Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
Should Jews Participate In Senior Proms?
Nic Brookes:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 30, 2008, 04:54:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 30, 2008, 04:50:11 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 30, 2008, 04:39:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 30, 2008, 12:47:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 29, 2008, 06:22:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 29, 2008, 05:58:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 29, 2008, 05:51:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 29, 2008, 05:45:41 PM ---
--- Quote ---Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?
--- End quote ---
In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?
--- End quote ---
You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?
There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.
--- End quote ---
This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.
--- End quote ---
Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.
--- End quote ---
I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.
Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?
--- End quote ---
Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.
When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.
--- End quote ---
OK, thanks for clearing that up :)
Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?
--- End quote ---
It is immodest because men are attracted to women and when men touch a woman, he can feel a sexual feeling if the woman is attractive. It's even worse because it can lead to more.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for that answer, Yacov. This is something about which I know very little. How is it bad that people feel sexual feelings? Surely being attracted to someone is SUPPOSED to lead to more, such as getting to know them and marriage.
Sarah:
--- Quote from: Just Erica on January 30, 2008, 04:57:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 30, 2008, 04:54:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 30, 2008, 04:50:11 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 30, 2008, 04:39:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 30, 2008, 12:47:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 29, 2008, 06:22:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 29, 2008, 05:58:09 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 29, 2008, 05:51:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: Nic Brookes on January 29, 2008, 05:45:41 PM ---
--- Quote ---Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?
--- End quote ---
In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?
--- End quote ---
You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?
There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.
--- End quote ---
This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.
--- End quote ---
Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.
--- End quote ---
I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.
Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?
--- End quote ---
Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.
When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.
--- End quote ---
OK, thanks for clearing that up :)
Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?
--- End quote ---
It is immodest because men are attracted to women and when men touch a woman, he can feel a sexual feeling if the woman is attractive. It's even worse because it can lead to more.
--- End quote ---
That's not true for everyone, Yacov.
--- End quote ---
Also, you said its not true for everyone. Even if it isn't it would be for some and you can't have a kind of ruling for one person and not for another.
abdithefaithful:
With the amount of wrongful temptation currently corrupting the minds of all youth, it might possibly be a good idea if none of them attended their "prom", but instead stayed at home and spent some time contemplating the differences between good and evil. And the money that they'll save by NOT going to their prom can be put into a responsible savings program that has the ability to mature as they mature, so in the long run it will be to their best benefit--- Sure, my ideas might seem a bit "strict" and/or "conservative" to some reading these sacred message board pages, but let's get one thing perfectly clear and out in the open---We are fighting a "war of morality"--- in order for our youth to have any chance whatsoever of "winning" this "war", they must buckle down and make the choices that don't necessarily offer them the "instant gratification" that they might be recklessly seeking, but it will afford them the chance to make the best of their lives for the "long term"... Any questions?...
Just Erica:
--- Quote from: There Are No 'Israeli' Arabs on January 30, 2008, 05:46:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dominater96 on January 29, 2008, 11:24:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 29, 2008, 07:14:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: Dominater96 on January 29, 2008, 07:01:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on January 28, 2008, 06:02:25 PM ---I don't think male-female interdancing is prohibited for Gentiles so this question is strictly for Jews.
I think they should be banned and I'm very grateful I never went to the one my high school had. I was never into that nonsense even when I did believe in male-female interdancing. I knew I'm Jewish and that "proms" are not a Jewish thing.
--- End quote ---
Why do u keep wanting to ban things? Serriously grow up. It looks like u want to infringe on alot of our civil liberties, and be "big brother"
--- End quote ---
Aren't you a religious Jew? Would Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef whom you love so much approve of immodest male-female relations?
--- End quote ---
Yes I am a religious Jew. But I wont force religion on someone by banning something that they want to do. Ill tell them its wrong, but if they dont listen I wont stop them. Kiruv 101, dont force anything on anyone, let them realize with time what is wrong and right. And I dont understand, are you a fully practicing Jew? If you arent, then how would you like it if I came to your home on Shabbat and took your Television away, or something that you want to do on Shabbat but is Asur? You explain clearly why it is Asur, then if they dont want to do it you let it go, and slowly, gradually, hopefully they will become Jewish, through understanding, and philosophy. This is a problem that I have with some of the Kiruv Yeshivot, the ones that take troubled kids after high school. They either force it on the kid and he follows the rules, but then when he leaves Yeshiva after a year he is back to how he was before. Judaism isnt a dictatorship, or a cult. We dont ban things, let people not do them on their own. It may take time and understanding, but eventually they will realize the truth. And it isnt a cult either. We dont brainwash someone to become religious, he should realize it eventully no matter how long it takes. Rambam writes that you have to keep on trying to help you fellow Jew become more observant through talking nicely, and soft to him, not by yelling at him and embarrasing him.
--- End quote ---
I fully agree with this.
--- End quote ---
I agree with this also, from a Christian aspect.
MassuhDGoodName:
How is the ban to be enforced?
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