Author Topic: ZIONISM or JUDAHISM ? (Read 11443 times)

Tzvi Ben Roshel1 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 27, 2007, 10:59:23 PM »

Quote from: jdl4ever on November 27, 2007, 10:48:01 PM

Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on November 27, 2007, 10:18:15 PM
I dont know everything and I dont claim to, but right now what im thinking is, how could we have supported the political aspect of zionism and contine to support it, after all the crimes it has and does do. For example many of us woke up after gush katif and amona, but much earlier then that it was involved with even bigger crimes of spreading heresy into the Jewish nation (hellinism + haskallah+ the media and education system), they have done many other crimes both physical and spiritual and as a Religious G-d fearing person how can one support a movement that slaughtered(s) Jews spiritually? I personally would rather see my children slaughtered by hitler as a rightious Jew, then become a hellinist, but still alive in this world.
We support it because having a Jewish Israel is a safe haven for the Jews so another Holocost doesn't happen and it is doing what the Torah commands. As for Amona, 90% of the Charedim learn all day in Yeshiva in Israel. If they all would have left the Yeshiva and took a trip to Amona to defend it then we would have taken over. I don't blame the working class Jews because they would have risked their job by going to prison for a few days. I blame my fellow religious Jews more than I blame the hellonists, they simply see our weakness and take advantage of it.

(Not that im against having A state), but its not necissarily safe in Israel for Jews right now either, and the way things are going it wont be that much safe for Jews in the near future either (both in and outside the state and land of Israel). Creating a Jewish society should be for Kiddush Hashem and creating a G-dly socity in my opinion and not the opposite.

jdl4ever · « **Reply #26 on:** November 27, 2007, 11:02:12 PM »

If someone from Yeshivah gets arrested for a week or two and released but bothered with some court dates he would be at very little loss compared to someone who is working and therefore loses their occupation over it since the learner can just go back and learn but the one who works may never find another occupation and his family may starve. Since you think that learners are on a higher status than those who work and understand the Torah more, they should be the ones setting the example. Listen, saying that Cheredim sinned when they did sin is not "hating Charedim". Non-Charedim sin too sometimes and if you point such instances out that is fine. Don't play the denial game, we're supposed to tell people when they sin so that they may correct themselves.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2007, 11:03:55 PM »

Tzvi, Chaim says the Haredim need to go to work. He addressed the Gur once on Ask JTF.

Also, the Satmar/NK are NOT merely "opposed to the current regime". They hate Zionism no matter what, and indeed they sincerely believe that Israel is Arab/Muslim land. They even make trips to Iran to stand in solidarity with Ahmadinejad.

These people aren't Jews--they are rodefs.

jdl4ever · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2007, 11:09:20 PM »

Well, in my grandparent's town in Europe 100% of the Jews living in the town were religious but that didn't save them from the Holocaust. So perhaps G-d wants us Jews to do what the Torah says and settle Israel and perhaps we'd have a better outcome. If it takes 200 years for it to become not run by the secular than it is still worth it compared to the alternative.

jdl4ever · « **Reply #29 on:** November 27, 2007, 11:11:47 PM »

Oh, and the Satmur "Rebbe" was the Rabbi of my grandmother and great grandparent's town and he told the million or so Jews in Hungary that Zionism was evil and they should stay in Europe. Well my great grandparents died and so should have the Satmur "Rebbe" paid for his mistake.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #30 on:** November 27, 2007, 11:49:44 PM »

Quote from: jdl4ever on November 27, 2007, 11:09:20 PM

Well, in my grandparent's town in Europe 100% of the Jews living in the town were religious but that didn't save them from the Holocaust. So perhaps G-d wants us Jews to do what the Torah says and settle Israel and perhaps we'd have a better outcome. If it takes 200 years for it to become not run by the secular than it is still worth it compared to the alternative.

The problem is that by nature most religious Jews in WWII were very, very nice, sweet people who believed in, to use a Christian catchphrase, "turning the other cheek". Nobody listened to Ze'ev Jabotinsky (zt"l). They didn't believe in using violence or rising up against the government even when their lives were obviously at stake. They wanted to be obedient citizens to their (Axis-allied) nations and "win over" the anti-Semites that way. Of course, we know where that got them.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:05:22 AM »

Quote from: C.F. on November 27, 2007, 08:45:33 PM

I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.

But Rabbi Kahane would call the Satmar Rebbe a Tzaddik. There is a difference between the NK and the Satmars.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #32 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:08:17 AM »

What Rabbi?

judeanoncapta · « **Reply #33 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:08:56 AM »

Quote from: Dominater96 on November 28, 2007, 02:05:22 AM

Quote from: C.F. on November 27, 2007, 08:45:33 PM
I agree completely with TBOT. The Satmars/Neturei Karta scum are called by the Bible to be Amalek. This is because they are backstabbers who have declared war on their fellow Jews. Chaim would tell you there is no difference between these demons and the Germans.
But Rabbi would call the Satmar Rebbe a Tzaddik. There is a difference between the NK and the Satmars.

There is a defference but it is very minor.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #34 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:11:33 AM »

More like nonexistent. The Satmar "rebbe" deliberately ordered his brainwashed dupes to stay in Hungary and march to the death camps as part of his deal with the SS to allow him to live.

If that doesn't make him a rodef, I don't know what makes anybody one.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:12:59 AM »

Quote from: C.F. on November 27, 2007, 11:03:55 PM

Tzvi, Chaim says the Haredim need to go to work. He addressed the Gur once on Ask JTF.

Also, the Satmar/NK are NOT merely "opposed to the current regime". They hate Zionism no matter what, and indeed they sincerely believe that Israel is Arab/Muslim land. They even make trips to Iran to stand in solidarity with Ahmadinejad.

These people aren't Jews--they are rodefs.

The Rambam says that Jews need to work. ( Hilchot Talmud Torah Perek 3, forgot which halacha.) He says anyone who thinks that they should learn all day, not work, and collect from tzedakah, extinguishes the light of torah, "biza et Hashem", and loses his place in olam haba. This is because you arent supposed to benefit from torah in this world. he also says they will come to steal. Ill elaborate later.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #36 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:14:09 AM »

Alright, do that. All I know is that Chaim has said that under Kahanism the Haredim who do not work or serve in the military for religious reasons would all have to.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #37 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:15:18 AM »

Quote from: C.F. on November 28, 2007, 02:08:17 AM

What Rabbi?

Rabbi Kahane ZT"L.

Quote from: C.F. on November 28, 2007, 02:14:09 AM

Alright, do that. All I know is that Chaim has said that under Kahanism the Haredim who do not work or serve in the military for religious reasons would all have to.

But Im not sure if this is brought down as halacha in Shulchan Aruch, I dont think it is.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #38 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:16:28 AM »

Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) said that the Satmar "rebbe" was a blessed and saintly man? Please provide a source.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #39 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:40:58 AM »

Heres your source. http://kahane.org/audio.htm Click on "A Torah Shiur at Yeshivah University" and listen and you will hear it at 4:15.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #40 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:42:14 AM »

He says ZT"L which means Zecher Tzaddik Lebracha.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #41 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:12:08 AM »

I'll ask Chaim about this. It does not seem right.

Dominater96 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:21:36 AM »

What doesnt seem right? This is a JEWISH Religous view of the Satmar Rebbe, Zionist, and Non Zionist.

Raulmarrio2000 · « **Reply #43 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:06:54 AM »

Satmar and Neturei Karta are two completely different things. Satmar say Jews, only Jews, must not support political Zionism, but Gentiles are bound to help Israel. A Satmar Rav it to me by chat. Jews must wait for the Moshiach to take the land, but you are not a Jew and are bound to support Israel. It's nor up to you to get involved in Hallachic interpretations. You are a Goy and must support any Jewish effort.
On the other side Neturei Karta helps and loves Goyim who attack Israel.
That's the great difference!!!!!
Both, Orthodox Zionists and Orthodox anti-POLICAL HUMAN Zionism hold that EY is Jewish, they only differ on when Jews must take it.
However, seclalr Zionists who support surrender of Land have abandoned the hope, and many of their prayers are just lies. How can they say Amidah, which has many blessings for rebuilding Israel, if they support a compromise to rennounce that land? It's a Bracha said in vain!!!!!

takebackourtemple · « **Reply #44 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:53:39 AM »

And where does everyone think the Moshiach was or will be to be born? I'll tell you one thing, it is not in Brooklyn.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #45 on:** November 28, 2007, 07:45:40 AM »

Quote from: takebackourtemple on November 28, 2007, 06:53:39 AM

And where does everyone think the Moshiach was or will be to be born? I'll tell you one thing, it is not in Brooklyn.

I don't know...you never know...

But i'm pretty sure it won't be Antarctica...unless his parents are on a cruise and have a baby near by.

Merkava · « **Reply #46 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:56:04 PM »

These are some interesting responses.

Quote

No i mean the question assumes the two are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Therefore the question is worthless.

You sure ?

Quote

http://www.nkusa.org/

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #47 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:55:29 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on November 28, 2007, 02:16:28 AM

Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) said that the Satmar "rebbe" was a blessed and saintly man? Please provide a source.

I believe he did say ZT"L - and what he said was something to the effect of "There are obviously many things I disagree with the Satmar about - but the thought that students would picket a Rabbi is absolutely disgusting.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #48 on:** November 28, 2007, 05:57:04 PM »

I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #49 on:** November 28, 2007, 10:17:02 PM »

Quote from: C.F. on November 28, 2007, 05:57:04 PM

I find this hard to believe. Ha Rav Kahane (zt"l) would say that one of history's hugest Nazi collaborators was a holy saint?

That's simply not the case, Chaimfan. And jdl4ever may be right about the "zt"l," I'm not sure. But if you don't believe me about the quote, here's the video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oguHBnL5UYc (that is Part One - it's a four part video, and I don't remember which part it's in)