JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jsullivan on September 20, 2007, 08:37:36 AM
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Chaim Ben Pesach e-mailed the following message:
Shalom fellow JTFers,
I believe that we have a moral obligation to prevent posting and registration on the JTF Forum on Shabbat (the Sabbath). I ask our administrators to take the necessary steps to implement this policy.
It is true that most of our forum members are righteous Gentiles, who do not have to observe Shabbat. If all of our forum members were Gentile, obviously there would be no problem with keeping the forum open on Shabbat.
But about 40% of our forum members are Jewish, and some of these Jewish members are not yet Shomrei Shabbat (Sabbath observant). Which means that if the forum is open, some of these Jewish members will post on Shabbat, chas veshalom (G-d forbid).
I know that some of our Jewish members will be on the internet on Shabbat whether the JTF Forum is open or not. We cannot control what people do in their personal lives. However, we as a movement cannot encourage or enable violating Shabbat. We cannot in effect legitimize Jews violating Shabbat by allowing our forum to become a place where this activity occurs. Whatever Jews do in their personal lives, they must at least know that JTF is a Torah-true movement that does everything possible to encourage Jews to observe Shabbat and to observe all of the mitzvot (commandments) of the Torah.
It is very painful for me to think that JTF encourages or enables even one Jew to violate Shabbat or any other mitzvah, chas vechalilah (G-d forbid). If even one Jew is encouraged or enabled to do this, then that is reason enough to close the forum on Shabbat.
As for our righteous Gentile members, I hope you will understand that when Jews observe Shabbat and the other mitzvot, is not only good for the Jewish people, it is good for the whole world. The whole world is a better place when Jews do what HaShem (G-d) has commanded them to do. By being part of a movement that encourages Jews to follow G-d's commandments, our wonderful Gentile members will also receive great blessings and merit from the Creator of the Universe.
שנה טובה וגמר חתימה טובה, ושנראה כולנו ביאת גואל צדק במהרה בימינו ובניין בית המקדש בכל תהילתו אכי''ר
Translation: A good New Year and a good final inscription [in the book of life], and we should all see the arrival of the just redeemer [the Messiah] quickly in our days and the building of the Holy Temple with all of its glory, this should be His will, amen.
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:)
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What about time zones...is not the sabbath variant depending on what location a person is living...
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Good point
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I think it will be NY eastern time zone.
Tzvi-good call on bringing it to the attention that this forum should be closed on shabbat...even though i disagreed with my arm and leg about it...but it's the right thing to do for this movement.
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Fine by me . ;)
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I had this question with my other forum, and the Rabbi said go with the time zone where you are.
In Chaim's case that's the New York time zone. It is true that others will be able to post in other time zone's on Shabbat, but this is the extent of our obligation under Jewish law.
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I agree 100 percent.
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Since you mentioned te Torah aspect,it seems logical../bump
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What about time zones...is not the sabbath variant depending on what location a person is living...
I think it's possible on forums to have a feature where individual users are able to select their time zone in a user settings type option.
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Now that we are closing the forum for Shabbat, what will be the policy for major Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Succot and Passover? Will we be closing it for those holidays as well?
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The Hebrew forum is not closed during the holidays because it is too complicated and confusing.
For example, next week we have two days of Succot coming up from Wednesday night to Friday night. That leads directly into the Sabbath. And so we have three days in a row when Jews are not supposed to be on computers. But if we close down the forum for three days with the written message about the Sabbath, it's confusing because it will say "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night.
So the decision was made not to close the Hebrew forum when you have three days in a row like that, and we should do the same. Even on Shabbat, the Hebrew forum is not closed when a holiday immediately precedes the Sabbath. Because we can't have admins making changes on Friday night when it's a holiday. The admins making the changes would be violating the holiday, G-d forbid. And just leaving a confusing message for three days in a row saying both "Shabbat Shalom" and "Chag Sameach" is also not a good idea.
Tomorrow night is both Shabbat and Yom Kippur and so we can close the forum just before Friday night. But for the two weeks after that, we will have to leave the forum open in order to avoid confusion and chaos. Once the holidays are over, we can implement this new policy every Shabbat.
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Instead of closing the forum, I would place a warning page reminding that it is Shabbat and how important that is for a Jew to observe it and if they decide to still go to the forum or if they are Gentile, then they would click on a link to proceed and would be redirected to the forum.
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But then it would be letting a Jew proceed even after they are warned.
No, it would be on his conscience, if he wants to proceed. You would have done your duty.
I would actually add a timetable of Shabbat in all timezones.
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But then it would be letting a Jew proceed even after they are warned.
No, it would be on his conscience, if he wants to proceed. You would have done your duty.
I would actually add a timetable of Shabbat in all timezones.
1- the discussion is over, it has been decided by Chaim that the forum will be closed on Shabbah.
2- Not a bad idea. (maybe like an announcement for when to expect its closing).
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The Hebrew forum is not closed during the holidays because it is too complicated and confusing.
For example, next week we have two days of Shavuot coming up from Wednesday night to Friday night. That leads directly into the Sabbath. And so we have three days in a row when Jews are not supposed to be on computers. But if we close down the forum for three days with the written message about the Sabbath, it's confusing because it will say "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night.
So the decision was made not to close the Hebrew forum when you have three days in a row like that, and we should do the same. Even on Shabbat, the Hebrew forum is not closed when a holiday immediately precedes the Sabbath. Because we can't have admins making changes on Friday night when it's a holiday. The admins making the changes would be violating the holiday, G-d forbid. And just leaving a confusing message for three days in a row saying both "Shabbat Shalom" and "Chag Sameach" is also not a good idea.
Tomorrow night is both Shabbat and Yom Kippur and so we can close the forum just before Friday night. But for the two weeks after that, we will have to leave the forum open in order to avoid confusion and chaos. Once the holidays are over, we can implement this new policy every Shabbat.
Jimmy, is it really only because of a matter of words? Just say "Shalom, this forum is currently closed because of the Holy Shabbat or current Yom Tov. We will reopen when it finishes."
Your suggestion makes sense if it can be phrased properly. It IS a matter of words. Saying "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night would create confusion. It could cause people to think we're crazy or out of touch with reality. We want to bring people into our movement to bring them closer to Torah Judaism, not turn them away. If we can phrase things properly, that would solve the problem.
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The Hebrew forum is not closed during the holidays because it is too complicated and confusing.
For example, next week we have two days of Shavuot coming up from Wednesday night to Friday night. That leads directly into the Sabbath. And so we have three days in a row when Jews are not supposed to be on computers. But if we close down the forum for three days with the written message about the Sabbath, it's confusing because it will say "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night.
So the decision was made not to close the Hebrew forum when you have three days in a row like that, and we should do the same. Even on Shabbat, the Hebrew forum is not closed when a holiday immediately precedes the Sabbath. Because we can't have admins making changes on Friday night when it's a holiday. The admins making the changes would be violating the holiday, G-d forbid. And just leaving a confusing message for three days in a row saying both "Shabbat Shalom" and "Chag Sameach" is also not a good idea.
Tomorrow night is both Shabbat and Yom Kippur and so we can close the forum just before Friday night. But for the two weeks after that, we will have to leave the forum open in order to avoid confusion and chaos. Once the holidays are over, we can implement this new policy every Shabbat.
Jimmy, is it really only because of a matter of words? Just say "Shalom, this forum is currently closed because of the Holy Shabbat or current Yom Tov. We will reopen when it finishes."
Your suggestion makes sense if it can be phrased properly. It IS a matter of words. Saying "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night would create confusion. It could cause people to think we're crazy or out of touch with reality. We want to bring people into our movement to bring them closer to Torah Judaism, not turn them away. If we can phrase things properly, that would solve the problem.
so politically correct...how about "shabbat shalom and/or chag sameach" ? :laugh:
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It seems fair and I will respect that. No problem.
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thanks jimmy, tell Chaim this will be taken care of... ;)
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The Hebrew forum is not closed during the holidays because it is too complicated and confusing.
For example, next week we have two days of Shavuot coming up from Wednesday night to Friday night. That leads directly into the Sabbath. And so we have three days in a row when Jews are not supposed to be on computers. But if we close down the forum for three days with the written message about the Sabbath, it's confusing because it will say "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night.
So the decision was made not to close the Hebrew forum when you have three days in a row like that, and we should do the same. Even on Shabbat, the Hebrew forum is not closed when a holiday immediately precedes the Sabbath. Because we can't have admins making changes on Friday night when it's a holiday. The admins making the changes would be violating the holiday, G-d forbid. And just leaving a confusing message for three days in a row saying both "Shabbat Shalom" and "Chag Sameach" is also not a good idea.
Tomorrow night is both Shabbat and Yom Kippur and so we can close the forum just before Friday night. But for the two weeks after that, we will have to leave the forum open in order to avoid confusion and chaos. Once the holidays are over, we can implement this new policy every Shabbat.
Jimmy, is it really only because of a matter of words? Just say "Shalom, this forum is currently closed because of the Holy Shabbat or current Yom Tov. We will reopen when it finishes."
Your suggestion makes sense if it can be phrased properly. It IS a matter of words. Saying "Shabbat Shalom" on Wednesday night would create confusion. It could cause people to think we're crazy or out of touch with reality. We want to bring people into our movement to bring them closer to Torah Judaism, not turn them away. If we can phrase things properly, that would solve the problem.
so politically correct...how about "shabbat shalom and/or chag sameach" ? :laugh:
the phrasing of the message can be changed by any admin at any time, it's very easy to do.
you can change it according to the day in question weather it's shabbat or yom tove.
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Dear Posters,
Just because the site will be closed down for our Jewish brothers and sisters, that doesn't mean us goys should be less vigilant, It is our duty to and a obligation to be on guard when our brothers and sisters are doing their religious duties. As a matter of fact, we should be more vigilant in our oberservations of who is doing our brothers and sisters harm. I would expect no less from our Jewish brothers and sisters when Christians have their Holidays. What does Chiam think of my anaylsis.
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Dear Posters,
Just because the site will be closed down for our Jewish brothers and sisters, that doesn't mean us goys should be less vigilant, It is our duty to and a obligation to be on guard when our brothers and sisters are doing their religious duties. As a matter of fact, we should be more vigilant in our oberservations of who is doing our brothers and sisters harm. I would expect no less from our Jewish brothers and sisters when Christians have their Holidays. What does Chiam think of my anaylsis.
That woudbe nice; but christians are no forbiden for posting on internet on their Holydays; unless it's sinfull site and JTF is not; or you post for financial profit an/or material future gain.
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I respect the decision too close the Forum. Don't like it , but I respect it. ;) I missed the forum when it was closed.
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What timezone will you be following? American Eastern timezone is 6 hours behind Israel and 14 hours behind Australia, how can you ensure Jews from various countries will not log on when it is still Shabbat in their respective timezones? Conversely, what if Jews want to log onto the forum after their Shabbat yet be stuck for more than half a day waiting for Shabbat to end in the US?
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What timezone will you be following? American Eastern timezone is 6 hours behind Israel and 14 hours behind Australia, how can you ensure Jews from various countries will not log on when it is still Shabbat in their respective timezones? Conversely, what if Jews want to log onto the forum after their Shabbat yet be stuck for more than half a day waiting for Shabbat to end in the US?
The sever time must count which AET; it's for not helping them to sin; which is sin itself and not encouraging them to sin too; the staff have no authority an/or means to ensure they will keep sabath anyway.
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Congratulations, I find it a very good idea to close the forum on Shabat and Yom Tov. Although there are many members who are Gentiles, this forum deals mostly with Jewish issues. We, Gentiles are not bound ( and even forbidden to keep Shabat) but we also must abstain from doing any Melacha for the sake of the Jews, since Jews are forbidden to use a goy to work for them on Shabat. If we post an article on Shabat to be read by Jews after Mozaei Shabat, we sin anyway.
At first I had also forbidden to use the Letbelandic sites on Shabat, since it dealt mostly with Israel's rights. Now it is permitted b/c we have other causes to defend ( Nature, the unborn.....) and Gentiles can post on these issues. Anyway we never had a mean to block the access to the sites. If you have found the way, then, it's great!
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Its a great idea, I finally got to do my homework without constantly resisting the urges to read things on JTF. :) I hope everybody had a great Yom Kippur
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But then it would be letting a Jew proceed even after they are warned.
But this is the proper way to do it acorrding to Halacha, no ?
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It needs to be closed on Shabbat for Eastern Time because that is when the admin are not available to administer the site. It also needs to be closed during Israel time, because a Jew violating the Shabbat in Israel is a lot more serious than one violating it outside of the country.
I had previously suggested some downtime to encourage people to post on youtube instead. Perhaps we can have the site closed for both time zones and encourage people to use youtube instead when it is not currently Shabbat in their time zone.
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I respect this and all other decisions Chaim makes about the operation of this forum, and applaud him for feeling a conviction on his heart and making a change based on it.
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Sounds ok to this
Christian boy. :)
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Having given this some thought I disagree with it. How will we become a mass movement if on Saturday, a prime time for Gentiles to be online, Gentiles cannot access the forum?
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I respect this and all other decisions Chaim makes about the operation of this forum, and applaud him for feeling a conviction on his heart and making a change based on it.
I second to this; everybody not accepting this can erect its own pro Jewish forum.
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Having given this some thought I disagree with it. How will we become a mass movement if on Saturday, a prime time for Gentiles to be online, Gentiles cannot access the forum?
Its not the end of the world.
Its a greater acheivement to preserve this forums Jewish Qualities.
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Having given this some thought I disagree with it. How will we become a mass movement if on Saturday, a prime time for Gentiles to be online, Gentiles cannot access the forum?
Its not the end of the world.
Its a greater acheivement to preserve this forums Jewish Qualities.
With this attitude we will never be a mass movement. Take Gentiles into account!
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Having given this some thought I disagree with it. How will we become a mass movement if on Saturday, a prime time for Gentiles to be online, Gentiles cannot access the forum?
Its not the end of the world.
Its a greater acheivement to preserve this forums Jewish Qualities.
With this attitude we will never be a mass movement. Take Gentiles into account!
There is nothing stopping Gentiles from going onto other sites such as youtube to promote our message. In fact it is encouraged. Asking a Jewish site to stay open on Shabbat is like asking the Amish or the devout Christian owner of a store to stay open on Sunday. It's true that the stores lose business by closing their doors, but that is their moral backbone. The fact that the Amish close on Sunday does not prevent someone from going to the 24/7 supermarket instead.
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Instead of closing the forum, I would place a warning page reminding that it is Shabbat and how important that is for a Jew to observe it and if they decide to still go to the forum or if they are Gentile, then they would click on a link to proceed and would be redirected to the forum.
A Jew knows when it's the sabbath regardless of whether he/she observes it. A warning would make no difference.
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Instead of closing the forum, I would place a warning page reminding that it is Shabbat and how important that is for a Jew to observe it and if they decide to still go to the forum or if they are Gentile, then they would click on a link to proceed and would be redirected to the forum.
A Jew knows when it's the sabbath regardless of whether he/she observes it. A warning would make no difference.
- The warning that I am suggesting is not going to simply remind the Jews what day of week it is, but would stress on the holiness and importance of the commandment to keep Shabbat.
- The only Jews that will come to the forum on Shabbat will be the secular ones, and thus if you simply close the doors in front of them, you will achieve nothing. But if you try to teach them, and I believe that even secular Jews take JTF as a reliable and respectable movement, and thus will take it [JTF] as a mentor.
- Let's not forget of Gentiles. They are not supposed to keep Shabbat. Moreover they are a significant and important part of our movement and thus, in my opinion, should continue running the forum while the Jews cant.
- The forum, being an automated software, does not need seupervision or operation by a human, and thus can operate 24/7 on its own.
- Let's not forget of the notion of free will when we are talking about Jews. I think, a free will that is educated becomes wisdom, and free will that is simply rejected becomes a mindless power.
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For me JTF is a planet that keeps spinning even on Shabbat and not a store that you can close at any time.
For me JTF is an Army that is there to defend Israel, and a Jewish Army must operate even on Shabbat.
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Very, very bad idea to place a warning to jews saying that it is Shabat or Yom Tov and encouraging them to leave. Even if the Jew is persuaded of the Holiness of Shabat and chooses to leave the forum, he'll click EXIT, and that single click is already a violation!!!!!
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Very, very bad idea to place a warning to jews saying that it is Shabat or Yom Tov and encouraging them to leave. Even if the Jew is persuaded of the Holiness of Shabat and chooses to leave the forum, he'll click EXIT, and that single click is already a violation!!!!!
Single click????? The man would have turned the computer and visited a dozen of websites before he would come to JTF's website. Single click????? He would have violated Shabbat 55000 times before that single click that you are talking about.
And the reason is either that he doesnt care or doesnt understand the importance of Shabbat, and he needs to be educated and not shut the door before him.
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Its just one of those things! ;)
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Very, very bad idea to place a warning to jews saying that it is Shabat or Yom Tov and encouraging them to leave. Even if the Jew is persuaded of the Holiness of Shabat and chooses to leave the forum, he'll click EXIT, and that single click is already a violation!!!!!
Turning on computer on shabas or clicking on JTF links is already violaton on several Sahabat laws including prohibation of writing; starting afire etc... atleast for observant ortodox jews; nad Zwulun do have a point that Jews must be educated to observe the Shabat voluntary atleast oustide land of Israel.
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An idea I just posted in another thread:
An idea:
If possible, an option should be added to the "Account Related Settings" of the profile to allow users to check-off whether or not they want to be allowed to access the forum and to have the right to post on it during Shabbat. I don't know how easy/difficult it would be to add an option like this. Thus, those who don't want to feel temped to post on Shabbat will choose the option to not be able to access (thus also preventing them from posting) on Shabbat while other people will be allowed to access the forum and post.
Also, there would need to be an option (I'm not sure if there already is one) to select which time-zone you live in so then the forum would know what time Shabbat starts/ends for specific people (for those who would not want to be able to access the forum during Shabbat).
I think this potential idea would be fair to all.
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I would have thought that the need to be involved in JTF even for jews is so great (and could ultimately be a matter of life and death in the long run) even if this might mean breaking Shabbat to get the message across to voices around the world
I might be wrong so feel free to set me straight
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I would have thought that the need to be involved in JTF even for jews is so great (and could ultimately be a matter of life and death in the long run) even if this might mean breaking Shabbat to get the message across to voices around the world
I might be wrong so feel free to set me straight
You raise a good point and there is a such a concept of violating the Sabbat in order to defend Israel or definitely to save a life.
But I think the causal link between the activity and the life-saving would need to be a lot closer than the way that someone joining the forum and posting here would be related to saving a life down the road if Chaim becomes PM etc.
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Instead of closing the forum, I would place a warning page reminding that it is Shabbat and how important that is for a Jew to observe it and if they decide to still go to the forum or if they are Gentile, then they would click on a link to proceed and would be redirected to the forum.
A Jew knows when it's the sabbath regardless of whether he/she observes it. A warning would make no difference.
Yes, but Yom Tov is a different story. I'm not a religious Jew, but won't willfully violate Shabbat for JTF activity. I do occasionally forget when it is Yom Tov so if I get a warning I that will be of use. My only qualm about this is that people live in different time zones and it is difficult to determine when it is Shabbat for everyone.