JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: kyel on July 27, 2014, 01:04:26 PM
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http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/5590#.U9UwWvldXpI
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Great. MI liked most of it (minus the "gilgulim" part). Glad to hear him say to bombard them and not jeopardize any Jewish soldiers.
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Great. MI liked most of it (minus the "gilgulim" part). Glad to hear him say to bombard them and not jeopardize any Jewish soldiers.
Tag, you're really getting to be too much with this stuff. Rabbi Kahane wasn't against Zohar, btw.
I'll be the first to say it then: in terms of standing up for Torah truth of what should be done in Israel, making baalei teshuva, standing against the establishment traitors, and saying the truth about Islam, Rabbi Mizrachi is the closest Rabbi to Rabbi Kahane in the generation, and if he were to actually run for knesset, I would fight for it with anything.
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Tag, you're really getting to be too much with this stuff. Rabbi Kahane wasn't against Zohar, btw.
I'll be the first to say it then: in terms of standing up for Torah truth of what should be done in Israel, making baalei teshuva, standing against the establishment traitors, and saying the truth about Islam, Rabbi Mizrachi is the closest Rabbi to Rabbi Kahane in the generation, and if he were to actually run for knesset, I would fight for it with anything.
O would say that Rav Bar-Hayim is the closest.Rabbi mizrachi I'd good but RBH is better and closer to Rav Kahane. With all due respect R Mizrachi can be influenced and inclined towards the antirationalists sometimes when the conditions permit.
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I am curious, how would rabbi Bar-Hayim be more like Rabbi Kahane? In what ways?
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I am curious, how would rabbi Bar-Hayim be more like Rabbi Kahane? In what ways?
Watch his videos. he is also more rationally inclined. + taught at his Yeshiva.
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Watch his videos. he is also more rationally inclined. + taught at his Yeshiva.
He's a great Rav. Very serious, brilliant, and I love his videos and respect him. That being said, am Yisrael needs many different thing. The main one is a lot of baalei teshuva. I don't see his movement fighting for that at all. In fact, some people start with saying Zohar is bad, and then move from there against everything. It's obviously all excuses, because the Rav never bad-mouthed halacha, but he did enter into disagreements with fundamental aspects of what major Rabbis like Rashi said, and this has gotten people that listen to him to backslide by them thinking they can disagree with what they choose to.
This would all be irrelevant if he was making baalei teshuva, because any Rabbi will have someone's lack of desire to fulfill Torah blamed on them, but I have a problem that they're attacking what they perceive as problems in Judaism over the problems with Jews that have become completely secular. We have a hard enough time getting secular Jews to accept basic halacha, but getting them to agree with his new ideas, maybe they will, but it's not going to make them start keeping shabbat.
I greatly respect Machon Shiloh, and I hope that one day soon G-d willing when a Jewish state is founded, this great Rav will be a part of it, because he certainly knows how to run a Jewish state according to halacha.
Rav Kahane was more than that; he was a pillar for all of am Yisrael that everyone could unite behind. Rav Mizrachi has a message that every Jew can identify with, and has brought many enemies of their people to become loyal and holy, and that's what we need most.
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"but he did enter into disagreements with fundamental aspects of what major Rabbis like Rashi said, and this has gotten people that listen to him to backslide by them thinking they can disagree with what they choose to. "
What do you mean? I do not understand what you are referring to and saying here.
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"Rav Mizrachi has a message that every Jew can identify with, and has brought many enemies of their people to become loyal and holy, and that's what we need most."
Yes and no. Their are things that he says that is problematic sometimes. He goes back and forth. The recent problem is that he said that its "Kefirrah" not to believe in Reincarnation. Ookay, I can live with this although it is very wrong as well.
2) He said at one of his lectures that the 3 boys were kidnapped because they were Dati-Leumi and it was the Dati-Leumi that fought against the Yeshivot and that is why they were murdered.
Again he goes back and forth, sometimes the very good and practical, but at times back to the irrationalist type which is very wrong and problematic in many ways. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD was RATIONALIST and not the types that claim they are rational but then act irrational because of an underlying FEAR of the gentiles. Rational in the sense of practical ACTION.
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Again let me make this clear, the recent very right-wing words of Rabbi Mizrachi and others are very encouraging. I don't want people to get the wrong impression.
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"but he did enter into disagreements with fundamental aspects of what major Rabbis like Rashi said, and this has gotten people that listen to him to backslide by them thinking they can disagree with what they choose to. "
What do you mean? I do not understand what you are referring to and saying here.
Him disagreeing with Rashi's explanation of Hannukah was blamed for some problems. His attacking some mainstream kabalistic tefillot also was blamed for problems for davening with.
"Rav Mizrachi has a message that every Jew can identify with, and has brought many enemies of their people to become loyal and holy, and that's what we need most."
Yes and no. Their are things that he says that is problematic sometimes. He goes back and forth. The recent problem is that he said that its "Kefirrah" not to believe in Reincarnation. Ookay, I can live with this although it is very wrong as well.
2) He said at one of his lectures that the 3 boys were kidnapped because they were Dati-Leumi and it was the Dati-Leumi that fought against the Yeshivot and that is why they were murdered.
Again he goes back and forth, sometimes the very good and practical, but at times back to the irrationalist type which is very wrong and problematic in many ways. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD was RATIONALIST and not the types that claim they are rational but then act irrational because of an underlying FEAR of the gentiles. Rational in the sense of practical ACTION.
He says that based on the assumption that you will say there is no justice in this world. I also have yet to find another explanation. If you know of one, then it may make sense.
You're going to have to source where he blamed the murder of the Jewish boys, who he calls saints, on them being Dati Leumi.
I have also never seen him act out of fear out of anyone. Kaballah is also, like any Jewish text, able to be rationalized, but it requires an exceptional mind.
As for action, he says the same thing as we do, but more. He says cut off the electricity, stop giving the terrorists things, and to kill them, because they're murderers, which is the halacha. He said he vehemently opposes giving land, and all the actions he proposes are in line with Torah, he just doesn't say we should take Jews out of the Yeshivot, which I am against anyways, but did say the haredi who aren't in Yeshivot should go to the army so "they can make them into people", so I have no idea what action he proposes that you're against, nor what action he hasn't proposed that you would like him to. If he was running Israel, it would be the same as if JTF was.
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You're going to have to source where he blamed the murder of the Jewish boys, who he calls saints, on them being Dati Leumi.
http://youtu.be/DaPD1_5iNc8?t=17m10s
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About suffering and "reincarnation", just because it might try to explain things its still doesn't mean it is true. In the Gemarah (Berachot) it says that Moshe himself didn't understand why the righteous suffer and the wicked are punished.Moshe didn't understand it so now "kabbalists" do? Not only Moshe but the Hachamim of the Gemarah either said the same thing as well.
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http://youtu.be/DaPD1_5iNc8?t=17m10s
And then go to 21:20 directly he says it even more soo.
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"Him disagreeing with Rashi's explanation of Hannukah was blamed for some problems. His attacking some mainstream kabalistic tefillot also was blamed for problems for davening with."
1) its fine to disagree with Rashi or others. In fact Rashi and Rambam and Ramban disagree with each other as well. Why would it be a problem to disagree with something Rashi or anyone else said?
2) So? If their is a problem with some "Kabbalistic" Tefillot then their is a problem with them and its not a problem to point them out. Anyway perhaps you can (or not) point out exactly what the issue was otherwise well be arguing for nothing and not knowing the specifics.
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Again back to earlier- I am willing to bury it, the recent words are good as a whole and I hope it continues in this direction not just with this Rabbi but with the nation as a whole. People are moving to the Right and its a very good and necessary phenomena for total victory against our enemies. Lets just leave it at that.
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Yeah you're not going to cry like the others and say whimpering things if there's confrontation, so we can talk.
The issue is not whether one person is good or not, or better, or if the things they say are right or not. I listened to those lectures by the Rav, and I respectfully disagree as far as Kaballah, but Hannukah I think he's right. The point is that there's only so many things you can focus on in your life, and if you're going to be the new Rav Kahane, there's only so many attacks from different directions that you can take.
What I'm saying is that despite how well the Rav is pushing to have a real authentic Judaism that religious people can return to, I stand by the position that the most important thing in our generation is saving the hordes of secular Jews, and Rabbi Mizrachi is doing that along with very strong positions.
It's not just recently. He did say things before in Satmar shuls (and at least a few that I've heard have left Satmar since) that were not extremely Zionist, but someone that however he does it can make a Satmar a loyal religious Zionist, along with secular leftists is not only important for am Yisrael, he's a hero, and unlike the Rav, as fantastic, brilliant, and politically sane as he is, he can get massive segments of am Yisrael to unite behind him.
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I do not believe in 'rational Judaism' at all. I never heard of such a thing before and to me it is a 'made-up' belief. While some consider Rambam to be a rational judaism, it is just the same as most Judaism in that it lays down Halacha which is easy to understand. But I do not agree with the idea that Judaism is something which can be 'rationalized' or can be separated from it's spiritual roots. A Judaism without spirituality is doomed to destruction and I believe that the spiritual aspects of Judaism is what makes it great. It is a great injustice to suggest that Judaism is just a bunch of halachas and you keep the halachas and you are a good guy. Judaism is much, much deeper than that.
There is nothing rational about belief in Hashem. Something rational is capable of being explained in a scientific manner. There are so many examples in Judaism where things don't always work in a rational manner (for example the Para Aduma, Niddah, Tammie, Kashrut, Shabbat, just to name a few). There is no reason a person should be considered impure from contact with a dead body. There is no scientific evidence that a person who has contacted a dead body is any different than one who has not, yet the Torah creates a distinction.... Is this rational?
I believe that the secrets of life have been discussed by the sages of Judaism for many years. By studying the Kabbalah and the other mystical writings of the Jewish sages we can get a better understanding of the spiritual world. I don't really understand why anyone would reject these beautiful teachings as they are intended for the betterment of the Jewish people and the world.
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I may be mistaken and please correctly if I am wrong. Maybe I got the wrong impression about "rational Judaism", but do they have a problem with the Talmud?
They call themselves Rambamist or Dor Daim? Also, are they completely against the Midrash, anti-Zohar? I heard someone who calls himself a Rambamist was trying ti justify using electricity on Shabbos.
Now, maybe this is just a misunderstanding based on hysteria to make it sound scary and have people shun it. Essentially, what exactly is Rational Judaism? Maybe I should start a new topic?
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Him disagreeing with Rashi's explanation of Hannukah was blamed for some problems. His attacking some mainstream kabalistic tefillot also was blamed for problems for davening with.
Huh? blamed by whom for what problems? Give evidence to what you are saying and explain it or drop these vague insinuations.
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Huh? blamed by whom for what problems? Give evidence to what you are saying and explain it or drop these vague insinuations.
Facebook athiests claim to hold by him and eventually dropped shabbat, and were fighting with this Dana Cohen figure against Rabbi Mizrachi, and I took them out. I don't believe a word of what they say, because I enjoy the Rav's lectures and it didn't make me apikoris. However, the Rav's claim that it is "absurd" to say that Torah study protects us (which is an idea in Gemarra) and that it's only the effects of Torah study which protect us (something that is also true to an extent, in my opinion) turned some of these people against mainstream religious Jews, and especially ultra-Orthodox, and so weaker people blamed the Rav's teaching for moving away from Torah and Am Yisrael.
Such allegations are nonsense and complete excuses, but regardless, the Rav as great as he is, is not making hordes of baalei teshuva or bringing Am Yisrael together, and as such is not Kahanesque in his tactics.
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Facebook athiests claim to hold by him and eventually dropped shabbat, and were fighting with this Dana Cohen figure against Rabbi Mizrachi, and I took them out. I don't believe a word of what they say, because I enjoy the Rav's lectures and it didn't make me apikoris. However, the Rav's claim that it is "absurd" to say that Torah study protects us (which is an idea in Gemarra) and that it's only the effects of Torah study which protect us (something that is also true to an extent, in my opinion) turned some of these people against mainstream religious Jews, and especially ultra-Orthodox, and so weaker people blamed the Rav's teaching for moving away from Torah and Am Yisrael.
Who in particular? Who was keeping Shabbat but because of listening to Rav Bar-Hayim's lectures STOPED keeping Shabbat as a result? Name me 1 person in particular who said this.
And Dana Cohen for all I know keeps Shabbat as well. Just because she says things against Rabbi Mizrachi AND listens to Rav Bar-Hayim's lectures doesn't mean their is a necessary correlation. Also its mainly Zevi Chaim who posts discusses RBH lectures and not her, not that it would matter either way.
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"However, the Rav's claim that it is "absurd" to say that Torah study protects us (which is an idea in Gemarra) and that it's only the effects of Torah study which protect us (something that is also true to an extent, in my opinion) turned some of these people against mainstream religious Jews, and especially ultra-Orthodox"
It is absurd actually. This is what Rav Kahane ZTL has been saying for years. What is specifically fought against is some (or many don't know) in the Haredi community claiming that its Torah study and prayer that is needed and ONLY this in order to defeat our enemies. Its very passive and against the Torah itself. Someone pointing this out doesn't make them a "hater of the Torah". It makes them a lover of Am Yisrael that can (G-D forbid) be slaughtered because of these types of stupidities.
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You think that statements like these are not MORE damaging to Am Yisrael, to reality AND to how the Torah is perceived for what it is not over the fact that someone who is Torah observant points out that this is wrong?
Shas Leader Rabbi Shalom Cohen: Israel Doesn’t Need Army Since Ultra-Orthodox Prayers Protect It
http://www.totpi.com/shas-leader-rabbi-shalom-cohen-israel-doesnt-need-army-since-ultra-orthodox-prayers-protect.html
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Or this. Notice the entire speech, nothing about actually fighting but only prayer.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTYWyqUy0LI
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Who in particular? Who was keeping Shabbat but because of listening to Rav Bar-Hayim's lectures STOPED keeping Shabbat as a result? Name me 1 person in particular who said this.
And Dana Cohen for all I know keeps Shabbat as well. Just because she says things against Rabbi Mizrachi AND listens to Rav Bar-Hayim's lectures doesn't mean their is a necessary correlation. Also its mainly Zevi Chaim who posts discusses RBH lectures and not her, not that it would matter either way.
Zevi Chaim has an army of nouveau-athiests behind him. I don't remember their names, but I do some of their faces and our conversations. Like I said, if you actually think listening to a lecture will make you stop keeping mitzvot, you're a fool or a liar, so that's a non-issue, however, the point is that it does get them to say "you're wrong" to massive amounts of Jews keeping mitzvot, and as such it isn't the way to make mass-baalei teshuva.
"However, the Rav's claim that it is "absurd" to say that Torah study protects us (which is an idea in Gemarra) and that it's only the effects of Torah study which protect us (something that is also true to an extent, in my opinion) turned some of these people against mainstream religious Jews, and especially ultra-Orthodox"
It is absurd actually. This is what Rav Kahane ZTL has been saying for years. What is specifically fought against is some (or many don't know) in the Haredi community claiming that its Torah study and prayer that is needed and ONLY this in order to defeat our enemies. Its very passive and against the Torah itself. Someone pointing this out doesn't make them a "hater of the Torah". It makes them a lover of Am Yisrael that can (G-D forbid) be slaughtered because of these types of stupidities.
Shas Leader Rabbi Shalom Cohen: Israel Doesn’t Need Army Since Ultra-Orthodox Prayers Protect It
http://www.totpi.com/shas-leader-rabbi-shalom-cohen-israel-doesnt-need-army-since-ultra-orthodox-prayers-protect.html
Fine I'll say it then. In my humble opinion, both opinions may contradict Torah. Rabbi Glatstein made a lecture where he quoted Gemarra saying that for every Jew on the front line in battle to take Israel, there was one Jew with him in the battle behind the lines studying Torah. He also stated that because the Sages state that every portion of the land corresponds to a portion of Torah, the reason why Gaza has almost always been controlled by evil people though it is Israel, is because the halacha involving Gaza has been misunderstood or not studied http://www.torahanytime.com/video/parashat-masay-gaza/
By this, we need both, and you can back it up by (I forget this source, but Rabbi Mizrachi said it) when G-d told Abraham or Moshe during a battle to stop praying to him and fight, with both of these together it is obvious that the soldiers need to have a connection to Hashem before they fight (further proven by the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight) but when they fight they must fight, but we also need soldiers learning in their merit, for a long list of good reasons, as they are fighting, and specifically thinking about them and feeling their struggle as much as possible.
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1) Rabbi Glatstein has been going to the Right. He did say those things, BUT earlier he made a lecture about giving up land in Israel, YET the problem was that after bringing all the sources and proofs AGAINST it he then said, well we need to follow the "Gedolim" and what they say. That is a total sad joke to say the least. And that shows one of the major problems if the generation. Its people (Rabbis) not willing to make decisions on their own and after all the proofs just forgetting these things and saying to just follow the "Gedolim" blindly.
2) FYI I think that in that lecture he also mentioned that those who were learning were doing so right NEXT to the soldier fighting. I think that it was him who said it. I don't understand it but that's what was said.
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(further proven by the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight)
Not true at all. In a Milhemit Misswah their is no such thing. The only thing possibly is a handicap. Nothing more preventing a soldier from fighting. Today the situation is a Milhemit Misswah for sure as its a Defensive war.
The only issue possibly arises in a Milhemit Reshut, which we do not even have today (meaning we are not doing).
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(further proven by the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight)
Not true at all. In a Milhemit Misswah their is no such thing. The only thing possibly is a handicap. Nothing more preventing a soldier from fighting. Today the situation is a Milhemit Misswah for sure as its a Defensive war.
The only issue possibly arises in a Milhemit Reshut, which we do not even have today (meaning we are not doing).
Taking the land was a Milhemit Mitzvah.
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My previous statement was not to arrogantly propose my bracha was worth much, but Rabbi Mizrachi's amen was certainly worth an infinity in the eyes of Hashem, G-d willing.
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Taking the land was a Milhemit Mitzvah.
I know. Exactly. I don't understand your argument. I am saying (in case you didn't understand) that in a Milhemit Misswah everyone has to go and participate in ways that they can and no one is exempt. You said that their are Halahic questions asked etc. simply is not true.
the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight
This does not exist in a Milheit Misswah for sure. I don't know where you got this idea from.
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My previous statement was not to arrogantly propose my bracha was worth much, but Rabbi Mizrachi's amen was certainly worth an infinity in the eyes of Hashem, G-d willing.
Which bracha? you lost me.
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Prayer is important in order to win a war. This is a well known fact based on the writings of the Talmud and the sages.
Anyone who does not agree that prayer is important denies some fundamental tenets of Judaism.
Particularly:
1) Hashem is all powerfull.
2) Hashem hears the prayers of the people.
But prayer alone is not always the correct approach... The incident at the Sea of Reeds when Moses started praying, Hashem said stop praying and move... Also we are not supposed to rely on miracles... Hashem is capable of miracles but he prefers that the world work according to the forces of nature. We must pray, and we must strengthen ourselves, in order to be able to face those who oppose us.
Our resolve, our knowledge that Hashem is with us in battle, and our strength which he has given us will make us victorious against all our enemies.
But I will never suggest that we are capable of victory without the Jewish people praying together in praise and honor of Hashem our G-d.
See the 16th blessing of Amidah:
“Hear our voice, Hashem our G-d, pity and be compassionate to us, and accept – with compassion and favor – our prayer, for You are G-d Who hears prayers and supplications. Do not turn us away empty-handed from before Yourself, our King, for You hear the prayers of Your people Israel with compassion. Blessed are You, Hashem, Who hears prayers.”
http://www.torah.org/learning/tefilah/16thblessing.html
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1) Rabbi Glatstein has been going to the Right. He did say those things, BUT earlier he made a lecture about giving up land in Israel, YET the problem was that after bringing all the sources and proofs AGAINST it he then said, well we need to follow the "Gedolim" and what they say. That is a total sad joke to say the least. And that shows one of the major problems if the generation. Its people (Rabbis) not willing to make decisions on their own and after all the proofs just forgetting these things and saying to just follow the "Gedolim" blindly.
I don't know about the lecture, and certainly don't know any Gedolim outside of our generation who would propose such insanity, nor is Rabbi Glatstein's person relevant to the conversation (though I am glad to see that he is in fact saying very righteous things), because we're discussing whether the Rav or the Rabbi are closer to Rabbi Kahane, and his lecture is simply being used as a source. Do you disagree with my statement regarding the necessity of both Torah study and fighting, and do you do you see the importance of making baalei teshuva to becoming a revered Torah leader in Israel? We need both people, and they are both a great blessing, but I did give Rabbi Mizrachi a bracha that he would become like Rabbi Kahane and lead the Jewish people to have a Jewish state, which he said amen to, and he's been working to become just that, and in my opinion, even if he wasn't the one to lead Israel until Moshiah comes, the baaeli teshuva he has made will do more to make Israel safer than a hundred perfect lectures on what Torah beliefs the mainstream should correct.
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The great Rabbi Berel Wein brings down this concept by learning from our father Yaakov's battle against his brother Essau what approach to take concerning prayer...
http://www.rabbiwein.com/blog/gifts-prayer-and-war-145.html
GIFTS, PRAYER AND WAR
The Midrash teaches us that when our father Yaakov was aware of the impending confrontation with his erstwhile brother, Eisav, he prepared a number of options for himself as to how the scenario would play itself out.
He was prepared to pay Eisav a large amount of wealth to leave him in peace. He prayed to the Lord for Divine intervention on his behalf. And he also mobilized his family and servants for armed battle if necessary. Many may look at this plan of Yaakov’s as being composed of three individual and almost mutually exclusive options. One does not, in all good logic, bestow wealth upon an enemy that one feels one will have to fight in the near future.
Even though there have been such instances of monetary appeasement, in past human history most wars are preceded by embargoes, confiscations of the wealth of the perceived enemy and generally bellicose statements before the war actually breaks out.
Prayer is also universally invoked with each side convinced that the God of war is on its side in the conflict. Yet prayer also indicates the wish that the war be avoided somehow and that the Divine canopy of peace be spread over the contending powers. And the realm of prayer is usually left to the pious and the clergy (not always are they synonymous) and plays, at best, a secondary role in war preparations.
And finally, there is the option of battle itself with all of the uncertainty, mayhem and murder that accompanies this most brutal of human activities. Midrash seems to imply that Yaakov prepared himself for these three options in a manner that one of them would be the chosen course of behavior in dealing with Eisav.
Yet a closer examination of the words of the Torah indicates that Yaakov intended to employ all three options simultaneously. Yaakov’s gift to Eisav, large and generous as it was, would be unsuccessful in deterring Eisav. Eisav’s appetite would only be whetted for greater spoils. He would certainly misread Yaakov’s generosity towards him as a sign of weakness and timidity and therefore become more determined to destroy Yaakov – and would now believe that he could so easily.
Yaakov is aware of the inherent weakness of the policy of appeasement of Eisav alone. He must therefore convince Eisav that he is not a pacifist at all costs. Eisav must see him as being prepared to wage war successfully and tellingly. Only when Eisav realizes Yaakov’s warlike abilities will he see the gifts given to him in their true light – not as tokens of weakness but simply a method of accommodation of two different cultures and societies.
And Yaakov also invokes prayer as a weapon in this struggle and informs Eisav of its presence in his arsenal of defense against Eisav’s evil intent. Prayer is the explanation to Eisav of how Yaakov successfully survived the house of Lavan and, against all odds, emerged whole, mighty and wealthy from that twenty year ordeal. Yaakov, in essence, informs Eisav: “Don’t disregard God’s presence and will in the equation of our struggle.”
Yaakov is the prototype of all later struggles of the Jewish people and is especially relevant to our current world and its attendant problems. The Jewish people have always given large gifts to our enemies to dissuade them from violence and hatred. Most of the time, the world looked at these gifts as signs of Jewish weakness, which in fact was what they really were.
Our prayers were mocked and the world never believed that God was on our side no matter how miraculous and patently obvious our powers of resilience and survival were. And the world also never believed that the Jews would be able to successfully defend themselves and their country.
Jews were supposed to be bankers, musicians and peddlers but not soldiers or warriors. This latter fallacy has been amply corrected by the Israel Defense Forces over nearly seventy years. Nevertheless our gifts and compromises offered are still evidently misinterpreted as being signs of weakness.
There is a blindness that envelops our foes that does not allow them to see us in true reality, void of all stereotyping and preconceived beliefs. It is viewed as an insult to their faith that the Jews should somehow be entitled to belief in their God and observance of their ancient traditions. Therefore until our foes also recognize our three pronged answer to their threats as being legitimate and strong, we are reduced to following the maxim of Theodore Roosevelt: “Speak softly and carry a big stick.”
Shabat shalom.
Berel Wein
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I think it should be obvious my vote is for Rabbi Mizrachi over Bar-Hayim concerning his ability to teach, his right-wing beliefs, and his understanding of Torah.
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I know. Exactly. I don't understand your argument. I am saying (in case you didn't understand) that in a Milhemit Misswah everyone has to go and participate in ways that they can and no one is exempt. You said that their are Halahic questions asked etc. simply is not true.
the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight
This does not exist in a Milheit Misswah for sure. I don't know where you got this idea from.
In the mizvah to take the land, there was one Jew studying right behind the battle line for each individual soldier, according to Gemarra, which rationalist Judaism likes.
Which bracha? you lost me.
That he would be the Rabbi Kahane of our generation.
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In the mizvah to take the land, there was one Jew studying right behind the battle line for each individual soldier, according to Gemarra, which rationalist Judaism likes.
the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight
Your answer doesn't answer my question to what you claimed earlier. What list? Everyone was supposed to fight and be part of the army.
2) I would like to see that Gemara (not that I'm denying it, I just would like to see it inside).
3) Who said that those fighting and those learning weren't altercating with each other? Maybe some fought while others rested (and learned etc) and then they switched.
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In a Holy War there are three kinds who are exempt from fighting:
As per Rambams laws of war @ http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188343/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot.htm
18) The obligation to allow those who have consecrated wives, built houses, or planted vineyards to rejoice in their new status for a complete year, while releasing them from military conscription;
I realize this is not related to the Milchemet Mitzvah...
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the list of halachic questions given to soldiers to determine if they even can fight
Your answer doesn't answer my question to what you claimed earlier. What list? Everyone was supposed to fight and be part of the army.
2) I would like to see that Gemara (not that I'm denying it, I just would like to see it inside).
3) Who said that those fighting and those learning weren't altercating with each other? Maybe some fought while others rested (and learned etc) and then they switched.
They were all taken out to the battle field. Then if they didn't redeem their grape vines, were scared (because they had sinned) and a bunch of stuff, they took care of the camp.
2) If you had watched the Rabbi Glatstein video instead of speaking bad about him, you'd find the source in there.
3) Doesn't mention that. If they did, there would still be a person studying at all times for each fighter, which in no way diminishes the point, since studying Gemarra hardcore really does tire you out, and isn't an actual rest.
4) I just realized, were you defending Zevi Chaim or Dana Cohen before? You know they fought, and succeeded a bit before I declared open war with Joel Bird and our facebook army, to get Rabbi Mizrachi's Torah lectures banned, and tried informing on him to the British nazi government to get him banned. You know these people are filthy reshiam, right? I would never try to get the SATMAR mullah banned from speaking, he will inevitably speak a word of Torah, and no way I would risk that on my account, but to get Rabbi Mizrachi banned for saying what Shabbat is, they're complete monsters and enemies to the Jewish people. I'm telling you buddy, stay far away from these people, I fought against them and their half-religious or complete atheist armies (who they openly support, and light years more than they do religious Jews, and baalei teshuva in general) and I haven't seen anything like that outside of university and nazi youtube commentators. One guy openly said he wants Judaism to disappear. I remember you disliked them before, and G-d willing it stays that way, but I'm telling you, keep away from them; I know what manipulators are like, and they're reasonably good at it, and if you don't know the tactics they'll get you with little things and from there everything could go wrong.
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Maybe I'll comment more.later.but again what.you said is on milhemit reshut and.not milhemit.misswah. and.yes I listened to that.lecture.by.R.Gladstein. he mentions.it as.well and this is know ln.in halacha.
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For reference I have reproduced Chapter 5 of Rambams Mishneh Torah Sefer Shoftim regarding the Milchemet Mitzvah...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188349/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-5.htm
Halacha 1
A king should not wage other wars before a milchemet mitzvah. What is considered as milchemet mitzvah? The war against the seven nations who occupied Eretz Yisrael, the war against Amalek, and a war fought to assist Israel from an enemy which attacks them.
Afterwards, he may wage a milchemet hareshut, i.e. a war fought with other nations in order to expand the borders of Israel or magnify its greatness and reputation.
Halacha 2
There is no need to seek the permission of the court to wage a milchemet mitzvah. Rather, he may go out on his own volition and force the nation to go out with him. In contrast, he may not lead the nation out to wage a milchemat hareshut unless the court of seventy one judges approves.
Halacha 3
The king may burst through the fences surrounding fields or vineyards to make a road and no one can take issue with him.
There is no limit to the road the king may make. Rather, it may be as wide as necessary. He need not make his road crooked because of an individual's vineyard or field. Rather, he may proceed on a straight path and carry out his war.
Halacha 4
It is a positive commandment to annihilate the seven nations who dwelled in Eretz Yisrael as Deuteronomy 20:17 states: 'You shall utterly destroy them.'
Anyone who chances upon one of them and does not kill him violates a negative commandment as ibid.:16 states: 'Do not allow a soul to live.' The memory of them has already been obliterated.
Halacha 5
Similarly, it is a positive commandment to destroy the memory of Amalek, as Deuteronomy 25:19 states: 'Obliterate the memory of Amalek.
It is also a positive commandment to constantly remember their evil deeds and their ambush of Israel to arouse our hatred of them, as ibid.:17 states: 'Remember what Amalek did to you.' The Oral Tradition teaches: ...Remember' - with your mouths; ...Do not forget' - in your hearts.' For it is forbidden to forget our hatred and enmity for them.
Halacha 6
All the lands which Israel conquers in wars led by a king and approved by the court are considered as conquered by the people at large. Thus, they have the same status as Eretz Yisrael which was conquered by Joshua in every regard. This only applies if they were conquered after the conquest of Eretz Yisrael as described in the Torah.
Halacha 7
It is permitted to dwell anywhere in the entire world with the exception of the land of Egypt. Its territory includes a square of 400 parsah by 400 parsah from the Mediterranean Sea proceeding westward, bordering on the land of Kush and the desert. It is forbidden to dwell in this entire territory.
In three places, the Torah warned against returning to Egypt:
a) 'God has told you, you must never again return on that path' (Deuteronomy 17:16);
b) 'You shall not see it again' (Deuteronomy 28:68);
c) 'You shall never see them again forever' (Exodus 14:13).
Alexandria is included in this prohibition.
Halacha 8
It is permitted to return to Egypt for the purpose of trade and commerce and to pass through while conquering other nations. The prohibition consists of settling there.
Lashes are not given as punishment for the violation of this prohibition because at the time one enters, there is no prohibition. Should he decide to settle there, there is no deed involved.
It appears to me that if a king of Israel would conquer the land of Egypt with the approval of the court, it would be permissible to settle there. The prohibition against returning was only given to individuals or to dwell there while it is under the rule of the gentiles for their behavior is more depraved than that of the peoples of other lands as can be inferred from Leviticus 18:3: 'Do not follow the ways of Egypt....'
Halacha 9
It is forbidden to leave Eretz Yisrael for the Diaspora at all times except:
to study Torah;
to marry; or
to save one's property from the gentiles.
After accomplishing these objectives, one must return to Eretz Yisrael.
Similarly, one may leave Eretz Yisrael to conduct commercial enterprises. However, it is forbidden to leave with the intent of settling permanently in the Diaspora unless the famine in Eretz Yisrael is so severe that a dinar's worth of wheat is sold at two dinarim.
When do these conditions apply? When one possesses financial resources and food is expensive. However, if food is inexpensive, but a person cannot find financial resources or employment and has no money available, he may leave and go to any place where he can find relief.
Though it is permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael under these circumstances, it is not pious behavior. Behold, Machlon and Kilyon were two of the great men of the generation and they left Eretz Yisrael only out of great distress. Nevertheless, they were found worthy of death by God.
Halacha 10
Great sages would kiss the borders of Eretz Yisrael, kiss its stones, and roll in its dust. Similarly, Psalms 102:15 declares: 'Behold, your servants hold her stones dear and cherish her dust.'
Halacha 11
The Sages commented: 'Whoever dwells in Eretz Yisrael will have his sins forgiven as Isaiah 33:24 states: 'The inhabitant shall not say 'I am sick.' The people who dwell there shall be forgiven their sins.'
Even one who walks four cubits there will merit the world to come and one who is buried there receives atonement as if the place in which he is buried is an altar of atonement as Deuteronomy 32:43 states: 'His land will atone for His people.' In contrast, the prophet, Amos [7:17, used the expression] 'You shall die in an impure land' as a prophecy of retribution.
There is no comparison between the merit of a person who lives in Eretz Yisrael and ultimately, is buried there and one whose body is brought there after his death. Nevertheless, great Sages would bring their dead there. Take an example, from our Patriarch, Jacob, and Joseph, the righteous.
Halacha 12
At all times, a person should dwell in Eretz Yisrael even in a city whose population is primarily gentile, rather than dwell in the Diaspora, even in a city whose population is primarily Jewish.
This applies because whoever leaves Eretz Yisrael for the Diaspora is considered as if he worships idols as I Samuel 26:19 states 'They have driven me out today from dwelling in the heritage of God, saying 'Go, serve other gods.' Similarly, Ezekiel's (13:9) prophecies of retribution state: 'They shall not come to the land of Israel.'
Just as it is forbidden to leave the chosen land for the Diaspora, it is also forbidden to leave Babylon for other lands as Jeremiah 27:22 states: 'They shall be brought to Babylon and there they shall be until I take heed of them... and restore them to this place.'
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Chapter Six continues with the Commanded War...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188350/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-6.htm
Halacha 1
War, neither a milchemet hareshut or a milchemet mitzvah, should not be waged against anyone until they are offered the opportunity of peace as Deuteronomy 20:10 states: 'When you approach a city to wage war against it, you should propose a peaceful settlement.'
If the enemy accepts the offer of peace and commits itself to the fulfillment of the seven mitzvot that were commanded to Noah's descendents, none of them should be killed. Rather, they should be subjugated as ibid.:11 states: 'They shall be your subjects and serve you.'
If they agree to tribute, but do not accept subjugation or if they accept subjugation, but do not agree to tribute, their offer should not be heeded. They must accept both.
The subjugation they must accept consists of being on a lower level, scorned and humble. They must never raise their heads against Israel, but must remain subjugated under their rule. They may never be appointed over a Jew in any matter whatsoever.
The tribute they must accept consists of being prepared to support the king's service with their money and with their persons; for example, the building of walls, strengthening the fortresses, building the king's palace, and the like as I Kings 9:15-22) relates: "This is the tribute which Solomon raised to build the House of God, his own palace, the Milo, the wall of Jerusalem,... and all the store-cities which Solomon had... All the people that remained from the Amorites... upon them did Solomon lay a tribute of bondservice until this day."
In contrast, Solomon did not make bondsmen out of the children of Israel. They were men of war, his personal servants, his princes, his captains, the officers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
Halacha 2
In the settlement he offers, the king may propose that he is entitled to take half their financial resources. Or he may propose to take all their landed property and leave them their movable property; or to take all their movable property and leave their land.
Halacha 3
It is forbidden to lie when making such a covenant or to be untruthful to them after they have made peace and accepted the seven mitzvot.
Halacha 4
If they do not agree to a peaceful settlement, or if they agree to a peaceful settlement, but refuse to accept the seven mitzvot, war should be waged against them.
All males past majority should be killed. Their money and their children should be taken as spoil, but neither women or children should be killed, as Deuteronomy 20:14 states: 'But the women and the children... take as spoil." 'The children' refer to males below the age of majority.
The above applies to a milchemet hareshut fought with other nations. However, if either the seven nations or Amalek refuse to accept a peaceful settlement, not one soul of them may be left alive as ibid. 20:15-16 states: 'Do this to all the cities that ... are not the cities of these nations. However, from the cities of these nations,... do not leave a soul alive.' Similarly, in regard to Amalek, Deuteronomy 25:19 states: 'Obliterate the memory of Amalek.'
How do we know that these commands are only referring to those who did not accept a peaceful settlement? Joshua 11:19-20 states: 'There was no city which accepted a peaceful settlement with the children of Israel except the Chivites who lived in Gibeon. All the rest, they conquered in battle. This was inspired by God, Who strengthened their hearts to engage in battle against Israel so that they would be destroyed.' From these statements, we can infer that a peaceful settlement was offered, but they did not accept it.
Halacha 5
Joshua sent three letters to the Canaanites before entering the promised land: At first, he sent them: 'Whoever desires to flee, should flee.'
Afterwards, he sent a second message: 'Whoever desires to accept a peaceful settlement, should make peace.'
Then, he sent again: 'Whoever desires war, should do battle.'
If so, why did the inhabitants of Gibeon employ a ruse? Because originally, when he sent the message to them as part of all the Canaanite nations, they did not accept. They were not aware of the laws of Israel and thought that they would never be offered a peaceful settlement again.
Why was the matter difficult for the princes of Israel to accept to the point that they desired to slay the Gibeonites by the sword were it not for the oath they had taken? Because they made a covenant with them and Deuteronomy 7:2 states 'Do not make a covenant with them.' Rather, the laws governing their status would have prescribed that they be subjugated as servants.
Since the oath was given to them under false pretenses, it would have been just to slay them for misleading them, were it not for the dishonor to God's name which would have been caused.
Halacha 6
No offer of a peaceful settlement should be made to Ammon and Moav, as Deuteronomy 23:7 states: 'Do not seek their peace and welfare for all your days.' Our Sages declared: Although it is written: 'Offer a peaceful settlement,' does this apply to Ammon and Moab? The Torah states: 'Do not seek their peace and welfare.'
Although it is written Deuteronomy 23:17: 'He must be allowed to live alongside you in you midst,' does this apply to Ammon and Moav? No, the Torah also forbids 'their welfare.'
Even though we should not offer them a peaceful settlement, if they sue for peace themselves, we may accept their offer.
Halacha 7
When a siege is placed around a city to conquer it, it should not be surrounded on all four sides, only on three. A place should be left for the inhabitants to flee and for all those who desire, to escape with their lives, as it is written Numbers 31:7: 'And they besieged Midian as God commanded Moses.' According to tradition, He commanded them to array the siege as described.
Halacha 8
We should not cut down fruit trees outside a city nor prevent an irrigation ditch from bringing water to them so that they dry up, as Deuteronomy 20:19 states: 'Do not destroy its trees.' Anyone who cuts down such a tree should be lashed.
This does not apply only in a siege, but in all situations. Anyone who cuts down a fruit tree with a destructive intent, should be lashed.
Nevertheless, a fruit tree may be cut down if it causes damage to other trees or to fields belonging to others, or if a high price could be received for its wood. The Torah only prohibited cutting down a tree with a destructive intent.
Halacha 9
It is permissible to cut down any non-fruit bearing tree, even if one has no need for it. Similarly, one may cut down a fruit bearing tree that has become old and produces only a slight yield which does not warrant the effort required to care for it.
What is the yield that an olive tree must produce to warrant that it should not be cut down? A quarter of a kav of olives. Similarly, a date palm which yields a kav of dates should not be cut down.
Halacha 10
This prohibition does not apply to trees alone. Rather, anyone who breaks utensils, tears garments, destroys buildings, stops up a spring, or ruins food with a destructive intent transgresses the command 'Do not destroy.' However, he is not lashed. Instead, he receives stripes for rebellious conductas instituted by the Sages.
Halacha 11
We should lay siege to the gentiles' cities at least three days before the Sabbath. We may engage in battle with them every day, even on the Sabbath, as Deuteronomy 20:20 states: 'against the city waging war with you until you subjugate it.' Our Sages explain: this implies 'even on the Sabbath.' This applies to both a milchemet mitzvah and a milchemet hareshut.
Halacha 12
The army may camp anywhere.
A person killed in the war should be buried where he falls. He acquires that place in the same manner as a meit mitzvah acquires his.
13. Four leniencies are permitted in an army camp:
a) Demai may be eaten.
b) There is no requirement to wash one's hands before eating bread.
c) Wood may be gathered from anywhere. Even if one finds wood that has been cut down and dried, there is no objection to taking it for an army camp.
d) There is no obligation to make an eruv chatzeirot for an army camp. Rather, one may carry from tent to tent and from booth to booth.
The latter is only permitted when the entire camp is surrounded by a barrier at least ten handbreadths high, for as explained in Hilchot Shabbat, a barrier must be at least ten handbreadths high.
Just as these leniencies apply when the army goes out to war, they apply when it returns.
Halacha 14
It is forbidden to defecate in an army camp or in an open field anywhere. Rather, it is a positive commandment to establish comfort facilities for the soldiers to defecate as Deuteronomy 23:13 commands: 'Designate a place outside the camp to use as a lavatory.'
Halacha 15
Similarly, it is a positive commandment for every single soldier to have a spike hanging together with his weapons. When he goes out and uses those comfort facilities, he should dig with it, relieve himself, and cover his excrement as ibid.:14 states 'You must keep a spike among your weapons.'
They must follow these practices at all times, whether the ark accompanies them or not, as ibid.:15 states: 'God walks among your camp,... therefore, your camp shall be holy.'
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No one really answered if the "rationalists" try to say if electricity is ok on Shabbos.
Anyways, I think the general consensus is that Zevi Chaim and Dana Cohen are fake profiles of other people who don't want to use their names.
The general online consensus is that Dana Cohen is not really a woman but a man who uses the "Dana Cohen" profile.
If I am wrong about any of this, please let me know. I will be more than happy to drop the topic, iIt just seems odd that in the online world, people hear Divrei Torah from someone whose profile picture is of some immodestly dressed lady who is actually more from an online dating logo than an actual facebook user's picture.
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Dana International's real name is Yaron Cohen. He is the transsexual singer who "won" Eurovision in 1998 creating an international Chillul Hashem. I wonder if there is an connection.
I think you're talking about someone else. I mean "Dana Cohen" from facebook, whom the general consensus is that it's not a real profile. Not the person you mentioned.
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I think you're talking about someone else. I mean "Dana Cohen" from facebook, whom the general consensus is that it's not a real profile. Not the person you mentioned.
Maybe that's why he took that name. Maybe he was imitating that evil singer.
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No one really answered if the "rationalists" try to say if electricity is ok on Shabbos.
Don't know but the consensus among the Poskim is that it is Assur on Shabbat. Their was a time when certain North African Hachamim thought it might be allowed I think possibly on Yom Tov though, but the consensus and knowing how it works better as well is that it is assur both on Shabbat and on Yom Tov.
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Dan,
Your analysis is almost correct. The mystical tradition goes way back before you claim it does.
There is an oral tradition which was not written down till later dates, and this tradition was known by many of the sages.
I will not argue again about this because it is tiring to hear your understanding of Jewish belief because it insults a great number of Jews of many traditions.
The concepts and teachings of the 'hidden' meanings of the Torah are an integral part of Jewish belief and custom.
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No one really answered if the "rationalists" try to say if electricity is ok on Shabbos.
Anyways, I think the general consensus is that Zevi Chaim and Dana Cohen are fake profiles of other people who don't want to use their names.
The general online consensus is that Dana Cohen is not really a woman but a man who uses the "Dana Cohen" profile.
If I am wrong about any of this, please let me know. I will be more than happy to drop the topic, iIt just seems odd that in the online world, people hear Divrei Torah from someone whose profile picture is of some immodestly dressed lady who is actually more from an online dating logo than an actual facebook user's picture.
The conserved and deform say electricity is allowed.
Dana is not a real person, I know someone who knows who it is, but won't say because he thinks we will speak lashon hara (and he's definitely right), and it's supposed to be a man in New York that goes around making fun of Haredi and Chassidic Jews and trying to get them to leave it. He puts the picture so he can get Jews to ask why he isn't dressed modestly, and then attack them and try to humilate them in public, which is his specialty in manipulation (not that he's actually that good at it, but it works a lot, with people that don't really want to keep mitzvot in the first place).
Zevi Chaim, I'm pretty sure that it is a real person, and he was in one of the best yeshivot in the States, and now supports "Modern open Orthodox", who are reform, and spends his life attacking Torah.
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Maybe I'll comment more.later.but again what.you said is on milhemit reshut and.not milhemit.misswah. and.yes I listened to that.lecture.by.R.Gladstein. he mentions.it as.well and this is know ln.in halacha.
Oh, well thanks. That was just a side point anyways, and there's still plenty of sticks for the argument to stand on. Try to whack it down if you want then, this is fun.
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As if on cue, http://www.divineinformation.com/parashat-massey-the-war-and-current-events-2/
Tell me you wouldn't give your right arm to see a PM Mizrachi.
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In the earlier part of the 1900's, many great American rabbis would turn on lights on Yom Tov but they wouldn't turn them off. They thought it was like lighting a candle from an existing flame. So they would turn lights on and by the end of Yom Tov the whole house would be light because they couldn't turn them off. Starting a new flame and turning on a light on Yom Tov is only an Isur DeRabbanan. Putting out a flame and turning off a light on Yom Tov is an Isur D'Oraita.
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In the earlier part of the 1900's, many great American rabbis would turn on lights on Yom Tov but they wouldn't turn them off. They thought it was like lighting a candle from an existing flame. So they would turn lights on and by the end of Yom Tov the whole house would be light because they couldn't turn them off. Starting a new flame and turning on a light on Yom Tov is only an Isur DeRabbanan. Putting out a flame and turning off a light on Yom Tov is an Isur D'Oraita.
It's from the Rabbis, because it won't be long before you start turning them off. Also, that's 2 sins, 1 to obey the Rabbis from the Torah, and 1 for not obeying their order. Also, the opinion may have changed, I don't know.
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It's from the Rabbis, because it won't be long before you start turning them off. Also, that's 2 sins, 1 to obey the Rabbis from the Torah, and 1 for not obeying their order. Also, the opinion may have changed, I don't know.
Has to do with the technology and understanding it. R BarHayim says its assure. Rabbi Abadi says no until further notice
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The conserved and deform say electricity is allowed.
Dana is not a real person, I know someone who knows who it is, but won't say because he thinks we will speak lashon hara (and he's definitely right), and it's supposed to be a man in New York that goes around making fun of Haredi and Chassidic Jews and trying to get them to leave it. He puts the picture so he can get Jews to ask why he isn't dressed modestly, and then attack them and try to humilate them in public, which is his specialty in manipulation (not that he's actually that good at it, but it works a lot, with people that don't really want to keep mitzvot in the first place).
Zevi Chaim, I'm pretty sure that it is a real person, and he was in one of the best yeshivot in the States, and now supports "Modern open Orthodox", who are reform, and spends his life attacking Torah.
I feel bad for all the men who drool over his supposed "Dana" profile picture thinking she's an attractive girl.
I am very surprised Zevi Chaim is a real person though, I thought that was just a screename for whatever his real name is. Would you know anything about a "Diana Lopez"? Not like it matters, all those people strike me as odd in a way.
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I feel bad for all the men who drool over his supposed "Dana" profile picture thinking she's an attractive girl.
I am very surprised Zevi Chaim is a real person though, I thought that was just a screename for whatever his real name is. Would you know anything about a "Diana Lopez"? Not like it matters, all those people strike me as odd in a way.
Zevi may be a fake name, but I couldn't get a straight answer out of people about his real identity after I asked for his SIN number, but apparently he comes from a really good family, and nobody knows why he turned into a rasha. I don't know Diana Lopez, but people assumed that a girl in England named that was really Dana Cohen, but I don't know anything about it.
Odd? They're trying to get Torah speakers banned from speaking. They were attacking an Austrialian Rabbi for saying what homosexuality is. They're coomplete reshaim.
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Odd? They're trying to get Torah speakers banned from speaking. They were attacking an Austrialian Rabbi for saying what homosexuality is. They're coomplete reshaim.
Well, I meant they are odd in the sense of their strange profiles. Other than that, I agree with you completely about them being reshaim.
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Well, I meant they are odd in the sense of their strange profiles. Other than that, I agree with you completely about them being reshaim.
OK yeah before I knew there was a lot of theories about them because indeed they are very suspect. They were also attacking Rabbi Mizrachi's proofs against the phony testament with Alter Croker Jewish Athiest (YS"V) and defending xtianity while attacking Judaism, so we thought that they were some sort of xtians getting revenge. It turns out they're just interested in doing anything to attack their own, and maintain discretion because if people knew, the only people that would marry them are deform converts from Saudi Arabia.
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I had my doubts about them as well. It seems, however, that the majority of the followers they attract are either atheist or not even Jewish or had some fake conversion that they "rationalize" as being legitimate b’dieved blah blah. Not worth our time.
I guess "Dana Cohen" really is Jewish then.
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Shalom, I'm a new poster here (as well as a BT of almost 6 yrs now, thanks to the music of Avraham Fried and Lipa).....but I do have an issue with some of Rabbi Mizrachi's lectures - now, when I became BT (from a secular home) I listened to all of the talks on 'Simple To Remember' as well as every one I could download from Chabad.org. I was in a 'very strange land' at that time - but back then, Chabad was all I had, online.
I definitely disagree with his definition of reincarnation (as per Chabad, Breslov, and Zohar/Kabbalah - not the 'madonna' kind, I assure you!!) and his misnagdim approach towards Tanya (and Ba'al Shem Tov/Chassidut)....but the words he speaks are emes. He says things most of us want to say, and know that are true, but dare not. I have the utmost respect for him - even though, through my stilted education, I disagree on many points, from a purely Chassidic point of view.
Who is right?
Still searching for the answer to that, especially these days........when it seems as though Eretz HaKodesh is all darkness....and the 'seculars' are expressing disdain for the secular government (as I do too - but I don't hold with 'secular' Jews...it's an oxymoron of the worst kind!!).
Please post links for more of Rav Kahana's talks and writings.......searching desperately here. We need Moshiach now, more than ever.....yet "Just One Shabbos" seems so far away. As for Tisha B'Av? How many 'seculars' do you think even thought about it, with all its implications?
Todah raba......
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Rachel-613 asked:
Please post links for more of Rav Kahana's talks and writings.......
Try to start with
http://www.rabbikahane.org/Movies.aspx?id=0
On that web site they also have a contact link.
Ask them where you can acquire the English translation of Ohr Haraayon
Which I believe is entitled the Jewish Idea in English.
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Shalom, I'm a new poster here (as well as a BT of almost 6 yrs now, thanks to the music of Avraham Fried and Lipa).....but I do have an issue with some of Rabbi Mizrachi's lectures - now, when I became BT (from a secular home) I listened to all of the talks on 'Simple To Remember' as well as every one I could download from Chabad.org. I was in a 'very strange land' at that time - but back then, Chabad was all I had, online.
I definitely disagree with his definition of reincarnation (as per Chabad, Breslov, and Zohar/Kabbalah - not the 'madonna' kind, I assure you!!) and his misnagdim approach towards Tanya (and Ba'al Shem Tov/Chassidut)....but the words he speaks are emes. He says things most of us want to say, and know that are true, but dare not. I have the utmost respect for him - even though, through my stilted education, I disagree on many points, from a purely Chassidic point of view.
Who is right?
Still searching for the answer to that, especially these days........when it seems as though Eretz HaKodesh is all darkness....and the 'seculars' are expressing disdain for the secular government (as I do too - but I don't hold with 'secular' Jews...it's an oxymoron of the worst kind!!).
Please post links for more of Rav Kahana's talks and writings.......searching desperately here. We need Moshiach now, more than ever.....yet "Just One Shabbos" seems so far away. As for Tisha B'Av? How many 'seculars' do you think even thought about it, with all its implications?
Todah raba......
You aren't forced to like Rabbi Mizrachi to be on JTF, though I pretty much do in just about everything.
Do you not believe that reincarnation happens, or do you think some other form of reincarnation takes place? If you think it doesn't happen, how do you explain the concept of justice on earth (good things happening to bad people and bad things to good people)? Not trying to draw you out on this, it's just the Rabbi's question.
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Rachel-613 asked:Try to start with
http://www.rabbikahane.org/Movies.aspx?id=0
On that web site they also have a contact link.
Ask them where you can acquire the English translation of Ohr Haraayon
Which I believe is entitled the Jewish Idea in English.
Amazon.com for sure has it
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Welcome Rachel-613...
I hope you will find JTF to your liking. There are many great talks by Rabbi Kahane on Youtube (which I suppose you may have already searched)...
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Rachel-613 stated
Do you not believe that reincarnation happens, or do you think some other form of reincarnation takes place? If you think it doesn't happen, how do you explain the concept of justice on earth (good things happening to bad people and bad things to good people)? Not trying to draw you out on this, it's just the Rabbi's question.
If you look at the Biblical Book of Iyov/Job the text on the simple level, indicates that Iyov suffered because of some accusation of the accusing angel Satan and G-d sets out to prove Satan is wrong by putting him to the test.
When Iyov later asks G-d why did G-d allow all the suffering that came upon Iyov, G-d does not answer him reincarnation. Instead, he raises all sorts of issues of nature and science and basically says to Iyov, just as you don't understand how these things work, you don't understand my ways and are not capable of understanding my ways.
Without taking a personal stance on the issue of reincarnation, someone who does not accept the concept of reincarnation might simply say, I don't understand all the ways of Divine Justice, but that does not mean it is not Just, it merely means I have not reached the level of understanding to explain, why it is Just.
Our sages teach that the prophet Eliyahu, who was one of the few people who never died met with Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi and showed him all sorts of situations which made Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi ask Eliyahu, why was Bad befalling the Good People and Good befalling the Bad People?
In each of those situations, Eliyahu basically answered back, you Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi focused in on those situation based on a limited understanding of what was going on with that person and his community. Once he was filled in on the entire background of the people involved and the effects of getting something "good" or "bad" from G-d would have, he saw things in a different light.
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Welcome Rachel.
I am not sure if I understand about your question about Gilgul. You said you disagree on this from a purely Chassidic point of view? Maybe I misunderstood your statement since Chassidus would follow along with gilgul.
I am also confused by this statement: "and his misnagdim approach towards Tanya" are you talking about Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else?
We all have the freedom to disagree. Some people agree with Rabbi Mizrachi, some don't. I love him but I can respect people who say they disagree with him. No big deal to disagree.
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Rachel-613 statedIf you look at the Biblical Book of Iyov/Job the text on the simple level, indicates that Iyov suffered because of some accusation of the accusing angel Satan and G-d sets out to prove Satan is wrong by putting him to the test.
When Iyov later asks G-d why did G-d allow all the suffering that came upon Iyov, G-d does not answer him reincarnation. Instead, he raises all sorts of issues of nature and science and basically says to Iyov, just as you don't understand how these things work, you don't understand my ways and are not capable of understanding my ways.
Without taking a personal stance on the issue of reincarnation, someone who does not accept the concept of reincarnation might simply say, I don't understand all the ways of Divine Justice, but that does not mean it is not Just, it merely means I have not reached the level of understanding to explain, why it is Just.
Our sages teach that the prophet Eliyahu, who was one of the few people who never died met with Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi and showed him all sorts of situations which made Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi ask Eliyahu, why was Bad befalling the Good People and Good befalling the Bad People?
In each of those situations, Eliyahu basically answered back, you Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi focused in on those situation based on a limited understanding of what was going on with that person and his community. Once he was filled in on the entire background of the people involved and the effects of getting something "good" or "bad" from G-d would have, he saw things in a different light.
That works if the guy was 40. How do you explain how a baby can suffer and die terribly?
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That works if the guy was 40. How do you e. Ilain how a baby can suffer and die terribly?
Rambam explains its suffering for parents.
In the Talmud it says even Moshe Rabbeibu didn't understand suffering. If Moshe and the Talmud say they don't knowit You think anyone else do?
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Rambam explains its suffering for parents.
In the Talmud it says even Moshe Rabbeibu didn't understand suffering. If Moshe and the Talmud say they don't knowit You think anyone else do?
But why would the baby deserve to suffer? Hashem can punish the parents however he wants.
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It is believed that Moshe wrote Iyov...
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Rachel-613 statedIf you look at the Biblical Book of Iyov/Job the text on the simple level, indicates that Iyov suffered because of some accusation of the accusing angel Satan and G-d sets out to prove Satan is wrong by putting him to the test.
When Iyov later asks G-d why did G-d allow all the suffering that came upon Iyov, G-d does not answer him reincarnation. Instead, he raises all sorts of issues of nature and science and basically says to Iyov, just as you don't understand how these things work, you don't understand my ways and are not capable of understanding my ways.
Without taking a personal stance on the issue of reincarnation, someone who does not accept the concept of reincarnation might simply say, I don't understand all the ways of Divine Justice, but that does not mean it is not Just, it merely means I have not reached the level of understanding to explain, why it is Just.
Our sages teach that the prophet Eliyahu, who was one of the few people who never died met with Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi and showed him all sorts of situations which made Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi ask Eliyahu, why was Bad befalling the Good People and Good befalling the Bad People?
In each of those situations, Eliyahu basically answered back, you Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi focused in on those situation based on a limited understanding of what was going on with that person and his community. Once he was filled in on the entire background of the people involved and the effects of getting something "good" or "bad" from G-d would have, he saw things in a different light.
I posted most of this dialog between Hashem and Iyov in another thread (to demonstrate that we cannot comprehend Hashem, rather we can only relate to him through our experience)...
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,76955.msg639749.html#msg639749
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BTW, I am in the 'gilgul' camp...
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But why would the baby deserve to suffer? Hashem can punish the parents however he wants.
That's the thing perhaps it isn't really suffering.
Other opinions (I think it was Rav Saadia Gaon) say that the baby or person just gets compensated in the after life for suffering in this world.
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That's the thing perhaps it isn't really suffering.
Other opinions (I think it was Rav Saadia Gaon) say that the baby or person just gets compensated in the after life for suffering in this world.
It cries and turns blue. It's suffering. We have proven that babies feel pain and emotion in the womb, and they logically would continue to do so after exiting and walking around.
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It cries and turns blue. It's suffering. We have proven that babies feel pain and emotion in the womb, and they logically would continue to do so after exiting and walking around.
So? Just because claiming reincarnation is a good excuse doesn't mean its correct and true.
+ the whole argument falls apart when I already mentioned the fact that Cain murdered Abel. If a similar situation happened today you and those like you could brush it off with the excuse of "gilgulim" , BUT in this case no one was before them besides Adam and Eve and they were alive at the time and one of them was murdered by the other.
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So? Just because claiming reincarnation is a good excuse doesn't mean its correct and true.
+ the whole argument falls apart when I already mentioned the fact that Cain murdered Abel. If a similar situation happened today you and those like you could brush it off with the excuse of "gilgulim" , BUT in this case no one was before them besides Adam and Eve and they were alive at the time and one of them was murdered by the other.
There are reasons why. Abel was making Cain jealous. Things can happen to someone without gilgulim involved, it's not a catch all explanation for why everything ever happens, but it does have its place.
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I am not going to go into all of what I know about the concepts of Gilgulim. But the basic concept is that Adam HaRishon actually was composed of 600,000 root souls which compromise all souls which exist today. These root souls are scattered and we contain bits of these souls in us. Maybe if there is interest I can post some of the ideas concerning this topic.
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1288460/jewish/Soul-Roots-in-the-Shoulders-172.htm
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1287945/jewish/Six-Hundred-Thousand-Souls-171.htm
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There are reasons why. Abel was making Cain jealous. Things can happen to someone without gilgulim involved, it's not a catch all explanation for why everything ever happens, but it does have its place.
Making someone jealous isn't an excuse to get punished with death. + who is to even say that he was.responsible for making him jealous. In fact.its.clear that he was rightious that's why his offering was accepted and Cains was not.
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Making someone jealous isn't an excuse to get punished with death. + who is to even say that he was responsible for making him jealous. In fact it's clear that he was righteous that's why his offering was accepted and Cain's was not.
Yeah there's a discussion in Gemarra or something that says he wasn't being very considerate of his brother who had given birth to less girls. I forget where I heard this, but it was in a lecture with a Rabbi, so probably Rabbi Mizrachi quoting it. Also, if I can give my humble opinion, the less incestuous thing that could have happened would be for each of the to marry each other's daughters, so they should have shared, which perhaps points to the same thing, but could also lead one to believe that there were other things involved with this behavior that made him do this out of anger and jealousy.
Also, remember that Cain had no idea what he was doing, and said "my sin is too great for me to bear" not because Cain was whining, but because he realized how terrible his sin was. So that action could have been the beginning of something that needed to be corrected. Cain got his punishment in this world, bringing some justice to him, and Abel got an extreme punishment for something comparatively small. Both were seemingly done out of ignorance and lack of empathy for the other's feelings. Some things did get corrected, and there was justice in this life, and really Cain should have gone to Gehinom, and Avel should be resurrected in Olam Haba, but G-d gave Cain a chance to correct his midot and Avel a chance to earn his reward, because if you sin on accident, you deserve the consequence for lack of empathy, trying to understand, but you don't get punished because you didn't understand. After they got their punishment for their lack of empathy, they get another chance to come back here and correct their lack of empathy between them and each other and their lack of knowledge between them and G-d.
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What?
Your just making things up. Its not a good explanation at all.
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Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?
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What?
Your just making things up. Its not a good explanation at all.
The response was the first sentence, the rest was me going into it and trying to prove that the point is that it is something that each one got punished for individually and there was something each one wanted to correct on this world. There Adam is probably getting punished for something too by the way, but there's still divine justice. That divine justice is making each get a punishment for what he did wrong, (and maybe living a life as an outcast had elements that made some kapara for any unrighteousness that led to him giving the vegetable offering) and there is order in this world, but Kaballah on this serves to explain divine mercy, that each get another shot since they didn't get a chance to make a real choice and have a fair test.
Each one only got a deserved punishment for something they didn't understand was wrong in this life, and so they can't go to Gehinom, they have to have another shot to do things right, or else they enter heaven without everything they wanted.
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Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?
What is your interest in the response to any of these questions?
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I want to know what he thinks? How he thinks it works?
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Tag, so do you think you only get one life on this earth? After you die do you stay in the after life for 6000 year's until the redemption? Have you completed all of the 613 your whole life? If not do you wish you could go back and change it? Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?
Do you think that you will fulfill all 613 Misswot? If not you then do you think that every Jew will fulfill ever one of the 613 Misswoth? If so then it would have to take billions of "reincarnations" because every Jew would then have to at least be a Kohen Gadol (and not just a Kohen but a Kohen Gadol) and that each Jew would have to live or lived at the time of the Beit Hamikdash so that he can serve in the Holy Temple and do many of the Misswoth associated with it and that only a Kohen Gadol can do.
- Everyone would have to get divorced as well, at least at 1 time because their is a Misswah to give a wife a get. Every man would have to be a female and vice-versa.
-Everyone would have to experience someone dying near them so they can bury the dead.
- Each Jew would have to be born into a life of being a Judge.
- Each Jew would have to know how to calculate the planetary system so that he can announce when is Rosh Hodesh
Still think that its a must?
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Is there an afterlife? Is there a redemption? If not, what is the point?
Of-course their is.
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At most, Tag, only 600,000 reincarnations because the belief is based on only 600,000 root souls...
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Rashi in his commentary to Bamidbar/Numbers 16:27 (which talks about the family of Datan and Aviram along with their fathers being swallowed up by the ground, for initiating a rebellion against the authority of Moshe as G-d's prophet and casting doubt upon the Divine Authority of sections of the Torah) states the following:
"Come and see how severe is (the punishment of) strife: for the court below does not punish before (the defendant) brings two hairs (a symptom of maturitiy); and the court above - (not) until (the defendant is) twenty years old; but here there perished even those who suckled at the breast(ibid).
Also on the Biblical verse Dvarim/Deuteronomy 24:16 it says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Rashi comments:
The fathers shall not be put to death by the children (I.e.) by the testimony of the children. And if you say by the iniquity of the children, then it has already been stated, "Every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Every man shall be put to death for his own sin But one who not yet a man dies for the iniquity of his father, and minors die for the iniquity of their parents at the hand of Heaven
Conclusion: there are situations according to Rashi where young babies die as a punishment for the sins of their father.
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Rashi in his commentary to Bamidbar/Numbers 16:27 (which talks about the family of Datan and Aviram along with their fathers being swallowed up by the ground, for initiating a rebellion against the authority of Moshe as G-d's prophet and casting doubt upon the Divine Authority of sections of the Torah) states the following:Also on the Biblical verse Dvarim/Deuteronomy 24:16 it says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Rashi comments:Conclusion: there are situations according to Rashi where young babies die as a punishment for the sins of their father.
OK, but that's the point, they were put there because they needed that suffering to make a correction, and it doesn't violate the principle of divine justice on this world.
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OK, but that's the point, they were put there because they needed that suffering to make a correction, and it doesn't violate the principle of divine justice on this world.
No its not, that's just you putting your point or words into Rashi's words. If this would be so then he would have said it that way and not the way that he said it.
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At most, Tag, only 600,000 reincarnations because the belief is based on only 600,000 root souls...
How did you get that? It would have to be more than that for sure, because who said that when a person was born that they accomplished what they were supposed to do? + it would mean that their would have to be at least millions of years ahead for their to be a chance to do all the Misswoth (as suggested by Ephraim) because how many years did we even have the Temple standing? And how many people had the chance to be a Kohen Gadol? Also by your Haskafa their isn't supposed to be free choice after Moshiah (the same people who speak of reincarnation often say this as well and that Moshiah is the last generation and no more test afterwards) so that would mean that no one would have a chance to do all 613 Mitzvot because it would be impossible to have this mant Kohen Gadols being born and doing their job.
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No its not, that's just you putting your point or words into Rashi's words. If this would be so then he would have said it that way and not the way that he said it.
He didn't say it, other Rabbis showed that the principles work together.
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How did you get that? It would have to be more than that for sure, because who said that when a person was born that they accomplished what they were supposed to do? + it would mean that their would have to be at least millions of years ahead for their to be a chance to do all the Misswoth (as suggested by Ephraim) because how many years did we even have the Temple standing? And how many people had the chance to be a Kohen Gadol? Also by your Haskafa their isn't supposed to be free choice after Moshiah (the same people who speak of reincarnation often say this as well and that Moshiah is the last generation and no more test afterwards) so that would mean that no one would have a chance to do all 613 Mitzvot because it would be impossible to have this mant Kohen Gadols being born and doing their job.
Sometimes a soul enters the world to just do one mitzvah and then it can pass to the next world. I am not an expert in the topic yet my understanding is the answer to your question has to do with sparks of the 600,000 root souls.
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Rambam explains its suffering for parents.
In the Talmud it says even Moshe Rabbeibu didn't understand suffering. If Moshe and the Talmud say they don't knowit You think anyone else do?
Couldn't it be that after the fall the world was corrupted and has to follow a natural order so that is why we have people born with genetic disorders and suffering and unfortunate events on the good and fortunate events on the wicked and also why there is a delay in receiving punishments and prayers being answered? Is there a term for this concept? Is this a foreign thought to Judaism?
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Couldn't it be that after the fall the world was corrupted and has to follow a natural order so that is why we have people born with genetic disorders and suffering and unfortunate events on the good and fortunate events on the wicked and also why there is a delay in receiving punishments and prayers being answered? Is there a term for this concept? Is this a foreign thought to Judaism?
We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin, and good events happen to bad people because the written Torah says "I am paying my haters cash to their face to get rid of them for eternity", and bad things happen to good people because the written Torah says "I am the righteous G-d who pays his lovers to eternity" and since Pirkei Avot says that "Hashem desired to make the Torah great and glorious (a lot of mitzvot) to benefit the nation of Israel", the suffering of the righteous in this life is an opportunity for them to earn more mitzvot, and correct the little bad that they did, so they can have a perfect teshuva and kappara in this world and a perfect world to come.
We know that without sin, people will still die because of the original sin, but everyone who didn't sin dies because of their sins, and a baby has a status of a monkey, so he can't sin or do mitzvot, so he hasn't really been tested now, and maybe that could be an explanation, that he didn't sin so it's only a correction for the original sin, but I think that doesn't make sense because dying because of the original sin seems to mean just dying of old age, an unnatural death seems to relate to a sin, so I don't know the halacha, but I don't think it applies in this situation, but you could find another explanation.
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Very good points LKZ, getting very good with your Talmudic thought, IMO...
I had written something similar to what you wrote concerning the dictum 'No man dies without sin' and 'There is not a righteous man who does not sin'.... Here is a small discussion of these ideas from Torah.org:
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5761/chukas.html
SHABBOS DAY:
This is the law when a man dies ... (Bamidbar 19:14)
Life is filled with uncertainties, but, death is not one of them. Ever since G-d delivered the dreaded verdict to Adam HaRishon for disobeying the commandment not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, death has become as much a part of life as life itself.
This is why the Talmud's statement seems a bit peculiar at first:
Rav Ammi said: There is no death without sin ... (Shabbos 55a)
Sure there is. Not only that, but there is even immortality even WITH sin, for, Ya'akov Avinu made at least a few small mistakes throughout the course of his long life, and yet he didn't die (Ta'anis 5b). And, elsewhere, the Talmud states that seven people went right to the Garden of Eden and did not die.
Not only this, but, there have been all kinds of righteous people throughout history who have died
True, Shlomo HaMelech wrote:
"There is no righteous person on the earth who does good and does not sin." (Koheles 7:20)
Which means that all the righteous people who have ever died have not gone completely sinless, which, is reasonable to assume. However, according to Rav Ammi, if they could have lived perfect lives, then, they would have not died, which is what the Talmud concludes:
Four people died because of the bite of the snake: Binyomin son of Ya'akov, Amram father of Moshe, Yishai father of Dovid, and, Kaleiv son of Dovid. (Shabbos 55b)
In other words, their lives were so perfect that, had it not been for the curse placed upon mankind because of the sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would not have died and lived for ever. Their deaths, therefore, were no fault of their own.
Regarding death, the Talmud teaches:
Anyone who cries for a 'kosher' person will have his own sins forgiven ... It is taught in a brisa: Rebi Shimon ben Elazar said: Anyone standing by a dead person at the time his soul leaves is obligated to tear. To what is this likened? To a Sefer Torah that was burned. (Shabbos 105b)
In other words, though normally one only tears one's clothing for certain close relatives, being by the person as his or her soul leaves This World is different. It is such a 'tragic' event, like a Sefer Torah being burned, G-d forbid, that all present at the time must likewise rent their clothes.
It is an interesting comparison. In a very real sense, the soul inside the body is like the holy letters written on the parchment of a Sefer Torah, and though we may forget this, the halachah does not. Rebi Chanina ben Teradyon, one of the Ten Martyrs to die at the hands of the Romans, also did not. For, when they had bound him and ignited him that he should die a slow and very painful death for teaching Torah in public, he told his overwhelmed students,
"The parchment burns, but the letters fly off!" (Avodah Zarah 18a)
Considering that Rebi Chanina was wrapped in the Sefer Torah from which he had been teaching when he Romans had found him, and the Talmudic dictum cited above, Rabbi Teradyon's statement had a double meaning. Both the parchment and his body burned -- true -- but the holy light encased in the letters of the Sefer Torah, along with the holy light that was his soul, flew heavenward, untouched and undamaged by the Roman executioners.
This idea gives new meaning to what it means to disgrace one's body with unholy activities. A body without a soul that once had one, still retains a level of holiness, just as a Sefer Torah does whose words have faded, and a talmid chacham who, G-d forbid, forgot his learning. How much more so is this true of a body that still retains its soul, whether one can feel and relate to that soul or not.
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We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin,
I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)
about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.
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I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)
about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.
Good question. I have not heard the question, nor the answer before.
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I had and have this question on this. Perhaps you can ask Rabbi Mizrachi or someone else. (Or people here can answer)
about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when their were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.
He explained it I forget watch the lecture where he talks about it.
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We have to work and die because of the original sin, and Gemarra states that the few people that didn't sin would have never died if not for the original sin, and good events happen to bad people because the written Torah says "I am paying my haters cash to their face to get rid of them for eternity", and bad things happen to good people because the written Torah says "I am the righteous G-d who pays his lovers to eternity" and since Pirkei Avot says that "Hashem desired to make the Torah great and glorious (a lot of mitzvot) to benefit the nation of Israel", the suffering of the righteous in this life is an opportunity for them to earn more mitzvot, and correct the little bad that they did, so they can have a perfect teshuva and kappara in this world and a perfect world to come.
We know that without sin, people will still die because of the original sin, but everyone who didn't sin dies because of their sins, and a baby has a status of a monkey, so he can't sin or do mitzvot, so he hasn't really been tested now, and maybe that could be an explanation, that he didn't sin so it's only a correction for the original sin, but I think that doesn't make sense because dying because of the original sin seems to mean just dying of old age, an unnatural death seems to relate to a sin, so I don't know the halacha, but I don't think it applies in this situation, but you could find another explanation.
No I am saying that maybe some things happen in this world because the physical world is broken and people have free will. I don't think Hashem hates the people in N. Korea so much that he wants them trapped in caves underground and has a spiteful vendetta against them because of who they were in past lives or the millions of other suffering people in this world. (I do believe in gilgul but don't believe it is necessary).
Instead we advocate for Tikkun Olam for example by feeding the poor, giving charity, or helping the sick. We don't say well they must be getting punished for something they did in a past life or this life, and that Hashem wants them to suffer and we shouldn't feel bad or not doing anything because that is what Hashem wants.Many mitzvot do have worldy implications for example the mishpatim.
I think Rabbi Mizrachi uses reincarnation in a way to explain justice in this world (everyone's paying measure for measure). I believe that Hashem will bring justice in the next world even if it does not get achieved in the physical world.
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The question was raised
about the 4 people that never sinned- if it says that they died because of the sin of Adam (because death was brought to the world as a result) why did they have to die when there were people who did not have to die and they did have sins? Such as Eliyahu HaNavi, Batya the daughter of Pharoh etc. Why did these 4 die when its possible not to die AND they didn't make any sins all of their life.
If you look at the people that did not die, they all directly brought great merit to the public.
It would seem sometimes bringing great merit to the public even if minor mistakes are made along the way is greater than someone who makes sure he has done no sins, but plays a less active role in bettering the public in a major way.
In addition we have a principle according to the pain (for doing a mitzva) is the reward.
Maybe those that never died overcame more significant challenges to do their mitzvas, than the 4 that never sinned.
Another possibility. Hashem rewards measure for measure. Maybe the few people who merited never to die, did an act which G-d's ways of measure for measure demanded that they never die.
The 4 people that never sinned might have done good deeds, but not the type of deeds that demanded, a measure for measure reward of eternal life without death.
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In the earlier part of the 1900's, many great American rabbis would turn on lights on Yom Tov but they wouldn't turn them off. They thought it was like lighting a candle from an existing flame. So they would turn lights on and by the end of Yom Tov the whole house would be light because they couldn't turn them off. Starting a new flame and turning on a light on Yom Tov is only an Isur DeRabbanan. Putting out a flame and turning off a light on Yom Tov is an Isur D'Oraita.
If you are talking about real rabbis, then if it's an issur derabanan they would NOT be doing it! They musthave understood from the sources that this was NOT an issur derabanan. You yourself say they cconsidered it like lighting from an existing flame - well, that's not prohibited. Your overall comment is contradictory and might be misleading to people. Perhaps you meant to say that subsequent rabbis of later generations decided it is not analogous to lighting from existing flame and therefore declared it as falling within the prohibitions of issur derabanan.
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The conserved and deform say electricity is allowed.
Dana is not a real person, I know someone who knows who it is, but won't say because he thinks we will speak lashon hara (and he's definitely right), and it's supposed to be a man in New York that goes around making fun of Haredi and Chassidic Jews and trying to get them to leave it. He puts the picture so he can get Jews to ask why he isn't dressed modestly, and then attack them and try to humilate them in public, which is his specialty in manipulation (not that he's actually that good at it, but it works a lot, with people that don't really want to keep mitzvot in the first place).
Zevi Chaim, I'm pretty sure that it is a real person, and he was in one of the best yeshivot in the States, and now supports "Modern open Orthodox", who are reform, and spends his life attacking Torah.
Actually, deform says we don't have to follow halacha. Conservative didn't start that way exactly but basically in the same camp today too.
The true halachic debate over electricity on shabbos was legitimate and involved the greatest scholars. Shlomo zalman auerbach had a different understanding of electricity vis a vis halachic considerations but his view was "overruled" so to speak in that people generally sided with the other great scholars and all the frum people today hold of the view of electricity that says it's forbidden ( I think because closing the circuit is considered a type of building, or something like that).
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No I am saying that maybe some things happen in this world because the physical world is broken and people have free will. I don't think Hashem hates the people in N. Korea so much that he wants them trapped in caves underground and has a spiteful vendetta against them because of who they were in past lives or the millions of other suffering people in this world. (I do believe in gilgul but don't believe it is necessary).
Instead we advocate for Tikkun Olam for example by feeding the poor, giving charity, or helping the sick. We don't say well they must be getting punished for something they did in a past life or this life, and that Hashem wants them to suffer and we shouldn't feel bad or not doing anything because that is what Hashem wants.Many mitzvot do have worldy implications for example the mishpatim.
I think Rabbi Mizrachi uses reincarnation in a way to explain justice in this world (everyone's paying measure for measure). I believe that Hashem will bring justice in the next world even if it does not get achieved in the physical world.
We know that Hashem wants the people in North Korea to go through what they're going through because it's happening. Like I said to Tag in his example about Adam, gilgulim is not a catch-all explanation why everything ever has happened. There could be plenty of sins in North Korea right now that make them require this punishment.
You have a problem though, because Rabbi Mizrachi brought the source that said there is divine justice in this world. Whether you use gilgulim or not, you need an explanation why everything happens is just, and saying there is no justice is heresy.
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We know that Hashem wants the people in North Korea to go through what they're going through because it's happening. Like I said to Tag in his example about Adam, gilgulim is not a catch-all explanation why everything ever has happened. There could be plenty of sins in North Korea right now that make them require this punishment.
You have a problem though, because Rabbi Mizrachi brought the source that said there is divine justice in this world. Whether you use gilgulim or not, you need an explanation why everything happens is just, and saying there is no justice is heresy.
Adam committed the first sin and this caused the degradation of the world we are in today. Every nation and person on the earth suffers or enjoys from what their ancestors have done to prepare them for the future and the merits of their ancestors. This is just in itself. It is counter productive to think that people are paying for their past lives when they don't know their past lives and can't be repentant of them (which would be unjust). We know that one who prepares for the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath. Not he who prepares for the Sabbath will not eat because of sins he committed in his past life.
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You have a problem though, because Rabbi Mizrachi brought the source that said there is divine justice in this world. Whether you use gilgulim or not, you need an explanation why everything happens is just, and saying there is no justice is heresy.
To your last point- no one said that their is no Justice. Their certainly is Justice but its not always in THIS WORLD. Their is an ultimate heshbone and people pay for their sins and get rewarded for their good. That is the real ultimate Justice. Seeing someone suffer here in this world and then feeling sorry for them/ or not believing that that person must have been some big time sinner doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in the Ultimate Justice.
FYI this just reminded me of the "justice system" of Sodom. Its like when a person got punched in the face, they said that because it happened it must have been that the person who got punched deserved it to happen. So they concluded that because he deserved it (I don't know, perhaps they also used the "gilgulim" argument, I don't know Im just speculating) then that person was the one who actually then pay the one who punched him.
This also happens in Indian (or happened) society with the Caste system. Just because someone was born into a certain caste it means and meant that they deserved it because of their belief in reincarnation.
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To your last point- no one said that their is no Justice. Their certainly is Justice but its not always in THIS WORLD. Their is an ultimate heshbone and people pay for their sins and get rewarded for their good. That is the real ultimate Justice. Seeing someone suffer here in this world and then feeling sorry for them/ or not believing that that person must have been some big time sinner doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in the Ultimate Justice.
The Rabbi's source indicated that there is justice both here and in the world to come.
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We know that Hashem wants the people in North Korea to go through what they're going through because it's happening. Like I said to Tag in his example about Adam, gilgulim is not a catch-all explanation why everything ever has happened. There could be plenty of sins in North Korea right now that make them require this punishment.
How do you know that? Maybe Hashem wants the people in North Korea to make Teshuva and to change their society instead?
Also perhaps they are going through what they are because they as a society CHOOSE the path and society they are in. Meaning they went with a dictator who offered them good and enticing things (mainly protection) ultimately to be stuck with him. It was similar to Pharoah in Egypt and in fact similar to tyrants throughout history.
They are reaping the fruits of the CONSEQUENCES of their actions as a society.
+ No one said that their is necessarily Divine PERSONAL intervention and judgment especially in this world. The nations are Judged as groups and societies, AND the Tzaddikim only merit Divine intervention or Hasgahat Pratit individually and only to the level that they personally achieve.
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The Rabbi's source indicated that there is justice both here and in the world to come.
which source?
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which source?
I don't know I'd have to go back and look.
Btw, he's becoming more and more exactly what I said. Wouldn't it be the greatest blessing if Rabbi Mizrachi became the religious head of JTF?
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/eliana-benador-rabbi-yosef-mizrachi-on-the-war-against-hamas/#
Despite having lost almost 70 young soldiers during this war and after 3,488 rocket attacks between July 8 and August 10, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu still insists in negotiating with the Hamas terrorists.
Meanwhile, a fiery Israeli-born Rabbi from Monsey, New York, is becoming the lightning rod trying to do “kiruv,” salvaging Jewish souls from the grip of unorthodox Jewish currents and a ramping liberalism.
He addresses thousands each week, getting rave reviews. His audiences encompass men and women of different ages, economic background and cultural origins.
Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi is having increasing success in social media and an impressive hit count on his English, Spanish and Russian websites.
During a recent visit to New York, Mizrachi was kind enough to accept my invitation for an interview about the situation in Israel. Here is what he had to say:
So Many Jews are Democrats. How Does Judaism Identify with Democracy?
“Democracy is the antithesis of Judaism. It is one of the most corrupt political systems in the history of mankind and the exact opposite to what G-d prescribes and says in the Torah. For instance, the Torah says the leader has to be a perfect person, not a handsome movie star, or a multibillionaire. One of the greatest Jews, Moses, raised and groomed as the adopted Pharaoh’s grandson, was a shepherd who stuttered, and was not rich. On contemporary Israeli TV he would never have been able to make it and certainly he would not have become the most legendary leader in history.
“The Torah does not say that the majority should rule the minority just because they are the majority. On the contrary, it states that the minority must rule the majority for the simple reason that if you take 500 people, a maximum of 50 will be wise, clever, smart, or genius. The rest will be average or below average.
“Therefore, by the rules of Democracy, the ignorant would dictate the experts how to run the military, the economy, politics, and the justice system. In other words, the ignorant who are the majority and maybe are unable to read or write their name, would be in a position to decide for the people who have education, experience, and true leadership skills. That doesn’t make sense.
“In the vast majority of countries, the masses are not educated. For instance, if the Arabs were run by their ignorant majority, instead of the educated minority, we would be in an even more dire situation.
“Anyone with a clear mind can see that Democracy is a self-defeating, suicidal, and corrosive system of governance.”
And, About the Current Situation in Israel?
“Abu Mazen and his people, regardless of their opinion about Israel, concluded that they have to reach some kind of political agreement to end this conflict.
“Hamas, their supporters, and the people who voted for them have decided to fight this war against Israel. They do not want a solution because their leitmotif is to annihilate all Jews and Israel.
“While it may have been possible to make peace with Mazen and his partisans, Hamas’s intentions will never change and therefore any political solution will be doomed from the onset, making it impossible to conquer some peace at least for the next 10 to 20 years.
“That is why the problem must be solved in a war, because we must fight for our survival. There is no other solution.”
Your Opinion on Negotiating With Hamas?
“It is impossible trying to do civilized politics with Hamas, which is a terrorist organization.
“The conflict is based on their religion, which orders them to annihilate Jews and destroy Israel. Killing Jews is urgent for them because Israel is right in their midst.
“They are also holding slaughtering orgies of Christians, and as history repeats, the world is emphatically demonstrating their deafening silence.
“Muslims who do not obey the strict rules of sharia, or are from a different denomination, are also victims of serial butchering massacres at the hands of their savages.
“The barbarians do not care about life and they are proud to die, they don’t mind if tens of thousands of their people die. In average, they give birth to so many children that they show total indifference to how they live, who dies and how many die.
“The Koran tells them to destroy all Jews and that’s their agenda. How can you make any agreement with people who have this kind of agenda?
“There is, obviously, no other solution than be strong and disregard the complaints of the world, their politics, and their hypocrisy.
“No matter who would have to deal with this kind of threat – the United States, Germany, France, the United Kingdom, Russia, or any other country – it is sure that their response to it would be much more crushing than Israel’s.
“Remember what King Hussein did in Jordan during Black September in 1970, when the Palestinians tried to demonstrate against him? He killed them all in one single day and nobody heard a single complaint.
“In principle, in order to to minimize risks, an attack should be done from the air. A massive military action should solve the problem. In the Middle East, all else is a waste of time.
“If someone is coming to kill you, you must kill that person first.
“In a situation like the current one in Israel, where the government sends troops to face such a deadly enemy, the Torah explains that one is not allowed to risk Israeli soldiers to save the enemies who are seeking to destroy us.
“The Israeli military target the Hamas terrorists and if these decide to use their own women and children as shield to protect themselves, ethically speaking, they are solely and directly responsible for the death of their human shields. Not Israel.”
As part of the ethics of self-defense as appears in the Torah, Mizrachi explains further:
“Should a thief enter your home to steal and should he aim at you, at first, you should try not to kill him. Nonetheless, if you realize that he still could kill you, you must aim to neutralize him in an act of self-defense. However, once the thief is on the way out with the bounty, one cannot shoot him on the back, given that there is no longer a life-threatening risk.
“This is a rule of absolute self-defense, naturally also applicable in the case that a Jew wants to kill another Jew.
“When it comes to a Hamas terrorist, after unsuccessfully trying to kill you, and he is on his way out of the tunnel, at any rate, one has to shoot him because one knows he will return to finish the job and he will continue attacking others.
“Their agenda is to destroy the Jews and to destroy Israel. So there is only one solution.”
Is There Any Way to Make the Israeli Government do What Needs to be Done?
“Since it is a Democracy, there is not much to do until next elections. If people made the wrong choice, they are going to suffer the consequences.
“Given that Netanyahu is morally challenged, he always gives in to pressure from the left and from President Barack Obama. A phone call would suffice and he would immediately forget the sacrifice of almost 70 soldiers who were murdered by Hamas.
“Obama, Germany, France or the rest of the world are Netanyahu’s concern. If he would care about the Jewish people, the job would have already been done, but he is still ‘negotiating.’
“In a different country, the army would take over and place the prime minister under house arrest for ‘being a risk to the people,’ so the army would continue the job with or without him.
“The only thing that can be done is if half a million people put tremendous pressure on him and rally from morning to night, and tell Netanyahu ‘Finish the job. If not, your political life is finished,’ until he gets it.
“Netanyahu is no Itzhak Shamir [the former prime minister], who would have already finished the job, regardless of what the world says or thinks.
“If Shamir was the prime minister, Hamas would be history now. The problem is the poll-addicted politically correct leaders.”
Mizrachi illustrates with great clarity the ethical path that Israel should follow in the war against Hamas according to the over-three-millennia-old Judaism. The Torah and its uplifting teachings stand tall when compared to the Koran. This one, on the contrary, sends their followers to annihilate the dhimmis or non-Muslims, Jews and Christians alike, including Muslims who choose not to follow Sharia to the letter. Therein lies the insurmountable and abysmal differences between Judaism and Islam, civilization versus barbarism.
Eliana Benador: strategist consultant, adviser, opinion writer, and speaker, was founder of Benador Associates and is head of Benador International, based in Geneva, Switzerland. Her website is www.elianabenador.com. You may follow her on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook.
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I don't know I'd have to go back and look.
Btw, he's becoming more and more exactly what I said. Wouldn't it be the greatest blessing if Rabbi Mizrachi became the religious head of JTF?
Chaim ben Pesach is religious. You meant rabbinical?
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Chaim ben Pesach is religious. You meant rabbinical?
I'm assuming you're religious too. I usually give stupid questions to stupid answers, but you insulted me once, so I'm not going to ever waste my time to try to make you laugh.
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Welcome Rachel-613...
I hope you will find JTF to your liking. There are many great talks by Rabbi Kahane on Youtube (which I suppose you may have already searched)...
I just posted this, but not sure if it went through......I was actually talking about his criticism of Tanya (but I still love his lectures!!)
Welcome Rachel-613...
I hope you will find JTF to your liking. There are many great talks by Rabbi Kahane on Youtube (which I suppose you may have already searched)...
B"H
Thank you!!
Plus, for the record, (or to set it straight!), I most definitely believe in reincarnation. I love Rabbi Mizrachi's lectures (as well as Rabbi Kahane's, and whatever else Torah-based lectures I can get my 'ears' on!) also, listen to them for around 8 hrs a day. I just have a problem with his "problem" with Chassidic Jews who study Tanya - it's the only path I've known since becoming BT - heck, there isn't much else on the internet in China except Chabad!! (not my fault we need more kiruv!).
Please, may everyone be kind to us BT's on here - we ask dumb questions sometimes. We're all searching for answers during these dark days, and the vehemently anti-semitic press isn't helping, especially JPost and its "talkback" where trolls have free rein to defame everything about Judaism, as well as make death threats against Jews constantly.
Toda Rabah, from a baby BT.
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Rachel- don't sweat it (American expression) many of us here are Bal Teshuva's (or at least in the direction of becoming more and more).
I assume you can get books in China as well since you are able to view lectures and such. Anyway how do you know English in China? They teach it in schools over there? I see some Chinese (non-Jewish) immigrants and they can't hardly speak a few words in English.
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According to the article below the shavei organization has produced passover hagadot in Chinese.
They might be a source for additional Chinese translations of Torah related topics for Rachel-613
http://www.shavei.org/category/communities/kaifeng_jews/articles-kaifeng_jews/?lang=en
First ever community Seder to be held in Kaifeng
(http://www.shavei.org/shvwp/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Michael-with-Chinese-Jews.jpg)
Brian Blum
8/04/2014
Shavei Chairman Michael Freund with Aviona Hakarmi-Weinberg and Chinese Jews
Shavei Chairman Michael Freund with Nany Goldstein and Chinese Jews
The Jewish community in Kaifeng will be holding its first-ever community Seder this Passover. Nearly 100 members of this ancient Chinese Jewish community are expected to attend the Seder, which is being sponsored by Shavei Israel and will be conducted by 28-year-old Tzuri (Heng) Shi, one of the 7 young Chinese Jewish men whom Shavei Israel helped make aliyah and return to Judaism over the past several years. (See our past coverage here.)
Tzuri arrived in Kaifeng two weeks ago along with Shavei Israel Chairman Michael Freund; Shavei’s Educational Director Rabbi Eliyahu Birnbaum; and Rabbi Hanoch Avitzedek, Shavei Israel’s director for the Kaifeng Jewish community,. They were joined by Eran Barzilay, our Israel-based coordinator for outreach to Kaifeng, and Nany Goldstein, who is serving as Shavei Israel’s emissary in Kaifeng (we’ll have a profile of Nany in an upcoming issue of the Roots newsletter).
Perhaps of equal importance to the distinguished visitors was what was in Tzuri’s luggage: a wide range of items he’ll need to conduct the Seder, including kosher matzah from Israel; Kosher for Passover wine and cakes; traditional red horseradish and charoset (the sweet, dark-colored paste made of fruits and nuts eaten at the Seder to remember the “mortar” used by the Israelite slaves in their forced work); and enough copies of the Passover Haggadot (the traditional book that explains the order of the Seder) prepared by Shavei Israel in both Hebrew and Chinese, for use by the community.
Putting together the Kaifeng Seder and procuring (and shipping) all the required items has taken significant time and expense. Your generous contribution will ensure that this is just the beginning for the steadfast Jewish community along the Yellow River. If you’d like to help sponsor Kaifeng’s first ever community Seder, please visit our Support page and make a note that your donation is for the “Chinese Seder.”
“We are very proud and excited to organize this historic event,” said Shavei Israel Chairman Freund. “Kaifeng’s Jewish descendants are a link between China and the Jewish people, and it is very moving to see the remnants of this community returning to their Jewish roots as they prepare for Passover.”
We have pictures of Shavei Israel’s recent visit to China below.