HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But the sources you again provided deal with Moshe not entering the land of Israel and not about dying. Anyway how can we compare any Rabbi today with Moshe Rabbeinu. People die, it is called nature. For some to display shock of a 102 year old man passing away is, quite frankly shocking.

[muman613]

But the sources you again provided deal with Moshe not entering the land of Israel and not about dying. Anyway how can we compare any Rabbi today with Moshe Rabbeinu. People die, it is called nature. For some to display shock of a 102 year old man passing away is, quite frankly shocking.

Tag,

The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14

12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag,

The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14

12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.

 Isn't it saying that the punishment is precisely that Moshe cannot enter the land of Israel. In fact we also find that the last thing Moshe did was take revenge against Midian and that is what g-D told Moshe to do. to take revenge against Midian and then Moshe would go to the next world. Moshe did this enthusiastically even though it was his last mission in this world.

[muman613]

Isn't it saying that the punishment is precisely that Moshe cannot enter the land of Israel. In fact we also find that the last thing Moshe did was take revenge against Midian and that is what g-D told Moshe to do. to take revenge against Midian and then Moshe would go to the next world. Moshe did this enthusiastically even though it was his last mission in this world.

Tag,
What you say is true but you realize that Vaetchanan occurs after the battle with Midian when Moshe is beseeching Hashem to rescind the decree. The point is that Moshe had to die, not because he was too old to live anymore, but because of the sins..

The verse I quoted explains that it is because of the sin that he will be 'gathered to his people' which means to die. In yesterdays Parasha we learn that Moshe davened 515 times to rescind this decree, and Hashem said 'Enough' meaning that Hashem could not permit Moshe from entering the land. As I explained in two of the above postings and Rabbi Richman explains in the video I will post below...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag,

The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
Bamidbar 27:12-14

12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.

Those verses are clearly saying MOSHE DOES NOT GET TO ENTER THE LAND BECAUSE OF HIS SINNING.
All the commentaries pretty much agree with me.  I don't know where you're getting yours from.
Is it a punishment to be "gathered to your people like aharon was?!"  NO!  It is simply the end of Moshe's life and the sefer says over and over again specifically that Hashem only allowed him to look at the land, not enter it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.

Bamidbar 27:12-14

You are confused and you haven't brought any proof to your claim.

Moshe explains to us himself in his own words that G-d punished him by nnot getting to enter the land, and he kept davening to be permitted until Hashem told him "enough" about this, you are not going in.

He was not begging to be kept alive.

I have already explained the Talmud supports the obvious position because it says moshe lived the full life of a righteous person dying on his birthday at age 120.  You have no way to contradict that.  In fact, you actually posted it (AGAIN!) in support of the view I am presenting.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Bamidbar 27:12-14

...and...
Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah

Muman, you quote and you quote and you quote, but either you don't bother to read it before you post it or you simply do not care that none of what you block quote and paste here lends any credence to your position!

Look, if it's your own personal conviction, fine, you can believe it all you want, but do not claim it is the position of chazal or the commentaries, or the Torah itself just because it's your own personal opinion only, and certainly don't do this and then quote from chazal and commentaries which simply do not say what you are saying.   You present it as if it is "evidence" for your view or a "source" for it, when all I have to do is take the time to read through it and I see, it says nothing of the sort.   So why do you waste my time to read through what is essentially spam (in that case)  which doesn't give backing to your position at all but is simply noise?

Did YOU take the time to read through it before you posted it?

If you are going to quote from something, quote something that actually supports what you claim!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag,

The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...

So first you assume your own view must be "pshat" (which I think it clearly isn't if you have read the whole parsha, and many other parshiyot) and then you suggest that Tag is in "denial" for not agreeing to your concept which of course MUST BE the only way to read that verse. 
And then you will say you didn't intend insult, right?

[muman613]

KWRBT,

You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.

Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...

First of all in Medrash Rabbah:

G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."

When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .

When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!

(Midrash Rabbah)

Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying? Maybe you discount this Medrash? It seems that Moses would rather die than have Hashem destroy the entire Jewish people. This implies that he could have lived if he agreed with Hashem on this...

It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert. I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.

Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer. It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed, and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die. His death was because of the combined sin of the people, and the sin of chillul hashem when he struck the rock.

But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...

[muman613]

Excerpt from Sotah 13B
http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_13.html

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And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day.24  Why does the text state 'this day?' [The meaning is], This day are my days and years completed.25  Its purpose is to teach you that the Holy One, blessed be He, completes the years of the righteous from day to day, and from month to month; for it is written: The number of thy days I will fulfil.26  I can no more go out and come in24  — what means 'go out and come in'? If it is to be understood literally, behold it is written: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated;27  it is also written: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo;28  and it has been taught: Twelve steps were there, but Moses mounted them in one stride! — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: [It means] to 'go out and come in' with words of Torah, thus indicating that the gates of wisdom were closed against him.
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[muman613]

One more thought along the lines of death for sin...

What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?

[muman613]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm

Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.

The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.

According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.

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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.


http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html

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Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.

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From Daf Yomi Shabbat  55

2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?

(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";

1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)

1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)

(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.


PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...

[muman613]

I will leave it at this.... There is support for the opinion that Moshe did not have to die because of sin. But I find the explanation more enlightening than any other explanation because otherwise it would seem cruel that Moses had to die.

[muman613]

Here is an excerpt from the relevant portion of Tractate Shabbat 55:

http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_55.html

55A

R. Ammi said: There is no death without sin,27  and there is no suffering without iniquity. There is no death without sin, for it is written, The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, etc.,28  There is no suffering without iniquity, for it is written, Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.29

55B

An objection is raised: The ministering angels asked the Holy One, blessed be He: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why didst Thou impose the penalty of death upon Adam?' Said He to them, I gave him an easy command, yet he violated it.' 'But Moses and Aaron fulfilled the whole Torah,' they pursued — 'yet they died'. 'There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good, etc.,1  He replied.2  — He maintains as the following Tanna. For it was taught: R. Simeon b. Eleazar said: Moses and Aaron too died through their sin, for it is said, Because ye believed not in me[...therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them]:3  hence, had ye believed in Me, your time had not yet come to depart from the world.4

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.

No, that is not clear.  It is clear that Hashem told him he will not. Enter the land but only see it.  Just like Moshe informs us in many other places!

How am I beating around the bush?  Is it a burning bush or a regular one?

Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...

First of all in Medrash Rabbah:

Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying?

I see pretty well that the whole point of that midrash is that Moshe can't enter the land!  And he says fine let me die without getting into the land first, so that klal yisrael doesn't have to get a decree against it.

The question is not whether Moshe will die or not die.  Did you think he would live forever?  The end of his life has come and it is his time to go.  The Torah even tells us that.  The question is, before he dies, will he get to walk into eretz Yisrael as he has been beseeching Hashem to allow him, or will he only get to see the land before he dies?

You misunderstand the midrash.

It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert.

Yes die in the desert rather than die in eretz yisrael, after having entered it.

I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.

Um, no.  He "wants to die" without entering the land in this midrash to teach you that had Hashem relented to his request it would have put more danger onto the Jews.  (Other commentaries explain that later on when we would sin in eretz yisrael, we would have been destroyed instead of exiled had Moshe's request to enter been granted.  The midrash is teaching you Moshe could only ask G-d for so much and could only get so much.  He did not actually "ask to die," obviously that's not said explicitly in any verse.  Its saying he had a choice when he was told to stop persisting in his request TO ENTER THE LAND.

Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer. 

Lived longer?  The Talmud says he lived a full life.  He had already had the "gates of wisdom closed to him" according to Talmud.   Obviously that is something to do with the aging process.   How much longer are you talking?  A day? A week?  What point is that exactly?    IF HE WAS GOING TO LIVE ANY LONGER IT WAS ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO ENTER ERETZ YISRAEL.  HIS PUNISHMENT WAS NOT "you live one week less" , his punishment was "you die before getting into the land"

It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed,

Actually that's not a simple reading of anything.  That's a homiletic interpretation added by a midrash.  Do not confuse drash and pshat.  Simple pshat of his eye not dimming would be that his eyesight didn't diminish.  Unlike some other biblical heroes such as yaakov and his father yitzhak, both of whom lose their vision in their old age.

and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die.

So if a person's mind deteriorates but his arms are still strong that means he is not aging?  The same midrash you cite says his mind weakened!

But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...

I know you are but what am I?

I have addressed these points from the beginning you just fail to see that you have no help from what you cite.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm

Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.

The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.

According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.

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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.


http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html

.
.

Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.

.
.


From Daf Yomi Shabbat  55

2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?

(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";

1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)

1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)

(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.


PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...

Please reread what you have in bold.

Note that the first part agrees with me exactly.  Because that is how one reads the verses.  Its pretty clear.  That's why they ask that question.   Based on reading what the Torah says.  The answers get creative to answer the kasiyas, that's how Talmud functions.    Notice that some tannaim hold differently from your bolded answer.  But now let's focus on your bolded answer.

Now focus on the answer - it still agrees with me.  You would not have to die NOW.  But you would still die eventually, only after getting into the land.  (Maybe a week later? Maybe a month?  We don't know but there is no implication that he would not have died!)    Ask yourself, why did he put the word "now" in his reply, and it will all become clear to you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One more thought along the lines of death for sin...

What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?

Um but wouldn't you say according to that understanding that there is death in the world because of adam and chava.  So in other words All people die because of Adam and chava.  That only gives an ontological explanation for the reality we see - which is that old people die.   And everyone sins in their lifetime.  Still doesn't mean Moshe would have lived forever if not for the rock incident.   The talmud sotah13b which you quote 100 times in this thread says he lived a full and complete life!  120 yrs from the day of his birth.

And even one Talmudic discussion you cite (one which I have never totally understood but also didn't look into in depth) cites a few individuals who died "without sin" in their lifetimes (of course if you look at the examples that could easily just mean that there is no sin recorded and presented by the Torah! Not necessairly that they didn't sin).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And in all this discussion you have failed to indicate how it is (or how it could be) that our sins (the sins of the Jewish people) caused Rabbi Eliyashiv zt"l to die. 

Even where these sages homiletically render the verses, clearly for reasons Other Than obtaining pshat understanding, none of them claim that someone else's sins have caused Moshe to die without seeing the land (or as you are arguing, die early).    So where exactly does the claim come from that our sins caused Rav Eliashiv to die?   

Do you believe he would have lived til 120 if not for things we have done?   If so, what are those things and why ?     I don't think we can try to calculate G-d's decisions in matters of life and death such as this.   And this is precisely what we should learn from some of those midrashim you cite.    "No death without sin" is a concept - everyone sins, and death is in the world because of sins.    It doesn't give you calculations and lifespans based on what sin person x did or didn't do.

What I see is that old people die, and Moshe's time had come, just as the Talmud Sotah 13b tells us.   The question was, will he get to enter EY before he dies?   G-d only allowed him to SEE IT before he died.

Its not anyone's place to speculate about sins of a deceased Torah sage, and for one thing I obviously don't think he had a "shortened lifespan" (wouldn't it be an insult to his honor even suggest or consider that?) for whatever deeds.
1.  That's not what happened with Moshe.
2.  He is not Moshe.  And biblical times and figures were different (even lesser biblical figures had much more direct treatment than we do).
3.  Old people die and after a full life, its quite the opposite of a shortened lifespan.
4.  Certainly no connection to sins of other people and unfair to punish him for a sin by you or me or random Jewish guy.
5.  Even if you disagree with ALL 4 other points, AND you think rabbi eliashiv never committed a sin in his life (who knows?  Maybe!), still it makes no sense to think he would have lived forever because no one does.

[edu]

According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.

 That time has not yett come. When mentioning Rav Elyashiv's death and age of 102 not 1 person responds, woow what a young fellow.

[edu]

We are making new medical discoveries all the time and the average age that people in advanced countries are living to is going up.
My guess is that sometime within the next hundred years we will discover, medical cures and techniques to vastly increase the life span of the average man.
How quickly we discover these techniques might be affected by the spiritual merits of the generation.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

We are making new medical discoveries all the time and the average age that people in advanced countries are living to is going up.
My guess is that sometime within the next hundred years we will discover, medical cures and techniques to vastly increase the life span of the average man.
How quickly we discover these techniques might be affected by the spiritual merits of the generation.

 I know and agree on that. Those discoveries and time has not arrived yett. I'm still not shocked that someone died at 102, actually surprised the other way around that someone passed 100.

[muman613]

I know and agree on that. Those discoveries and time has not arrived yett. I'm still not shocked that someone died at 102, actually surprised the other way around that someone passed 100.

I know a man in my Minyan, Colonel Phil, who is 98 and he is fully functional and takes care of himself. He has lived a healthy life, served in our military during WWII, and I am proud to know him...

 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I know a man in my Minyan, Colonel Phil, who is 98 and he is fully functional and takes care of himself. He has lived a healthy life, served in our military during WWII, and I am proud to know him...

 
Very good, he is an exemption and that is why you are mentioning him.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That time has not yett come. When mentioning Rav Elyashiv's death and age of 102 not 1 person responds, woow what a young fellow.

A very key point in response to what edu posted.   No one on earth today thinks 102 is a shortened lifespan, especially considering the average lifespan for women in America is 70 something, and for men I think it's 60-something.   Or maybe lower 70's.   Either way, women live longer on average.   
And if someone lives a life longer than average lifespan, who in their right mind would accuse them of having their lifespan shortened?

In addition, why would anyone think that any person or any rabbi would live forever as a default option?    Doesn't Judaism say that after the sin of adam and eve, man can no longer live forever, and thus what we experience is that people always die, without exception?

Lastly, I'm sure the very same people who tell us we're not in the process or beginning stages of redemption despite the fact that some promises of the prophets have been fulfilled and millions of Jews now live in a rejuvenated Eretz Yisrael, these same people will cite us what edu cited Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 and say these vague words about lifespan have already been fulfilled?   And therefore Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if not for sins of other people?     Zero logic involved here.