Should I move to Israel? Am I even eligible?

[Dr. Dan]

I would honestly consider being an Israeli citizen if I don't have to convert.  My grandfather's surname is Hebrew, I am part Hebrew and entitled to the land of my ancestors. 

you have to be Jewish....

Not saying you are this way, but i'll give an example... A Jew who worships idols might still by blood be a Jew, but really is an idol worshipper.

Halakhically you aren't Jewish because it is your paternal grandfather...so either way, you need to convert orsomething like that.

[Ehud]

I would honestly consider being an Israeli citizen if I don't have to convert.  My grandfather's surname is Hebrew, I am part Hebrew and entitled to the land of my ancestors. 

Look, I don't think you should take it up with us, we're not the authority that has the power to decide the issue.  If you would like to become an Israeli citizen, then contact an aliyah organization and see if you're qualified or what you need to do to become qualified.  Nothing we tell you is going to definitively matter anyway. 

[genteelgentile]

Just from reading your posts, Khazan, you don't want IT bad enough.  Converting is probably not the path you should take.

[Khazan]

I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal  Jews immigrating to Israel.  I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews. 

However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions.  While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day.  Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far. 

I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah.  I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Nice one Mills.
 And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).

[JTFFan]

Nice one Mills.
 And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).

I agree, he doesn't sound really righteous enough to move to Israel

[Dr. Dan]

I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal  Jews immigrating to Israel.  I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews. 

However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions.  While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day.  Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far. 

I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah.  I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.

Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal  Jews immigrating to Israel.  I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews. 

However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions.  While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day.  Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far. 

I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah.  I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.

Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.

No its not the same, first of all who says and established that the state of Israel is 100% legit? (that's still a big question), but in the other hand the Torah is 100% legit and everlasting, and that's what Jews own 100% loyalty to.  + their are other issues of why Religious dont join and want to join the army (including some Halahic issues, and what goes on in the army, ex- mixing men and women).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Im not preaching hatred for all secular, nor do I have hatred agains't them, but do agains't their actions. But what the secular should do is to learn about Judasim, better in the galut, built themselves up in spirituality and then make it to Israel, etc. Going to Israel, and becomming a sinner of zion only brings more tragedy and the influence of the empty culture into Israel.

[Khazan]

Nice one Mills.
 And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).

Really?  Authorities prefer the non-Halacha 'Jews' over Halacha Jews?  Why is that?  Because they are most likely secular? 

I didn't say I looked down on the Talmud, what I did say was I thought one of their commentaries is dated and is exactly what it is, a commentary, some rabbi's opinion, and is not mentioned in the Torah. 

Mills, while I may not be a Jew in your eyes, I am a Jew in the eyes of the many Christians I am around, some of which are Antisemitic, who call me 'kike' in front of my face and have stabbed my back.  I would also have been a Jew in Hitler's eyes.  For a people who have experienced much persecution for thousdands of years, this law seeks to create division within the Jewish community rather than unifying it, which is why I think modern Judaism should evolve, as Israel has done with its amending the Law of Return.  It's time for religious persons, which I'm assuming includes yourself, to get out of the dark ages and back to the 21st century. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

knazan, watch yourself- anyway hitler isn't the chief Rabbi to decide who is a Jew and who isn't. You supposidly being persecuted has nothing to do with your validity of being a Jew or not. So according to this way of thinking would a Jew who is loved by gentiles make him loose his Jewishness just becuase he is liked?
 Being hated or loved for something doesn't change the law of what one really is, and who made hitler the decider of Jewish law?
 + this shows a lot of the mentality of many of the non-observent, who only see their "Jewishness" as being one who is persecuted and hated by others, and also by blood and racial things , just like the nazis. On the other hand when Jews connect to their life-line the Torah all these other things are just stupidity, etc, and also one of the reasons of why G-d doesnt have to send persecution in order to get Jews in line.

[Khazan]

I think your analogy is very flawed.  It's not about being liked, it's about a commentary on how Jewish identity comes from the mother's side, which from what I know is purely a commentary made ages ago.  What a sight that would have been, some Rabbi in a concentration camp trying to tell Nazis that some of the people there actually aren't Jews because they aren't maternal Jews!  The Nazis would have laughed themselves to death.

A bitter irony isn't it?  Too Jewish for the Christians/pagans/Nazis, yet not Jewish enough for the Jews.  I even told them that and that didn't change anything. 

Maybe I am ignorant of this law, if you could perhaps elaborate on it.

[Dr. Dan]

I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal  Jews immigrating to Israel.  I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews. 

However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions.  While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day.  Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far. 

I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah.  I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.

Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.

No its not the same, first of all who says and established that the state of Israel is 100% legit? (that's still a big question), but in the other hand the Torah is 100% legit and everlasting, and that's what Jews own 100% loyalty to.  + their are other issues of why Religious dont join and want to join the army (including some Halahic issues, and what goes on in the army, ex- mixing men and women).

Let me clarify myself. There are four types of Jews living in Israel. Religious Zionist, Secular Zionist, Relgious anti-zionist, and Secular anti-Zionist.  the religious ones i was referring to were the anti-zionist...studying torah all day long and doing nothing else is just as unhealthy as eating broccoli and nothing else all day long. 

[Dr. Dan]

I guess I ask to get a consensus on how I the Orthodoxy views non observant or non-maternal  Jews immigrating to Israel.  I guess Mills answered this, there's already many non-observant Jews. 

However, consider that many of the Haredi and other very religious Jews, however religious they may be, do not serve in the IDF and get exemptions.  While they may be "more religious" I think non observant or non-maternal 'Jews' who do serve in the military do far more to benefit the state of Israel than those pretentious religious Jews who have their noses glued to the Talmud all day.  Sure, religion is important, but it can only get you so far. 

I also brought this up because I wonder where this law came about with the Jewish mother, surely it is a commentary, and not in the Torah.  I think it's sad modern Judaism hasn't evolved passed commentaries made in the dark ages, especially given the Nazi's definition of Jew--although the state of Israel has amended its law of return to be based on the Nazi definition of who is a Jew, to provide a haven for those who may face Antisemitism.

Wait a second..it's bad both ways...When religious Jews living in Israel do nothing to defend the state or benefit the state...and when secular Jews single handedly try to destroy Judaism and the Jewish state.

So I guess he should move to Israel then and join the pork eating liberals then.
 
I, being a religious person, feel that while secular Jews may seem to contribute "more" they have FAILED big time at leading Israel to the path of righteousness. In terms of gains, we can look at it the materialistic way, or the spiritual way. I'm sure liberals "contribute" materials, but who contributes to Israel more spirituality, and what pleases G-d more? material gains or spiritual gains?

Again you have to love your fellow Jews and love Israel whether you are an observant Jew or not to succeed. yes, it is better to be observant...but i would rather have secular zionists protecting me than haredi anti zionists if i were to live in Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

Nice one Mills.
 And khazan- If you really want to get into Israel, it would be easy for you and actually your the type that the authorities want. 1- looks down upon the Talmud, regarding it as middle aged and outdated, 2- claiming that one of your grandparents were Jewish (by blood, and not halahically).

Really?  Authorities prefer the non-Halacha 'Jews' over Halacha Jews?  Why is that?  Because they are most likely secular? 

I didn't say I looked down on the Talmud, what I did say was I thought one of their commentaries is dated and is exactly what it is, a commentary, some rabbi's opinion, and is not mentioned in the Torah. 

Mills, while I may not be a Jew in your eyes, I am a Jew in the eyes of the many Christians I am around, some of which are Antisemitic, who call me 'kike' in front of my face and have stabbed my back.  I would also have been a Jew in Hitler's eyes.  For a people who have experienced much persecution for thousdands of years, this law seeks to create division within the Jewish community rather than unifying it, which is why I think modern Judaism should evolve, as Israel has done with its amending the Law of Return.  It's time for religious persons, which I'm assuming includes yourself, to get out of the dark ages and back to the 21st century. 

Evil people cannot dictate what a Jew is...halakhically, you're not Jewish and if you wanted to become one, you should see an Orthodox Rabbi.  Personally, Im' not Orthodox.  Howver i believe they practice a more authentic Judaism than the other movements.

[Khazan]

Killing Israel spiritually?  Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl.  I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel. 

[Dr. Dan]

I think your analogy is very flawed.  It's not about being liked, it's about a commentary on how Jewish identity comes from the mother's side, which from what I know is purely a commentary made ages ago.  What a sight that would have been, some Rabbi in a concentration camp trying to tell Nazis that some of the people there actually aren't Jews because they aren't maternal Jews!  The Nazis would have laughed themselves to death.

A bitter irony isn't it?  Too Jewish for the Christians/pagans/Nazis, yet not Jewish enough for the Jews.  I even told them that and that didn't change anything. 

Maybe I am ignorant of this law, if you could perhaps elaborate on it.

Quit being an ignoramous.  Back in the day, when Jewish women were raped by their enemies, and they kept the children, nobody knew who the father was.  Therefore, the child was what religion the mother was..It's that simple!  If you want to be considered a Jew halakhically, don't be a lazy bum! Go to an Orthodox rabbi and ask for his help!

[Dr. Dan]

Killing Israel spiritually?  Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl.  I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel. 

For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation.  That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Killing Israel spiritually?  Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl.  I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel. 

For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation.  That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..

 No we dont need secularists to be secular, and anyway their are more categories that you didnt mention.(from previous posts) - what about just religious and not zionists?  (i g2g, later will follow).

[Dr. Dan]

Oh yes, Khazan, Bringing up nazis to clarify your point on who's Jewish or not really helps!

So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew?
That would be horrible because then people like you, who have no respect for the Talmud and don't give a penny for Kosher, would be Jews. And having a lot more Jews like that would be detrimental and extremely worrisome !

And its obvious that you only see the Talmud as "made up".

Sorry but whether you think its made up or not, you are still not a Jew.

And Dr. Dan, I know what you mean. I prefer Haredim more than secular Jews, but I am religious and not everyone will be as me. Nevertheless, I know you love Israel too.  But I honestly think that secular Jews will do more harm to Israel in the long run than religious zionist.

And to Yacov's comment...would I LOVE to join the Hilltop Youth! One day all Israel will be righteous as it should be, that is destiny.

Oh teh best Israelis are the Religious Zionists...I totally agree they shoudl be the ones ruling Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

Killing Israel spiritually?  Please...if we let the Haredi run the show in Israel, it would be life just as it was on the Shtetl.  I've said religion is important, but the contributions of secular Jews is greatly helping Israel. 

For SOME of us...everything in moderation...Religious observance in moderation;Secular life in moderation.  That's not to say that everyone should be moderate. We need haredi to be haredi and we need secularists to be secularists...but everyone in the middle who is struggling between the two need to understand...EVERYTHING in moderation..

 No we dont need secularists to be secular, and anyway their are more categories that you didnt mention.(from previous posts) - what about just religious and not zionists?  (i g2g, later will follow).

I think that when a Jew lives in Israel, he/she should help out the country in which he/she lives in...religious or not.

now as far as israel being a Jewish state.  I'll reword it..israel is the only country whihc is supposed to represent the Jews.  But a State government which practices Judaism?  Not very well.  A state which is too nice to the very enemies which want to destroy her? Yes.  A state which hates Torah and Talmud?  It depends on which individual you are talking to. 

[JTFFan]

Oh yes, Khazan, Bringing up nazis to clarify your point on who's Jewish or not really helps!

So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew?
That would be horrible because then people like you, who have no respect for the Talmud and don't give a penny for Kosher, would be Jews. And having a lot more Jews like that would be detrimental and extremely worrisome !

And its obvious that you only see the Talmud as "made up".

Sorry but whether you think its made up or not, you are still not a Jew.

And Dr. Dan, I know what you mean. I prefer Haredim more than secular Jews, but I am religious and not everyone will be as me. Nevertheless, I know you love Israel too.  But I honestly think that secular Jews will do more harm to Israel in the long run than religious zionist.

And to Yacov's comment...would I LOVE to join the Hilltop Youth! One day all Israel will be righteous as it should be, that is destiny.

Oh teh best Israelis are the Religious Zionists...I totally agree they shoudl be the ones ruling Israel.

OK, agreed. This is what I want. Religious Zionist like Chaim.

 

[Khazan]

"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "

And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's.  In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud. 

Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law.  That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew. 

Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument.  G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud.  What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined.  Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish?  Doesn't that create some kind of problem? 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "

And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's.  In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud. 

Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law.  That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew. 

Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument.  G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud.  What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined.  Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish?  Doesn't that create some kind of problem? 

Yes Moses didnt write everything down in the Torah, it was given over orally. Every Law is only understood orally, and not straight from the 5 books of Moses. Before the Talmud, they would remember it orally and also the students would have their own notes. Then due to the weaker generations it had to be written down so that it wouldn't be forgotten. 

[Dr. Dan]

"So, by your logic, Jews should follow nazi ideology on who should be a Jew? "

And Israel has, as the Law of Return was amended in the 70's.  In a way, this is an 'unwritten' amendment to the Talmud. 

Look, I think the talmud is an interesting work, but it is, correct me if I am wrong, codified commentaries on the Law.  That's just some old rabbi's opinion on who is a Jew. 

Now, say I'm wrong for the sake of argument.  G-d orally told moses you're only Jewish if your mother is Jewish, MOses for some reason didn't write it down explicitly, then thousands of years later it gets written down in the Talmud.  What about being part of the tribes of Israel, as the tribe is paternally determined.  Would someone with a Jewish father be considered of the tribe then albeit the mother not being Jewish?  Doesn't that create some kind of problem? 

Believe this "old" rabbis know a lot more about everything than you and I combined.  I bet you haven't even read a single word from the Talmud!