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Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 23, 2012, 03:23:13 PM
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Rabbi David Bar-Hayim
HaGaon HaRav Yoseph Shalom Elyashiv z’l passed away recently at the age of 102. A renowned Tora scholar, the Rav was considered the ultimate authority in the ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world.
HaRav Elyashiv's singular devotion to Tora study was well known. My father went to HaRav Elyashiv 41 years ago to ask him a question. My father told me that the Rav heard the question, thought for a moment, gave his response, and immediately returned to the volume of the Talmud that was open before him. It was clear, said my father, that one could not impinge upon the rabbi's time more than absolutely necessary.
As the announcement of HaRav Elyashiv's passing was announced over a loudspeaker in my Jerusalem neighbourhood, I took note of the language used. An analysis of that language follows.
First there was a call for the Tora to gird itself in sackcloth (תורה, תורה, חיגרי שק). This is not unusual in such cases. What came next was more interesting. The following pasuq from M’ghilath Ekha (4:20) was paraphrased: רוּחַ אַפֵּינוּ מְשִׁיחַ ה', נִלְכַּד בִּשְׁחִיתוֹתָם: אֲשֶׁר אָמַרְנוּ, בְּצִלּוֹ נִחְיֶה בַגּוֹיִם. (Translation: “The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of HASHEM (=the Jewish nation's king, see Rashi and Ibn 'Ezra) has been ensnared in their pits; about whom we said: 'In his shadow we shall live among the nations.”) The paraphrased version, which involves a play on words, went like this: רוּחַ אַפֵּינוּ מְשִׁיחַ ה', אֲשֶׁר אָמַרְנוּ בְּצִלּוֹ נִחְיֶה, נִלְכַּד בִּשְׁחִיתוֹתֵינוּ. (Translation: “The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of HASHEM (= HaRav Elyashiv), about whom we said: 'In his shadow we shall live’, has been ensnared by our sins.”)
Two questions come to mind:
1. How does the king, the political leader of the Jewish nation, transmogrify into a Tora scholar who, while looked up to by hundreds of thousands of Jews, was certainly not the leader of 'Am Yisrael?
2. Is it reasonable to suggest that when a great rabbi dies at the age of 102 it is due to our sins? Did Moshe Rabenu die at the age of 120 due to someone’s sins or because HASHEM decreed that a human life-span will not exceed 120 (B’reshith 6:3)? Does the pasuq in Ekha not refer to a relatively young Jewish king whom the people hoped would continue to lead them for many years to come, but who would eventually die and pass his crown to his successor?
Regarding the first question, one needs to internalize that according to Haredi hashqapha (outlook), we are not a nation. We are simply a collection of communities. Communities don't have political leaders; they have no need of them. Jewish communities, according to the East European Galuth model, have rabbis; seeing that the Beth K'neseth and Beth Midrash are the only areas of public activity, the rabbi is the leader. And even though a rav is not a king, it's nice to pretend. (This is one reason for the tendency of Hasidim to treat their rebbes like royalty. The goyim had a king who held court, and the Jews wanted one too.) So Rav=king.
Regarding the second question, one must recognize that the Haredi world has developed the idea that great rabbis are practically immortal. "If the Rav died, we must have sinned." The idea that the Rav died because he was very old is apparently too exotic. So death=sin.
The announcement continued: HaRav Elyashiv was referred to as M'or HaGola (the Light of the Exile). While true that HaRav Elyashiv was born in Lithuania, he and his family moved to Y'rushalayim when he was 14 years old. His entire adult life was spent in Y'rushalayim. So why the Light of the Exile? The fact that many Jews outside Israel followed his rulings is true but irrelevant. The explanation is simple: according to the Haredi hashqapha, we, the Jewish people, wherever we live, are in Galuth. Galuth=Jewish existence. It follows that if one lives in Galuth, M'or HaGola is the highest accolade one could possibly bestow upon an individual. Even if you do live in Y'rushalayim.
Next the Rav was referred to as Poseq HaDor (the ultimate Halakhic authority of the generation), an appellation coined by the hard-line ‘Lithuanian’ Yathed Ne’eman newspaper in 2001 as part of their campaign to crown HaRav Elyashiv as leader of the ‘Lithuanian’ world after the passing of HaRav Shakh z’l. This too is very telling. From the point of view of the ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world the matter is clear: “We are the Tora world=We are the generation=the Rav was the ultimate authority of the generation.” The ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world is convinced that they, and only they, know what Tora Judaism really is and how it works. Put simply: the rest of us don’t count. And no, I do not overstate the matter.
More worrying to my mind is the following fact that I have noted ever since the Rav was hospitalized over 6 months ago. The religious but non-Haredi radio station Gale Yisrael adopted the ‘Lithuanian’ line and referred to HaRav Elyashiv as Poseq HaDor. One would have thought that Gale Yisrael, which caters to the national-religious (NR) crowd, would have known better. Maqor Rishon, a nationalist newspaper, got it right: they consistently referred to HaRav Elyashiv as Poseq HaDor HaLitta’i (the ultimate Halakhic authority of the ‘Lithuanian’ world), a precise and objective description.
There cannot be one, universally recognized and accepted Tora personality, or even a universally accepted Beth Din or collection of Tora scholars, for the obvious reason that there is no one, cohesive Tora world. There are multiple Tora worlds, or outlooks, each with its own agenda and priorities. To that extent the Haredim are correct: we continue, for the meantime, to our shame and detriment, to exist as independent communities or networks.
Who will be the new Poseq HaDor HaLitta’i? Almost certainly no-one. The Haredi world is in the throes of an historical upheaval and is monolithic no more. The cracks are not only visible; they are widening.
I shall, be’H, elaborate upon the goings-on in the Haredi world and its ramifications in coming blogs.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/608-the-ravs-blog-harav-elyashiv-zl-and-the-haredi-mind-part-01
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Very interesting. And indeed, they do believe they are the definition of Judaism and everything else is subpar treife, and they express that view constantly.
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Maybe I'll sound like a broken record around here.... But doesn't anyone really care that we are mourning the Temple during these nine days? What have the sages, at least most of the sages, said about the reason for the destruction and how to rectify it. I really try not to speak derogatorily about any sect of Judaism. Do we really need to join in speaking against Haredim? I don't.... I respect their lifestyle and I'll leave it at that...
http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/Formula_for_Jewish_Survival.html
http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/97833344.html
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Maybe I'll sound like a broken record around here.... But doesn't anyone really care that we are mourning the Temple during these nine days? What have the sages, at least most of the sages, said about the reason for the destruction and how to rectify it. I really try not to speak derogatorily about any sect of Judaism. Do we really need to join in speaking against Haredim? I don't.... I respect their lifestyle and I'll leave it at that...
http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/Formula_for_Jewish_Survival.html
http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/97833344.html
I never defamed their lifestyle or demand them to be like me. I pointed out what they themselves express... in their papers... in their loudspeakers, etc. They sincerely believe they are the epitome of Judaism and nothing else is relevant. That is why Jews like you and me must serve them while they sit and learn and "hold up the world." Is there a charedi Jew out there who does not agree to this point of view? And if so, can he even be called haredi?
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KWRBT,
I am not suggesting you did anything wrong. I just try to be a little careful about these kinds of things.
Indeed there are problems and I am not trying to ignore those problems.
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Regarding Tag-MehirTzedek's quote of Rabbi Bar-Hayim
Did Moshe Rabenu die at the age of 120 due to someone’s sins or because HASHEM decreed that a human life-span will not exceed 120 (B’reshith 6:3)?
Rashi interprets that verse, that there was a gap of 120 years between the decree that the flood would come and the actual flood.
There is no limitation of G-d to live past 120. Moshe's brother and sister lived past that age and see Divrei Hayim{Chronicles} II chapter 24 verse 15, where the Bible records that the righteous, Cohain Gadol, Yehoyada lived till age 130.
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Regarding the quote:
Regarding the second question, one must recognize that the Haredi world has developed the idea that great rabbis are practically immortal. "If the Rav died, we must have sinned." The idea that the Rav died because he was very old is apparently too exotic. So death=sin.
I will try to judge for the benefit of the doubt. There is a concept in Judaism that eventually the Jews will reach the spiritual level to rectify the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and nullify the decree of death in this world. Perhaps the Haredis were stressing the point that because the nation of Israel hasn't yet succeeded in reaching that spiritual level, death is still in place.
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Rabbi Bar-Hayim, shlit"a asks
How does the king, the political leader of the Jewish nation, transmogrify into a Tora scholar who, while looked up to by hundreds of thousands of Jews, was certainly not the leader of 'Am Yisrael?
There are places where the Talmud calls the Leading Rabbis of the generation, by the label, "Kings".
See Gittin 62a as an example.
This might be the Haredi application of this Talmudic statement.
There's room to argue if the application is or is not correct, but at least the Haredis have a source to rely on.
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Regarding Tag-MehirTzedek's quote of Rabbi Bar-HayimRashi interprets that verse, that there was a gap of 120 years between the decree that the flood would come and the actual flood.
There is no limitation of G-d to live past 120. Moshe's brother and sister lived past that age and see Divrei Hayim{Chronicles} II chapter 24 verse 15, where the Bible records that the righteous, Cohain Gadol, Yehoyada lived till age 130.
That completely misses the point. In spectacular fashion.
The rav's point is that old people die from old age. God created nature to operate as such. The denial of this concept was what he was addressing. Probably there is a shita that says God limited man's lifespan to 120, and maybe Rav Bar Hayim holds of that one so he presents it in this format. And there's probably a shita that it can get to 130, based on the fact you point out. And others probably hold of that. The difference is not relevant to this discussion, not even slightly. The point is that an old man, whether 102, or 120, or 130, dies from his old age over time, and not because "we sinned." As if Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if we behaved better? !?
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This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/bereishis.html
Adam Regrets His Gift to Dovid
The Medrash teaches that the Almighty showed Adam the history of mankind --each generation and its leaders. In the course of this "exhibition," Adam was shown the soul of Dovid HaMelech [King David] and the fact that he was destined to live only 3 hours. Adam was very grieved at this loss of potential. He inquired whether he was allowed to bequeath some of his own years to Dovid. The Almighty answered that Adam was destined to live for 1000 years, but that he would be allowed to give up some of those years to Dovid. Adam then bequeathed 70 years to Dovid, so that Adam lived for 930 years and Dovid lived for 70 years.
Chazal teach that when Adam was about to turn 930 years old, he regretted his earlier generosity and wanted to back out of the deal. G-d urged Adam to keep his word. G-d pointed out that Adam would have a descendant Yaakov who would make a vow and keep it. Ultimately, Adam agreed to keep his earlier vow.
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This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/bereishis.html
Okay but should be assume that an old man dieing is because of our sins? Don't you see a natural order to life where people usually aged 70 and up are expected to depart from this world? Even the 4 people who never comitted any sins died- Benyamin ben Yaakov, Yishai father of Dawidh, son of Dawid etc.
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Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?
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This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.
Is Hashem also the author of Bereshith 6:3 ? Or are you going to tell God that He can't say man has a limited lifespan?
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Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?
So the leading haredi torah sage is equated to moshe rabenu now, too?
........
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Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?
This is what (Well quick google translation I found, their are many that says this)
" But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the LORD said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter. "
What is your point? i thought this was talking about entering Eretz Yisrael of which Moshe was not allowed.
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Jerusalem bible translation of 3:26
"But the L-rd was angry with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the L-rd said to me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more to me on this matter".
To supplement this see Rabbeinu Bachayei's commentary about the simple meaning.
See also Dvarim 32 verses 50 to 52, where again the point is made that sin caused Moshe to die and see Dvarim 34 verse 6, that the Torah stresses there that his body was in great shape not showing signs of old age, when he died, thus again stressing that his death was due to sin and not old age.
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I believe that when Moshe said to Korach "You have enough" that this was viewed as the improper response to Korach and Moses was told "Enough" when he was praying so that he could enter the land. See Sotah 13b...
http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/moshe.htm
Gd told Moses, "You have enough [Rav Lach]," as a punishment for Moses having told Korach, "You have enough." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "You now have a master [Joshua]." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "It is enough; don't make me appear too harsh": Sotah 13b
Excerpt from Sotah13b
WHOM HAVE WE GREATER THAN MOSES etc. And the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee.19 R. Levi said: With the word 'suffice' [Moses] made an announcement and with the word 'suffice' an announcement was made to him. With the word 'suffice' he made an announcement: 'Suffice you';20 and with the word 'suffice' an announcement was made to him: 'Let it suffice thee'. Another explanation of 'Let it suffice [rab] thee' is, Thou hast a master [rab], viz., Joshua.21 Another explanation of 'Let it suffice thee' is, That people should not say: How severe the Master is and how persistent the pupil is.22 And why so? In the School of R. Ishmael it was taught: According to the camel is the burden.23
And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day.24 Why does the text state 'this day?' [The meaning is], This day are my days and years completed.25 Its purpose is to teach you that the Holy One, blessed be He, completes the years of the righteous from day to day, and from month to month; for it is written: The number of thy days I will fulfil.26 I can no more go out and come in24 — what means 'go out and come in'? If it is to be understood literally, behold it is written: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated;27 it is also written: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo;28 and it has been taught: Twelve steps were there, but Moses mounted them in one stride! — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: [It means] to 'go out and come in' with words of Torah, thus indicating that the gates of wisdom were closed against him.
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This is what (Well quick google translation I found, their are many that says this)
" But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the LORD said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter. "
What is your point? i thought this was talking about entering Eretz Yisrael of which Moshe was not allowed.
That is indeed what the pasuk is about. The rabbis talk about how Moshe kept davening over and over again requesting Hashem's permission to enter until finally Hashem says drop the matter.
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Sota 13b says he lived a full life and died at 120 years of age precisely on the day he was born, because that is what happens with righteous people. Quite the opposite of saying he died because of sin.
Should we ignore this and radically reinterpret some more verses in a forced way instead?
I haven't yet seen the above referenced rabenu bachye but I have a very hard time accepting the proposed understanding by edu. Doesn't seem to fit.
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Sota 13b says he lived a full life and died at 120 years of age precisely on the day he was born, because that is what happens with righteous people. Quite the opposite of saying he died because of sin.
Should we ignore this and radically reinterpret some more verses in a forced way instead?
I haven't yet seen the above referenced rabenu bachye but I have a very hard time accepting the proposed understanding by edu. Doesn't seem to fit.
Did you learn anything from todays Parasha?
Moshe was not allowed to go into the land BECAUSE OF THE SIN of striking the rock, and not talking to it. This sin was caused by his own transgression, along with the sin of the people for mocking Moshe when he spoke to it and it didn't give forth the water. Rabbi Pinchas Winston explained this facet in a video I posted last week. What Edu pointed out above is that due to the combined personal and national sin, Moshe was not permitted to enter the land.
Although there is a medresh I heard which explains that Moshe asked Hashem why his prayer was not granted and Hashem explained that if Moshe were to go into the land then Hashem would destroy his people. Because when the Sin of the Golden calf occured Moshe davened for forgiveness when Hashem said he wanted to destroy the entire nation and make Moshe a great nation. Because of Hashem granting them forgiveness at that time Moshe was not allowed to enter. If Moshe were to enter then the Temple which Moshe build would be eternal, and Hashems anger would be taken out on the nation. Because Moshe did not enter the land, Hashem was able to take out his anger on the building and not on the people.
This is a lesson I learned this Shabbat...
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The verses cited by edu in devarim chapter 31 and 32 all refer to Moshe's punishment of not getting to enter Eretz Yisrael. This is of course due to sin. Already in last week's parsha which we read this morning (v'etchanan) this idea is mentioned and picked up in the commentaries. Overwhelmingly the commentaries associate the sin(s) of Moshe with his punishment of not going into the land, and this seems a very obvious slam dunk interpretation. Attaching death as his punishment requires a lot of twisting and turning, leaving aside the fact that no haredi or other scholar can be compared with Moshe rabenu. I just do not see it in the verses at all but it still wouldn't explain away the obvious here, even if you could by some forced stretch impose that reading on the verses as an alternative. The obvious I refer to is: edu, do you actually believe that Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if Jews behaved better?
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I see your concern before I post this and I agree I do not compare any Rabbi in our generation to Moshe Rebbeinu... But this is a theoretical discussion concerning whether death of a tzadik is punishment for a sin...
Here is an expression of what I was explaining in the post I made above. From Ohr.edu....
http://ohr.edu/this_week/ask_the_rabbi/2774
Perhaps this can help us understand your question regarding Moshe. Relative to Moshe's extremely lofty spiritual position, his becoming angry with the Jewish people, calling them "rebels" and deviating from G-d's command to speak to the rock by hitting it instead, was tantamount to disbelief in G-d and to chillul Hashem – a desecration of G-d's name. This is implied in the verse, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of Israel, therefore you shall not bring them into the Land" (Num. 20:12). In fact, chillul Hashem is considered one of the gravest offences, and is so described by Rambam in his Laws of Teshuva. Even though Moshe surely did the highest form of teshuva m'ahava – repentance out of love for G-d, not fear of punishment — this apparently was not enough to fully atone for the (relative) severity of his act, and perhaps the decree that he be barred from entering the Land of Israel was needed for a complete atonement.
That being said, the words of Midrash Yalkut Shimoni (Parshat V'etchanan) are very illuminating. In discussing Moshe's 515 prayers to repeal the decree, the Midrash portrays in great detail the dialogue between Moshe and G-d in the prophet's plea to enter the Land. After hearing Moshe's very compelling arguments, G-d finally replies that either he'll have to die outside the land or the Jewish people will have to die. This enigmatic response may be explained as follows:
If Moshe and Aharon would enter the Land, the Temple they would build would be eternal. However, G-d saw that the Jewish people would eventually greatly sin and be liable for destruction. The destruction of the Temple was thus necessary as a means of arousing Jews to repent. Had it not been vulnerable to destruction, harsher measures against Jewry would have been required. For this reason Moshe was prevented from entering the Land.
According to this, Moshe's teshuva effected complete atonement for himself. Still, he was barred from entering Israel for the ultimate good of the Jewish people. When Moshe understood this, he made the ultimate sacrifice for the people he so loved and prayed no more to repeal the decree.
My understanding of all of this is that Moshe could have entered the land, he was not physically incapable of making the cross over to the Jordan, but because of what happened he was not destined to lead the Jews into the land.
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Did you learn anything from todays Parasha?
Excuse me? You may need to go back and reread this thread because you demonstrate a misunderstanding of the positions being presented here.
Moshe was not allowed to go into the land BECAUSE OF THE SIN of striking the rock, and not talking to it.
The nature of the sin and precisely what it was is heavily debated among the scholars. You have chosen one valid view of the sin.
Indeed, for his sin, whatever it was, he was not allowed into the land. I never once argued against that.
I DID argue against the idea that Moshe DIED because of sin. (Or that Hashem punished his sin w death rather than the punishment to not enter the land).
Please read carefully before jumping to attack me.
Also note the fact that you have not posted anything which contradicts me. At least not up until this point. Also note that nothing you posted thus far lends any support to edu's claim.
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KWRBT,
I am sorry if you feel I was attacking you personally. This is not my intention and if my words were not appropriate I ask your forgiveness.
But on this topic let us clarify our positions...
1) I believe that Edu and I are arguing that Moses did not die because of 'old age' or any physical issue with Moses body. We suggest {according to sources} that Moses died because of the combined sins of his striking the rock, and the sins of the people {Sin of Golden Calf, Sin of Spies, complaining, etc.}.
2) I suspect you are arguing against this and saying that because Moses was 120 that he was 'old' and it was natural for him to die at that time.
The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.
Bamidbar 27:12-14
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.
There are many sources in the Talmud which explain some of this. I found this page from WebShas which discusses the Talmuds insights concerning the end of Moses life:
http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/moshe.htm
Moses Striking the Rock [Merivah]
Moses wanting his sin to be recorded in the Torah: Yoma 86b
Pharaoh had the boys thrown in the river because his astrologers informed him that the Jews' redeemer would die by water. In fact, this prophecy referred to Moses's problem with the Waters of Merivah, when he hit the rock: Sotah 12b
The Last Year in the Desert
Moses's desire to set up the cities of refuge: Makkot 10a
Gd's promise to Moses that Moses would get to establish cities of refuge: Makkot 12b
Gd was exacting in punishing Moses because that is the way He deals with very righteous people: Sotah 13b
Gd told Moses, "You have enough [Rav Lach]," as a punishment for Moses having told Korach, "You have enough." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "You now have a master [Joshua]." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "It is enough; don't make me appear too harsh": Sotah 13b
Why Moses wanted to make it into Israel: Sotah 14a
Moses's desire to fulfill the Mitzvot which may only be performed in Israel, and Gd's response: Sotah 14a
Moses climbed Mount Nebo (Har Nevo) on the day of his death in a single bound: Sotah 13b
Moses did not weaken physically toward death, but Gd sealed the gates of wisdom from him: Sotah 13b
On the last day of Moses's life, Gd took authority from him and gave it to Yehoshua, so that the two ruled on that day: Sotah 13b
The date of Moses's death: Megillah 13b; Kiddushin 38a; Sotah 12b
Moses received his full allotment of years, dying at the end of 120 years: Sotah 13b
Moses died with a "kiss" from Gd: Moed Katan 28a
Did Moses really die: Sotah 13b
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Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah concerning the dialog between Hashem and Moshe before Moshe was gathered back to his people...
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default_cdo/aid/53120/jewish/In-Depth.htm
But G‑d was angry with me for your sakes (3:26)
G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."
When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .
When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!
(Midrash Rabbah)
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But the sources you again provided deal with Moshe not entering the land of Israel and not about dying. Anyway how can we compare any Rabbi today with Moshe Rabbeinu. People die, it is called nature. For some to display shock of a 102 year old man passing away is, quite frankly shocking.
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But the sources you again provided deal with Moshe not entering the land of Israel and not about dying. Anyway how can we compare any Rabbi today with Moshe Rabbeinu. People die, it is called nature. For some to display shock of a 102 year old man passing away is, quite frankly shocking.
Tag,
The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.
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Tag,
The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.
Isn't it saying that the punishment is precisely that Moshe cannot enter the land of Israel. In fact we also find that the last thing Moshe did was take revenge against Midian and that is what g-D told Moshe to do. to take revenge against Midian and then Moshe would go to the next world. Moshe did this enthusiastically even though it was his last mission in this world.
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Isn't it saying that the punishment is precisely that Moshe cannot enter the land of Israel. In fact we also find that the last thing Moshe did was take revenge against Midian and that is what g-D told Moshe to do. to take revenge against Midian and then Moshe would go to the next world. Moshe did this enthusiastically even though it was his last mission in this world.
Tag,
What you say is true but you realize that Vaetchanan occurs after the battle with Midian when Moshe is beseeching Hashem to rescind the decree. The point is that Moshe had to die, not because he was too old to live anymore, but because of the sins..
The verse I quoted explains that it is because of the sin that he will be 'gathered to his people' which means to die. In yesterdays Parasha we learn that Moshe davened 515 times to rescind this decree, and Hashem said 'Enough' meaning that Hashem could not permit Moshe from entering the land. As I explained in two of the above postings and Rabbi Richman explains in the video I will post below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3UXvYlpKO4
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Tag,
The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.
Those verses are clearly saying MOSHE DOES NOT GET TO ENTER THE LAND BECAUSE OF HIS SINNING.
All the commentaries pretty much agree with me. I don't know where you're getting yours from.
Is it a punishment to be "gathered to your people like aharon was?!" NO! It is simply the end of Moshe's life and the sefer says over and over again specifically that Hashem only allowed him to look at the land, not enter it.
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The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.
Bamidbar 27:12-14
You are confused and you haven't brought any proof to your claim.
Moshe explains to us himself in his own words that G-d punished him by nnot getting to enter the land, and he kept davening to be permitted until Hashem told him "enough" about this, you are not going in.
He was not begging to be kept alive.
I have already explained the Talmud supports the obvious position because it says moshe lived the full life of a righteous person dying on his birthday at age 120. You have no way to contradict that. In fact, you actually posted it (AGAIN!) in support of the view I am presenting.
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Bamidbar 27:12-14
...and...
Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah
Muman, you quote and you quote and you quote, but either you don't bother to read it before you post it or you simply do not care that none of what you block quote and paste here lends any credence to your position!
Look, if it's your own personal conviction, fine, you can believe it all you want, but do not claim it is the position of chazal or the commentaries, or the Torah itself just because it's your own personal opinion only, and certainly don't do this and then quote from chazal and commentaries which simply do not say what you are saying. You present it as if it is "evidence" for your view or a "source" for it, when all I have to do is take the time to read through it and I see, it says nothing of the sort. So why do you waste my time to read through what is essentially spam (in that case) which doesn't give backing to your position at all but is simply noise?
Did YOU take the time to read through it before you posted it?
If you are going to quote from something, quote something that actually supports what you claim!
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Tag,
The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
So first you assume your own view must be "pshat" (which I think it clearly isn't if you have read the whole parsha, and many other parshiyot) and then you suggest that Tag is in "denial" for not agreeing to your concept which of course MUST BE the only way to read that verse.
And then you will say you didn't intend insult, right?
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KWRBT,
You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.
Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...
First of all in Medrash Rabbah:
G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."
When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .
When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!
(Midrash Rabbah)
Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying? Maybe you discount this Medrash? It seems that Moses would rather die than have Hashem destroy the entire Jewish people. This implies that he could have lived if he agreed with Hashem on this...
It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert. I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.
Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer. It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed, and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die. His death was because of the combined sin of the people, and the sin of chillul hashem when he struck the rock.
But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...
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Excerpt from Sotah 13B
http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_13.html
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And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day.24 Why does the text state 'this day?' [The meaning is], This day are my days and years completed.25 Its purpose is to teach you that the Holy One, blessed be He, completes the years of the righteous from day to day, and from month to month; for it is written: The number of thy days I will fulfil.26 I can no more go out and come in24 — what means 'go out and come in'? If it is to be understood literally, behold it is written: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated;27 it is also written: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo;28 and it has been taught: Twelve steps were there, but Moses mounted them in one stride! — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: [It means] to 'go out and come in' with words of Torah, thus indicating that the gates of wisdom were closed against him.
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One more thought along the lines of death for sin...
What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?
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http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm
Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.
The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.
According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.
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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.
http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html
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Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.
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From Daf Yomi Shabbat 55
2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?
(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";
1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)
1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)
(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.
PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...
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I will leave it at this.... There is support for the opinion that Moshe did not have to die because of sin. But I find the explanation more enlightening than any other explanation because otherwise it would seem cruel that Moses had to die.
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Here is an excerpt from the relevant portion of Tractate Shabbat 55:
http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_55.html
55A
R. Ammi said: There is no death without sin,27 and there is no suffering without iniquity. There is no death without sin, for it is written, The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, etc.,28 There is no suffering without iniquity, for it is written, Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.29
55B
An objection is raised: The ministering angels asked the Holy One, blessed be He: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why didst Thou impose the penalty of death upon Adam?' Said He to them, I gave him an easy command, yet he violated it.' 'But Moses and Aaron fulfilled the whole Torah,' they pursued — 'yet they died'. 'There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good, etc.,1 He replied.2 — He maintains as the following Tanna. For it was taught: R. Simeon b. Eleazar said: Moses and Aaron too died through their sin, for it is said, Because ye believed not in me[...therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them]:3 hence, had ye believed in Me, your time had not yet come to depart from the world.4
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KWRBT,
You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.
No, that is not clear. It is clear that Hashem told him he will not. Enter the land but only see it. Just like Moshe informs us in many other places!
How am I beating around the bush? Is it a burning bush or a regular one?
Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...
First of all in Medrash Rabbah:
Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying?
I see pretty well that the whole point of that midrash is that Moshe can't enter the land! And he says fine let me die without getting into the land first, so that klal yisrael doesn't have to get a decree against it.
The question is not whether Moshe will die or not die. Did you think he would live forever? The end of his life has come and it is his time to go. The Torah even tells us that. The question is, before he dies, will he get to walk into eretz Yisrael as he has been beseeching Hashem to allow him, or will he only get to see the land before he dies?
You misunderstand the midrash.
It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert.
Yes die in the desert rather than die in eretz yisrael, after having entered it.
I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.
Um, no. He "wants to die" without entering the land in this midrash to teach you that had Hashem relented to his request it would have put more danger onto the Jews. (Other commentaries explain that later on when we would sin in eretz yisrael, we would have been destroyed instead of exiled had Moshe's request to enter been granted. The midrash is teaching you Moshe could only ask G-d for so much and could only get so much. He did not actually "ask to die," obviously that's not said explicitly in any verse. Its saying he had a choice when he was told to stop persisting in his request TO ENTER THE LAND.
Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer.
Lived longer? The Talmud says he lived a full life. He had already had the "gates of wisdom closed to him" according to Talmud. Obviously that is something to do with the aging process. How much longer are you talking? A day? A week? What point is that exactly? IF HE WAS GOING TO LIVE ANY LONGER IT WAS ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO ENTER ERETZ YISRAEL. HIS PUNISHMENT WAS NOT "you live one week less" , his punishment was "you die before getting into the land"
It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed,
Actually that's not a simple reading of anything. That's a homiletic interpretation added by a midrash. Do not confuse drash and pshat. Simple pshat of his eye not dimming would be that his eyesight didn't diminish. Unlike some other biblical heroes such as yaakov and his father yitzhak, both of whom lose their vision in their old age.
and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die.
So if a person's mind deteriorates but his arms are still strong that means he is not aging? The same midrash you cite says his mind weakened!
But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...
I know you are but what am I?
I have addressed these points from the beginning you just fail to see that you have no help from what you cite.
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http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm
Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.
The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.
According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.
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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.
http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html
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Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.
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From Daf Yomi Shabbat 55
2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?
(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";
1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)
1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)
(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.
PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...
Please reread what you have in bold.
Note that the first part agrees with me exactly. Because that is how one reads the verses. Its pretty clear. That's why they ask that question. Based on reading what the Torah says. The answers get creative to answer the kasiyas, that's how Talmud functions. Notice that some tannaim hold differently from your bolded answer. But now let's focus on your bolded answer.
Now focus on the answer - it still agrees with me. You would not have to die NOW. But you would still die eventually, only after getting into the land. (Maybe a week later? Maybe a month? We don't know but there is no implication that he would not have died!) Ask yourself, why did he put the word "now" in his reply, and it will all become clear to you.
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One more thought along the lines of death for sin...
What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?
Um but wouldn't you say according to that understanding that there is death in the world because of adam and chava. So in other words All people die because of Adam and chava. That only gives an ontological explanation for the reality we see - which is that old people die. And everyone sins in their lifetime. Still doesn't mean Moshe would have lived forever if not for the rock incident. The talmud sotah13b which you quote 100 times in this thread says he lived a full and complete life! 120 yrs from the day of his birth.
And even one Talmudic discussion you cite (one which I have never totally understood but also didn't look into in depth) cites a few individuals who died "without sin" in their lifetimes (of course if you look at the examples that could easily just mean that there is no sin recorded and presented by the Torah! Not necessairly that they didn't sin).
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And in all this discussion you have failed to indicate how it is (or how it could be) that our sins (the sins of the Jewish people) caused Rabbi Eliyashiv zt"l to die.
Even where these sages homiletically render the verses, clearly for reasons Other Than obtaining pshat understanding, none of them claim that someone else's sins have caused Moshe to die without seeing the land (or as you are arguing, die early). So where exactly does the claim come from that our sins caused Rav Eliashiv to die?
Do you believe he would have lived til 120 if not for things we have done? If so, what are those things and why ? I don't think we can try to calculate G-d's decisions in matters of life and death such as this. And this is precisely what we should learn from some of those midrashim you cite. "No death without sin" is a concept - everyone sins, and death is in the world because of sins. It doesn't give you calculations and lifespans based on what sin person x did or didn't do.
What I see is that old people die, and Moshe's time had come, just as the Talmud Sotah 13b tells us. The question was, will he get to enter EY before he dies? G-d only allowed him to SEE IT before he died.
Its not anyone's place to speculate about sins of a deceased Torah sage, and for one thing I obviously don't think he had a "shortened lifespan" (wouldn't it be an insult to his honor even suggest or consider that?) for whatever deeds.
1. That's not what happened with Moshe.
2. He is not Moshe. And biblical times and figures were different (even lesser biblical figures had much more direct treatment than we do).
3. Old people die and after a full life, its quite the opposite of a shortened lifespan.
4. Certainly no connection to sins of other people and unfair to punish him for a sin by you or me or random Jewish guy.
5. Even if you disagree with ALL 4 other points, AND you think rabbi eliashiv never committed a sin in his life (who knows? Maybe!), still it makes no sense to think he would have lived forever because no one does.
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According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.
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According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.
That time has not yett come. When mentioning Rav Elyashiv's death and age of 102 not 1 person responds, woow what a young fellow.
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We are making new medical discoveries all the time and the average age that people in advanced countries are living to is going up.
My guess is that sometime within the next hundred years we will discover, medical cures and techniques to vastly increase the life span of the average man.
How quickly we discover these techniques might be affected by the spiritual merits of the generation.
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We are making new medical discoveries all the time and the average age that people in advanced countries are living to is going up.
My guess is that sometime within the next hundred years we will discover, medical cures and techniques to vastly increase the life span of the average man.
How quickly we discover these techniques might be affected by the spiritual merits of the generation.
I know and agree on that. Those discoveries and time has not arrived yett. I'm still not shocked that someone died at 102, actually surprised the other way around that someone passed 100.
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I know and agree on that. Those discoveries and time has not arrived yett. I'm still not shocked that someone died at 102, actually surprised the other way around that someone passed 100.
I know a man in my Minyan, Colonel Phil, who is 98 and he is fully functional and takes care of himself. He has lived a healthy life, served in our military during WWII, and I am proud to know him...
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I know a man in my Minyan, Colonel Phil, who is 98 and he is fully functional and takes care of himself. He has lived a healthy life, served in our military during WWII, and I am proud to know him...
Very good, he is an exemption and that is why you are mentioning him.
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That time has not yett come. When mentioning Rav Elyashiv's death and age of 102 not 1 person responds, woow what a young fellow.
A very key point in response to what edu posted. No one on earth today thinks 102 is a shortened lifespan, especially considering the average lifespan for women in America is 70 something, and for men I think it's 60-something. Or maybe lower 70's. Either way, women live longer on average.
And if someone lives a life longer than average lifespan, who in their right mind would accuse them of having their lifespan shortened?
In addition, why would anyone think that any person or any rabbi would live forever as a default option? Doesn't Judaism say that after the sin of adam and eve, man can no longer live forever, and thus what we experience is that people always die, without exception?
Lastly, I'm sure the very same people who tell us we're not in the process or beginning stages of redemption despite the fact that some promises of the prophets have been fulfilled and millions of Jews now live in a rejuvenated Eretz Yisrael, these same people will cite us what edu cited Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 and say these vague words about lifespan have already been fulfilled? And therefore Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if not for sins of other people? Zero logic involved here.
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KWRBT,
Consider this discussion of Moshes death... According to this Moses did not need to die, his body was not weak nor did it cease to function properly... This discussion revolves around the term used by the Torah to describe Moses death:
http://www.ravkooktorah.org/VEZOT63.htm
VeZot HaBrachah: Moses' Death
Two Terms for Death
The Torah employs different words for death. The most commonly used term is mitah, but occasionally the Torah uses the word geviah, usually translated as 'expiring.' What is the difference between the two?
The Talmud in Baba Batra 16b notes that the Torah uses both terms when describing the deaths of Abraham and Isaac. The Sages understood that this Biblical syntax indicates that a righteous individual has passed away. Why is that?
This conclusion is especially difficult in light of the Torah's account of Moses' death. There the Torah only uses the word mitah — "and Moses died there" (Deut. 34:5). Why didn't Moses merit to have his demise described as geviah? Was he less righteous than Abraham and Isaac?
Geviah and Mitah
Rav Kook explained that geviah and mitah refer to two distinct aspects of death. One concerns the effect of death on the body, while the second indicates its effect on the soul.
With regard to the body, death is the natural cessation of the body's powers and continued functioning. This aspect of death is referred to as geviah, expiring.
As for the soul, death terminates the soul's bond to the body and its control over it. This is called mitah.
Both aspects of death do not always occur. Not everyone succeeds in reaching the natural end of his body's powers. The wicked who die before their allotted time due to their actions, have hastened their own physical passing. Geviah is the natural expiration of the body in its proper time, without some ruinous force hastening its demise. Therefore, geviah only occurs with the righteous.
On the other hand, mitah, the break between the soul and the body, applies to all people, righteous and wicked alike. After the sin of Adam, it became essential for the soul to recover from the negative influences and distractions of the body. Life in our physical world impresses upon the soul damaging images, distancing the soul from true closeness to God. To rectify these influences, death severs the soul's connection to the physical body, neutralizing the influence of those emotions and material desires. Only then can the soul be cleansed and made ready to accept the brilliant light from God's Presence.
Moses' Death
Unlike other righteous tzaddikim, Moses succeeded in overcoming the legacy of Adam's sin. At Mount Sinai, he was able to go without food and water for 40 days. Even after 120 years, his body did not need to die. His physical functions were still at full strength, as the Torah attests, "His eyes had not dimmed and his natural powers had not left him" (Deut. 34:7). Therefore, the Torah does not use the word geviah to describe the natural expiration of Moses' body.
Moses only needed the second aspect of death, for his soul to be severed from the body and its influences. And even that necessity was due solely to his connection to the Erev Rav, the Mixed Multitudes whom he allowed to join in the exodus from Egypt (Zohar Gen. 25a).
(Adapted from Midbar Shur, pp. 242-249)
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Muman I did not read your last post, but, Moshe died, and he was certainly not Moshe.
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Tag,
As I stated earlier in this thread... I am not arguing about Rabbi Elyashiv in particular but a question of whether death comes due to sin. I never intended to say that Rabbi Elyashiv was on the level of Moshe {which is obvious}...