JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Allen-T on June 13, 2007, 04:42:35 PM
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A great passage from Lenny Goldberg's book "The Wit And Wisdom Of Rabbi Meir Kahane" that I thought was relevant in light of some recent posts;
Rabbi Kahane's movement both in America and Israel was often filled with all kinds of weirdos. Being an anti-establishment, rebel movement, it often attracted "rebel" and unstable types, who were sometimes prone to rebel against the Rabbi himself. Many well-meaning Jews disassociated themselves with his movement not for idealogical reasons, but because of the "crazies" who always seemed to be involved in the organization.
The Rabbi indirectly addressed this problem through examples from the Tanach: When David fled Saul and had to leave city and civilization for the dangerous and desolate desert of Judea-who went with him? The Bible is quite specific: 'Every man is distress,every man in debt,and every man embittered of spirit,gathered themselves to him;and he became their leader.With him were about four hundred men" [Samuel 1 22:2]. And when Yiftach had to flee his brethren for a strange land, we are told that 'there were gathered to him empty men' [anashim raikim] [Judges 11:3].
The Rabbi continues: "No, it is not surprising. The comfortable and ordinary do not go with Davids and Yiftachs-until they are a success. And the "nice and decent" physics majors and yeshiva students do not become involved with unpopular and uncomfortable and dangerous groups until they become winners".
The Rabbi thereby concluded that the problem wasn't 400 malcontents who went with David, but the good, stable people, afraid to leave their secure, tranquil lives, thereby leaving the struggle in the hands of the "crazies".
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Wow, I said the exact same thing to kahaneloyalist about this and I now see the Rav thought the same way as me. What a genius.
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A great passage from Lenny Goldberg's book "The Wit And Wisdom Of Rabbi Meir Kahane" that I thought was relevant in light of some recent posts;
Rabbi Kahane's movement both in America and Israel was often filled with all kinds of weirdos. Being an anti-establishment, rebel movement, it often attracted "rebel" and unstable types, who were sometimes prone to rebel against the Rabbi himself. Many well-meaning Jews disassociated themselves with his movement not for idealogical reasons, but because of the "crazies" who always seemed to be involved in the organization.
The Rabbi indirectly addressed this problem through examples from the Tanach: When David fled Saul and had to leave city and civilization for the dangerous and desolate desert of Judea-who went with him? The Bible is quite specific: 'Every man is distress,every man in debt,and every man embittered of spirit,gathered themselves to him;and he became their leader.With him were about four hundred men" [Samuel 1 22:2]. And when Yiftach had to flee his brethren for a strange land, we are told that 'there were gathered to him empty men' [anashim raikim] [Judges 11:3].
The Rabbi continues: "No, it is not surprising. The comfortable and ordinary do not go with Davids and Yiftachs-until they are a success. And the "nice and decent" physics majors and yeshiva students do not become involved with unpopular and uncomfortable and dangerous groups until they become winners".
The Rabbi thereby concluded that the problem wasn't 400 malcontents who went with David, but the good, stable people, afraid to leave their secure, tranquil lives, thereby leaving the struggle in the hands of the "crazies".
nice story
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Hello all, and good day.
The wisdom of the Rabbi ZT"L HY"D never ceases to amaze me. Thanks Allen.
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Thats true and very interesting
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
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Throughout history it has always been this way with the Jewish people, a Tzadik, like Yehuda HaMaccabee, or David HaMelech, or the Rav, will gather unto himself Jews who have been unable to deal with society, and together they bring about great things, and they will become great people because they joined to that Tzadik.
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
believe me, nothing will be done..nobody moderate wants to hang out with crazies.
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
believe me, nothing will be done..nobody moderate wants to hang out with crazies.
but few moderates get anything done. That's the point. In times like these the most effective people are those with nothing to lose.
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
believe me, nothing will be done..nobody moderate wants to hang out with crazies.
but few moderates get anything done. That's the point. In times like these the most effective people are those with nothing to lose.
i see we have gotten really far in the last 10 years too...didn't prevent 9/11 and another bombing the WTC did we? And back then jtf had a bunch of crazies...Nobody likes to listen to crazies...nobody wants to follow crazies..only more crazies... We need normal intellectual people here..
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
believe me, nothing will be done..nobody moderate wants to hang out with crazies.
but few moderates get anything done. That's the point. In times like these the most effective people are those with nothing to lose.
i see we have gotten really far in the last 10 years too...didn't prevent 9/11 and another bombing the WTC did we? And back then jtf had a bunch of crazies...Nobody likes to listen to crazies...nobody wants to follow crazies..only more crazies... We need normal intellectual people here..
The most brilliant minds are totally insane ;D
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The most brilliant minds are totally insane ;D
They're at least perceived that way by less-thans.
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Exactly. My father said in the 70's only the semi crazy ones were willing to do the big stuff for soviet Jewry in the JDL. Were they really crazy or were we the crazy ones for not following them? Many of great leaders in the Bible and Jewish History were probably considered crazy at their time. Samson was, David was and Judah the Macabe were. R' Kahane Zs'l was also considered crazy by many but it is these kinds of people that get things done. Now everyone knows that Kahane was right, and they were crazy for not following him.
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I am not so sure we can even compare JTF today to what I know of the JDL then. Meeting face to face, physically doing things,training camps,etc. We should be doing stuff, maybe a Guardian Angels type thing, patroling the subways, busting up the riff raff and talking to people about JTF in the process. Are you telling me that if people saw us terrorising the subway beasts into submission they wouldn't be interested in joining? That's truly TAKING BACK AMERICA.
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Exactly. My father said in the 70's only the semi crazy ones were willing to do the big stuff for soviet Jewry in the JDL. Were they really crazy or were we the crazy ones for not following them? Many of great leaders in the Bible and Jewish History were probably considered crazy at their time. Samson was, David was and Judah the Macabe were. R' Kahane Zs'l was also considered crazy by many but it is these kinds of people that get things done. Now everyone knows that Kahane was right, and they were crazy for not following him.
I have been reading books on Zionism lately. Let me tell you - all these first Zionists were considered crazy, and Hertzl - the first among the crazies. OK, not loony-crazy, but more like head-in-the-clouds crazy. All the smart and rational Jews at the time thought that these Zionists were completely out of touch with reality. There are some great quotes there - something to do with great things being fulfilled through larger-than-life plans, not through "reasonable" plans. But I don't have time to comb through the books right now. When I get to them in due time, the quotes might pop up.
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I am not so sure we can even compare JTF today to what I know of the JDL then. Meeting face to face, physically doing things,training camps,etc. We should be doing stuff, maybe a Guardian Angels type thing, patroling the subways, busting up the riff raff and talking to people about JTF in the process. Are you telling me that if people saw us terrorising the subway beasts into submission they wouldn't be interested in joining? That's truly TAKING BACK AMERICA.
You're right, Allen.
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To me, the "crazies" are the self-hating Jews who criticize Rabbi Kahane. :)
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There is something Hertzl said that is very true, "A realist never accomplishes anything" it was true then its true today. What we need and what Hertzl and Rabbi Kahane zt'l and all great Jewish leaders were, were people who were idealists who believed great things were possible that the so called "moderates" laughed at. But at the same time they understood the methods needed to accomplish their goals, it happened to be that many of the foot soldiers and mid range leadership often fell and fall into the crazy category.
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Well, count me a "crazy."
I think Israel needs a "crazy" leader right now.
Don't count me crazy..just bored most of the time..and addicted to this forum...however, there are a looooot of crazy people here..i hope they can taught to keep the fire within and be eloquent when arguing with people...it's a mass movement we want..not a fringe movement with a bunch of crazies. :-\
Only a mass movement of "crazies" will get anything done, though.
believe me, nothing will be done..nobody moderate wants to hang out with crazies.
but few moderates get anything done. That's the point. In times like these the most effective people are those with nothing to lose.
i see we have gotten really far in the last 10 years too...didn't prevent 9/11 and another bombing the WTC did we? And back then jtf had a bunch of crazies...Nobody likes to listen to crazies...nobody wants to follow crazies..only more crazies... We need normal intellectual people here..
The most brilliant minds are totally insane ;D
the most brilliant minds are also rational.
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Exactly. My father said in the 70's only the semi crazy ones were willing to do the big stuff for soviet Jewry in the JDL. Were they really crazy or were we the crazy ones for not following them? Many of great leaders in the Bible and Jewish History were probably considered crazy at their time. Samson was, David was and Judah the Macabe were. R' Kahane Zs'l was also considered crazy by many but it is these kinds of people that get things done. Now everyone knows that Kahane was right, and they were crazy for not following him.
But one cannot be crazy and that's it...he/she needs to be rational at the same time. Chaim ben Pesach is crazy, but very rational... many posters here are simply crazy and lack rationality..
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I am not so sure we can even compare JTF today to what I know of the JDL then. Meeting face to face, physically doing things,training camps,etc. We should be doing stuff, maybe a Guardian Angels type thing, patroling the subways, busting up the riff raff and talking to people about JTF in the process. Are you telling me that if people saw us terrorising the subway beasts into submission they wouldn't be interested in joining? That's truly TAKING BACK AMERICA.
if this is the way you want to go about it, I will stand on teh sidelines and cheer you on...
however, we need smart intellectuals who know how to argue properly...go on the radio, become talkshow hosts...get into the mass media...the newspapers etc...i think this will win hearts and promote a change in the Western hemisphere to be tough.
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There is something Hertzl said that is very true, "A realist never accomplishes anything" it was true then its true today.
So true, so true. Yes, it's anti-intuitive, but this is how it works nonetheless. Too bad we never learn from history.
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We also need to understand what methods are effective for creating mass movements and accomplishing great things in our time. That is one(of many) things I admire about Chaim he understand youtube is a extremely powerful tool, more so then traditional TV.
I do think that if anyone on this forum owns a gym or Dojo it would be great to have forum only training sessions, and it would be a great place to recruit people.
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There is something Hertzl said that is very true, "A realist never accomplishes anything" it was true then its true today. What we need and what Hertzl and Rabbi Kahane zt'l and all great Jewish leaders were, were people who were idealists who believed great things were possible that the so called "moderates" laughed at. But at the same time they understood the methods needed to accomplish their goals, it happened to be that many of the foot soldiers and mid range leadership often fell and fall into the crazy category.
That is because "realists" don't believe in God, when it comes right down to it.