JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on August 29, 2007, 08:13:11 PM
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Everybody,
It bugs me a lot that Lisa is taking crap from everybody for banning an obvious troll (Chakma) who shouldn't have allowed to remain a member after his first post to begin with. He insulted all of us, especially Christians, and his deliberate distortions of Torah and promotion of idolatry are a terrible sin in either faith. Lisa made the obvious choice based on a member who was flaming left and right and whose comical interpretations of Torah only served to make Jews look bad.
Chakma613 was, most likely, the banned Adam613, based upon his screenname and a single-minded hatred for Lisa. As some of you know, I suspected that Adam613 was a Muslim whose goal was to stir up lots of trouble and say horrible things in order to paint all Jews as misogynist savages. His woman-hating views were very sincere (if he was a Muslim), but he pretended to be Jewish so as to not be banned and deceive JTF members and whip up lots of turmoil.
Have you all forgotten that Chaim constantly warns us about taqqiyah? Have you all forgotten his admonitions that those who defame the Talmud or come up with ridiculous interpretations of it are usually Nazis? I think there's an excellent chance that this Chakma individual, whose insane interpretations of Torah/Talmud were condemned by the vast majority of the forum, was a Nazi whose goal it was to make Judaism look evil and anti-Christian. What distresses me is that nobody thought of this obvious explanation and treated him with kid gloves even if they disagreed with him. His goal was to make Judaism look like a rabbi-worshipping, Christian-hating, misogynistic cult. I don't know if he was a Muslim Nazi or a white one, but it's irrelevant. He had "imposter" written all over him.
In conclusion, I just want to close by saying Lisa is the most sensible and rational leader in JTF right now, and does more for our forum than just about anybody. I want everybody who loves Lisa to respond and let her know how awesome she is.
Chaimfan
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I appologise for question Lisa's decision.
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Thank you.
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I agree C.F.
Great post as allways .
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I really wanted to ban him last week, but held off so thanks Lisa for banning him already. He always made comical remarks pretending he was a learned Jew. He also insulted Chaim several times and insulted R' Kahane as well. I agree he was some sort of troll.
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I think he was a Nazi (of some sort), and quite likely Adam613.
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He always made comical remarks pretending he was a learned Jew. He also insulted Chaim several times and insulted R' Kahane as well. I agree he was some sort of troll.
Thanks for your support everyone. I'd like to think I'm pretty calm and fair, but tonight was the last straw.
Jdlforever, what did he say to insult Chaim and Rabbi Kahane? And where?
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Chakma was a great poster, he shouldnt have been baned. When I see his posts he writes intelligintly and brings Torah sources, why cant you allow him to stay?
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Tsvi, read through Chaimfan's polygamy thread, my thread on Rabbi Ovadia Yossef and the recent one on Torah and Christianity.
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Chakma was a great poster, he shouldnt have been baned. When I see his posts he writes intelligintly and brings Torah sources, why cant you allow him to stay?
He distorted and caricatured Torah. He was either very stupid or a Nazi.
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Chakma was a great poster, he shouldnt have been baned. When I see his posts he writes intelligintly and brings Torah sources, why cant you allow him to stay?
He distorted and caricatured Torah. He was either very stupid or a Nazi.
I'm being completely objective here - when did he distort Torah?
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When didn't he distort Torah? Look at his posts for G-d's sake.
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Chakma was not Adam.
Lisa did the right thing. He broke the rules of the forum and was warned many times. I don't want to hear another negative word towards Lisa on this matter.
All of our moderators are wonderful and volunteer their time to help JTF without anything in return. I am beyond words in my gratitude to them.
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Lisa is great in every sense of the word..
one of the best moderators anywhere on the net..
Resourceful, dynamic and sensible are words that i would describe Lisa because she really is a righteous person
G-d bless you Lisa
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Thank you for the kind words, Raise Your Fist. And I'm glad you decided to stay.
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Yes Lisa he's an obvious jerk he wanted me to link to him on myspace so i did when he was banned he diconnected probably a fagel
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Chakma was a great poster, he shouldnt have been baned. When I see his posts he writes intelligintly and brings Torah sources, why cant you allow him to stay?
He distorted and caricatured Torah. He was either very stupid or a Nazi.
no offense how would you know? not to be rude but you arent even Jewish (and not Religious), how would you have a clue about Torah and Judaism.
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Lisa can please specify which specific post he has made to offend you? I really dont think you were fair, and C.F. why do you attack anyone who you dont agree with and automatically accuse them of not being Jewish and being a nazi or a muslim? you did the same with me at a point. I really think you should calm down and think about the proper things to write, if not for others at least for yourself.
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Tzvi, I am pasting here two of his offensive posts. But please note, this does not include his posts yesterday where he tried starting a fight between the Jews and Christians on the Torah and Christianity thread
Chakma responding to my post on the polygamy thread, and saying I am not entitled to an opinion:
I'm sorry, but while these poofs make sense to you, we do not learn out new ideas from pasukim(verses), it is not part of our biblical exegesis. We believe that the entire Torah, even what the commentators say, was all given by G-d to the Jews at sinai, therefore, we do not add our own "chidushim" or new ideas. If there's something in the meforshim(commentators) or in the Talmud, then you may of course bring it up to assert your point, however drawing your OWN conclusions based on the language of an ENGLISH translation of Torah is very dangerous, incorrect, and not in sync with the kosher way of learning torah. Even the greatest rabbis do not learn new things out from verses that are not stated in one way or another by a midrash, gemara, mishnah, braita, etc..
Chakma613 on the Rabbi Ovadia Yossef thread responding to Jeffguys suggestion that he show me more respect. First is Jeffguy's comment:
Please, let's be respectful to Lisa. She is a global moderator and she is Jewish.
While I happen to agree with most of the things you say (for example, I think that criticizing Rabbi Ovadia Yossef is dangerous and will turn a lot of people off to our movement), please handle debates in a respectful manner. I happen to believe in reincarnation but I do not hold malice towards her because she has a disagreement.
We have to have unity if we are going to become an effective mass movement. This type of debate can be very good.
Then here's Chakma's response to Jeffguy's request:
I respect those who respect the sages, and gedolim, I see no reason to have respect for a person promoting this fringe nonsense about R'ovadia's wrongfulness. Anyway, the type of reincarnation that Jews hold to be true has little to do with the actual person coming back, but rather, as whatis known as a gilgul shavua. I do not hold malice as you say because Lisa and I disagree, it is the way in which she presents her opinions as facts that bothers me, she gives me the impression that it's her way or no way, and she seems to not want to listen to torah opinions(see the thread on polygamy when she said something to the effect that her sentiment was her opinion and not the torah's, i was greatly troubled by that)
Now let me ask you, Tzvi, if you or I were to go on a forum and say openly that we have no intention of showing the moderators any respect, what do you think would happen to us? Do you think the moderators would tolerate such behavior? We would rightfully be banned.
I am also told by Jdlforever that he has made comments criticizing Chaim and Rabbi Kahane.
But as I told Kahaneloyalist in a private message, I am fair. If Chakma613 sincerely wants to come back and be a helpful person to this movement, let him send an email to [email protected] apologizing to me and Chaim and Rabbi Kahane, and also promising that he won't say things to cause friction between the Jews and Christians.
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Lisa you have to understand that it hurts people (including me) reading negative and insulting things against our Rabbis. What Rav Ovadia Yosef has written and said is a lot of times greatly taken out of place and many times misunderstood by people who dont know enough Torah. About the people who have died (HYD) being gilgulim is a well known spoken thing of. The job of Rabbis is to teach and warn the public about these things in order to get us to do Tishuva. Also the media distortes a lot of things and its hard to tell what was really said, which context was it in, etc.
im sorry but if he disagrees with you and has a valid Torah opinion why isnt he allowed to state it?
"Now let me ask you, Tzvi, if you or I were to go on a forum and say openly that we have no intention of showing the moderators any respect, what do you think would happen to us? Do you think the moderators would tolerate such behavior? We would rightfully be banned."
Did he curse at you? He just said that he wouldnt have respect for someone who would wrongfully curse a Rabbi.
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Tsvi, most people here do not consider Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, "their" rabbi. Therefore, they will not always agree with his statements or his positions. And that's their prerogative. They are in no way whatsoever preventing you from following his teachings as you see fit. Furthermore, JTF is not a politically correct organization. In the past, Chaim nicknamed him Ovadia Kessef, and called him other not so nice names as well.
So frankly, I fail to see how expressing my disagreement with someone who blames the victims (in this case Israeli soldiers and the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis) for their own deaths could be remotely construed as an insult. It was my own opinion -- nothing more and nothing less. Now are you also going to say that people here who share Chaim's views on this matter are not entitled to their opinions? If so, then I don't think your problem is with me, but with Chaim.
And finally, I have never EVER cursed your rabbi. So don't even think to use that as an excuse to defend Chakma from saying he will never show me respect.
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So frankly, I fail to see how expressing my disagreement with someone who blames the victims (in this case Israeli soldiers and the 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis) for their own deaths could be remotely construed as an insult. It was my own opinion -- nothing more and nothing less. Now are you also going to say that people here who share Chaim's views on this matter are not entitled to their opinions? If so, then I don't think your problem is with me, but with Chaim.
First of all it was an article of what he said and not something directly, the evil media allways takes these statements out of context. And yes it was an insult towards the Rabbi by the words and tone you used in making the thread, it was not a constructive thread, but only made to bash the Rabbi.
As far as him saying that he will not respect you, - he only said that he wont, he didnt curse at you directly, and anyway just becuase you got a little power doesant mean you have to abuse it by banning a user who had a disagreement and argument with you. I think that someone not involved should judge it- for Example Jimmy- let him see the thread and do whats needed- someone (anyone) who is in an argument cant be objective.
He was a great poster who has brought a lot of Torah and proper understanding in this form, if you ban him then you are sinning and cousing others to sin.
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Tzvi, it is really disturbing me that you are taking so very much time and energy to defend a troll who caricatured Jewish beliefs and likely was not even Jewish. Chaim praises you frequently on Ask JTF, and even DownwithIslam and I backed off of you and have been giving you a chance for weeks.
Was this in vain?
Lisa is sinning by disagreeing with his Torah and banning him? Are you freaking serious? ::)
Are you in the same camp as Dominater96? You have been making exactly the same kinds of arguments he has in your last few posts here.
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Tzvi, it is really disturbing me that you are taking so very much time and energy to defend a troll who caricatured Jewish beliefs likely was not even Jewish. Chaim praises you frequently on Ask JTF, and even DownwithIslam and I backed off of you and have been giving you a chance for weeks.
Was this in vain?
Are you in the same camp as Dominater96?
he is a great guy, believe me. what does caricatured mean? I think you mean distort? whateva, I havent seen any post of his that said hes against Judaism. He is Jewish, who wants to spread Judaism to Jews. I see how he was hurt from seeing a Rabbi be degraded, unfortunatly it is wayy to common. Can their be an agreement here of please lets not have debates about Rabbis. even if someone is 95% right and another 5 % is a distortion, the fact that a Torah scolar is insulted is a very grave sin, and to remain silent when reading it is also a very great sin. Lets just completly not comment on what the Rabbis do.
(its also brought in the Torah Of Rabbi Nachman of what Tzaddikim do sometimes to making things look the opposite etc. also about the arguments of Tzaddikim, people like us who arent on the level of these Tzaddikim should not comment on any of this becuase we will for sure stumble.
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Like I said, you are saying the exact same things as Dominater. An infallible Torah Scholar has been defamed, yadda yadda yadda.
Lisa and I both worked very hard to avoid insulting Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. Our exact words were "gaffe", "mistake", "misjudgment", etc. I can assure you that Chaim would even say that HaRav Meir Kahane (zt"l) did gaffes and blunders at times.
You consider it to be sinning to say that Ovadia Yosef has made "mistakes"? Please. ::)
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You consider it to be sinning to say that Ovadia Yosef has made "mistakes"? Please. ::)
no, but its not good for us to judge him and bring "proof" by the quotes from the media,etc. Their are allways problems here about this issue, lets just completly stop with this, I see nothing positive coming from this.
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But we had stopped already. You continued by coming back to this thread to bash Lisa and defend the troll.
I would like to drop this too but your accusations against Lisa are unfounded and unbiblical.
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I didnt know that you stopped, sorry. I didnt bash lisa I request that he be unbanned, we need more Jews who speak with Torah.
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Lisa you made a great decision. Even when I was more active a few days back, Chakma was spewing his drek. I wanted him banned before so I am happy to hear that it was done. Lisa is a great mod.
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Chaim and the other 99% of forum members will tell you he was distorting Torah. You are not going to get anywhere with this. Nobody else wants him unbanned.
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As I have said to Lisa in a PM most of what Chakma613 said was correct though he could have presented it in a better manner, but his statement that we dont create new ideas from our own interpretations of the Torah is 100% correct. One of the lynchpins of Judaism has always been the Mesorah, that each generation receives the Torah from the past generation, both Written and Oral it does not come from our own heart but has been passed down in an unbroken chain from Moshe Rabbenu himself.
And CF, again please do not attempt to say what is correct or incorrect in Judaism, beyond the fact that you dont know; it is not the place of non-Jews to comment upon Jewish law.
And Lisa I think you are a great moderator, but imagine how you feel when someone insults Rabbi Kahane zt'l hy'd (while I have never resorted to violence I came close once) before we speak negatively about Rabbanim whom we disagree with but many Jews follow.
Let us all remember Chakma is a Baal Teshuva, whom the Gemara Sanhedrin says is more righteous than someone who was daati from birth because he had to go against everything he had been taught to embrace the path of Torah. The fact that he loves and defends those who showed him the Derech is no vice even if we disagree with specific points of his emunah.
Chaim and the other 99% of forum members will tell you he was distorting Torah. You are not going to get anywhere with this. Nobody else wants him unbanned.
I doubt that; Chaim might disagree with him but I saw not one distortion and Chaim is extremely honest, he follows a different Gadol but he will admit Chakma613's opinion is legitimate
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CF, again please do not attempt to say what is correct or incorrect in Judaism, beyond the fact that you dont know; it is not the place of non-Jews to comment upon Jewish law.
Show me where in the Tanach or Talmud it says this. I want some actual evidence. After all, people have argued before that the Christian Bible teaches that Jews are to be killed and that blacks are destined to forever be slaves.
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As I have said to Lisa in a PM most of what Chakma613 said was correct though he could have presented it in a better manner, but his statement that we dont create new ideas from our own interpretations of the Torah is 100% correct. One of the lynchpins of Judaism has always been the Mesorah, that each generation receives the Torah from the past generation, both Written and Oral it does not come from our own heart but has been passed down in an unbroken chain from Moshe Rabbenu himself.
Kahaneloyalist, you are usually correct but what you just wrote is absolutely wrong in saying that we can't create new ideas in the Torah and shows that you do not understand the Oral Law as your friend Chachma did not understand it. The Oral law consists of both the Massorah and new interpretations that the Rabbis made up based on the previous Massorah, based on completely new cases that arise and based on their own deruvation. The Oral Law did not end with the Talmud my friend, whenever me or you uncover new interpretations and idea in the Torah, we are expanding the Oral Law. All the Rabbis made their own interpretations of the Torah based on the Massorah but they were still their unique ideas that were not passed down previously. I have proof for this if you desire.
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CF, again please do not attempt to say what is correct or incorrect in Judaism, beyond the fact that you dont know; it is not the place of non-Jews to comment upon Jewish law.
Show me where in the Tanach or Talmud it says this. I want some actual evidence. After all, people have argued before that the Christian Bible teaches that Jews are to be killed and that blacks are destined to forever be slaves.
Its straight out of Gemara Sanhedrin that non-Jews are not to pass judgement on specific points of Jewish law. They may not sit on Jewish courts or have any say in the appointment of members of the Sanhedrin.
On the other hand Goyim may comment on matters of Derech Eretz, if a Jew steals, or murders etc. (Chas V'shalom)
As I have said to Lisa in a PM most of what Chakma613 said was correct though he could have presented it in a better manner, but his statement that we dont create new ideas from our own interpretations of the Torah is 100% correct. One of the lynchpins of Judaism has always been the Mesorah, that each generation receives the Torah from the past generation, both Written and Oral it does not come from our own heart but has been passed down in an unbroken chain from Moshe Rabbenu himself.
Kahaneloyalist, you are usually correct but what you just wrote is absolutely wrong in saying that we can't create new ideas in the Torah and shows that you do not understand the Oral Law as your friend Chachma did not understand it. The Oral law consists of both the Massorah and new interpretations that the Rabbis made up based on the previous Massorah, based on completely new cases that arise and based on their own deruvation. The Oral Law did not end with the Talmud my friend, whenever me or you uncover new interpretations and idea in the Torah, we are expanding the Oral Law. All the Rabbis made their own interpretations of the Torah based on the Massorah but they were still their unique ideas that were not passed down previously. I have proof for this if you desire.
That is correct, no one is disputing that, but the ideas even if they were to a certain degree new had a inspiration in the Mesorah I am saying that entirely new ideas without any source are nonsensical and are not compatible with Torah even if they are make sense in our own hearts.
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I'm not sure of this relevance. How am I sitting on a rabbinical court?
Because I believe Chakma and Dominater96 distort Jewish law means I am sinning?
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Completely new ideas are acceptable as long as they do not contradict the Massorah. What Lisa wrote fits into this category and it was wrong for Chachma to be very disgusting and insult Lisa's brilliant deruvation.
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JDL4ever, is it wrong for Gentiles to opine when they think someone is distorting or abusing Torah?
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JDL4ever, is it wrong for Gentiles to opine when they think someone is distorting or abusing Torah?
Well, I don't think I'm qualified to answer this so I'll just say my opinion. I think that if a Gentile consults with a Righteous Jew like Chaim who understands the Torah and the Jewish Tradition (since Gentiles don't study the Talmud and the commentaries since it is not necessary for them) and he says that that person is abusing the Torah, then you can mock what that person says. Personally insulting someone Orthodox I don't agree with since R' Kahane did not do this. A reform or conservative Jew or an obvious traitor can be cursed out by a Gentile I think without consulting with anyone since it is obvious they are distorting the Torah.
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Is there a version of Talmud out there, Jerusalem or Babylonian, that is tailored to those not familiar with it and written in modern English?
I really would like to get a basic familiarity with it.
Chaimfan
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There is a good English version of the Babylonian Talmud in like 71 volumes but I think it is still too hard for someone not Jewish to understand and have the patience to read just one volume since it is very intellectually demanding. Also why would you want to study the Talmud if you aren't Jewish, it has nothing to do with you.
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Is there a version of Talmud out there, Jerusalem or Babylonian, that is tailored to those not familiar with it and written in modern English?
I really would like to get a basic familiarity with it.
Chaimfan
You really need a Rabbi to study Talmud with. Imagine Einstein X 10 directed totally at the Bible. These guys are just super deep and AMAZING.
You can probably find a pretty good book at ArtScroll.com or Feldheim.com that would discuss Pirkei Avot (Ethics of Our Fathers). I've heard that some law schools teach parts from Gamarra.
I don't want to sound arrogant or pompous and tell you that you can't understand it because you aren't Jewish. There are many brilliant Gentiles who are amazing and have beautiful souls. I don't want to sound cruel or cold. I will say that you really shouldn't study it without a Rabbi to help point out parts that are difficult to understand (and once you understand... the lights come on and you go AAAHHH!).
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CF, non-Jews are not supposed to study Torah She Baal Peh, which includes the Talmud, that is an avera.
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CF, non-Jews are not supposed to study Torah She Baal Peh, which includes the Talmud, that is an avera.
Thank you, kahaneloyalist. I don't want to give wrong information. I have a lot of compassion for gentiles that want to know more for righteous reasons. That really touches me.
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We are not aloud to bad mouth Ovadia Yosef because he is a torah scholar....
I don't like a lot of the things he says but we are not aloud to speak lashon hora about a man who embraces the jewish faith... no matter what his opinions are about the land of israel
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Is there a simple paraphrased version of Talmud that gentiles can read so that they don't accidently cause a Jew to sin by giving a Jewish house guest non-kosher food(for example)?
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CF, non-Jews are not supposed to study Torah She Baal Peh, which includes the Talmud, that is an avera.
Thank you, kahaneloyalist. I don't want to give wrong information. I have a lot of compassion for gentiles that want to know more for righteous reasons. That really touches me.
Jeffguy you are truly a righteous Jew, of course we can teach the non-Jews some things, those things that relate to faith, and the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, but their are limits to what they may be taught. Of course a non-Jew who wishes to become Jewish is to be taught everything.
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also it partly has to do with the fact that we Jews have to study Torah for the purpose of doing, not just for some intellectual reason and expecially not for studying in order to argue against the Tzaddikim.
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CF, non-Jews are not supposed to study Torah She Baal Peh, which includes the Talmud, that is an avera.
Its also not advisable since a non-Jew who does so places himself in danger. (by the hand of heaven).
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I'm not sure of this relevance. How am I sitting on a rabbinical court?
Because I believe Chakma and Dominater96 distort Jewish law means I am sinning?
What ever happened to Dominater anyway?
Tzvi, do you have any idea?
no. Is he allowed to be on the forum?
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not that im calling for the banning of people, but why are people like C.F. and DWI and all the other disrespectuful people allowed to stay while they are not?
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Dominater is free to post here if he wants to. He has not been banned as far as I know.
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I would like to learn some Talmud because I do not want to be ignorant at all times of Jewish law and to know what I am talking about if some poster comes on and says something that seems outlandish. That was my only intent.