 12:16) answers as follows: "Purim is not celebrated on the anniversary of the victory against our enemies. Am Yisroel does not rejoice over the downfall and death of its foes. We celebrate Pesach because we were saved, not because our enemies perished, and we rejoice and read the Megillah on the day that we rested, the day after the war, when no one died, but we were saved.
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/beshalach64.htm
Summary
As the Egyptians drown, the angels are reprimanded for singing. All humans are created in the image of G'd. Abraham was the great lover of all people. The Jewish soldier kills if necessary but is distressed by killing. Jews do not rejoice when their enemy falls.
This week's Torah attitude is that since all humans are created in the image of G'd, we do not take pleasure when others fall, even if they are enemies who tried to kill us.
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These words were based on a talk given by Rabbi Avraham Kahn, the Rosh Yeshiva and Founder of Yeshivas Keser Torah in Toronto.
http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/tehillim.asp?tDate=3/7/2011
Chapter 7
Do not rejoice if God causes your enemy to suffer—just as the suffering of the righteous is not pleasant. David, therefore, defends himself intensely before God, maintaining that he did not actively harm Saul. In fact, Saul precipitated his own harm, while David’s intentions were only for the good.
I will add that I fully understand that we must curse the heretic... It is very important to remember that the sage who instituted this curse is also Shmuel HaKatan...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/948893/jewish/Why-Pray-for-the-Destruction-of-our-Enemies.htm
Examining Shmuel Hakatan's other sayings (there aren't that many), we find a character that appears in striking contrast to the Shmuel Hakatan who composed a prayer against the heretics. In Ethics of the Fathers we read:
Shmuel Hakatan would say: "When your enemy falls, do not rejoice; when he stumbles, let your heart not be gladdened. Lest G‑d see, and it will be displeasing in His eyes, and He will turn His wrath from him to you."8
Shmuel Hakatan is simply quoting the Book of Proverbs,9 yet the Mishnah cites this in his name. Why? Because this was a statement that typified him; something that would be continually not just on his lips but reflected in his actions. Never mind not praying for the punishment of the wicked, Shmuel Hakatan is of the opinion that even when they are already punished we should not rejoice. Hardly the one you would expect to rise to the occasion of formulating a prayer for the wicked to be punished!
All this leads us to the conclusion that there must be different types of sinners. For some we are permitted to pray that they be punished, while for others we are not.
Again we quote the Ethics:
One who causes the community to be meritorious, no sin will come by his hand. One who causes the community to sin is not given the opportunity to repent.10
Commentaries11 explain that this means to say that Heaven does not help such an individual repent. The doors of repentance are never locked, but for some people, they may require a lot of pounding before they open.
This is the sort of person to whom the blessing against the heretics in the Amidah refers. Yes, we would all prefer to pray that this person repent rather than be punished. Furthermore, even if we could not pray for him to repent for whatever reason, we could just leave him alone and out of our prayers altogether—as long as his actions are not affecting anyone else. Here is an instance, however, where we are simply left no choice. We are told that Heaven does not help him to repent, so of what use is it to pray for him? Yet neither do we have the option to leave him be while he causes others to sin, informing upon us to the authorities and endangering the entire nation physically and spiritually.
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/beshalach68.htm
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No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism. On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles! The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible. Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now! (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)
As I pointed it, it is not just one Rabbi who says this... Read my last post...
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No, I think what is more likely, is that I clearly disagree with your rabbi's EXPLANATION of Pirkei Avot and his own creative interpretation which flatly contradicts basic facts about Torah and Judaism. On those grounds I reject his explanation and I have listened to Rabbi Bar Hayim give a shiur on this topic and his arguments were sound - the warning against rejoicing over your enemy indeed has to do with personal enemies and grudges and petty squabbles! The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible. Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now! (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)
What I said is that rejoicing because Hashems glory is revealed is certainly permitted. But to rejoice because you think you were victorious just because you are more capable or more cunning is not permitted {at least according to my understanding}...
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Yes Muman, there is no shortage of PC rabbis, yet it doesn't make their position any stronger, even if 10 million of them shout it. And certainly it doesn't exclude other MORE PLAUSIBLE explanations!
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As I pointed it, it is not just one Rabbi who says this... Read my last post...
I believe we don't say the full Hallel on Pesach...
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html
The Hallel of Purim, Pesach, and the Final Redemption
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In the period between Purim and Pesach, it is instinctive to analyze a passage in the Talmud which deals with both holidays. The Gemara says in Megillah (14a), "If shira was said when we were delivered from slavery to freedom at yetzias mitzrayim, then when we are delivered from death to life we must certainly say shira". This is the source for the mitzvah of reading the megillah on Purim, and would obligate us to say Hallel on Purim if not for three technical reasons that the Gemara lists.
Rashi adds that Hallel is shira and the shira of yetzias mitzrayim is Shiras Hayam. This means that Shiras Hayam teaches a halacha for all generations, i.e., if Am Yisroel is delivered from a threat to its life, there is an obligation to say Hallel.
An obvious question can be raised. The Shiras Hayam describes supernatural miracles. But on Purim, no laws of nature were broken. How then can the Gemara derive the obligations of Purim from yetzias mitzrayim? Perhaps only miracles which break natural law obligate us to say shira, but not hidden miracles like those of Purim. In addition, the Gemara in Megillah 10b asks a second question. The angels wanted to say shira the night that the miracle of kriyas yam suf occurred, but Hashem said, "My creatures are drowning in the sea, and you want to say shira?!" Now, if the angels were told not to say shira because the Egyptians were drowning, then why do we say shira? And why do we read the Megillah on Purim?
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We do not recite the full Hallel on the seventh day of Pesach. The Gemara in Erchin (10b) explains that Pesach differs from Sukkos, when Hallelis said every day, because on Pesach the same Musaf offering is brought each day, whereas on Sukkos each day has a different Musaf. However, the Medrash says that Pesach differs because on the seventh day we cannot say full Hallel, since the Egyptians drowned. It would be wrong to recite full Hallel on Chol Hamoed and not on the seventh day which is Yom Tov, so it is omitted on all days after the first.
The Medrash seems to contradict the Gemara, as it gives a different reason as to why we do not say full Hallel. Many answer as follows: the Gemara explains why Pesach’s status as a Yom Tov does not obligate us to say Hallel even on the seventh day. The reason is that Pesach is one long Yom Tov, and therefore does not require a new recitation of the full Hallel each and every day, whereas Sukkos is eight different Yomim Tovim, each of which warrants a recitation of the full Hallel. The fact that the Musaf is identical all seven days of Pesach but changes each day of Sukkos indicates this distinction.
The Medrash relates to a different issue: why we do not say Hallel because of the miracles of Kriyas Yam Suf. The reason is that when Hashem’s creatures drown in the sea, we should not say shira.
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The only thing a Jew should rejoice is that Hashem is revealed through our service. Otherwise we will become more arrogant and believe that we are saved because of our own merits. Over and over again Torah warns that we should not believe that we should not become arrogant in this respect.
The only thing I rejoice is that Hashem is the master of the world, and his glory will be revealed through the Jewish people.
http://shemayisrael.co.il/pipermail/daf-insights_shemayisrael.co.il/2004-August/000095.html
2) RECITING HALLEL ON THE LAST DAYS OF PESACH
QUESTION: The Gemara (end of 10a) asks why we recite Hallel only on the first day of Pesach, while we recite Hallel on *all* of the days of Sukos. The Gemara answers that each day of Sukos has a different Korban, and
therefore each day is considered to be a separate Yom Tov in some respect and warrants the recitation of Hallel. The days of Pesach, in contrast, all have the same Korbanos, and thus Hallel is recited only on the first day.
The TAZ (OC 490:3) offers a different reason based on the Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni, end of Mishlei 2:960; Pesikta d'Rav Kahana, end of #29). The Midrash relates that the angels wanted to sing in joy at Keri'as Yam Suf when the Jews were saved and the Egyptians drowned. Hashem said to them, "The works of My hands are drowning in the sea and you wish to recite Shirah?!" Therefore, we do not recite Shirah (Hallel) during the rest of Pesach. (See Insights to Megilah 10:2.)
Why does the Midrash give a different reason than that of the Gemara?
ANSWER: There are two basic reasons for reciting Hallel. First, we recite Hallel on festival days in order to praise Hashem as we celebrate His festival (see RAMBAN, Shoresh 1, who understands that reciting Hallel is part of the Mitzvah of Simchas Yom Tov). Second, we recite Hallel in order to commemorate a miraculous salvation from danger.
The Gemara here is asking why we do not recite Hallel on all of the days of Pesach because of the first reason mentioned above -- since each day is a Mo'ed, and part of the Yom Tov joy is to recite Hallel. The Gemara answers that the ensuing days of Pesach are not considered independent Mo'adim, as we see from the fact that each day does not have its own unique Korban (as does each day of Sukos). The Midrash, however, is addressing a different question -- why do we not recite Hallel on the last day of Pesach because of the miraculous salvation (Keri'as Yam Suf) that occurred on that day (the second reason mentioned above)? The Midrash answers that since some of Hashem's creations were destroyed by this miracle, it is not fitting to recite Hallel to commemorate such a salvation.
/quote]
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I am not arguing with you trying to make you believe what I believe... But I am just presenting the information which supports the reason I feel the way I do...
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In the pursuit of truth I will also post a link to an opposing opinion... This piece says that there are times we should rejoice in the downfall of the enemy:
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/avot/10avot.htm
II. What Does Shemuel Add?
Shemuel's statement is unique among all the other mishnayot in Pirkei Avot in that he merely cites a pasuk from Mishlei, without adding any explanation or commentary. Evidently, he felt that the theme contained in the pasuk was so crucial that it bore constant reiteration, and he would therefore cite this proverb often. The pasuk in Mishlei (24:17-18) reads: "When your enemy falters do not rejoice (bi-nfol oivekha al tismach), and when he stumbles do not feel glee (u-ve-koshlo al yagel libekha), lest Hashem notice and disapprove (pen yireh Hashem ve-ra be-einav), and avert His anger from him (ve-heishiv mei-alav apo)." This pasuk, which warns against triumphant celebration at our enemies' demise, raises numerous moral and theological questions. Perhaps the most famous application of this theme occurs on Pesach, when we refrain from reciting full hallel on the seventh day (and, by extension, during Chol Ha-mo'ed) since the Egyptians drowned on that day. As the gemara in Sanhedrin (39b) narrates, Hashem told the angels who wished to recite hallel at the time of keri'at Yam Suf, "My creatures are drowning at sea, and you will recite hallel to me?" Based on this gemara, the Shulchan Arukh (O.C. 490) rules that only half-hallel is recited after the first day of Pesach. (Recently, with the welcome death of Yasser Arafat - a murderer responsible for the brutal death of thousands of innocent Jews - this question resurfaced.)
It should be noted that although this is the prevalent explanation for the half-hallel recitation on Pesach, a dissenting opinion applies an alternate reason. The gemara in Arakhin (10a) claims that the last six days of Pesach warrant only half-hallel because they all feature the same musaf offering. Unlike Sukkot, during which the korbanot differ from day to day, Pesach requires the exact same protocol each and every day. This uniformity of korbanot reflects a homogeny which renders these days unworthy of complete hallel. By taking this approach, we may 'ignore' the rationale presented in Sanhedrin, and perhaps, theoretically, warrant hallel recitation when the evil perish. Indeed, the Shulchan Arukh cites Sanhedrin's basis, but many poskim cite the dissenting logic of the gemara in Arakhin.
III. Three Qualifications
The verse in Mishlei notwithstanding, several other sources do, in fact, call for rejoicing at the death of enemies, suggesting that the admonition against rejoicing at an enemy's downfall might not apply universally.
Firstly, the gemara in Masekhet Megilla (16a) recounts a discussion between Mordekhai and Haman as the latter was bending to hoist the former onto the horse to begin the parade through the streets of Shushan. As Mordekhai ascended onto Haman's back, he kicked him, to which Haman responded, "Doesn't your Torah prohibit such triumphantism,?" and cited the pasuk in Mishlei as proof. Mordekhai replied that although joy is forbidden at the ruin of JEWISH foes, great elation may be sensed (and expressed) at the failure of non-Jewish enemies. Of course, Mordekhai's response calls into question the discussion of the gemara in Sanhedrin. Since the Egyptians were not Jewish, their downfall should have invited unmitigated celebration in the same manner that Haman's did. Why, then, do we refrain from a complete hallel recitation on Pesach?
This question may be resolved in light of the continuation of that very same gemara in Sanhedrin, where the gemara cites a different pasuk from Mishlei (11:10): "when evildoers are destroyed, there is joy" ("ba-avod resha'im rina"). After noting the seeming contradiction between the two pesukim, the gemara ultimately explains that Hashem Himself is not joyful (and hallel is therefore not recited), but others (the righteous) may indeed rejoice. A second criterion thus emerges that even pertaining to non-Jewish criminals, Hashem does not exult, but the 'victims' of the particular evil may rejoice, though without reciting hallel to Hashem. Hence, Mordekhai was justified in punting Haman, but would not be authorized to recite hallel.
Rabbenu Yona, in his commentary to Avot, raises yet a third factor. Triumphing at others' sorrow – expressing any form of joy over the fall of a Jewish enemy, or reciting hallel at the decline of a gentile enemy – is morally odious and halkhically forbidden. However, celebrating Hashem's victory (the death of evil, the cessation of chillul Hashem) is not only permissible, but also expected. After all – as the gemara asserts in Megilla (14a) – reading the Megilla is actually a form of hallel (which is one reason why actual hallel is not recited on Purim). The angels were not permitted to recite hallel because THEIR joy seemed to be indulging in the suffering of the Egyptians. Invulnerable to their persecution, and inactive in the historical process, they could not sense the desecration of Hashem's Name which this miracle relieved. By contrast, human beings sense Hashem's glorification when history is altered and the wicked are destroyed, and are therefore permitted to recite hallel.
Evidence to Rabbenu Yona's theory may be drawn from the gemara in Bava Batra, which lists the seventh of Kislev as one of 'national holidays' recorded in Megillat Ta'anit (a list of minor festivals established to commemorate certain momentous events). This was the day on which King Herod, a violent enemy of the Sages, passed away, an event worthy of commemoration through a national holiday. This holiday witnessed the sensation and national expression of joy at the death of a Jewish criminal. Evidently, it is Rabbenu Yona's exemption – allowing the celebration of kiddush Hashem – that accounts for this allowance.
Of course, Rabbenu Yona's distinction begs the question of why we do not recite full hallel on the seventh day of Pesach to celebrate Hashem's magnificence. Perhaps Chazal feared that we would indulge too deeply in the cataclysmic suffering of the Egyptians, and not sufficiently celebrate Hashem's glory.
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I believe we don't say the full Hallel on Pesach...
http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html
LOL! Like the saying, you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! The point is that we still do indeed say Hallel!
Like I said before:
The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible. Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now! (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)
Of course, anyone can say anything, but I'm referring to the most someone can say in terms of still being believable.
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LOL! Like the saying, you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! The point is that we still do indeed say Hallel!
Like I said before:
The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible. Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now! (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)
Of course, anyone can say anything, but I'm referring to the most someone can say in terms of still being believable.
I surely daven that our enemies will be dealt with with utter destruction. There is nothing wrong with that. Whether I will celebrate when they are being destroyed will be seen. If it is obvious {as the ground would swallow all arabs in one day} that Hashems hand was smiting the enemy, then I will celebrate... As it stands according to my understanding that we should rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed {as we did at the Yam Suf}.
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בס''ד
Exodus 15:1-18 - translation:
1. Then sang Moses and the people of Israel this song to the L-rd, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider has He thrown into the sea.
2. The L-rd is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation; He is my G-d, and I will praise Him; my father’s G-d, and I will exalt Him.
3. The L-rd is a man of war; the L-rd is His name.
4. Pharaoh’s chariots and his army has He thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
5. The depths have covered them; they sank to the bottom as a stone.
6. Your right hand, O L-rd, is glorious in power; Your right hand, O L-rd, has dashed in pieces the enemy.
7. And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown those that rose up against You; You sent forth Your anger, which consumed them as stubble.
8. And with the blast of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as a heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the plunder; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10. You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11. Who is like You, O L-rd, among the gods? who is like You, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12. You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13. You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation.
14. The people shall hear, and be afraid; sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.
15. Then the chiefs of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of Your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till Your people pass over, O L-rd, till the people pass over, whom You have purchased.
17. You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the place, O L-rd, which You have made for You to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O L-rd, which Your hands have established.
18. The L-rd shall reign forever and ever.
Moses and the entire Jewish people joyfully sang this song after seeing the dead bodies of the Egyptian army floating on the waters of the Red Sea.
Any "rabbi" who says this is not rejoicing over the deaths of our enemies is a liar.
This fervent celebration of our enemies' complete annihilation is also part of our daily prayers.
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בס''ד
Exodus 15:1-18 - translation:
1. Then sang Moses and the people of Israel this song to the L-rd, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider has He thrown into the sea.
2. The L-rd is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation; He is my G-d, and I will praise Him; my father’s G-d, and I will exalt Him.
3. The L-rd is a man of war; the L-rd is His name.
4. Pharaoh’s chariots and his army has He thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
5. The depths have covered them; they sank to the bottom as a stone.
6. Your right hand, O L-rd, is glorious in power; Your right hand, O L-rd, has dashed in pieces the enemy.
7. And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown those that rose up against You; You sent forth Your anger, which consumed them as stubble.
8. And with the blast of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as a heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the plunder; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10. You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11. Who is like you, O L-rd, among the gods? who is like you, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12. You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13. You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation.
14. The people shall hear, and be afraid; sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.
15. Then the chiefs of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of Your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till Your people pass over, O L-rd, till the people pass over, whom You have purchased.
17. You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the place, O L-rd, which You have made for You to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O L-rd, which Your hands have established.
18. The L-rd shall reign forever and ever.
Moses and the entire Jewish people joyfully sang this song after seeing the dead bodies of the Egyptian army floating on the waters of the Red Sea.
Any "rabbi" who says this is not rejoicing over the deaths of our enemies is a liar.
This fervent celebration of our enemies' complete annihilation is also part of our daily prayers.
Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged? I am the 1st one to post the Shir at the sea {as I have done every year here}. It is a glorious revelation of Hashem and the Jews were able to see Hashems hand clearly.
The issue is that there are several pasuks, including the pasuk by Shmuel HaKatan {who is the sage who instituted the prayer in the Amidah against the heretics to which you refer} which clearly says that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies.
See my posting from last month @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,52355.0.html & http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,36389.0.html
Are you saying that we should disregard Pirkie Avot and Mishlei {from which Shmuel HaKatan derived his saying}? If not could you please explain your position in light of the sages?
Also I don't know of any Rabbi who I quoted who said that it was wrong to rejoice at the sea... It is clear from the Talmud and all sources that this rejoicing was certainly meritorious. The point I was making is that it is only in situations where Hashems glory is revealed that we should rejoice.... The sages have a variety of opinions whether other times it is permitted.
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http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2006-01-19.php
See this discussion concerning the curse in the Amidah {written by Shmuel HaKatan}...
World of Our Sages: Prayer as strongbox
By Rabbi Levi Cooper
Jan. 19, 2006
Is the identity of the authors of our supplications and their intentions of any significance when we stand in prayer before the Almighty? Perhaps the substance of our prayers is solely a function of the meaning we lend to the words we say? The Talmud appears to deem authorship important as it reports that Shimon HaPekuli arranged the order of 18 blessings that give the amida its synonomous title - the shemoneh esrei (the 18) (B. Berakhot 28b).
Following this act, the leader of rabbinic Jewry, Rabban Gamliel of Yavneh (Eretz Yisrael, first-second centuries) turned to his colleagues: "Is there anyone who knows how to compile birkat haminim (the benediction against heretics)?" .... Rabbinic leadership decided that there was no place in Jewish society for such heretics and hence sought to denounce them in the amida.
The Talmud relates: Shmuel HaKatan (the lesser) arose and authored this, the nineteenth blessing of the amida. What was the challenge in composing this portion of the amida, and what expertise was needed to author this benediction?
If we contrast the new addition with the rest of the amida, we see that the entire amida is filled with kindness and love, while the benediction censuring the heretics is the only section of the amida that contains destructive sentiments. Indeed, it is entirely natural that one who tries to uproot or dismember the faith of others will incur the wrath of those who hold those beliefs to be essential and sacred. A benediction against heretics, therefore, should have been the easiest portion to compose, as many people would have passionately despised these agitators.
Though such an angry reaction is to be expected, the first chief rabbi of the Land of Israel, Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak HaKohen Kook (1865-1935) writes that a benediction reverberating with negativity should only be composed by one who is pure of heart. Such a person will not blend personal feelings of hate into the canonized texts of the liturgy. Such an untainted person would author the benediction with wholesome motives, focusing only on the Divine plan.
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A telltale aphorism of Shmuel HaKatan is found in the mishnaic tractate Avot (4:19): "Shmuel HaKatan says - 'When your enemy falls, do not exult, and when he trips, your heart should not rejoice. Lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and avert His wrath from upon him.' (Proverbs 24:17-18)." This adage of Shmuel HaKatan is indeed strange, for he merely quotes a verse without adding any additional insight. Yet herein lies the key to understanding the many aphorisms in Avot. The dicta quoted are clearly not the only words of the sage; we already know that Shmuel HaKatan's contribution goes beyond this quote. Rather, the maxims represent sayings that each sage would harp upon, urging his community to carefully consider.
In the case of Shmuel HaKatan, he would exhort his followers to focus on this verse and its implications. Though the other might be your adversary, the downfall of this enemy is not a cause for celebration. It is this banner of Shmuel HaKatan that qualified him to compose birkat haminim.
Why is the intent of the author important? When we pray, we invest the words with meaning from our own meditative thoughts. The pure focus of the author - in this case Shmuel HaKatan - does not appear to be bound to the words of the liturgy. This idea might lead us to wonder whether those of us who are not pure of heart should even be reciting this portion of the amida.
Here, too, Rabbi Kook provides us with direction. He writes that we recite the words of the liturgy by right of the godly authors. Though we may be distant from these people of distinguished spirit, we lean on their lofty intent when we recite the prayers. The words of our prayers are umbilically connected to the intentions of the sages who authored those words.
Interestingly, the Hebrew word for 'word' in talmudic parlance is teiva (pl. teivot). Teiva is also a box or container of sorts. The words of our prayers can each be seen as teivot, strongboxes containing the thoughts of the authors.
To be sure, we aspire to open the vaults of prayer and access the intentions of the authors. If we do not succeed in retrieving the original connotations and subtext and we find ourselves mumbling words, these words are nevetheless invested with meaning by the great authors who bequeathed these prayers - words and intentions - to us.
Once again I am not arguing with you Chaim. I am interested in your understanding of these sages, and how they relate to your opinion...
For reference here is a translation of the Curse on Heretics from the Amidah:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/867674/jewish/Translation.htm
Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.
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And I hope nobody is thinking for a second that I defend the wicked and evil in the world. As I have said numerous times I wish only death and destruction for them. But there is a difference between wanting righteousness to flourish and taking pleasure in the fact that our enemies are suffering.
I don't have any need to feel pleasure when enemies are suffering. Just knowing that they got what they deserved is enough to make my faith and trust in Hashem stronger.
This is the only thing I wanted to express in this thread.
PS: Honestly I am very upset about the murder of the Fogels and cannot deny that I would certainly celebrate if I heard that their murderers were lynched.
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Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged? I am the 1st one to post the Shir at the sea {as I have done every year here}. It is a glorious revelation of Hashem and the Jews were able to see Hashems hand clearly.
The issue is that there are several pasuks, including the pasuk by Shmuel HaKatan {who is the sage who instituted the prayer in the Amidah against the heretics to which you refer} which clearly says that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies.
See my posting from last month @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,52355.0.html
Are you saying that we should disregard Pirkie Avot and Mishlei {from which Shmuel HaKatan derived his saying}? If not could you please explain your position in light of the sages?
Also I don't know of any Rabbi who I quoted who said that it was wrong to rejoice at the sea... It is clear from the Talmud and all sources that this rejoicing was certainly meritorious. The point I was making is that it is only in situations where Hashems glory is revealed that we should rejoice.... The sages have a variety of opinions whether other times it is permitted.
בס''ד
Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.
This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.
How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.
Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.
These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.
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בס''ד
Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.
This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.
How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.
Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.
These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.
I do not know the 'Rabbis' you refer to... I believe all the material I posted here supports the concept that the song at the sea was fully justified, but that it was due to the fact that Hashems glory was revealed. But I think I understand your opinion.
If what you are saying is correct why haven't the Jewish people, and our leaders, instituted a Holiday to rejoice the destruction of the Nazi Amalekites?
Maybe you could look into why the sages decided not to do a full-hallel during Pesach and explain why they did so...
Thank you
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בס''ד
If what you are saying is correct why haven't the Jewish people, and our leaders, instituted a Holiday to rejoice the destruction of the Nazi Amalekites?
The Jews have such a holiday: it's called Purim.
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בס''ד
The Jews have such a holiday: it's called Purim.
That is a good answer... But I have heard it asked why we don't have such a special day to celebrate the destruction of the German Nazis... But I like this answer too...
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I've got a friend who lives in the area where the big earthquake took place. I was very worried for her! :'( Thankfully, I was able to get in touch with her and have learned that she's fine, just a bit shaken up by events there. :dance: In taking to Sakoto, I've come to conclude that many Japanese are lost and searching for answers since their culture is so predominated by materialism; we talk about G-d sometimes, but she's from a Buddhist and Shinto background, and she seems like a potential righteous gentile to me. She's even somewhat aware of The Name of Gd, but via the the Watchtower Society. :o Sadly, because of her encounters with this group (and their antics), they missionize in Japan, she's told me that she doesn't like the name of Ehoba (the Japanese transliteration of Hashem). I hope to be able to correct her feelings one day.
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I've got a friend who lives in the area where the big earthquake took place. I was very worried for her! :'( Thankfully, I was able to get in touch with her and have learned that she's fine, just a bit shaken up by events there. :dance: In taking to Sakoto, I've come to conclude that many Japanese are lost and searching for answers since their culture is so predominated by materialism; we talk about G-d sometimes, but she's from a Buddhist and Shinto background, and she seems like a potential righteous gentile to me. She's even somewhat aware of The Name of Gd, but via the Hashem's Witnesses. :o Sadly, because of her encounters with this group (and their antics), they missionize in Japan, she's told me that she doesn't like the name of Ehoba (the Japanese transliteration of Hashem which is a transliteration of The Name). I hope to be able to correct her feelings one day.
That would be wonderful... The company I work at has offices in Japan and thank Hashem they are all safe and accounted for..
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That would be wonderful... The company I work at has offices in Japan and thank Hashem they are all safe and accounted for..
I modified my post a bit. :)
Yes, thanks, Sakoto is a smart lady, but her encounters with the various off-the-wall groups in Japan has kind of soured her on Gd. You know the types, who basically break the 1st Commandment by essentially bullying people into believing about Gd. :'( I've been blessed to know many fine Japanese people over the years and the good ones, even if they're Buddhist or Shinto, are very friendly and warm-hearted. The Japanese of this generation are nothing like the Japanese of the World War 2 era.
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Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged?
Oh come on Muman now your are just speaking gibberish or trying to render language meaningless. The shir is a form of rejoicing as was the singing and dancing that went with it. You can't honestly expect someone to take your statement above seriously, can you? There is no logic there.
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בס''ד
Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.
This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.
How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.
Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.
These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.
Exactly. I have tried to say these points here but I guess I didn't get thru or was ignored. You said this quite well.
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Maybe you could look into why the sages decided not to do a full-hallel during Pesach and explain why they did so...
Thank you
MUMAN! This is extremely frustrating, I have already addressed this point twice in this thread and it seems you just ignored me.
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Oh come on Muman now your are just speaking gibberish or trying to render language meaningless. The shir is a form of rejoicing as was the singing and dancing that went with it. You can't honestly expect someone to take your statement above seriously, can you? There is no logic there.
You obviously did not read the material which discusses, in depth, the reasons why some rejoicing is permitted. Basically, as I have repeated time and again, there is an obligation to rejoice when the hand of Hashem is revealed {as it was at the Yam}...
But you have not addressed the matter aside from trying to attack me and my understanding.
When did I ever say that the shir at the sea was not rejoicing? I pointed to two medrashes which say 1) That the angels asked why Hashem was destroying the Egyptians when they said "This one worships idols and that one worships idols"... And the 2nd which says that the angels were not permitted to sing at the sea because they did not suffer as the Jews did in Egypt...
Do not ascribe things to me which I did not say...
I also said that while we recite the Amidah which clearly curses the heretics, that very curse was written by Shmuel HaKatan who also repeated the Mishlei {Proverbs} that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies. You never did address that except to state {incorrectly} that he was referring to only the personal enemy...
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So KWRBT,
Please explain your understanding of when we can rejoice against our enemies... Do you believe that the sages had nothing to say about it? Or do you want to disregard what the sages have said?
Here are the Pasuks from Mishlei:
15. Wicked man, do not lurk by the dwelling of a righteous man; do not plunder his resting place. טו.
16. For a righteous man can fall seven times and rise, but the wicked shall stumble upon evil. טז.
17. When your enemy falls, do not rejoice, and when he stumbles, let your heart not exult, יז.
18. lest the Lord see and be displeased, and turn His wrath away from him. יח.
19. Do not compete with evildoers; do not envy the wicked יט.
20. for there will be no future for an evil one; the lamp of the wicked will flicker.
Please provide a link which explains the position you take on these pasuks.. If you would like to continue this discussion...
See also:
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5766/kisiso/oraltskykss66.htm
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Here is another commentary which re-affirms my opinion..
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5766/kisiso/oraltskykss66.htm
Opinion & Comment
After Your Enemy Falls . . .
An adaptation of the sichos of HaRav Chaim Dov Altusky, Shlita
In Pirkei Ovos (4:19), Shmuel Hakoton quotes the posuk, "When your enemy falls, do not be happy. And when he falters, your heart should not be filled with happiness: for the Ribono Shel Olom may look into your heart and see how happy you are over the fall of your enemy. And He will not like what He sees in your heart. And then Hashem will withdraw His anger from your enemy" (Mishlei 24:17,18).
With a surprising chiddush, Rashi explains that not only will Hashem take away His anger from the enemy but also, the enemy will be forgiven of all his sins. Remarkably, the Ribono Shel Olom reverses the verdict of someone who rightfully deserves punishment simply because people are happy over his demise. Furthermore, those who are happy over their enemy's downfall will incur the wrath of Hashem.
In his commentary on Pirkei Ovos, Rabbeinu Yonah adds an even bigger chiddush: This process occurs even when the enemy is a rosho, meaning that Hashem considers him a rosho because he is predominantly a baal aveiroh! He has very few mitzvos to counterbalance those aveiros and therefore receives his punishment.
Nonetheless, Shmuel Hakoton teaches us not to be elated over his suffering. Since, as Rabbeinu Yonah puts it, "A person should only be happy because of the kiddush Sheim Shomayim that is occurring for the benefit of the Name of Hashem Yisborach."
When a rosho suffers because of all the pain he has caused, this sanctifies the Name of the Ribono Shel Olom. Therefore, we should be happy because the rosho receives his due punishment. When people witness a rosho running rampant by treading upon the feelings, sensitivities, and lives of others, the rosho feels— and his victims believe—that he is master of his and their destiny. Then, when his punishment comes and he falls, this sanctifies Hashem's Name.
Therefore, it is very good if we are happy because of the kiddush Sheim Shomayim. Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Yonah warns us: Even a tzaddik should not experience personal happiness over the fall of the reshoim. Through the demise of reshoim, people see how Hashem has revealed His complete control over all events. Therefore, the focus of our joy is kvod Shomayim. We are happy because the world realizes that the Ribono Shel Olom is always in control. Hashem has brought about the enemy's demise.
We must not harbor a personal hatred for the rosho nor seek personal revenge. This is so even if this rosho has caused us great personal aggravation and suffering. Even if we have many good reasons to pray and seek his downfall, nevertheless if we will be happy because we hate him for what he did to us, to our families, and to others, then Rabbeinu Yonah says, "The Ribono Shel Olom will cleanse and forgive all this rosho's aveiros."
I will agree that it seems that the Rasho which is referred to is a personal enemy and not a national enemy...
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Maybe we should discuss this in the Torah section. I feel that the thread has gone way off topic...
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Distortion of Torah is worse than murder
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Distortion of Torah is worse than murder
And who is distorting Torah? Can't you contribute something which adds to the discussion?
If you have an issue with Pirkie Avot or Mishlie then please say so... Otherwise explain why you disregard what is written there... More succinctly, please provide the pasuks which exhort the Jews to rejoice when their enemies fall... That would really help your cause..
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I can only offer my two cents. I judge people on a personal and a meta-personal level. For example, let's use a theory. It is said that Gd will have war with Amalek for all generations, no? Yet, what happens if you come across an Amalekite whom you befriend and is willing to befriend you and even to see things your way? Do you judge the Amalekite for being an Amalekite or for being a good person? :read: Gd wanted to judge the Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham asked him something along the lines of "Shall not the Judge of the earth deal justice fairly?"
I don't know too many rabbinic opinions; I only read from Torah, mainly. Japan's disaster is truly a disaster, but the thing is this: is it a natural disaster, purely volcanic and tectonic activity, or an especial disaster sent by Gd as punishment? If this is so, in the latter case, what of the storms, floods, and blizzards in the U.S.? :o
This is all that I can say.
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I can only offer my two cents. I judge people on a personal and a meta-personal level. For example, let's use a theory. It is said that Gd will have war with Amalek for all generations, no? Yet, what happens if you come across an Amalekite whom you befriend and is willing to befriend you and even to see things your way? Do you judge the Amalekite for being an Amalekite or for being a good person? :read: Gd wanted to judge the Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham asked him something along the lines of "Shall not the Judge of the earth deal justice fairly?"
I don't know too many rabbinic opinions; I only read from Torah, mainly. Japan's disaster is truly a disaster, but there's the thing is this: is it a natural disaster, purely volcanic and tectonic activity, or an especial disaster sent by Gd as punishment? If this is so, in the latter case, what of the storms, floods, and blizzards in the U.S.? :o
This is all that I can say.
Your opinion is interesting but not the Jewish one... Amalekites are not friends to Jews, their very nature is that they hate Jews, Judaism, and Hashem himself. They want to attack the Jews to prove that the Jews are not Hashems chosen people.
I do not think that using Amalek as an example is a good thing. Torah is clear that we must ERADICATE Amalek from the world. I sure hope I don't know any Amalekites..
Despite the fact that Abraham asked Hashem to spare Sdom, only because there may have been 50,40,30,20,10 righteous people in the town. Abraham did not want to spare the wicked of Sdom, only the righteous, but because of the merit of the righteous the city may have been spared. But Hashem made his glory known when he smote Sdom...
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Your opinion is interesting but not the Jewish one... Amalekites are not friends to Jews, their very nature is that they hate Jews, Judaism, and Hashem himself. They want to attack the Jews to prove that the Jews are not Hashems chosen people.
I do not think that using Amalek as an example is a good thing. Torah is clear that we must ERADICATE Amalek from the world. I sure hope I don't know any Amalekites..
Despite the fact that Abraham asked Hashem to spare Sdom, only because there may have been 50,40,30,20,10 righteous people in the town. Abraham did not want to spare the wicked of Sdom, only the righteous, but because of the merit of the righteous the city may have been spared. But Hashem made his glory known when he smote Sdom...
I know the goal of Amalek, but I was trying to stress that Gd will look favorably even upon the most vile of people if he or she truly repents of wickedness and seeks to make amends with the people that have been harmed. I was using an extreme case to stress a point: Gd's mercy. For many, Gd's justice and righteous anger are His only qualities, yet He is also a Gd of mercy as well. :)
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I know the goal of Amalek, but I was trying to stress that Gd will look favorably even upon the most vile of people if he or she truly repents of wickedness and seeks to make amends with the people that have been harmed. I was using an extreme case to stress a point: Gd's mercy. For many, Gd's justice and righteous anger are His only qualities, yet He is also a Gd of mercy as well. :)
I will quote myself herein and just add that we believe in a Gd who balances justice with mercy, no? Only a false god like the demonic Allah, aka Baal, will use violence when diplomacy and forgiveness are to be preferred. :)
Yes, I know, my opinion is not Jewish, but Jews aren't the only ones who have things to say about Gd. Many Gentiles do as well, even if our opinions ultimately lie within the Jewish frame of reference. :)
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What a justice...
They demanded a "No Fly Zone" in Libya and it has been provided around Fukushima!
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So KWRBT,
Please explain your understanding of when we can rejoice against our enemies... Do you believe that the sages had nothing to say about it? Or do you want to disregard what the sages have said?
Here are the Pasuks from Mishlei:
It is incredibly condescending of you to assume that the differing opinion from yours is some kind of wanton trashing of chazal, God forbid.
But beyond that, I have a hard time understanding what it is you are trying to say. You mention the sages but then you quote me verses from mishlei which were not written by the sages but they are part of the Tanakh!
It sounds to me like you have been misled by some PC rabbis and you are gung-ho about the way they speak about chazal but haven't bothered to actually assess whether or not their words really fit with what chazal said and with Torah sources. Quoting me a line from mishlei does not accomplish such an analysis!
Please provide a link which explains the position you take on these pasuks.. If you would like to continue this discussion...
I can provide several but you are sort of missing the point. Why not analyze the points I'm making and consider the logic I'm presenting (and the challenges to the other point of view) and determine whether what I say makes sense or sounds plausible. Why does it have to be a "battle of links" and copy-pasting? If I cite you a rabbi who agrees with me it is ok but if not then I'm definitely wrong? This is not an exercise in authority figure brandishing, this is supposed to be a discussion where we use our brains to decide and understand
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Your opinion is interesting but not the Jewish one... Amalekites are not friends to Jews, their very nature is that they hate Jews, Judaism, and Hashem himself. They want to attack the Jews to prove that the Jews are not Hashems chosen people.
Lol you tell him what he said is not the Jewish view but what he said fits perfectly with something you just copied and pasted here! So perhaps you disagree afterall with the rabbi you just quoted from chareidi.shemayisrael and the manner in which YOU presented it here (please don't pretend you didn't add interoretation even without saying anything because the implication of your posting it is very clear from the context of the discussion ?
You are suggesting that statement of shmuel speaks about any evil person, even our enemy nations - so why exclude amalek?
Given your assumption then why would amalek not also be forgiven?
Perhaps you misunderstood not only shmuel but also Rabbi altusky
Can't you see that Rabbi Altusky is speaking about an individual Jew (even a wicked one which he refers to as rosho) when he mentions it is someone with many averos but few mitzvas. What you cited lends support to me and to Chaim, NOT to your view.
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You obviously did not read the material which discusses, in depth, the reasons why some rejoicing is permitted. Basically, as I have repeated time and again, there is an obligation to rejoice when the hand of Hashem is revealed {as it was at the Yam}...
Now you are being orwellian and distorting language.
Either we are forbidden to rejoice or we are not. You say NOW that some rejoicing is permitted but that admits my position is correct. All along I have been trying to say rejoicing is permitted the only caveat is not to go over the top with it. At the outset you tried to claim we cannot rejoice. Why not just admit you changed your mind instead of pretending to still argue while you have adopted a new position?