Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!

[muman613]

I find that post extremely difficult to read... Im sorry...

I am beginning to suspect that you are Rabbi Katz... Are you?

[muman613]

Here is a basic discussion of where we get the idea of a 6000 year timeline...

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-basics-of-judaism/the-messiah/?p=998

Basics of Judaism

The Messiah
The Messiah and 6000 years
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How do we know that the world will end in the year 6,000? There are many differing contexts of the coming of the Messiah has anyone sorted out the contexts so that we can gauge a clear view?

Here are some sources for the world lasting six thousand years:

Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin [97a]: “Rav Kattina said: ‘The world will exist for 6000 years and one (thousand) of destruction’ ... We have a teaching which is in agreement with Rav Kattina, as the seventh is the sabbatical year – one in seven years. Likewise the world will rest 1,000 in 7000 … ‘a thousand years in Your eyes are like yesterday which has passed …’ [Psalms 90:4].”

Talmud, Tractate Avodah Zarah [9a]: “The world will exist for six thousand years: two millennia of void (‘tohu’); Two millennia of Torah; and then two millennia of the age of Moshiach.”

Nachmanides, Commentary on the Torah (Genesis 2:3), quoting Kabbalistic sources: “Each of the Six Days of Creation corresponds to a 1,000 year period of future history.”

As for a clearer view of what it will be like when Moshiach comes, the basic answer is: a lot better than this.

From the Prophets, Talmud and Midrashim, we know what universal changes Moshiach will bring about. Among them: the whole world will return to G-d and His teachings; the entire Jewish People will be gathered back to the Land of Israel; the royal dynasty of King David will be restored; Jerusalem and the Third Temple will be rebuilt; the Temple service will be restored, along with the keeping of the Sabbatical Year (Shmitah) and the Jubilee Year (Yovel); the Sanhedrin, the religious supreme court of the Jewish people, will be reestablished.

No big deal, right?

In what order and in exactly what manner these events will occur, we do not know. G-d did not reveal the future that clearly to us. We do know certain ways that it cannot happen in any way which contradicts the Torah.

There are sources that do an excellent job of laying out clearly everything we do know about Moshiach. In English, the two best sources are The Handbook of Jewish Thought, Volume II, by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan and The Way of G-d (Derech Hashem) by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto.

[british bulldog]

i am rabbi katz

[muman613]

i am rabbi katz

Shalom Rabbi,

I hope that we will learn something from you. I have listened to some of your shuirs. I hope that you find JTF a good place to discuss these topics. Although we do not really spend a great deal of time concerned with these kinds of calculcation it is always very interesting to ponder when geula will come. Whether these calculations do actually increase our emmunah is debatable.

If such thoughts actually do cause some of our brothers and sisters to pick up and return to Eretz Yisroel it will be a blessing for you. The more righteous souls which make aliyah the better. I do not want to lengthen the exile, as I said I wish to hasten it. But I am still cautious about placing trust in calculations.

It is excellent to make your acquaintance. Baruch Hashem...
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

i am rabbi katz

 

I always liked the British Bulldog.  Good name choice.

[edu]

Dear Rabbi Katz a.k.a. British Bulldog
I didn't hear your entire lecture. I just heard excerpts.
But first a technical comment.
Are you aware, that in what the goyim call the middle ages, we had a minor change in our calendar.
That originally we or at least many counted year 1, from the creation of Adam on Rosh Hashana, but in the middle ages we started to count year 1 from the day of the creation of light on day 1 and the creation of Adam was already in year 2.
I believe you can find a background explanation in Artscroll to Ezra quoting an earlier source. You can also read a bit about it in
 לוח ששת אלפים שנה, עמוד 649
of
 מוסד הרב קוק, ירושלים, הוצאת תשלו
Secondly, I am uncomfortable with your heavy reliance on the Zohar. 1] given the heavy reliance on the zohar of false messianic groups such as Shabtei Zvi 2] The Zohar, was not released to the public and probably didn't exist, until the time of the Ramban or a little after and therefore should not be a reliable source to use, since the time of the end should have been accessable to those that were worthy, even before the advent of the Zohar.
1.Sefer Yochasin of MHR"A Zechut in the name of R"Y Dmin Acco the student of Ramban brought firsthand testimony that the book of the Zohar was written by means of one of the secret names of G-d {Shaim Hamiforash}and is not the work of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai. We are dealing with a witness who saw firsthand!
2.Rabbi Yaacov Emdeen in his book Mitpachat Sofrim brings many proofs to contradict the claim of the antiquity of the Zohar beyond all doubt and so too did he write in his comments to Sefer Yochasin, see there.

[british bulldog]

i have no interest in defending the zohar, and i am sorry for your discomfort in this matter...
however, i am of the school of thought that the zohar is purely authentic, as is rov bnei torah...and it is the yesod of kabalah by sefardim, arizal, gaon of vilna, ramchal, etc....i base my torah on them...so if the zohar is invalid...i sink with them...as for the ramban, he be shita keeps sod as sod...as he says in his hakduma to bereishis...he reveals nothing of his sod. ther notion that the zohar is fraud is propoganda by mislead misnagdim in my opinion, and by those that have never bothered to learn it with intention of understanding it, it is documented even as a source of halacha in some instances, as it is even quoted by the mishna brura. the last time i checked, the mishna brura, ie chofetz chaim, and the other meforshim, were talmidei chachamim, and quite reliable, and knowledgeable in terms of authenticity of mesora issues...we have a mesora...and it is a true mesora...such goes for the torah sh baal peh, which people like to say we dont have a mesora for that as well...and since we are on this train of thought, why dont we just question the authenticity of the chumash...i mean did moshe really write it from dictation from Hashem? these questions are juvenile and of katnei amana from a lack of understanding...to be blunt. yet you are entitled to your opinion, to what you have heard, most likely second hand at best. and as for messianic perversion...should i no longer walk into a chabad house for that matter? due to moshiachist messianic perversion? the zohar suffered absolutely no ill effects from messianic movements..and it flourishes today, and can be found in countless batei midrashim in the world, which is not true for shabtai tzvi divrei torah. i no longer wish to discuss this topic, as it is pointless and fruitless to do so.
as for the calendar issues...many questions have come up on this topic, and to me they shall remain just that questions. we have a mesora and i trust the mesora. klal yisrael is not lost nor have we ever been lost nor will we ever be lost. our mesora is authentic and authoritative. the advent of the skeptic and rationalist does not own the right of passage to skew matters of emunah peshuta, that make up the basic fabric of yiddishkite...ie, the zohar issue. i narrow mind is not always a bad thing, it is a discipline in the science of thought, and thought development, to have a mutual understanding on a given point...and as i have stated, i am with classic daas torah on these matters, which make up the rov of yeshivish torah study. if these points of interest bother you, or contend with you...i advise you to disregard my chiddushim and divrei torah...i am narrow minded, and it will only bother you...much like geocentrisism bothers people of the modern world. if you would like to discuss matters on a mutual understanding level, as agreed upon facts, and i mean facts, i would to do so. but controversial skepticism and debate is not my forte nor my interest. my interest and motivation is to understand yeshivish torah, in the classic sense, and a very particular penimius hashkafa, derived from the gra, arizal, ramchal...which point  to the zohar...as they all have a common denominator in their torahs that i prescribe to. 
in closing there is debate, and answering challenges of debate...and there is pursuit of knowledge through challenges in understanding...somehow i dont view your post as the latter, rather the former...and i have no interest in convincing you otherwise from what you have heard. but if you would like, i can offer you insight why i conclude and think the way i do, as a sharing of mindset and perspective. maybe then we can converse on common ground and interest.
please excuse me if i was off topic in interpreting your response. in my opinion, it didnt seem relevent in understanding my shiur. or it could be i just didnt understand your questions based on the nusach that i perceived through cyberspace. are you interested in the knowledge of the claim of the validity and usage of the zohar? would you like to believe that it is possible to be authentic? would you like to believe that the year is 5771, but just dont see how it could be? in that context, the situation has changed, and i would be glad to share with you.
 

[wonga66]

Yeranen Yaakov's opinion of Katz's 5771 prediction:
http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2010/12/new-5771-geula-predictions.html

New 5771 Geula Predictions

Hat tip to Shirat Devorah, who referred me to this shiur.  Rabbi David Katz has a shiur on TorahAnytime (listen here) where he takes the Zohar, Rashi, and the Ramban - and uses their wording to show how they all predict a 5771 Geula.  I hope I understood the shiur correctly - if anyone understood it differently than I present it here, please let me know.  Note that much of what he says is not the literal meaning of their words, but he claims that this could be an intended meaning of their words, al derech drush.

Before he does that, he notes 2 Gematrias:

1) Daniel 12:12 אשרי המחכה ויגיע - the word המחכה ("he that waits") can be reconstructed as 5770 in the following way:

•ה - stands for 5000
•כה - the 25th letter of the alef bet is ן with a gematria of 700
•מח - in א"ת ב"ש is יס, which = 70
2) The word הכרמל (the Carmel) can also have the gematria of 5770 as follows:


•ה - stands for 5000
•כ - really is ך, which = 500
•רמל - which = 270

He further notes that being off by a year is OK in year calculations, so any calculations for 5770 can also mean 5771.

Back to his dealing with the sources.  He says that the Hurban of the second Beit Hamikdash occurred in 3830 (unlike many Jewish sources which say it occurred in 3828, but he is taking the secular date of 70 CE).



•First, he takes the Ramban in Sefer HaGeula:



ודע, כי חכמי המשנה מעידים בביאור, כי רומה תפסה מלכות על [אנשי] בית שני, בנצחם את היונים, מזמן
 מאתים ושש שנה קודם החרבן, וכשתוסיף המספר הזה על
 אלף של״ה, שהוא קץ גאלתנו השלמה, נמצא שעמדנו תחת
 יד רומה ושכניה, אשר מכרה אותנו להם, אלף תק״מ שנה
 כי שנת אלף של״ה בה תהיה גאלתנו שלמה. אשרי המחכה
 ויגיע אליה.


So you add 3830 + 1335 (years in Daniel 12:12) + 206 (years Rome ruled before the Hurban) = 5371

 Then, he takes the Ramban in the end of Sefer HaGeula:


 ואולי הרמז אשר יעדנו לו בתחלת
דברינו מפרשת
כי תוליד בנים, הוא מפסוק: בצר לך
 ומצאוך כל הדברים האלה באחרית הימים ושבת עד ה׳
,אלהיך וגו׳
 כי אם תספור לך ומצאוך כל הדברים האלה
,באחרית הימים יעלה בידך לחשבון הגימטריא, אלף רצ״א
 כמספר, אשר מן החרבן השני הנרמז בפרשה
עד ביאת
 הגואל הראשון משיח בן אפרים
 where he takes the word כמספר which itself has the gematria of 400.  So, 5371 + 400 = 5771.


•Next, he discusses the Vilna Gaon, who many wrongly predicted a 5750 Geula from his words.  Rabbi Katz says that the Vilna Gaon wrote it in 5520 - not in 5500 - so when the Vilna Gaon divided the last 500 years of history in half, he claims it should be pushed off by 20 years, bringing us to 5770.
•Next, the Zohar in Parshat Pinhas 249b:
ואי תימא דלע׳ תחיל ולב׳ שנין אולידת, בתר אלף ומאתן
 בחושבן רע״ב


Partially based on the Sulam, Rabbi Katz explains that 3830 + 1200 = 5030.  Add another 200 as the Sulam says = 5230.  Add another 200 (I don't know where Rabbi Katz gets this from) = 5430.  Add 70 = 5500.  Add the 272 = 5772, but since we're in the 272nd year, we can say this equates to 5771.
•Next, he takes the Zohar Vayera 119a and Zohar Pinhas 252a and the Haza"l that 2 years were subtracted to ונושנתם, which means that 2 years will be subtracted from the final Geula too.  He then does a calculation based on the word שש equaling 600 to come to 5771.  (Too technical to get into the calculation.)
•Next, he takes the Rashi on Daniel 7:25, where he says:


עד עידן ועידנין ופלג עידן - קץ סתום הוא זה כאשר נאמר לדנייאל סתום הדברים וחתום ודרשוהו הראשונים איש לפי דעתו וכלו הקצים ויש לנו לפותרו עוד כאשר ראיתי כתוב בשם רב סעדיה הם אלף וג' מאות ול"ה שנים האמור בסוף הספר אשרי המחכה וגו' ופי' המועד עד עת שני עתים וחצי עת ואמר שהעתים הם ד' מאות ופ' שמיום צאתם ממצרים עד שנבנה הבית, וד' מאות ועשר ימי מקדש ראשון הרי תת"ץ ועוד חצי העת הזה תמ"ה הרי אל"ף של"ה את אלה חשוב מעת הוסר התמיד עד שוב זבח התמיד אל מקומו והוא הוסר שש שנים לפני החורבן ויש קצת ראיה בספר זה, ועוד יש מביאין ראיה לחשבון זה הסתר אסתיר פני הסתר אסתיר בגי' אלף ושל"ה


Rabbi Katz says that לפני החורבן means at the Hurban, you are looking ahead of you.  He also says that בספר should be read Bisfar (i.e. in the number).  He further says that the underlined word שש equals 600 in gematria  + ויש קצת means take the literal word שש which is smaller to mean 6.  So, 3830 + 1335 + 606 = 5771.


------------


Now, all this is a stretch as I said - it is definitely not the literal meaning of these sefarim.  Rabbi Katz will likely say that the words were purposely coded to not allow their meaning to be revealed until it is close to the Geula.  Whatever it is, it is a nice Drush on their holy words.  Whether it is Emet or not, time will tell.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have not listened to the shiur.

I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense).


But I would like to ask the Rabbi this very important question:

What is the point of all this?   Why bother with this kind of speculation?      Does it help people?   Does it help G-d?   Does it please G-d?     

And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption?   What will you say then?   I am very interested to know what you will say then, hypothetically speaking.    And in that hypothetical scenario, after you say it (whatever you plan to say) how did all of this help anyone?

[british bulldog]

I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense). = listening would be an obvious choice based on trhe fact we are discussing it, and would answer obvious questions due to obvious missing information.

What is the point of all this? to show depth to rishonim, chazal, and that they can be shown is agreement, in a scenario, that we havent even finished yet, showing maybe , maybe they knew more than we give them credit for..and there ability to give over sodot amongst the divrei pushut...maybe they actually had ruach ha kodesh like we are told to believe....and maybe we can actually see their gadlus....through learning b'iyun, even the words of rashi, ramban.
Why bother with this kind of speculation? i dont, they did...we are in that tekufa, its interesting how it all comes together..so many pieces of the puzzle, and now chazal could be right on cue...God Willing.
 Does it help people? depends on who you are...if you want to love the rishonim, the mesora, the torah, Gods wisdom and sages...then yes...and if they were wrong, to me 5771 sounds better than 1405 and certainly fits what we know to be true much better. its divrei torah, not a crystal ball of buy instant faith. its the same help to people that rashi speaks of the sugia in shas, when you didnt realize that he even was...i thought rashi was simple they say, then you realize and learn he was the greatest rishon with ruach hakodesh...that helps people to see divinity, yes.
Does it help G-d? no, but but if God was with his words, it pleases God to find it and share it, so that we can find God in all words of inspired torah, kol shacen in psukim, which we know are latent...then to find it is kiddush Hashem.
Does it please G-d?    if you are leshma, with no agenda, and just want to show emes...then yes. bonus points if it is emes...which some things are eaiser to prove as emes than others. and if its not emes, as most pshatim take work and chozara even for daniel..then you will come to the emes...then for sure God is happy.
And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption? listen to the shiur and wait for 5772, no difference..years are inclusive and non inclusive, with 2 year leeway.
What will you say then? well, at least we still have 5772.
how did all of this help anyone? if i was accurate, then its obvious, otherwise...i hope then i showed you how to darshen, realize torahs depth...and maybe you can start to learn a little deeper, and bring more light to the world. emes lemito is not easy to come by...does anyone ever really know pshat in something? torah is endless and infinite...a sugia in bava metzia is endless, ive been working on pshat of the first mishna there for 4 years...every day i claim to have it, and i find the support in the sources and shas etc....i to this day, have no clue what that mishna is about...in tachlis...its infinite...but i can show you tons of torah from my journeys through it...this is much the same, only its lamysa, and theoretical about 2 guys holding a talis saying its mine, no its mine. i dont know whos talis it is...not do i know when moshiach comes. but i can give you a great pshat showing depth of torah in both cases...in truth id rather show you my chidushim on bava metzia...but i have yet to find someone willing to tackle 4 years worth of daas torah on one mishna that i havent been able to even finish yet....yet i could write 30 books on what i know from it...here i decided to give a 40 min shiur, much the same derech, only with this people are talking and listening. shall we discus somchos and the mishna and how rashi reveals the secrets of creation in the first rashi in bava metzia? i didnt think so...yet i am able and willing if youd like to. and i can show you how the ramban agrees with rashi there too. if only people cared about shas as much as moshiach, maybe the world would be a better place and moshiach would come...maybe thats why Hashem held the mt. over our heads at sinai to accept the oral torah. maybe its the oral torah's richness that allows us to understand rashis like this and delve into them...and remove the locking mechanism to the torah that people claim isnt there out of ignorance. ill stop here.

[edu]

Rabbi Katz aka british bulldog wrote in defense of the Zohar that it is a:

source of halacha in some instances, as it is even quoted by the mishna brura. the last time i checked, the mishna brura, ie chofetz chaim, and the other meforshim, were talmidei chachamim, and quite reliable, and knowledgeable in terms of authenticity of mesora issues

The Mishna Brura ruled, siman 25 comment 42: "the Knesset Hagdola wrote as a principle of the Poskim that whenever the Kabbalists and the Zohar argue against the Gemara and the Poskim go after the Gemara and the Poskim", {end of quote}.
It's true that when the Zohar doesn't clearly contradict Gemara and Poskim he does take Zohar into account. But that doesn't necessarily elevate it to the status you give it.
It's not all or nothing.
There are other big achronim that don't give the Zohar any halachic weight at all.
On the calendar issue. I brought you clear sources that we don't have a mesora of using the day of the creation of light as year 1 of the calendar. Check the sources!
One final question for you Rabbi Katz. Do you support the ruling of the rebbe of Chabad not to sleep in a succa  on succot based on his understanding of Kabbalistic sources?

[british bulldog]

i give the zohar the status as valid text, just like the rabbanim you quoted in the mishna brura...if it is a messianic cult text of shabtai tzvi, would there be a have mina of even arguing with the gemara? thats like saying berg disagrees with chazal.
achronim bigger than the gra and chofetz chaim etc pussel the zohar? and we werent speaking halachic, that was just a bonus, we said valid...ie to learn it and take it seriously and not as fiction.
the calendar issue is a non issue...did you buy a calendar this year? what did it say on it? mine said 5771...if you disagree with that, would you buy a chumash that says, "the 5 books of moses, manuscript writen by rabbi lisa helm. i wouldnt, but thats what you are doing..walking around with a calendar, but saying..nah i dont believe it though, its really 5865...i just bought it because its on sale, and perpetuating shekker doesnt bother me...thats you. there are no sources that say the year is not 5771 and are valid...name one. God gave dates to daniel knowing that they were useless, and going to be extinct and a non issue..and rashi and others fell for it? rashi is that fallable? there is no good reason to change history and chazal over some skeptic rationalists fears and doubts...what else should i start to question?
rabbi ginzburg says to not sleep in the sukkah because of his understanding of kabbalistic sources...is that what you mean? btw its a devar pushut the sukkah inyan, as it is muter to not sleep in the sukkah already lechatchila..so a kabbalistic enhancement it is irrelevent and a chassidic nuance.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense). = listening would be an obvious choice based on trhe fact we are discussing it, and would answer obvious questions due to obvious missing information.

What is the point of all this? to show depth to rishonim, chazal, and that they can be shown is agreement, in a scenario, that we havent even finished yet, showing maybe , maybe they knew more than we give them credit for..and there ability to give over sodot amongst the divrei pushut...maybe they actually had ruach ha kodesh like we are told to believe....and maybe we can actually see their gadlus....through learning b'iyun, even the words of rashi, ramban. 

I don't understand what the heck you are saying.  All of that can be seen just by learning some Talmud.  The greatness of Chazal is reflected in their deep understanding of the pesukim (verses) and their complex discussions.  This can also be appreciated greatly in divrei aggada (words of homily).

Why would showing a prediction of the redemption and the coming of moshiach in the year _____  reflect any of that?    You are actually desecrating chazal.  Because you are making their greatness contingent on some event coming true, which hasn't happened yet.   

And then if it doesn't happen in 5771 (or 5772 or 3), chazal don't have gadluth (greatness) and can't teach sodoth -deep secrets -  (Chas ve Shalom, God forbid)?   Please don't tell me you believe that. 

Why bother with this kind of speculation? i dont, they did... 

With all due respect, this is ridiculous.   They did not say explicitly what you are saying.  You are reading something into their words, making a calculation, and making discussion about it.   If it wasn't for you and your creative explanation, no one would know the thing you said - and that's precisely why you made it into a shiur.   You cannot abdicate responsibility for highlighting this particular subject and focusing on it.  Because you did.

Does it help people? depends on who you are...if you want to love the rishonim, the mesora, the torah, Gods wisdom and sages...then yes 

   What?   
I can't love the rishonim unless they predict the redemption for the very year I am currently living in?   That's a very empty and meaningless kind of "love" and very selfish.   People are going to 'love' chazal for making them feel good and nothing else?

...and if they were wrong, to me 5771 sounds better than 1405 and certainly fits what we know to be true much better.   

   

That makes no sense.   Predicting 1405 is no problem because no one can know when the redemption will happen.   That is why CHAZAL IN THE TALMUD WARNED AGAINST MAKING SUCH PREDICTIONS BECAUSE NO ONE CAN KNOW FOR SURE.  The Rambam indeed cites this warning of chazal.   So if someone thought 1405 and was incorrect, there's nothing wrong with that.   If a rishon predicted the redemption for 1405, that does not take away ONE BIT from his greatness unless one has a very childish view of that rishon.  They can be wrong, especially about a matter like this that no one can predict!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

its the same help to people that rashi speaks of the sugia in shas, when you didnt realize that he even was...i thought rashi was simple they say, then you realize and learn he was the greatest rishon with ruach hakodesh...that helps people to see divinity, yes. 

It can only even APPROACH this kind of help if your prediction comes true.   But there is no guarantee.

Does it help G-d? no, but but if G-d was with his words, it pleases G-d to find it and share it, so that we can find G-d in all words of inspired torah, kol shacen in psukim, which we know are latent...then to find it is kiddush Hashem. 

   

"inspired Torah?"    Rashi did not believe himself to be a prophet so I don't know where you're getting this from.

And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption? listen to the shiur and wait for 5772, no difference..years are inclusive and non inclusive, with 2 year leeway.   
What will you say then? well, at least we still have 5772.   

Well, it seems maybe I didn't get my point across.  So I'll have to ask a more pointed question.

What will happen if the year 5771 (or 5772 and 5773) all come and pass without a complete redemption. 
What will you say then?

how did all of this help anyone? if i was accurate, then its obvious, otherwise...i hope then i showed you how to darshen, realize torahs depth   ...and maybe you can start to learn a little deeper, and bring more light to the world.   

But can't that be done without getting people's hopes up for something that might shatter their emunah if it doesn't come true?!

emes lemito is not easy to come by...does anyone ever really know pshat in something? torah is endless and infinite...a sugia in bava metzia is endless, ive been working on pshat of the first mishna there for 4 years...every day i claim to have it, and i find the support in the sources and shas etc....i to this day, have no clue what that mishna is about

  I don't believe that claim, you do not have "no idea" if you've been learning it 4 years - Don't be so modest, rabbi.

...in tachlis...its infinite...but i can show you tons of torah from my journeys through it...this is much the same, only its lamysa, and theoretical about 2 guys holding a talis saying its mine, no its mine. i dont know whos talis it is...not do i know when moshiach comes. but i can give you a great pshat showing depth of torah in both cases...in truth id rather show you my chidushim on bava metzia...

I'd prefer that you do.  It just so happens I have learned that mishna and its associated Talmudic discussion.  But why shouldn't every Jew benefit from the traditional Jewish learning?   I think you should share that rather than predict the date of redemption, personally.

but i have yet to find someone willing to tackle 4 years worth of daas torah on one mishna that i havent been able to even finish yet....yet i could write 30 books on what i know from it...here i decided to give a 40 min shiur, much the same derech, only with this people are talking and listening. shall we discus somchos and the mishna and how rashi reveals the secrets of creation in the first rashi in bava metzia? i didnt think so... 

  Why not?   I think that beats predicting the date of moshiach any day.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, I'll say one thing, it's great to have a rabbi here in the Torah section!

[british bulldog]

lamysa, hjere is the answer to your question now that you have elaborated a bit.
rashis words contain the mesora of the geulah...through his ruach hakodesh combined with daas loshon hakodesh, being kadosh himself (not a navi) and daas torah. Meaning: Hashem is with him...and there are many sodot of rashi, his ktav is holy, but not as nevuah, inspired, to pass the mesora, in katnus and in gadlus at the same time. most see katnus..a nice pshat in rashi, move on. but then there is to seek the ultimate gadlus in rashi. every year we get closer in this inyan, rashi will become more and more potent...just like figuring out a gemara, until the whole thing clicks. we are in 5771. the rishonim can be senm to express the same year in unison. it is not a prediction. it is a checkpoint, one that at the same time can show a beauty of torah to see it in the words...again much like a gemara. then someone tears down your gemara, a kasha you can get out of...do you quit learning the gemara? is the gemara wrong? did it destroy your emunah? were you predicting a new halacha with your pshat? no. you were trying to understand...even daniel tried to understand this very thing, and fell before getting it right, and the rashis say you will fail. so what do you do? 5771 comes and goes...keep trying, can it be this year...tzipia leyeshua....ad 120. or when he actually comes...you shoudl look and wait and seek to hear him every day says the gemara. thats what im doing. in the world, i see it. so i checked the sources out of curiosity...and i saw it there too. i promise you...when moshiach does in fact come...rashis words will be on the money...with a fantastic pshat...one that blinds will greatness, and his greatness...they werent wrong...but you can only take it one year at a time...some times are a greater es ratzon than others...we seem to be in a prety big es ratzon...should i not check to see how the rashi and ramban would work out? they worked out, and will work out for the next few years...once again, not a prediction...kind of like checking an equation/work...to which the gra refers to this system as mysa v cheshbon. like i said when moshiach comes, you will look at that rashi, see gadlus, and see rashi had it there the whole time...and it wasnt a prediction...it was just there...with him...with his torah...within his words...as Hashem is with him...in gemara, rashis words contain every deah, if you look..and you apply the same penimius methodolgy to find these gems..and every time...its there with rashi...he is a face of torah, lefi peshuto he says...and that face has 70 faces. rashi is not wrong, he just may temporarily misunderstood or underestimated...but he pulls through time and time again, in daniel, in gemara, in chumash..everywhere....and you can learn a rashi, not just read and translate a rashi. you can darshen a rashi...Hashem put the deas there..and rashi was the kli that made it possible. thats why i love rashi...he is alive, torah as tefilah...torah sh baal peh mamash, poetically...not only technically...katnus for the layman, gadlus for the gadol..a kli for even eternal torah. the cheshek to torah on this level, doesnt destroy emunah, quite the contrary, it compells you to learn and investigate more. as for this rashi, its just another flavor of rashi...as you said, there is halacha, agadata, sugia, and one topic is moshiach..which rashi gets into quite a bit, also of which he is a majaor yesod, and is trying to be understood, and conveying those secrets. rashi itself, is a lumdus...even if on lumdus. there is nothing greater to me than learning a sugia, very iyun and putting it ands seeing it clearly in rashi...ive studied mashiach alot, as i am a student of the gra...kol hator. and i cant wait to see pshat in rashi and ramban. and i have the chutzpah to say...this year could be the geulah, from what i see feel and hear...and if it is...i will say  "rashi had it" and i was zoche to see it in rashi...and if 5774 comes and goes...the next time i get the itch that this is it, in my expectation/longing/waiting/hoping...you better believe im looking up rashi..as the sugia goes on...rashi goes on...we all go on...and just as i can see rashi on que in the sugia i love the most in shas, shnayim ochzin..which i can show you even tangibly...bezrat Hashem me, or someone will show me in my lifetime...rashi on que...so far im alive...and i will strive until moshiach comes, or 120. but nobody will tell me, that at least my hava minas in rashi werent beautiful..sometimes a hava mina can be worth the sugia itself...just read the first mishna in bava metzia and rashi there...there is no ramai in the mishna? nice hava mina rashi...you just gave me the entire sugia.  and i think you are right. the mishna is helech.

[muman613]

Shalom Rabbi,

I still have my reservations concerning the entire topic of calculation of the date of Geulah. I believe the Chazal whom considered it detrimental for calculations to be made due to the loss of bitachon and emmunah as a result of incorrectly calculated dates. This is similar to the phenomenon of false messiahs because we all are commanded to have Emunah Shlema that Moshiach will be sent, as it is one of the Thirteen Principles of Rambam. As we are commanded to believe in this, we wish for his coming every day, and how does one keep faith when dates come and go, and the redemption is not happening? Can't this be compared to the times of the Roman Revolt when it looked like Bar Kochba was the moshiach, and the people NEEDED someone to believe in? In these times we similarly feel that we NEED moshiach NOW.

How many Jews have been lost because they have given up on Hashem and his promise? How many have become so discouraged because we are SOOOO close to the 6000 year mark and yet we don't see that the changes that the prophets foresaw happening? I know that some of those prophecies indeed have come true... But on the grand scale we have not seen the rebuilding of the Beit HaMikdash, nor a real ingathering of the exiles.

Aren't we better served by concentrating on bringing back our Jewish brothers and sisters, and urging gentiles to become Noachides, so that we can merit the geulah? Isn't it better to have a geulah which we merit rather than having it happen because Hashem has to before the Jewish people are lost?

PS: By the way, I do consider the Zohar to be an authentic source... I have heard many Torah topics discussed in light of the Zohar.

[edu]

Dear Rabbi Katz
Rashi Holds that the destruction of the 2nd temple was in 3828 see hebrew source below.
Ramban says it was one year later, since the year of destruction in his view is not counted as part of the 420 that the 2nd temple existed.
If you accept my sources than the Ramban's year for the destruction of the Temple 3829 becomes 3830.
Otherwise, you will have a situation where neither Ramban or Rashi have the date of the 2nd Temple destruction at 3830 [which also agrees with the date given by the gentiles]
Now our last shmita year was in 5768 in our calendar . This number is divisible by 7 with no remainder.
3829 is also divisible by 7 with no remainder. Rabbi Yosi in tractate Archin/Erchin 11b states that the Temple was destroyed, the year following the shmitta year. This again would fit in with Ramban.
I heard that there might be another girsa/textual reading of the churban/destruction year to fit Rashi's views with Rabbi Yosi.

רש"י מסכת עבודה זרה דף ט עמוד א

כי מעיינת מואת הנפש אשר עשו עד מתן תורה - הכי הוו הוסף אותן על מנין מתן תורה ונמצא אלפים מכוונין מואת הנפש אשר עשו וגו' עד גמר ד' אלפים לבריאת עולם והוא קע"ב שנים לאחר חורבן כיצד הרי מנית עד יציאת מצרים תמ"ח על עודף אלפים וכתיב (מ"א ו) ויהי בשמנים שנה וארבע מאות שנה לצאת בני ישראל עד ויבן שלמה את הבית הרי תתקכ"ח על אלפים כשנבנה הבית וימי בית ראשון ד' מאות ועשר הרי שלשה אלפים ושל"ח שנים וגלות בבל ע' שנים הרי ת"ח וימי בית שני ת"ך הרי תתכ"ח
British bulldog aka Rabbi Katz you wrote

rabbi ginzburg says to not sleep in the sukkah because of his understanding of kabbalistic sources...is that what you mean? btw its a devar pushut the sukkah inyan, as it is muter to not sleep in the sukkah already lechatchila..so a kabbalistic enhancement it is irrelevent and a chassidic nuance.

This is not a true statement. None of the poskim hold that lechatchila that is to say ideally one is allowed to sleep outside a succa on succot. They only give leniencies, to avoid the ideal situation, when sleeping in the succa would conflict with other ideals.

[muman613]

Regarding the question about sleeping in the sukkah I think that the intention is that we should sleep in the sukkah, but that there are leniencies concerning weather...

Here is what Aish.com says on the topic:

http://www.aish.com/h/su/dits/48968731.html

10. Is one obligated to sleep in the Sukkah?

During the week of Sukkot, the Sukkah is to be considered as a person's home. Since the primary activities of the home are eating and sleeping, a man is obligated to sleep in the Sukkah. According to some opinions, sleeping in the Sukkah is even more important than eating there.

Some are lenient and sleep in the house because:

    *      In many countries, the weather is cold at this time of year, and sleeping in the Sukkah would cause much discomfort. (However, it is praiseworthy to organize a way to heat the Sukkah at night in order to be able to perform this important mitzvah.)
    *      Women do not usually sleep in the Sukkah, and if a married man would sleep in the Sukkah leaving his wife alone in the house, this may cause him distress.

Whoever is meticulous to sleep in the Sukkah and fulfill the mitzvah properly will merit seeing the Divine Presence.

Chabad has a very interesting site on the topic @ http://www.chabad.org/holidays/JewishNewYear/template_cdo/aid/749894/jewish/Do-I-have-to-sleep-in-the-sukkah.htm

Do I have to sleep in the sukkah?

By Menachem Posner

The Talmud tells us that during sukkot a man is obligated to sleep in the sukkah.1 This is quoted as binding in the latter Halachic works as well.2

However, it appears that that at least since the 13th century the common practice is to sleep indoors. There are a number of different suggestions why this is so. All of them are based on the fact that the obligation to dwell in the sukkah does not apply if it makes a person at all uncomfortable.3

The thirteenth-century sage, Rabbi Mordechai ben Hillel Ashkenazi, writes that most people of his time did not sleep in the sukkah and suggests that this is because the cold weather made it uncomfortable—and therefore unnecessary.4

Rabbeinu Manoach ben Yaakov (13th-14th centuries) adds the additional concern that sleeping in the sukkah puts the person and his belongings in danger of being robbed.5

Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe (1530-1612) writes that even if a person would be able to keep warm in the sukkah, if it is inconvenient to shlep bedding to and from the sukkah every night, he does not need to sleep in the sukkah.6

Rabbi Moshe Isserles (1520-1572) feels that the dispensation not to sleep in the sukkah has nothing to do with weather and writes that it is because the sukkah is not private enough for a man to sleep there with his wife.7

Rabbi David HaLevi Segal (c. 1586-1667) takes this one step further by writing that sleeping alone is not a very festive way to celebrate the holiday. Celebrating the holiday with one's wife is a mitzvah which trumps the obligation to sleep in the sukkah.8

Nevertheless, in modern times and particularly in warmer climates, it has become more common in some communities to make the effort to sleep in a sukkah.

Interestingly, the Chabad custom—which is quite stringent with regards to the other sukkah-related obligations—is to not sleep in the sukkah. Read The Sukkah and Sleeplessness to find out why this is so.

FOOTNOTES
1.    Mishna, Sukkah 20b
2.    Code of Jewish Law 639
3.    Code of Jewish Law 640:4
4.    Mordechai Sukkah 741
5.    Rabbeinu Manoach Commentary to Rambam 3:6
6.    Levush 640:4
7.    Ramo 639:2
8.    Taz 639:9

[edu]

For those that understand Hebrew I thought I would quote a well respected source, Baal Hamaor, to Rosh Hashana, where he spells out that there were 2 dating systems in use in the Jewish world.
One, which starts on the year of creation of light
Two, A second one that starts a year later with the creation of man on Rosh Hashana.
I saw someone speculate (not Baal Hamaor) in an internet article that one of the reasons that the first method, eventually spread to be the universal custom, was that in this system, one could easily determine which is the Shmitta (Sabbatical) year, by just checking if the year is divisible by 7 with no remainder.
He did however, give additional reasons, which I won't go into.
A careful examination however of Ramban to tractate Avoda Zara page 9 will show that he was using the second method, for counting the years. That is why the Shmitta year, as determined by the Gaonim, in his commentary is not divisible by 7 with a remainder of 0.
In any case here is the words of Baal Hamaor
בעל המאור מסכת עבודה זרה דף ב עמוד ב: "דע כי במנהגי הראשונים שתי חשבונות מבריאת עולם שאחת מוסיף על השני שנה אחת וזה נמצא מפורש בתשובת הגאונים בהרבה מקומות כי יש מי שחושב מתשרי שמולדו וי"ד וזה הוא החשבון הנכון יותר אע"פ שלא פשט מנהגו כי הוא מתחיל ממציאת העולם ויש מי שחושב מתשרי שמולדו בהר"ד וחושב את שלא נמצא כנמצא וזה מוסיף על הראשון בחשבונו שנה אחת וזהו שפשט עכשיו בכל המקומות הידועין לנו והוי יודע כי בית שני חרב במוצאי שביעית כמו שמפורש בערכין והוא חרב בשנת תכ"א לבנינו אלא שנת החרבן אינה נמנית בכלל שנות הבנין אלא בכלל שנות החרבן ואפשר שהיה זה מפני שנתפרסמה שטיפת החרבן מתחלת השנה והיא שנת ג' אלפים תתכ"ט לבריאת עולם לחושבין מן תשרי של וי"ד ומשנה זו ושנה זו בכלל אנו חושבין קע"ב שנה אחר חורבן הבית להשלמת ד' אלפים גם זה לחושבים מתשרי של וי"ד אבל לחשבוננו הפשוט מתשרי של בהר"ד שנת החרבן היא שנת ג' אלפים תת"ל לבריאת עולם וכשתטול שתי שנים מכל מאה ותוסיף לה על הפרט תבא לך שנת החרבן במוצאי שביעית שהיא ראשונה לשמטה והחושבים מתשרי שמולדו וי"ד צריכין להוסיף בחשבונם שנה אחת כדי שתתכוין להם ע"ד החשבון הזה שנת החורבן במוצאי שביעית.

[muman613]

Your post incited my interest in the author Baal Hamaor, and I found a bit of info about him:

http://www.rabbiwein.com/Rabbi-Zerachya-Halevy-the-Baal-Hamaor--brJews-of-Provence-P551.html

Rabbi Zerachya Ha Levy, who was known for his great work, the Baal Ha Maor, was a Spanish Jew who came to Provence as a young man and achieved a reputation there for his genius and scholarship. In the great Jewish tradition of give-and-take intellectual debate, he and his contemporary, the Ravid III, wrote numerous books critiquing each other on many issues in Jewish Law and philosophy. Though he remained somewhat of an outsider among the rabbis of Provence, he brought the Spanish flavor of Torah study to the community and had a distinct and powerful influence.

Here is some discussion of his decisions concerning calculation of dates:

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/The%20International%20Date%20Line%20and%20Halacha.htm

Location of the Halachic Date Line
The Halachic Date Line is possibly different than the International Date Line.  The reason for this, is that the current International Date Line was rather arbitrarily drawn in 1921 by the British Admiralty [1], while certain Gedolim such as the Baal Hamaor who lived in the 12th century refer to the Halachic Date Line.  So, on the topic as to the location of the Kav Hataarich there is much debate amongst twentieth century Poskim, including the Chazon Ish, Rav Yechiel Michel Tukatzinsky, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Yonassan Shteif, the Sefer Haibur, Rav Dovid Shapiro, and Rav Yonah Merzbach [3].

The earliest authority to address this issue is the Baal Hamaor.  He brings up the topic based on a Gemara (Rosh Hashanah 20b) regarding the topic of Kiddush Hachodesh, the sanctification of the new month.  The Baal Hamaor explains that Bait Din has until noon on the day that they see the molad, new moon, to declare Rosh Chodesh on that same day.  However, if it is after noon, then Rosh Chodesh is on the next day.  This explanation would only make sense if the Halachic Date Line was at the Kitze Hamizrach which is 90° east of Jerusalem.  This is so because the reason why the Baal Hamaor said noon is because that is the last time in Israel that somewhere else in the world that the day is just starting.  In order for Rosh Chodesh to be on that day, it must be possible for Rosh Chodesh to last 24 hours somewhere in the world.  Since noon is 18 hours into the day (starting from sunset on the night before), the place where the day is just starting is 18 hours to the west of Israel which is 270° west of Israel because every time zone is made up of 15°.  So, the place where the new day starts, or the Halachic Date Line, must be six hours to the east of Jerusalem which is also 90° east of Jerusalem.  This Line is on the 125E meridian [4].

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Well, I'll say one thing, it's great to have a rabbi here in the Torah section!

 This guy is not a legit "Rabbi". Sorry, what he says is kookooo. (And I'm not the type to bash rabbis, or people in general) but I just listened to his "shiur" on Gillad Shalit and he is insane (And says giving 1,000 terrorists for 1 is "Halacha Lemiseh") (besides all these calculations he makes on the "Geulah" and Moshiah.)
 The most painful thing and battle in the future for the Jewish people would have to be cleaning up our own leaders. This is a war, not just with the Arabs any longer, not just with the internationals, but for the hearts and minds of (our) people. And people like Katz, is in the way and is a mental impediment to our future redemption.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This guy is not a legit "Rabbi". Sorry, what he says is kookooo. (And I'm not the type to bash rabbis, or people in general) but I just listened to his "shiur" on Gillad Shalit and he is insane (And says giving 1,000 terrorists for 1 is "Halacha Lemiseh") (besides all these calculations he makes on the "Geulah" and Moshiah.)
 The most painful thing and battle in the future for the Jewish people would have to be cleaning up our own leaders. This is a war, not just with the Arabs any longer, not just with the internationals, but for the hearts and minds of (our) people. And people like Katz, is in the way and is a mental impediment to our future redemption.

Lol I was trying to be nice.  I agree that what he says is not serious, however.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Lol I was trying to be nice.  I agree that what he says is not serious, however.

 The problem isn't that its not serious, sometimes it IS SERIOUS, when and if others take it and follow it. I personally emailed him stating my disgust with his positions and that he's teaching non-sense. He asked me if their is something specific I want him to talk about (make a shiur) I didn't get back to him, but personally I wont tell him anything because the less of him the better for all of Am Yisrael.
 Im just stating this here for some of the people here not to take him seriously becuase his positions are out of line with the REAL Torah.

[Daniel Michael ben Avraham]

We all know that after our Temple was destroyed nevuah was given over to children and fools.  No one but Hashem knows when things will happen.  It depends largely on what we do and what we merit.