I disagree with Chaim on Fundamental issues, but still support JTF

[newman]

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

[[/quote]

A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.

[OdKahaneChai]

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

[

A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
[/quote]
A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.

[newman]

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

[

A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.

A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
[/quote]

When it's an innocent rape victim facing that chance I say it is.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

[

A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.

A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
[/quote]
.1% is not relevant, the threat has to be imminent and obvious. There is something special that happens in  those .1% and the other 99.9% are fine

[cjd]

Looks like I'm the only person who agrees with Chaim then--so be it. I think rape is a worse crime than murder, myself. I would be willing to bet good money that the number of men in prison right now on false rape charges in America can be counted on half of one hand, if it's that high. It's hard enough to get a conviction for real rape when the suspect's semen is present and woman's vagina is obviously torn and she is bloody and bruised--it's vastly more common for slimeball attorneys to convince juries that the poor victim "wanted it".

As for all the guys here who think rape is no big deal and is being overly punished--I invite them to spend the night with Bubba in jail. 

I can't agree with you that rape is a worse crime than murder. The murder victims life is cut short what could be worse than that. In the case of rape their is always the chance that the victim could regain a normal life to some extent. I also can't agree that the people sent to jail on false charges in America  is able to be counted on one hand. I am sure the number goes into the thousands each year. G-d forbid a person was falsely accused of this crime the time, money and personal reputation lost is almost impossible to regain. If sent to jail chances are they would be stuck there for the duration of the sentence unless they were very wealthy. Rape is a serious crime and should be punished by a very long sentence however to expect people to be put to death is a bit unrealistic unless there were extenuating circumstances that warranted it.

[newman]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

[cjd]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

[OdKahaneChai]

Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?

With that logic, Women should never have children.  It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?

[

A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.

A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.

When it's an innocent rape victim facing that chance I say it is.
[/quote]
Well then I guess we just have to respectfully disagree here.

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

I will ask my Rav - but I'm pretty sure, with that high of a chance, then the baby would be considered a Rodef, and an abortion would be permissible.  But I'm not a Rabbi.

[nessuno]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

I agree.

[newman]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

I agree.

What about a 25% chance of death?

(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)

[jdl4ever]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

[newman]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

[cjd]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Exactly! It has to be 50% or more.

[newman]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Exactly! It has to be 50% or more.

Then I repeat:

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

[cjd]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.

[newman]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.

That's no answer.

I ask again (and read it properly):

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

[cjd]

It has to be over 50%.  I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.

That's no answer.

I ask again (and read it properly):

Over 50%?

So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???

That's nuts!

Who are you to make such a ruling?

It's not that I want to make a ruling however below 50 or even 40% the reason for getting an abortion becomes less for the health of the mother and more other reasons. In all honesty people getting this have to live with their actions if they can justify the percentages its all good for me. As I said two forms of abortion bother me late term and abortion as a form of contraception. For me I think abortion done correctly ( very early )is better that unwanted or uncared for children.

[Dr. Dan]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

if it were 50%, mother and father's choice.

[Dr. Dan]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

I agree.

What about a 25% chance of death?

(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)

25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.

[newman]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

I agree.

What about a 25% chance of death?

(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)

25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.

Only the patient's (mother's) wishes can be considered in the West. To depend on the wishes of a third party when somebody else's life is at risk violates every medical convention in the civilised world.

[Dr. Dan]

my personal controversy on abortion is what about mental health? What if the fetus is not viable and is missing one too many chromosomes and will be born terribly abnormal?

What if it were one of your daughters, Gd forbid.  Or your sister, Gd forbid?

Or what if it was you and your mother, Gd forbid, considered aborting you...or your own child that you decided to keep?

So stop eating your soup with a fork!  It's not a black and white issue...it takes a lot of thought and every circumstance is different. No one should just go and get abortions just for the hell of it...it requires tons of counciling by loved ones, by medical doctors, and spiritual religious people close with the family.  Abortions should be out of the hands of politicians..whether it is a religious right winged person or a liberal left winged person.  Bottom line, each and every fetus shoudl be seen like almost life and pretty much life...and great care needs to be taken on how such an unborn being shoudl be treated...The problem that we have in the media today is that they make it like the fetus isn't really life..and the thing is it is really life...sort of...so the decision of getting abortions should not be an easy decision...and shoudl be a very painful decision to make.  Furthermore, if we view fetuses like they are practically human beings sort of, and people develop a conscience about it, maybe more will act responsibly when it comes down to the making of fetuses...

It's not about making abortions illegal that will make society better. It's cleaning up our society to the point of viewing fetuses as if they were a type of life and working on changing the way people view sex and sexual relationships.

[Dr. Dan]

Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?

In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.

I agree.

What about a 25% chance of death?

(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)

25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.

Only the patient's (mother's) wishes can be considered in the West. To depend on the wishes of a third party when somebody else's life is at risk violates every medical convention in the civilised world.

Actually you're right..it shoudl be more the mother's choice when it is a life and death situation...not the father..my bad.

[newman]

You raise a whole new question.

What about a feotus that will be (no question) a hopelessly retrarded, mongoloid?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Newman, even though I personally don't enjoy the miracle of pregnancy, and seek to only adopt, and feel we are overpopulated, I do not advocate that nobody ever has kids.

That's the only logical way to solve forever the threat that 25% of pregnancies would end in death, which is so not true.

[newman]

Newman, even though I personally don't enjoy the miracle of pregnancy, and seek to only adopt, and feel we are overpopulated, I do not advocate that nobody ever has kids.

That's the only logical way to solve forever the threat that 25% of pregnancies would end in death, which is so not true.

You're missing the point. I advocate choice.

I used the example of a particular one-off instance where there was a 25% chance of death. It happens often, though 999 out of 1,000 pregnancies are trouble free.

If a woman wants to take that risk, that's her own affair. Just like you riding a motorcycle without a helmut........your choice.

But..............the point is nobody should be compelled to take a risk if they do not wish to.