JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Sephirath on August 26, 2011, 01:25:08 PM
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(Loved this artical, had to share)
http://www.facebook.com/notes/eliezer-ben-melech/dear-christianity-a-letter-from-me/211017768954219
Dear Christianity....... A letter from me
by Eliezer Ben Melech on Thursday, August 25, 2011 at 3:48pm
Dear Christendom,
Please stop trying to convert us into your religion. It is completely unnecessary. We have been worshiping G-d for thousands of years, the One and Only G-d. This is the same one that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshiped so very long ago. Worshiping a man is idolatry. Whether you see it as that or not makes no difference to me. G-d has a name and it isn’t Jesus. It appears 6,823 times in the bible. Christians believe that Jesus and G-d are one in the same. That means according to your own holy book, we don’t need to convert. If it is as you say and Jesus and G-d are the same (I personally disagree) then we already “believe in HIM” therefore we are “saved”. My Jewish brothers and sisters all worship the One G-d that created the world. We depend on HIM for nourishment, redemption, salvation, and deliverance. It’s quite amusing that you think we are the ones that need to be “saved”. We are the same people that Jesus was talking about when he himself said “salvation is of the Jews”. This is the same Jesus that celebrated Chanukah, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and all the other holidays that you will find in the Bible. The church did a wonderful job at distancing you from the guy you rely upon for your salvation seeing as Jesus was a Jew. You can keep your modified pagan holidays and call them Christian if you want because after all, it is a free country and you may believe whatever you want. I don’t want to drink blood and eat human flesh with you (even if it is symbolic) because G-d says that is an abomination to HIM. Last but not least….. Don’t be jealous because I am more like Jesus than you are and that is just by default. As a Jew, I strive daily to walk in HIS path, fulfill HIS commandments, and rely solely on HIM. So, don’t worry about us… We’ll be fine….
With all due respect,
Eliezer ben Melech
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JTF is an organization based on cooperation between Jews and righteous Gentiles. We have a lot of great Christian members who sincerely support Israel and who make no attempt to convert us. This is why I think this kind of offensive post is a bad idea.
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I dont see anything which is offensive in this post. It is 100% true... It is not a secret that Jews do not believe in the Christian 'messiah'... And maybe a gentile reader can understand that Jews are G-ds chosen people and do not deserve the disrespect we have been shown.
For those who find it offensive I am sorry... But the Jewish people found it offensive for 1000s of years to be subjected to the forced conversions, pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions. Rabbi Kahane was not shy to talk about these events nor should any Jew worth his world to come..
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I dont see anything which is offensive in this post. It is 100% true... It is not a secret that Jews do not believe in the Christian 'messiah'... And maybe a gentile reader can understand that Jews are G-ds chosen people and do not deserve the disrespect we have been shown.
For those who find it offensive I am sorry... But the Jewish people found it offensive for 1000s of years to be subjected to the forced conversions, pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions. Rabbi Kahane was not shy to talk about these events nor should any Jew worth his world to come..
Maybe you're right, there's no reason for a truly righteous Gentile to find anything offensive here... I just don't want the divisive, bitter threads on Christianity vs Judaism to appear again and I thought it could be useful to inform a new JTFer of JTF's "policy" on this issue.
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Maybe you're right, there's no reason for a truly righteous Gentile to find anything offensive here... I just don't want the divisive, bitter threads on Christianity vs Judaism to appear again and I thought it could be useful to inform a new JTFer of JTF's "policy" on this issue.
Very true... Nor do I seek any confrontation with the very good gentile members of JTF. I appreciate your concern..
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I've never seen any of our Christian members prophesize or try to convert people, I think most of our members Jewish and Gentile are here for common purposes and that is to prevent the spread of Islam.
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I've never seen any of our Christian members prophesize or try to convert people, I think most of our members Jewish and Gentile are here for common purposes and that is to prevent the spread of Islam.
Agree. Every person should live within his religion. Who are we to force somebody to convert to our religion. The only people who would like to see us converting to their religion are Muslims. Last year, over 20000 Americans embraced this massive dangerous cult of Satan. In less than 50 years,the whole world can be Muslim if we wouldn't work to stop this mess. May Hashem bless every single human being, except for those who disrespect Hashem (muslims, nazis, communists).
Amen!
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(Loved this artical, had to share)
http://www.facebook.com/notes/eliezer-ben-melech/dear-christianity-a-letter-from-me/211017768954219
Dear Christianity....... A letter from me
by Eliezer Ben Melech on Thursday, August 25, 2011 at 3:48pm
Dear Christendom,
Please stop trying to convert us into your religion. It is completely unnecessary. We have been worshiping G-d for thousands of years, the One and Only G-d. This is the same one that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshiped so very long ago. Worshiping a man is idolatry. Whether you see it as that or not makes no difference to me. G-d has a name and it isn’t Jesus. It appears 6,823 times in the bible. Christians believe that Jesus and G-d are one in the same. That means according to your own holy book, we don’t need to convert. If it is as you say and Jesus and G-d are the same (I personally disagree) then we already “believe in HIM” therefore we are “saved”. My Jewish brothers and sisters all worship the One G-d that created the world. We depend on HIM for nourishment, redemption, salvation, and deliverance. It’s quite amusing that you think we are the ones that need to be “saved”. We are the same people that Jesus was talking about when he himself said “salvation is of the Jews”. This is the same Jesus that celebrated Chanukah, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and all the other holidays that you will find in the Bible. The church did a wonderful job at distancing you from the guy you rely upon for your salvation seeing as Jesus was a Jew. You can keep your modified pagan holidays and call them Christian if you want because after all, it is a free country and you may believe whatever you want. I don’t want to drink blood and eat human flesh with you (even if it is symbolic) because G-d says that is an abomination to HIM. Last but not least….. Don’t be jealous because I am more like Jesus than you are and that is just by default. As a Jew, I strive daily to walk in HIS path, fulfill HIS commandments, and rely solely on HIM. So, don’t worry about us… We’ll be fine….
With all due respect,
Eliezer ben Melech
Please give us names and addresses of who is trying to convert you?
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I dont see anything which is offensive in this post. It is 100% true... It is not a secret that Jews do not believe in the Christian 'messiah'... And maybe a gentile reader can understand that Jews are G-ds chosen people and do not deserve the disrespect we have been shown.
For those who find it offensive I am sorry... But the Jewish people found it offensive for 1000s of years to be subjected to the forced conversions, pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions. Rabbi Kahane was not shy to talk about these events nor should any Jew worth his world to come..
Who tried to convert you RECENTLY?, I like you reformers who say a post like this is not offensive and go back a thousand years, come on give us a break and come to 2011.
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Who tried to convert you RECENTLY?, I like you reformers who say a post like this is not offensive and go back a thousand years, come on give us a break and come to 2011.
I never said anyone tried to convert me... Where do you come up with that? But you are dead wrong that the persecution of Jews occured THOUSANDS of years ago... You do realize that Jews are persecuted by Christian antisemitism to this day.
You realize that in Ukraine in the 1700s-1800s Jews were regularly exposed to pogroms and massacres? My family emigrated to America in 1890s and they were persecuted {and this is only 100 years ago}. You also realize that the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 which was only 500 year ago. And the Holocaust was only 70 years ago.
So do not try to minimize the damage which non-Jews inflicted on Jews. Christian antisemitism is even alive today. Just read some of the talkbacks where antisemitism is exhibited and you will see the blood libels and the accusations of being Spawn of Satan. The New Testament is still full of antisemitic content...
When I was 10 years old I was told by a neighborhood friend that because I am Jewish I am not going to Heaven and he even said that we were spawns of the devil... I will never forget that...
And if you think that Christians have given up on converting Jews Think again. Have you ever heard of 'Jews for Jsus'? It is a missionary organization, a wing of the Evangelical Christian churches, which actively is pursuing Jews {especially in Israel} to convert them from Judaism to Christianity.
Are you aware of any of this or are you just ignorant {claiming antisemitism stopped 1000s of years ago}...
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/
PS: It was not until 1965 that the Catholic church stopped blaming the Jewish people for killing their messiah..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council
Fourth period: 1965
Eleven schemata remained unfinished at the end of the third period, and commissions worked to give them their final form. Schema 13, on the Church in the modern world, was revised by a commission that worked with the assistance of laymen.
Pope Paul VI opened the last period of the Council on 14 September 1965 with the establishment of a Synod of Bishops. This more permanent structure was intended to preserve close cooperation of the bishops with the Pope after the council.
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One of the more controversial documents was Nostra Aetate, which stated that the Jews of the time of Christ, taken indiscriminately, and all Jews today are no more responsible for the death of Christ than Christians.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of G-d, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by G-d, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of G-d they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.[21]
See also: Christian-Jewish reconciliation and Relations between Catholicism and Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_jesus
Jews for Jesus is a conservative,[1] Christian[2][3] evangelical organization that focuses specifically on the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Its members consider themselves to be Jews – either as defined by Jewish law, or as according to the view of Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus defines “Jewish” in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief.[4] The identification of Jews for Jesus as a Jewish organization is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations[5][6] and secular Jewish groups[7][8] due to the Christian beliefs of its members. The group's evangelical activities have garnered mixed reactions from other Christian individuals and organizations, largely divided between liberal and conservative Christian lines.[9][1]
History
The organization was founded by Moishe Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister[10] who was born Jewish and converted to Christianity at the age of 17[11]. Rosen was the head of the San Francisco arm of the American Board of Missions to the Jews (an organization now known as Chosen People Ministries). In 1973, Rosen broke off from that organization[12], and in September of that year, incorporated Jews for Jesus as Hineni Ministries with its headquarters in the San Francisco area. Over the next few years, it established branches in other cities. In 1979, it shut down its branches for up to several years to retrain its missionaries. It then went on to open more branches, mostly in United States cities, in the 1980s, as well as abroad in the 1990s. Rosen remained its executive director until May, 1996 when he was replaced by David Brickner,[1] also a Baptist minister[13]. Moishe Rosen died in May, 2010. The organization has maintained its headquarters in or near San Francisco, California since its inception.[14]
[edit] Aims and organization
Jews for Jesus is based in San Francisco, California. Jews for Jesus official mission statement is "to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide." Through media advertisements, production and distribution of literature, producing music and organizing person-to-person evangelism, the organization asserts that "a specifically Jewish mission" is necessary, saying "Jewish people tend to dismiss evangelistic methods and materials that are couched in Christian lingo, because they reinforce the assumption that Jesus is for 'them' not 'us.'"[15]
Jews for Jesus promotes awareness of the Jewish heritage of the Christian faith. Their website contains brief descriptions of Jewish festivals.[16] The group also provides programs that provide their Christian interpretation of Jewish holidays such as Passover, Sukkot and Hanukkah, explaining what they consider messianic elements and how they believe these festivals are related to Jesus.
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One last post on this thread...
I have no problem working or socializing with non-Jews. I recently befriended a very nice Mexican man who is a Mormon. We share discussions on the Tanach and philosophy. He is very careful not to say things which will send red flags concerning the nature of Hashem {Non-corporeal, Infinite, Omniscient, etc.} and I respect him for this. He has not tried to convert me to believe what he believes. I do believe that he has learned something from me concerning the Tanach.
But I also study a lot of anti-missionary material so that I will be able to debate the topics. I know about many of the tricks used by missionaries like Jews for Jesus. The Jewish wisdom tells us to know what to say to someone who believes 'heretical' {from a Jewish perspective} beliefs.
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter2-19.html
"Rabbi Elazar said: Be diligent in the study of Torah. Know what to answer a heretic. Know before Whom you toil. And faithful is your Employer that He will pay you the reward for your labor."
We are continuing to study the teachings of the five primary students of R. Yochanan ben Zakkai (Mishna 10). This mishna presents the words of R. Elazar, R. Yochanan's fifth and final student.
R. Elazar advises us to be prepared to answer all challenges put forth by heretics. We must anticipate their arguments and be ready with proper and appropriate responses. We must know how the other side is translating (and usually mistranslating) verses and what those verses truly mean. (Don't allow them to turn "a son has been born to us" (written many hundreds of years before the Common Era) into "a son will be born." And certainly don't let them tell you "maiden" means "virgin". By the way, by this I don't mean by this that others are not entitled to their own beliefs. But telling us our own Scripture says it -- when anyone who speaks Hebrew knows it does not -- is going a bit too far.)
And this should not be a difficult task. We have the original Hebrew and all the ancient commentaries on our side. Truth really does speak for itself. Nevertheless, as we all know, getting others to buy truth is 10% content and 90% packaging. We must not only know what to answer. We must well know how to say it.
The term our mishna uses for heretic is "apikorus." This is the Hebrew equivalent of Epicurus, the Ancient Greek philosopher (3rd-2nd Centuries B.C.E.), founder of the Epicurean philosophy ("Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we may die" -- especially with eating habits like that). (The Epicureans were actually more "rational hedonists," but for our purposes, the folk-simplification is sufficient -- and also telling.) The term apikorus in Jewish literature has become synonymous with one who adheres to any doctrine contrary to the basic tenets of Judaism. Certainly Epicureanism is practically antithetical to all we believe in. Death is not an end to existence to be ignored and disregarded. To the contrary: this world is no more than an entranceway before the Banquet Hall (4:21). The eventuality of death should not drive us to indulge ourselves, but to spend our lives preparing for that future grand entrance. (See also earlier, 2:15 .)
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The prophets looked forward to a time when all of humanity will be united in worship of the G-d of the Jews (Zephaniah 3:9). Though humanity is a world apart from the vision of our Nivim. Currently there are over 900 christian groups actively involved in targeting the Jewish people in North America alone. These missionizing society are currently spending over $250 million dollars per year on there efforts (one quarter billion usd). Presently in America the intermarriage rate in near 65 percent a raise from the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey recording a rate of 52 percent. This near 15 percent decline in Torah standards in the last few decades is one of the grates low watermarks of the last 2000 years of Jewish history. This assimilation is directly tied to proselytizing christian denominations and there secular society. In protestant germany 1935 the trend was strikingly similar with near 50 percent wandering away from the standards of Torah, we receive the shoah with thoughts like this. There is no peace with a people that holds the desire of murdering our souls, history has attested throw 1500 years of a peaceful Hebrew people being slaughtered like lambs.
Why worry more about the enemy then your own people. I don't see the problem of one honest Jew speaking his mind, Do you?
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Why worry more about the enemy then your own people. I don't see the problem of one honest Jew speaking his mind, Do you?
The righteous Gentiles on this forum are NOT our ennemies. They are our friends and I worry about my friends, whether they are Jewish or not.
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The righteous Gentiles on this forum are NOT our ennemies. They are our friends and I worry about my friends, whether they are Jewish or not.
Thank You.
This is meant to be divisive and attempts to damage the goals of JTF.
It is sad that some people never miss jumping on that bandwagon. I guess it's going in the direction they would like to see JTF take.
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Who tried to convert you RECENTLY?, I like you reformers who say a post like this is not offensive and go back a thousand years, come on give us a break and come to 2011.
Reformers?
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The righteous Gentiles on this forum are NOT our ennemies. They are our friends and I worry about my friends, whether they are Jewish or not.
Wait a minute there... Nobody said anything about gentiles being our enemies. Where do you come up with that?
I think you are reading something which is not there...
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Thank You.
This is meant to be divisive and attempts to damage the goals of JTF.
It is sad that some people never miss jumping on that bandwagon. I guess it's going in the direction they would like to see JTF take.
And Bullcat... What are you so upset about? The post did not say anything derogatory about Christians. Can you please tell me why you react the way you do? I don't quite understand your response. What is said here is nothing compared to the things said about Jews by some others.
I have nothing against non-Jew being involved with JTF nor with non-Jews in general. Those non-Jews who express antisemitism are my enemies. My friends are those who understand the Jewish mission as Rabbi Kahane expressed in his many videos and articles. If you agree with Rabbi Kahane you agree with me..
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Oh, please!
So upset :::D.
I was stating my opinion.
This thread was meant to be divisive.
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Wait a minute there... Nobody said anything about gentiles being our enemies. Where do you come up with that?
I think you are reading something which is not there...
The initial poster targets Christianity in general and then accuses me of worrying more about "the ennemy" than about my own people.
Now I'm going to stop with all this crap while I still feel able to remain polite because I am annoyed to be described as a kind of traitor here (and that last remark is not directed at you, Michael), just as I didn't particularly appreciate to be described as "much worse than a sub-microbe" two days ago because I disapproved of the idiotic idea of sending all Arabs into gas chambers (and, again, it wasn't you who called me this way and it is not you I am angry with...).
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Reformers?
Maybe I didn't use the right word, So I will say what I meant by that and you can label it.
I'm talking about some people on here who went to town drinking and smoking everything under the sun and taking drugs and never following the Torah and suddenly they follow it for a few years and suddenly they become these holy rollers that can preach about religion and the Big Bad Christians.
This goes for any religion, I don't believe in this born again and becoming a preacher stuff.
Sorry but anyone like that from any religion I can not take serious and their word and preaching should just be ignored.
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Of course JTF is against missionizing to Jews.
However, the problem with this type of thread is that is always morphs into being Judaism vs. Christianity, which we don't want here.
Being that 80% of Jews voted for Obama, and being that most American Jews would still not come near JTF with a 10 foot pole, I personally don't care for these types of threads. The non-Jews here are not our enemies. We appreciate their good will and support. So let's keep everything here civil, or I'll lock this thread and move it.
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Maybe I didn't use the right word, So I will say what I meant by that and you can label it.
I'm talking about some people on here who went to town drinking and smoking everything under the sun and taking drugs and never following the Torah and suddenly they follow it for a few years and suddenly they become these holy rollers that can preach about religion and the Big Bad Christians.
This goes for any religion, I don't believe in this born again and becoming a preacher stuff.
Sorry but anyone like that from any religion I can not take serious and their word and preaching should just be ignored.
You are quite an ignoramus when it comes to Judaism jbeige, aren't you. I cannot believe someone could be so ignorant about the concept of Teshuva. You try to besmirch my character and you fail miserably. The fact that over 10 years ago I had a problem and I overcame my problem does not in any way diminish my ability to return to the correct path. I also was born 100% Jewish and given a good Jewish education. I had the morals and the wisdom which I brought with me into adulthood.
The fact that you do not respect me is your problem, and your problem alone. I have, since my repentance, walked the path of Torah. I spend over 2 hours a day learning on top of my busy schedule working as a software engineer. I learn from 2 Rabbis and teach others when I have time. And I perform as many mitzvot {commandments} of the Torah as I can...
And I have no idea why you feel a need to talk badly of me. I never did such against you. What was posted by the original poster I agreed with and I did not preach anything. You have a personal problem Mr jbeige and I suggest you deal with it.
We are celebrating Rosh Hashana at the end of September. This is the time to do Teshuva. I suggest you do some serious introspection before you besmirch a Jews reputation. I expect an apology from you.
PS: I don't know what is meant by preaching? Are you a christian? We don't have preaching in Judaism. We have learning. If you don't want to learn, don't listen... I do not care what you personally believe.
PPS: It seems mr jbiege is a 'new member'... Maybe he is trying to troll in the Torah section?
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Of course JTF is against missionizing to Jews.
However, the problem with this type of thread is that is always morphs into being Judaism vs. Christianity, which we don't want here.
Being that 80% of Jews voted for Obama, and being that most American Jews would still not come near JTF with a 10 foot pole, I personally don't care for these types of threads. The non-Jews here are not our enemies. We appreciate their good will and support. So let's keep everything here civil, or I'll lock this thread and move it.
Lisa,
Did you read the original post. It did not say that Christians are enemies. I do not see that... It asks for Christian missionaries to leave us alone. It says that we are just fine worshiping G-d. I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to that? The fact that we have been on the sharp end of the sword so many times in history is very sad. But the original post did not even exhibit any anger.
Honestly I think some people are just too sensitive. It is essential for Jews to be proud to be Jews and not be ashamed of it. Rabbi Kahane was intimately aware of this and he was 100% against intermarriage. Do our non-Jewish members consider that too to be anti-Christian? It is not anti-Christian, it is 100% pro-Jewish. In order to remain Jewish we need strong Jewish youth...
I believe Rabbi Kahane was right.
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Muman, I read the original post.
Of course I'm against misisionizing, and I'm well aware of the anti-semitism against Jews committed in the name of Christianity. We don't allow missionizing here. Anyone who tries it is banned immediately, as are anti-Semite trolls.
Now from my experience as an administrator on this forum, I've seen how these types of threads morph into a Judaism vs. Christianity thing, and they always end up getting locked because of people bickering. I don't want to see that again here.
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Jbeige, I just saw your dig at Muman, which was totally uncalled for.
Yes he had his problems in the past, but he worked them out and made something good of his life. What's your point? I have a hard time believing you have been the model of virtue your entire life. So I think you owe Muman an apology.
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Muman, I read the original post.
Of course I'm against misisionizing, and I'm well aware of the anti-semitism against Jews committed in the name of Christianity. We don't allow missionizing here. Anyone who tries it is banned immediately, as are anti-Semite trolls.
Now from my experience as an administrator on this forum, I've seen how these types of threads morph into a Judaism vs. Christianity thing, and they always end up getting locked because of people bickering. I don't want to see that again here.
Certainly... I am sorry if what I wrote causes any bickering. I explained why I offered my opinion on the topic and otherwise I don't want to keep this going.
But how about Lashon Hara? jbeige has obviously attacked my character. I know that many here at JTF are supportive of me and I don't need to be validated by jbeige.
What I did almost 10 years ago was bad but it was something I needed to go through in order to end up where I am today. The Sages wrote that 'A Baal Teshuva stands where no person born Righteous can stand'. The Torah is full of the concept of repentance. Look at the story of Adam & Eve, the episode of the sin of the golden calf, and even King David... The prototype of repentance is the sin of the golden calf for which Hashem spared the entire Jewish people despite them having committed the gravest offense of idolatry. This is the major theme of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur...
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Jbeige, we've all done things in the past we haven't been proud of. But you chose to throw that in Muman's face. You owe him an apology.
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http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137090/jewish/Tzaddik-The-Baal-Teshuvah.htm
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G-d puts tzaddikim in this world to testify to the fact that He exists.13 By virtue of our connection to these righteous people and our belief in them, we are provided with a channel to connect with G-d.
The letter tzaddik has two forms. There is the bent tzaddik which occurs at the beginning or middle of a word. Then there is the straight tzaddik which occurs at the end of a word. What is the significance of each? The straight tzaddik represents the baal teshuvah, one who has worked to improve his connection to G-d and returned to his essential holy nature. The bent tzaddik is born righteous, but has not yet reached the level of a baal teshuvah. As we are told, even a complete tzaddik cannot stand in the place of a baal teshuvah.14 A baal teshuvah stands higher.
What does this mean? How is it possible that a baal teshuvah—one who has sinned all his life and then decides to change—stands higher than a tzaddik? There are two reasons. The first is that the one who has transgressed has already tasted cheeseburgers and lobster, and relished them. Now he must wrest himself from their grip. It is similar to the difficulty experienced by a long-time smoker who now wants to quit. There might be a certain temptation on the part of one who has never smoked to try a cigarette. But having never smoked, it is much easier for him to control the temptation. One who has already experienced its physical pleasure, however, might be hooked. It is very difficult to extirpate that aspect from his life, and it requires tremendous strength and commitment. Thus a baal teshuvah who was born to a non-religious home, who never learned anything about Judaism, and lives according to the secular ways of the world creates an elevated connection to G-d when he decides to change. G-d says, “You, My dear child, stand higher than the tzaddik.”
The second reason the baal teshuvah stands higher than the tzaddik is that the wrongdoings of the baal teshuvah are converted into mitzvos. Once his past sins have been renounced, they are actually credited as positive commandments.15
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13. See Sefer HaIkarim, book 3, chs. 8, 12.
14. Rambam’s Code of Jewish Law: Laws of Teshuvah 7:4.
15. There are three basic ways to acquire merit through the commandments: The first comprises the 248 positive, or active, commandments (i.e., doing something that has been commanded). The second includes the 365 negative, or passive, commandments (i.e., refraining from doing something prohibited). The third is the transformation of a negative commandment into a positive one (through the process of teshuvah or repentance).
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Dear Christiandom
Lisa,
Did you read the original post. It did not say that Christians are enemies. I do not see that... It asks for Christian missionaries to leave us alone. It says that we are just fine worshiping G-d. I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to that? The fact that we have been on the sharp end of the sword so many times in history is very sad. But the original post did not even exhibit any anger.
Honestly I think some people are just too sensitive. It is essential for Jews to be proud to be Jews and not be ashamed of it. Rabbi Kahane was intimately aware of this and he was 100% against intermarriage. Do our non-Jewish members consider that too to be anti-Christian? It is not anti-Christian, it is 100% pro-Jewish. In order to remain Jewish we need strong Jewish youth...I believe Rabbi Kahane was right.
What does this have to do with anything or that original post?
Why would I want a Jewish person not to be proud of being Jewish?
Ashamed? Why would they be ashamed?
On that note...Why should I be ashamed to be Catholic?
You Muman are a foolish man. I agree with JBeige. You want respect. Yet, you never stop being derogatory to the Christian members of this forum. Who do not missioninze or do anything but support the Jewish people. So you lead a good and decent life now. Great for you. Some of us have tried to do that our whole lives. Do we ask to be patted on the back for it. You are driving good and decent people from wishing to work with JTF. Especially touting posts like the original in this thread.
I'm sorry Lisa. I agree with JBeige.
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Dear ChristiandomWhat does this have to do with anything or that original post?
Why would I want a Jewish person not to be proud of being Jewish?
Ashamed? Why would they be ashamed?
On that note...Why should I be ashamed to be Catholic?
You Muman are a foolish man. I agree with JBeige. You want respect. Yet, you never stop being derogatory to the Christian members of this forum. Who do not missioninze or do anything but support the Jewish people. So you lead a good and decent life now. Great for you. Some of us have tried to do that our whole lives. Do we ask to be patted on the back for it. You are driving good and decent people from wishing to work with JTF. Especially touting posts like the original in this thread.
I'm sorry Lisa. I agree with JBeige.
Bullcat, what BS...
I was not derogatory to anyone... If anything you are constantly speaking of me in a derogatory manner. In this thread, or in any other thread, I have never called a Christian a bad name, have I said they are going to hell, or otherwise disparaged them. You on the other hand take every opportunity you can to attack me. I don't know what the heck your problem is... But look at the history of the messages and figure out what your problem is.
What have I said which 'drives people away from JTF'? Are you offended when a Jew says 'Its OK to be Jewish?'. It seems that you do. Every time I have expressed the idea that Jews have suffered at the hands of the Christian you, instead of feeling compassion you seek to justify or minimize it.
You really seem to want to have an issue with me.. That is really not my problem. My opinion of the original post stands.
Here is a reproduction of the post which Bullcat has issue with:
I dont see anything which is offensive in this post. It is 100% true... It is not a secret that Jews do not believe in the Christian 'messiah'... And maybe a gentile reader can understand that Jews are G-ds chosen people and do not deserve the disrespect we have been shown.
For those who find it offensive I am sorry... But the Jewish people found it offensive for 1000s of years to be subjected to the forced conversions, pogroms, crusades, and inquisitions. Rabbi Kahane was not shy to talk about these events nor should any Jew worth his world to come..
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Maybe I didn't use the right word, So I will say what I meant by that and you can label it.
I'm talking about some people on here who went to town drinking and smoking everything under the sun and taking drugs and never following the Torah and suddenly they follow it for a few years and suddenly they become these holy rollers that can preach about religion and the Big Bad Christians.
This goes for any religion, I don't believe in this born again and becoming a preacher stuff.
Sorry but anyone like that from any religion I can not take serious and their word and preaching should just be ignored.
I have to agree here... There is nothing worse than listening to stuff like this from a person who by their own word tell of how they spent a good part of their life doing things people just shouldn't do... It's all well and fine to warn people of living that sort of life style but to stand on a pedestal like some sort of rabbinic sage or clergy just rubs me wrong... muman you really need to stop your nonsense.... You have cause untold division here on this forum with your piling on to threads like this... If you wanted to preach you should have kept your past dealings a secret... The storm had me off the forum for a few days however I saw this thread tonight and it's just more of the same... Sorry if my post offends but this sort of nonsense causes our movement to loose ground.
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Jbeige, we've all done things in the past we haven't been proud of. But you chose to throw that in Muman's face. You owe him an apology.
No... I respectfully have to disagree here... Yes we have all done things we might not be proud of but that person should try to lead by example not preach from the pulpit like a TV missionary.... If we can't call a spade a spade here we may have drifted away from one of the policies that made JTF unique... Our forum use to attract a wide target of different people... It's threads like this that have caused many non Jewish people to loose interest in our movement.
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No... I respectfully have to disagree here... Yes we have all done things we might not be proud of but that person should try to lead by example not preach from the pulpit like a TV missionary.... If we can't call a spade a spade here we may have drifted away from one of the policies that made JTF unique... Our forum use to attract a wide target of different people... It's threads like this that have caused many non Jewish people to loose interest in our movement.
What have you been smoking mr cjd? I do not preach... Please show me where I have preached anything. I bring to the table what I have learned. What I have learned is Orthodox Judaism straight from the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud. I study the scriptures at least 2 hours a day, and if you have any questions about what I am talking about concerning Judaism you have had every opportunity to chime in, but you have not.
Please show me what it is you think I am 'preaching'? As I said before we have no such concept in Judaism. You learn from the sources, what Rabbi A said concerning Halacha, what argument Rabbi B had with Rabbi A, etc. I have brought abundant sources concerning my posts regarding Jewish law and faith. What exactly is it you have a problem with? I have never suggested I am a rabbi, and I learn from other Jews who are Torah scholars.
And my past was only revealed in order to show others that a person CAN change if he wishes himself to. I never was completely fallen, and I always was employed in my profession {over 26 years in my software engineering profession}. I have no regrets about what happened in my life because everything happened for a reason and I am currently living a good life and support my family and my community. I try to set an example to everyone around me, and I have succeeded in affecting people and I see the results.
You also did not say what exactly it is about this thread which is offensive. Would you mind exposing what the problem is instead of just attacking me?
I am very disappointed in you cjd... Why you find a need to denigrate me. I sure hope you are not Jewish.
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Sad to say for me I do smoke a few hand made cigars and a pipe now and then... I don't see them as causing what I wrote here to be any different then what it would normally be unless the pro pot people are sneaking something into my tobacco supply :::D muman it seems we have grown up in places that were quite different... Here in New York, the New York I grew up in anyway we never had this so called proselytizing situation that you folks outside of New York seem to deal with... Arguments, disagreements, seeing things from different angles yes, but for the most part Jew's and Gentiles here in New York got along quite well... It was sort of a Macy's, Gimbels thing of who had the better religion however nobody was trying to convert anybody... It's all well and fine that you were able to pull yourself back from the path your were on however it was not Gentiles that put you on that path and if there was temptation out there it was the same temptation that everyone else in the world has to deal with... The temptation was not designed to lure only Jews away from their religion... Look, The brass tacks of the issue is that you never fail to hop on the band wagon when it comes to this sort of thread... The original poster made a point and you true to form had to bring it to the next level... All I am going to say is the old Kahane Forum was a very boring place to spend time at... I only hope that is not the business model you have in mind for our forum... It's not enough to only shield our good members from being called proselytizers you need to name the names of the groups doing the proselytizing so we can all see them in action... Gentiles coming to our forum for the first time will be put off by all this blanket talk of proselytizing... It seems at times your even to much for the Jewish membership to deal with with some of the positions you take on things and yes you do alway back yourself up with Rabbinic opinions but there is a limit of how much of the so called "clip and post" people are willing to read... The political season for the presidential campaigns here in America are starting and I was wishing that JTF could play a big part in that online... That can never happen if we are going to run threads that drive people away with their fist visit to our forum.
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Muman...my forum name is BullCat.
I don't think you meant to be derogatory when you called me BullShot. Right?
I see you edited that right out of your post to CJD.
Typical.
I don't think you have the right to question my support of the Jewish people. Here in America or over in Israel. I'm not going to defend myself against the accusation that I support antisemitic behavior or the persecution of the Jewish people. That is just stupid.
My father (G-d bless him) taught me to have respect for the Jewish people.
My religious upbringing taught me nothing different.
You know that my support of the Jewish people is not an issue. Don't try to go there.
You make Christianity an issue every chance you get.
You.
Are you attempting to make Christians feel uncomfortable here?
I'm not going to allow you to do that. My problem with you lies right there.
Stop attacking Christianity or piling on. You never let the opportunity pass.
There are bigger issues for JTF to deal with than having the support of some Christians.
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Good Morning,
I have had some time last night to think about things and I would like to explain once again what my feelings are. First of all I would like to apologize once again to all those who feel that I am trying to offend them, or that I have any big problem or disdain for Christians. I would like to work things out because my feeling is that I often am misunderstood. I have tried to explain this before but I have failed to express what I really feel.
Also BC... I did get upset when I initially responded and I did take a snipe at you with that name.... I am human and I do get emotional and irrational when I get angry. It may be hard to believe but I have had problems with my temper and I do a lot of work trying to contain my anger in the hopes of being able to express the feelings in a positive manner. I always believe that there are two ways to solve a problem, either the negative destructive way, or the positive constructive way. I believe that we should always seek a positive constructive solution to problems.
I also think about what I post long after I post it. This is why I come back later and fix spelling and grammar errors, and if I say something which I regret I will remove it. I removed the snipe at you because I do not intend to provoke and prolong this disagreement. I would like to work toward mutual understanding.
I agree that this thread has devolved into something negative.. I understand that we have to work for the positive goal of changing the course of America by helping defeat Obama... I would enjoy working for that cause..
PS: I hope to write more to explain my apology later today...