Author Topic: Four sorts of Zionists (Read 9851 times)

Raulmarrio2000 · « **on:** January 04, 2008, 01:11:03 AM »

I have found many people who support Zionism for different reasons.
1- Jewish Zionists: They defend their nation and their land and love their people. They want to preserve Israelites by returning to EY and consoludating the Jewish State.

2- Righteous Getile Zionists: Many are Noahides, or even from other religions. They love Israel and the Jews and wish the best to them. In case they practise a non-Torah religion, they do not mix their beliefs with their support for Israel. They just love justice and think Israel is entitled to its land.

3- Non-Righteous Gentile Zionists: They may still have some prejudices against Jews, but support them just because Israel's victory is good for the rest of the world to stop Arab terrorism. They recognise the Jews' rights to live in peace in Israel and the Diaspora, but refuse to give up some prejudices.

4- Christian Zionists: They support Israel as a State because they think Jewish return to biblical land will bring Jesus' second coming. They don't hate the Jews as individuals but are still bitter because they reject Jesus. They do hate Judaism and Torah, and want to convert Jews to Christianity. In future they may become anti-Semites as they see their prophesies fail, and Jews remains faithfull to Torah, while Jesus does not return. They would even blame Jews for that.

Boeregeneraal · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2008, 01:13:08 AM »

your ideas on Christian Zionists are VERY wrong!!! This is not the things you want to be saying on this forum!

Ambiorix · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2008, 01:36:21 AM »

Good to know this RM2000

Rubystars · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2008, 01:40:44 AM »

I support Israel's right to exist and I have respect for Jews as a people, but I'm not Jewish and I believe in Christianity.

I don't think I really fit into your little categories.

Boeregeneraal · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2008, 01:42:53 AM »

Quote from: Rubystars on January 04, 2008, 01:40:44 AM

I support Israel's right to exist and I have respect for Jews as a people, but I'm not Jewish and I believe in Christianity.

I don't think I really fit into your little categories.

I agree, don't you also think his description of Christian Zionists are inappropriate?

Raulmarrio2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2008, 01:43:06 AM »

Quote from: Boeregeneraal on January 04, 2008, 01:13:08 AM

your ideas on Christian Zionists are VERY wrong!!! This is not the things you want to be saying on this forum!

I was speaking about "Christian Zionists" movement, which clearly wants to undermine Judaism, and all non-non Christian beliefs for gentiles also. I have nothing against a person who is Christian by religion, and at the same time Zionist by ideolgy!

If someone supports Israel sincerely just because they recognise the Jew's rights on Eretz Israel, and Jewish right to keep their hope in Redemption, that's good, no matter what his personal beliefs are.
If someone is "Zionist" just because he expects Israel's reborn will lead to Jews and the rest of Mankind becoming Christian, that's evil!

For example, I am Zonist because I love Jews and want the best for them, and also because I think a strong Israel is a victory for justice and freedom... that's ok.

Now, remember that I belive in Mr Gerizim....would you consider me a good peron if I were Zionist expecting Israel's reborn would lead to Jews accepting Gerzim? Surely not!!!!!! In that case I would be an hypocrite "Zionist". The same must apply to Christians!!!! No double standard!!!!!!!

aggressi0n · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2008, 05:43:46 AM »

Did I read that right?

Ultra Requete · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2008, 05:57:58 AM »

I support the Israel becouse this is the right thing to do. It's doesn't realy matter why you're zionist as long as you're sincere and honest.

Raulmarrio2000 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2008, 02:22:20 PM »

Quote from: Ultra Requete on January 04, 2008, 05:57:58 AM

I support the Israel becouse this is the right thing to do. It's doesn't realy matter why you're zionist as long as you're sincere and honest.

If someone is "Zionist" because he thinks Zionism will fullfill a prophesy he has in mind and hopes Jews will give up Torah for another religion, he's not a real Zionist. And even worse, he may become an anti-Semite when he sees the prophesy failed!!!!
Just like Luther, he was very "fond" of Jews, because he thought they would join his cult and help him to combat Catholics...... when he saw that Jews remained Jewish, he called for anihilation!!!!!!!!
Only Jews and pure Noahides can be honest religious Zionists. Other Gentiles can be honest secular Zionists.

kellymaureen · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2008, 02:27:44 PM »

Im non religious, but I dont fit into 3, NOT at all.

Raulmarrio2000 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2008, 03:15:28 PM »

Quote from: kellymaureen on January 04, 2008, 02:27:44 PM

Im non religious, but I dont fit into 3, NOT at all.

You fit into 2. When I said Noahides or even from other religions, I also meant those of no religion. In fact most non-religious also do the seven mitzvot or have some similar moral values.

Ultra Requete · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2008, 03:27:23 PM »

Quote from: kellymaureen on January 04, 2008, 02:27:44 PM

Im non religious, but I dont fit into 3, NOT at all.

I fit partly in 1 and also into 2,3,4

1) they They want to preserve Israelites by returning them to EY and consoludating the Jewish State. check
2) They just love justice and think Israel is entitled to its land check
3) support them because Israel's victory is good for the rest of the world to stop Arab terrorism. They recognise the Jews' rights to live in peace in Israel and the Diaspora. check
4) Some wanabie Samaritan won't teach me about christian Zionism or judaism.

q_q_ · « **Reply #12 on:** January 05, 2008, 10:01:51 PM »

Quote from: Raulmarrio2000 on January 04, 2008, 01:11:03 AM

4- Christian Zionists: They support Israel as a State because they think Jewish return to biblical land will bring Jesus' second coming. They don't hate the Jews as individuals but are still bitter because they reject Jesus. They do hate Judaism and Torah, and want to convert Jews to Christianity. In future they may become anti-Semites as they see their prophesies fail, and Jews remains faithfull to Torah, while Jesus does not return. They would even blame Jews for that.

that is just outrageous and stupid. Given what JTF stands for, it is the least likely place to find anybody in that category . I suggest you give a little thought to what JTF stands for.. And then give a little thought before posting..

KansasJew · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2008, 01:25:40 PM »

It is interesting that Christians and Jews can work together on some subjects. However due to our Backgrounds and Theologies. There are some subjects or words that may offend each group. That is why it is difficult to work in a cohesive manner on some subjects. Let each of us speak and be smart and know when to pick our "battles"

q_q_ · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2008, 02:13:15 AM »

From what I remember, Raul is a noachide. He is a gentile that believes in judaism. So he is not jewish or christian.

decimos · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2008, 02:38:04 PM »

i wonder why a xtian would be your friend? heres why

"hay buddy,i have some"good news" for you,your sages lied to you, your scripture is invalid, no salvation can be got thru works,now yoshke is your saviour he shed his blood for attonement{torah contridiction}g-d walked on earth{g-d is not a man that he might lie}and gave up his life so that you may live in the new covenant of grace"-----------thats why he is your friend...

ask them this what does hashem say? for this is written. malachi 4-4.

q_q_ · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2008, 05:07:05 PM »

Quote from: decimos on January 13, 2008, 02:38:04 PM

i wonder why a xtian would be your friend? heres why

"hay buddy,i have some"good news" for you,your sages lied to you, your scripture is invalid, no salvation can be got thru works,now yoshke is your saviour he shed his blood for attonement{torah contridiction}g-d walked on earth{g-d is not a man that he might lie}and gave up his life so that you may live in the new covenant of grace"-----------thats why he is your friend...

ask them this what does hashem say? for this is written. malachi 4-4.

If you want to argue with christians, there are enough christian missionaries around that you can argue with.. But JTF is not the place for it.

So grow up and stop identifying yourself with that pedophile Yigal Amir (3 or 4 different sources say police records say he is). A pedophile who did not even kill rabin - infact even his wife Larissa, thinks he didn't since seeing the evidence. A twit that worked for or with Avishai Raviv, the agent whose job it is to make religious jews look bad.. Infact, yigal amir used to work in israeli intelligence himself..

Infact, it wouldn't suprise me if you were an agent provocateur!!!!!

Tzvi Ben Roshel1 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2008, 05:15:37 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on January 14, 2008, 05:07:05 PM

Quote from: decimos on January 13, 2008, 02:38:04 PM
i wonder why a xtian would be your friend? heres why

"hay buddy,i have some"good news" for you,your sages lied to you, your scripture is invalid, no salvation can be got thru works,now yoshke is your saviour he shed his blood for attonement{torah contridiction}g-d walked on earth{g-d is not a man that he might lie}and gave up his life so that you may live in the new covenant of grace"-----------thats why he is your friend...

ask them this what does hashem say? for this is written. malachi 4-4.

If you want to argue with christians, there are enough christian missionaries around that you can argue with.. But JTF is not the place for it.

So grow up and stop identifying yourself with that pedophile Yigal Amir (3 or 4 different sources say police records say he is). A pedophile who did not even kill rabin - infact even his wife Larissa, thinks he didn't since seeing the evidence. A twit that worked for or with Avishai Raviv, the agent whose job it is to make religious jews look bad.. Infact, yigal amir used to work in israeli intelligence himself..

Infact, it wouldn't suprise me if you were an agent provocateur!!!!!

Shut up. You are spreading Evil not true lies against a great Jewish man. The police and Israeli system bash right-wing, Religious Jews day and night, shame on anyone who believes the eruv rav, worst enemies of the Jews.

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2008, 07:00:15 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on January 14, 2008, 05:07:05 PM

Quote from: decimos on January 13, 2008, 02:38:04 PM
i wonder why a xtian would be your friend? heres why

"hay buddy,i have some"good news" for you,your sages lied to you, your scripture is invalid, no salvation can be got thru works,now yoshke is your saviour he shed his blood for attonement{torah contridiction}g-d walked on earth{g-d is not a man that he might lie}and gave up his life so that you may live in the new covenant of grace"-----------thats why he is your friend...

ask them this what does hashem say? for this is written. malachi 4-4.

If you want to argue with christians, there are enough christian missionaries around that you can argue with.. But JTF is not the place for it.

So grow up and stop identifying yourself with that pedophile Yigal Amir (3 or 4 different sources say police records say he is). A pedophile who did not even kill rabin - infact even his wife Larissa, thinks he didn't since seeing the evidence. A twit that worked for or with Avishai Raviv, the agent whose job it is to make religious jews look bad.. Infact, yigal amir used to work in israeli intelligence himself..

Infact, it wouldn't suprise me if you were an agent provocateur!!!!!

I don't think I've ever seen so much slander in a single post.

q_q_ · « **Reply #19 on:** January 15, 2008, 02:19:24 PM »

It is all a question of whose ox is being gored.

Slander ariel sharon or olmert or any other evil animal, and people here have no problem with that. And rightly so.

Slander yigal amir, and people here don't like it.

Where we differ, is that I think yigal amir is slime. And you don't.

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #20 on:** January 15, 2008, 03:49:12 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on January 15, 2008, 02:19:24 PM

It is all a question of whose ox is being gored.

Slander ariel sharon or olmert or any other evil animal, and people here have no problem with that. And rightly so.

Slander yigal amir, and people here don't like it.

Where we differ, is that I think yigal amir is slime. And you don't.

But how could you say that? Yigal Amir is a hero of the Jewish people.

q_q_ · « **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:57:08 AM »

the rabin assassination is not a simple story of a religious jew that shot and killed the evil leader.

Putting aside the different sources (barry chamish, david rutstein, josh backon, maybe natan gefen) that speak of police records that he is a pedophile. You have the fact that none of the rabin`s wounds could have been done by Yigal Amir. You have yigal amir after the assassination talking of a conspiracy. You have him after the murder saying "I`ve done my job now you do yours". You have him in avishai raviv`s organisation "organisation of jewish warriors", which had about 3 members. You Carmi Gillon head of the GSS(shabak) before the assassination, describing the murderer - sephardi, curly hair, bar ilan university, and the description matched Yigal Amir exactly. He was part of a conspiracy against religious jews, and one can suspect that he was not some naiive twit. Unless one is some naiive twit. (yigal amir was infact a trainee lawyer. You bet he knew what was going on. He even spoke about it). And if you think he changed the bullets for real ones, then he is even more of an idiot, because he must have missed completely. Considering that all the wounds could not have been inflicted by him.. And if he is such a hero, what was he known for before that.. He was planted there. And he was easy to blackmail because of his record as a pedophile, ideal for use by the shabak..

It is not like Baruch Goldstein zl hyd, who was known to be a good guy..

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2008, 07:11:36 PM »

Quote from: q_q_ on January 16, 2008, 02:57:08 AM

the rabin assassination is not a simple story of a religious jew that shot and killed the evil leader.

Putting aside the different sources (barry chamish, david rutstein, josh backon, maybe natan gefen) that speak of police records that he is a pedophile. You have the fact that none of the rabin`s wounds could have been done by Yigal Amir. You have yigal amir after the assassination talking of a conspiracy. You have him after the murder saying "I`ve done my job now you do yours". You have him in avishai raviv`s organisation "organisation of jewish warriors", which had about 3 members. You Carmi Gillon head of the GSS(shabak) before the assassination, describing the murderer - Sefaradi, curly hair, bar ilan university, and the description matched Yigal Amir exactly. He was part of a conspiracy against religious jews, and one can suspect that he was not some naiive twit. Unless one is some naiive twit. (yigal amir was infact a trainee lawyer. You bet he knew what was going on. He even spoke about it). And if you think he changed the bullets for real ones, then he is even more of an idiot, because he must have missed completely. Considering that all the wounds could not have been inflicted by him.. And if he is such a hero, what was he known for before that.. He was planted there. And he was easy to blackmail because of his record as a pedophile, ideal for use by the shabak..

You sound like Chamish...

q_q_ · « **Reply #23 on:** January 17, 2008, 05:35:23 AM »

Or Rabin`s daughter - dalia rabin, who also believes in a conspiracy.
Or Yuval Rabin, who said there will be more chamishim(barry chamish`s surname in plural), and people should read his book.
Or Yigal Amir`s wife Larissa Amir, who believes in a conspiracy as described by Natan Gefen. (chamish`s book is too messy for her. And she probably has not seen his video with its video evidence and commentary / lecture.).

The difference between Natan Gefen`s version and Chamish`s version is minor. Both agree yigal amir did not kill him, israeli intelligence did, and covered it up.

I vaguely recall that Chaim thinks it was a conspiracy too, that yigal amir changed blank bullets for real ones. I don`t know how that theory can be defended in light of the medical records obtained by Natan Gefen and sent around by Barry Chamish.

JTF has a bone to pick with Chamish, because Chamish is adamant that Itamar Ben Gvir is a Shabak provacateur.
I recall that at one point, Chaim said the idea that IBGV is shabak is ridiculous.. Then he was double crossed by Baruch Marzel (and IGBV?), and when asked again, he said maybe IBGV is shabak, it`s possible. Then IBGV decided to join the organisation and answer questions, and so he is in the good books again. I don`t know if IBGV is still doing it, but I hope he is not the moderator, otherwise he may have the IPs of members in israel. (They should browse with Tor(the onion router). To mask their ip with an anonymous one. But there is some setting one should choose with tor, otherwise I read that somebody in one place could download child porn and police could come knocking on your door - that is a techie issue, not a conspiracy! ).

MassuhDGoodName · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2008, 11:11:33 AM »

All of you are wrong!

Zionist: A Zionist is one Jew, who extorts money from a second Jew, in order to send a third Jew to live in Israel!