JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shlomo on January 28, 2014, 01:32:32 PM
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Please vote and add your opinions to the discussion.
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I think it is mainly due to decadence.
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* foreign sabotage.
Foreign forces such as communism/socialism.
What the hell? You're listing the symptoms. You're listing the tools used. The results of evil.
What the hell? You know who's behind this.
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Obviously all of the above are contributing factors to the decline in civility and morality... But the root cause is the same as it ever was.... As the great Shlomo HaMelech (King Solomon) said, 'There is nothing new under the sun'... Evil, immorality, depravity, perversion, and addiction and abuse have been plaguing humanity since the creator placed the serpent in the garden. Remember that Hashem created both 'dark and light', he created 'good and bad'...
Certainly the influences of secular living have eroded the morality which was revealed to us at Sinai. Gdlessness is a very big problem today, causing many people to transgress the law because it seems there is no judge nor any justice against those who act against the will of Hashem.
But the sages of the Talmudic period and the prophets tell us that immorality will increase, as this is a sign of the 'footsteps of Moshiach'. Arrogance and chutzpah will increase in the land, and what is right will be called wrong, what is evil will be called good. This is to be expected... What we can do is strengthen ourselves, our families, and our communities.
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http://www.torah.org/learning/beyond-pshat/5763/tzav.html
With this we can now understand the Mishna in Tractate Sotah that speaks about the events surrounding the coming of Moshiach. The Mishna states that at the time just before Moshiach, arrogance and brazenness will be out of control -"The Young will not respect their elders and all we have is our Father in Heaven to rely on." The meaning of this is that when we realize that we can only rely on Hashem and no one else but Him, then our ultimate redemption will take place.
Some of the signs from Sotah 49a-b
http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_49.html
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WHEN R. MEIR32 DIED, THE COMPOSERS OF FABLES CEASED. WHEN BEN AZZAI33 DIED, THE ASSIDUOUS STUDENTS [OF TORAH] CEASED. WHEN BEN ZOMA34 DIED, THE EXPOSITORS CEASED.35 WHEN R. AKIBA36 DIED, THE GLORY OF THE TORAH CEASED. WHEN R. HANINA B. DOSA DIED, MEN OF DEED37 CEASED. WHEN R. JOSE KETANTA DIED, THE PIOUS MEN CEASED; AND WHY WAS HIS NAME CALLED KETANTA? BECAUSE HE WAS THE YOUNGEST38 OF THE PIOUS MEN.39 WHEN R. JOHANAN B. ZAKKAI40 DIED, THE LUSTRE OF WISDOM CEASED.41 WHEN RABBAN GAMALIEL THE ELDER DIED, THE GLORY OF THE TORAH CEASED, AND PURITY AND ABNEGATION PERISHED. WHEN R. ISHMAEL B. FABI42 DIED, THE LUSTRE OF THE PRIESTHOOD CEASED. WHEN RABBI DIED, HUMILITY AND FEAR OF SIN CEASED.43 R. PHINEAS B. JAIR SAYS: WHEN [THE SECOND] TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED, SCHOLARS44 AND NOBLEMEN WERE ASHAMED AND COVERED THEIR HEAD,45 MEN OF DEED WERE DISREGARDED, AND MEN OF ARM AND MEN OF TONGUE46 GREW POWERFUL. NOBODY ENQUIRES,47 NOBODY PRAYS [ON THEIR BEHALF], AND NOBODY ASKS.48 UPON WHOM IS IT FOR US TO RELY? UPON OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. R. ELIEZER THE GREAT SAYS: FROM THE DAY THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED, THE SAGES BEGAN TO BE LIKE SCHOOL-TEACHERS,49 SCHOOL-TEACHERS LIKE SYNAGOGUE-ATTENDANTS, SYNAGOGUE-ATTENDANTS LIKE COMMON PEOPLE, AND THE COMMON PEOPLE
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BECAME MORE AND MORE DEBASED; AND THERE WAS NONE TO ASK, NONE TO INQUIRE. UPON WHOM IS IT FOR US TO RELY? UPON OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN. IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE MESSIAH1 INSOLENCE WILL INCREASE AND HONOUR DWINDLE;2 THE VINE WILL YIELD ITS FRUIT [ABUNDANTLY] BUT WINE WILL BE DEAR;3 THE GOVERNMENT WILL TURN TO HERESY4 AND THERE WILL BE NONE [TO OFFER THEM] REPROOF; THE MEETING-PLACE [OF SCHOLARS] WILL BE USED FOR IMMORALITY; GALILEE WILL BE DESTROYED, GABLAN5 DESOLATED, AND THE DWELLERS ON THE FRONTIER WILL GO ABOUT [BEGGING] FROM PLACE TO PLACE WITHOUT ANYONE TO TAKE PITY ON THEM; THE WISDOM OF THE LEARNED6 WILL DEGENERATE, FEARERS OF SIN WILL BE DESPISED, AND THE TRUTH WILL BE LACKING; YOUTHS WILL PUT OLD MEN TO SHAME, THE OLD WILL STAND UP IN THE PRESENCE OF THE YOUNG, A SON WILL REVILE HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER WILL RISE AGAINST HER MOTHER, A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW, AND A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD;7 THE FACE OF THE GENERATION WILL BE LIKE THE FACE OF A DOG,8 A SON WILL NOT FEEL ASHAMED BEFORE HIS FATHER. SO UPON WHOM IS IT FOR US TO RELY? UPON OUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.
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Very interesting poll, Shlomo.
My answer was "other". I pick human nature in and of itself as the culprit. I understand Judaism views the Fall of Man differently from how Christianity does but it's a matter of plain and simple observable fact that the vast majority of humans are extremely corrupt and selfish and centered on instant gratification. "Democracy" has simply made it easier for base humans to live according to the basest desires.
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I voted for apathy and the lack of good people standing up for what's right. Here's a clip of Karl Rove talking about conservatives who wanted to bring up Jeremiah Wright in 2012:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRpV8O-onYA
Rove: "trying to dredge up Jeremiah Wright, right or wrong, after this issue was litigated 4 years ago by John McCain deciding not to litigate it, was stupid."
Bringing up Jeremiah Wright wouldn't have been difficult if Romney simply said that McCain was wrong not to focus on it, and that the American people deserve/ought to be made aware of the commander-in-chief's 20-year negative influence.
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I voted for "The general lack of faith and belief in G-d". All of the others are sub-categories of not believing in G-d.
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I voted for "The general lack of faith and belief in G-d". All of the others are sub-categories of not believing in G-d.
I did too.
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How does 'The internet and worldwide communication' fall under 'The general lack and faith in G-d'?
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How does 'The internet and worldwide communication' fall under 'The general lack and faith in G-d'?
If people believed in G-d, the Internet and instant Worlwide communication wouldn't be an issue. It would only be used for good.
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I think the answer is quite simple: Children are not being raised properly. Parents are not doing their job.
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I thinks a very small number of people with huge power... its judges, politicians, administrators who use their power to keep down the will of the people... and to ensure a lockstepped brainwashed youth.
The truly righteous can see above this brainwashing and fight against it, but many cannot.
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It is human nature to become decadent when there is wealth and prosperity and no threat that this will change. Humans are born with evil inside them so humanity is a disease that has to cure itself. If no effort is put into this proces the human life will have been in vain. You can blame the evil media for doing what it does, but the choice lies with the human itself.
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All of the reasons apply to lack of morality and conscience. Even the attitudes of people today were predicted in 2nd Timmothy 3: But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of (themselves) lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of GOD...having a form of Godliness, but denying its power.
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All of the reasons apply to lack of morality and conscience. Even the attitudes of people today were predicted in 2nd Timmothy 3: But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of (themselves) lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of GOD...having a form of Godliness, but denying its power.
Why must you constantly quote from the un-holy J man book?
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Why must you constantly quote from the un-holy J man book?
I agree that Debbie could be a little more sensitive to the fact that this is the Jewish Task Force.
Her posts often come off as proselytizing (in a way) to me. People have politely hinted for her to stop.
But it is silly for you to call the New Testament the unholy J man book. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to act like an adult.
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I agree that Debbie could be a little more sensitive to the fact that this is the Jewish Task Force.
Her posts often come off as proselytizing (in a way) to me. People have politely hinted for her to stop.
But it is silly for you to call the New Testament the unholy J man book. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to act like an adult.
I could call it the "Xtian Bible". There are a lot worse things I can call it. I would not call it the "new t" because that is saying that our Bible is the old one and the Xtian one replaces it.
Jews call the J man "Yoshke" or "Yeshu". We don't need to show any respect to him.
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How about...Hi Debbie, Thank You for supporting the goals and ideals of the Jewish Task Force. But, do you think you could stop quoting from your bible. As it is not appropriate for a Jewish forum. I'm sure you would not want to seem as if you are proselytizing to the Jewish members.
But no...then you might not be insulting to the Christian members.
My answer to the poll is OTHER: Lack of RESPECT. This generation has not been taught RESPECT. Respect for G-d, Respect for themselves or Respect for decency.
I could call it the "Xtian Bible". There are a lot worse things I can call it. I would not call it the "new t" because that is saying that our Bible is the old one and the Xtian one replaces it.
Jews call the J man "Yoshke" or "Yeshu". We don't need to show any respect to him.
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I could call it the "Xtian Bible". There are a lot worse things I can call it. I would not call it the "new t" because that is saying that our Bible is the old one and the Xtian one replaces it.
Jews call the J man "Yoshke" or "Yeshu". We don't need to show any respect to him.
There are a lot of worse things we can call a lot of things if you get my drift... I thought this forum was intended to be a place where something productive was being accomplished... Since you came back here all you do is foment problems with the few Gentiles left on the forum... I guess you won't be happy until you have the membership down to six or seven Jews constantly complaining about every injustice under the sun.
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How can the New Testament replace your bible. You make no sense.
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How about...Hi Debbie, Thank You for supporting the goals and ideals of the Jewish Task Force. But, do you think you could stop quoting from your bible. As it is not appropriate for a Jewish forum. I'm sure you would not want to seem as if you are proselytizing to the Jewish members.
But no...then you might not be insulting to the Christian members.
My answer to the poll is OTHER: Lack of RESPECT. This generation has not been taught RESPECT. Respect for G-d, Respect for themselves or Respect for decency.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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How can the New Testament replace your bible. You make no sense.
Obviously it doesn't. But it does in Replacement Theology. There is one Bible and One G-d. So just like I don't call it "the old t", I wouldn't call someone else's bible "the new t".
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Isaiah Chapter 11.
Isaiah Chapter 11:13
http://www.britam.org/Hosea10.html
Ezekiel Chapter 37
Ezekiel Chapter 37:16
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When someone rejects God as an authority figure then they will never be able to be consistently moral.
Atheists would argue that a morality can be created by consensus of the society, but in reality that doesn't always protect the weaker/more vulnerable members of society from cruelty or abuse or murder.
Some cultures still practice human sacrifice and consider that to be a normal part of life. Albinos in Africa who live in fear of witchcraft practitioners killing them for their skin know this well as do people who have lost family members or been injured by homicide bombing conducted by Muslims. It could be argued that this happens in the USA if a fetus is determined to be unwanted. The developing baby is killed for any reason or no reason at all, based on if the mother decides to do it or not. For each of the societies in which these things occur, consensus of the perpetrator's culture has said that this is legitimate practice. Therefore consensus morality is really never going to work as a protection for people who need protection.
What is needed is a more objective set of moral rules that don't change. This can only come from the highest authority and this authority needs to be above humans because human leaders are always subject to challenge. God, being omniscient and omnipotent, is the perfect being to hand down moral rules.
If someone rejects God or God's authority, then their sense of morals and ethics will always be transient and situationally-based.
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I think all these issues are very true... but so much of it is instigated by our government and our media.
Kids are brainwashed at school to not respect anything that is conservative or religious.... I remember the first time I heard that one of my classmates was 'Pro-Life' everyone was shocked... it was as if he was some sort of caveman or monster... even though he was a very nice kid.
I too was raised like this.. and I remember thinking the exact same thing.... and I still can't even mention my pro-life views to nearly anyone it seems without being labeled a caveman.
Its all about brainwashing... just like the Islamo-dictatorships brainwash the kids to want to destroy America and Israel... western establishments brainwash kids to embrace the far left and legitimizing things that are obviously wrong... and crucifying those who are obviously right.
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I voted "other"
because I think it is all except the internet and belief in G-d
Things were a mess before the internet.
Also I think an athiest is capable of behaving ethically.
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I voted "other"
because I think it is all except the internet and belief in G-d
Things were a mess before the internet.
Also I think an athiest is capable of behaving ethically.
Yes, I assume your kind of 'ethics' includes abortion and euthanasia....
Without G-d morality is whatever the majority of people think is 'moral'... There is no moral compass without the Torah.
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I voted "other"
because I think it is all except the internet and belief in G-d
Things were a mess before the internet.
Also I think an athiest is capable of behaving ethically.
Atheists are capable of behaving ethically but their ethics are not based on any objective standard. They may have a personal moral code that is very good, but they have no higher authority to answer to where they will be held accountable for following that.
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Yes, I assume your kind of 'ethics' includes abortion and euthanasia....
Without G-d morality is whatever the majority of people think is 'moral'... There is no moral compass without the Torah.
You know, I don't see what she did to warrant that. She said that it is possible to be an externally moral atheist. I did not see her advocating for atheism.
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Obviously it doesn't. But it does in Replacement Theology. There is one Bible and One G-d. So just like I don't call it "the old t", I wouldn't call someone else's bible "the new t".
JTF Christians by definition do not practice RT.
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Atheists are capable of behaving ethically but their ethics are not based on any objective standard. They may have a personal moral code that is very good, but they have no higher authority to answer to where they will be held accountable for following that.
Good post. An atheist that adopts a moral code is basically doing so as windowdressing whether they want to face it or not, because there is nothing to back it up.
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Good post. An atheist that adopts a moral code is basically doing so as windowdressing whether they want to face it or not, because there is nothing to back it up.
Thank you and yes that's what I meant.
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You know, I don't see what she did to warrant that. She said that it is possible to be an externally moral atheist. I did not see her advocating for atheism.
I have run into fibrogirl in the Torah section. She is anti-religious and anti-Judaism if I ever saw one...
Her idea of morality includes wearing 'sexy' dresses to immodest treif parties...
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I have run into fibrogirl in the Torah section. She is anti-religious and anti-Judaism if I ever saw one...
Her idea of morality includes wearing 'sexy' dresses to immodest treif parties...
That's Jenny...I knew that's what you were thinking.
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That's Jenny...I knew that's what you were thinking.
Ooops...
Sorry fibrogirl... I think I just made a mistake...
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Ooops...
Sorry fibrogirl... I think I just made a mistake...
:)
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I have run into fibrogirl in the Torah section. She is anti-religious and anti-Judaism if I ever saw one...
Her idea of morality includes wearing 'sexy' dresses to immodest treif parties...
I was going to say that sounds like Jenny to me before Ephraim corrected me. I think you owe Fibro an apology... :P
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I was going to say that sounds like Jenny to me before Ephraim corrected me. I think you owe Fibro an apology... :P
When I realized I made a mistake I did apologize...
Ooops...
Sorry fibrogirl... I think I just made a mistake...
(http://www.salonmarketing365.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/oops.jpg)
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Good post. An atheist that adopts a moral code is basically doing so as windowdressing whether they want to face it or not, because there is nothing to back it up.
That might be true, I don't know.
But on a practical level, I have known athiests that do behave ethically. I am sure others here have too.
Atheists did exist in significant numbers in the 1950's and even in Victorian times.
Modern day Japan is a very irreligious society. I don't know if they are atheists, but during the Fukishima disaster they did not seem to have much looting.
Iceland, Finland and Norway (yes I know Norway is antisemitic but it's good for Norweigens) all have extremely high standards of living and better human rights than more religious countries. Therefore I think a strongly atheist society that has good ethics can exist...I am just don't know if it can sustain itself long term.
That's all right Muman :)
For a while I thought someone had stolen my username.
No I don't believe in abortion. Funny you should bring that up, but I happen to know a heavy athiest here in Israel who is a bigger supporter of Efrat, an Israeli religious anti abortion charity.