Poll

Is it justified to have an abortion when raped?

Yes
17 (53.1%)
No
15 (46.9%)

Total Members Voted: 1

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Offline Ralph1

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Abortion when raped
« on: October 19, 2007, 03:48:03 AM »
I think it is.
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newman

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 03:50:37 AM »
I agree wiyh you.

No rape victim should be further traumatised over another 9 months carrying (and risking her life in child birth for) a rapist's bastard.
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Offline Ehud

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 03:59:08 AM »
It's justified.  I honestly don't think that any man has the right to tell a woman that she should be forced to keep a child that is the result of a rape because he has no idea what it would be like to get raped and then be forced to have the rapist's baby. 
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newman

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 04:01:30 AM »
Quote from: Ze'ev Jabotinsky on October 19, 2007, 03:59:08 AM
It's justified.  I honestly don't think that any man has the right to tell a woman that she should be forced to keep a child that is the result of a rape because he has no idea what it would be like to get raped and then be forced to have the rapist's baby. 

Every kick, cramp or movement would force her to re-live the ordeal. The health of the mother takes precedence over the unborne. That should include mental health too.
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raiseyourfist

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 05:50:27 AM »
I know Chaim will disagree with me here but what you have said Ralph makes total sense...

I believe in abortion in circumstances of that nature when the woman is in extreme pain and must be further hurt due to someone else's lack of morals...

SO Guiliani in my opinion is almost the perfect person running for president seeing as this is what he will push
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 08:10:41 AM »
According to Chaim and his interpretation of what the Rabbis said, it isn't permitted. He says that the fetus is still innocent even if it was, Gd forbid, from a savage nut.  However, I disagree with him on other reasons.

If it is a medical procedure to save the life of the mother, certainly mental health shoudl come into the picture.  Not sure where the Torah stands with mental problems that are due to trauma during a lifetime. 

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Kiwi

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 08:15:51 AM »
I voted NO.

I only believe in abortion when the mothers life is in danger.

Half that baby is hers, and why should a sins of the father be cursed apon the child.

As for the mental health of the mother, more damage can occur with the abortion. Its far belong anything else a woman must face.
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Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 08:19:54 AM »
I would let the child live.Why kill an innocent and pre judge that person.
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Offline Yisrael

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 09:18:04 AM »
This is a very delicate subject but I have to say no.

Either abortion is murder or it is permitted. Since it's murder, I don't care why the women wants to murder her kid, it doesn't matter, she isn't allowed to. What if the kid is 3 years old and she says he reminds her of the rape, can she kill him then too?

The only time you can kill the baby is if it causes a danger to the physical health of the mother, and she might die. Then you kill him.

I'm sure that many women are traumatized when pregnant; maybe they got a divorce, maybe they are bipolar, it doesn't matter, the kid is innocent and if you kill it you are a murderer.
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Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 09:20:16 AM »
yes ,sorry but no child is guilty of his dads sins.And yes I know of sins of the fathers.I don't mean that!
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kellymaureen

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 09:44:21 AM »
No, it may be traumatic, but 9 months out of your life, to ensure that little person, who is totally innocent, gets a chance at life isnt too much to ask.  If it would be too difficult to see that child everyday without being reminded, there are thousands of loving couples who would gladly give that baby a good home.
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Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 09:57:56 AM »
Exactly you can send the child to a better place ,why not give it a chance.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 12:25:05 PM »
If the law were that in rape that the fetus must go through full term (unless the mother's physical life were in danger), the right solution is to give the child up for adoption..

It's all together a difficult sad situation...What if I were married and this, Gd forbid happened to my wife?...what if to my unmarried or married daughter?  I'm sorry, I'm not a saint nor that self less to allow my wife or daughters or sisters or whomever close to me to allow that fetus to be born..I'm sorry, I can't accept it...rip my arms off if you have to...I can't allow it...no way...
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Offline Ralph1

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2007, 12:27:31 PM »
The woman has the absolute right to abortion. In fact, she has more right to an abortion than those whose lives are in danger because of a pregnancy. I can argue that the child isn't innocent because it has the genetics of a rapist. However, even if one wants to believe the child is innocent the mother is innocent as well and she shouldn't go through the pain of a pregnancy she had no choice in. If the abortion is murder then the rapist should be charged with murder for causing the rape victim to abort his child.
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Offline Kananga

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2007, 12:32:37 PM »
What if the woman is white and the rapist is black?
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kellymaureen

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2007, 12:35:52 PM »
The child is still innocent.
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Offline Yisrael

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2007, 12:36:38 PM »
The question is, Is Abortion Murder?

And the answer is YES.

There is no excuse for murder.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2007, 12:57:28 PM »
Quote from: Yisrael on October 19, 2007, 12:36:38 PM
The question is, Is Abortion Murder?

And the answer is YES.

There is no excuse for murder.

According to the Torah, not quite.

It is written:  When a pregnant woman is pushed down and it causes a miscarriage, a fine is paid.  However, if the pregnant woman dies, it is life for life.

Therefore, is the fetus equal to the mother's life... According to the Torah, no.  Therefore, is aborting an innocent fetus, but without harming the mother in anway equal to murder? No, but it depends on the situation.  If it is murder, then so is killing any cell in anyone's own body since in cloaning one can make an offspring from a skin cell...and then what about sperm and eggs...if un used, isn't that murder too? I mean, I'm building a fence here aren't I? 

My point isn't to recommend abortions. I don't recommend it at all.  I say that it shoudl be between the mother and the doctor for health reasons but with ethics in mind...and that's where the Rabbi, priest, or whomever gets into it.
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Offline Sarah

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 01:02:04 PM »
Isn't there a certain number of days before, the foetus actually has a heart, or has been "ensouled".

I believe that if the woman is in danger of her life then an abortion is ok but apart from that, not really. Unless it is done in the earliest stage possible.
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Offline Vito

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2007, 01:11:47 PM »
I really, really hate the idea of abortion.. but I think it should be permitted in the case of rape. What if the mother is not financially ready to have a child? Mentally ready? Of course there is always the choice of adoption..

I would be much more concerned about finding the rapists and throwing them off a very high cliff.
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Offline Wayne Jude

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2007, 01:13:11 PM »
What if a Christian raped a muslim should the muslim girl be forced to keep it? :-\
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kellymaureen

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2007, 01:17:01 PM »
No one should be forced to keep a baby, there are thousands of mentally, financially and emotionally stable couples who are waiting to adopt an infant.  I dont think I would be able to keep and look at the child, even though its not their fault, it would be too painful....but another couple could raise that child and give it everthing it needs, the mother only needs to give it life.
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Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2007, 01:24:17 PM »
I voted NO. Abortion can only be considered when pregnancy endangers the mother's life. A son of a rapist is innocent. The son shall not die for his fathers' sin, says the Torah. And please don't say that rapism is genetic, even if it were nobody is guilty untill he actually commits the sin by himself. If the child were guilty, then we should kill every person whose father is a rapist!!!!! Absurd!!!!!
According the Orthodoxy abortion can not be considered murder, but a crime against life, though. But for Noahides there is no distinction. Sfichut Damim includes all crimes against life. However a Goyah can also abort if her life is in danger.
Regarding the psak of the Torah about a pregnat woman there is a Karaite different interpretation. They say, if the hit woman gives birth before time and the child survives, then it is a fine, if the child dies, then life for life.
Hope it permitted to post a Karaite interpretation in this forum. After all, Christians are allowed to post althogh they are not considered to be Jewish.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 01:29:43 PM by Raulmarrio2000 »
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2007, 01:47:34 PM »
Quote from: Christianwhitenation.name on October 19, 2007, 01:13:11 PM
What if a Christian raped a muslim should the muslim girl be forced to keep it? :-\

Rape is evil...so that Christian as any person who would viciously rape someone (i'm not talkign about date rape) shoudl be put to death.
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Abortion when raped
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2007, 01:51:29 PM »
Quote from: Raulmarrio2000 on October 19, 2007, 01:24:17 PM
I voted NO. Abortion can only be considered when pregnancy endangers the mother's life. A son of a rapist is innocent. The son shall not die for his fathers' sin, says the Torah. And please don't say that rapism is genetic, even if it were nobody is guilty untill he actually commits the sin by himself. If the child were guilty, then we should kill every person whose father is a rapist!!!!! Absurd!!!!!
According the Orthodoxy abortion can not be considered murder, but a crime against life, though. But for Noahides there is no distinction. Sfichut Damim includes all crimes against life. However a Goyah can also abort if her life is in danger.
Regarding the psak of the Torah about a pregnat woman there is a Karaite different interpretation. They say, if the hit woman gives birth before time and the child survives, then it is a fine, if the child dies, then life for life.
Hope it permitted to post a Karaite interpretation in this forum. After all, Christians are allowed to post althogh they are not considered to be Jewish.

That's interesting, the Karaite interpretation.

I should add another comment from what I said before...If it were my wife, Gd forbid, but she decided to go to term for the child and then give it up for adoption, I would accept that..especially to keep the peace...and the bottom line is to keep the peace between me and my wife...for me to try to convince her that she woudl be comitting murder aborting a fetus as a result of a rape would destroy the peace of my home...I think the love of myself and my wife and the Gd willing ability to have more kids together if we stick together these tough times take more precendence over this bastard fetus...
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If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein
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