Should Jews Participate In Senior Proms?

[Nic Brookes]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.

When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?

It is immodest because men are attracted to women and when men touch a woman, he can feel a sexual feeling if the woman is attractive. It's even worse because it can lead to more.

Thank you for that answer, Yacov. This is something about which I know very little. How is it bad that people feel sexual feelings? Surely being attracted to someone is SUPPOSED to lead to more, such as getting to know them and marriage.

[Sarah]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.

When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?

It is immodest because men are attracted to women and when men touch a woman, he can feel a sexual feeling if the woman is attractive. It's even worse because it can lead to more.

That's not true for everyone, Yacov.

Also, you said its not true for everyone. Even if it isn't it would be for some and you can't have a kind of ruling for one person and not for another.

[abdithefaithful]

With the amount of wrongful temptation currently corrupting the minds of all youth, it might possibly be a good idea if none of them attended their "prom", but instead stayed at home and spent some time contemplating the differences between good and evil. And the money that they'll save by NOT going to their prom can be put into a responsible savings program that has the ability to mature as they mature, so in the long run it will be to their best benefit--- Sure, my ideas might seem a bit "strict" and/or "conservative" to some reading these sacred message board pages, but let's get one thing perfectly clear and out in the open---We are fighting a "war of morality"--- in order for our youth to have any chance whatsoever of "winning" this "war", they must buckle down and make the choices that don't necessarily offer them the "instant gratification" that they might be recklessly seeking, but it will afford them the chance to make the best of their lives for the "long term"... Any questions?...

[Just Erica]

I don't think male-female interdancing is prohibited for Gentiles so this question is strictly for Jews.

I think they should be banned and I'm very grateful I never went to the one my high school had. I was never into that nonsense even when I did believe in male-female interdancing. I knew I'm Jewish and that "proms" are not a Jewish thing.

Why do u keep wanting to ban things? Serriously grow up. It looks like u want to infringe on alot of our civil liberties, and be "big brother"

Aren't you a religious Jew? Would Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef whom you love so much approve of immodest male-female relations?

Yes I am a religious Jew. But I wont force religion on someone by banning something that they want to do. Ill tell them its wrong, but if they dont listen I wont stop them. Kiruv 101, dont force anything on anyone, let them realize with time what is wrong and right. And I dont understand, are you a fully practicing Jew? If you arent, then how would you like it if I came to your home on Shabbat and took your Television away, or something that you want to do on Shabbat but is Asur? You explain clearly why it is Asur, then if they dont want to do it you let it go, and slowly, gradually, hopefully they will become Jewish, through understanding, and philosophy. This is a problem that I have with some of the Kiruv Yeshivot, the ones that take troubled kids after high school. They either force it on the kid and he follows the rules, but then when he leaves Yeshiva after a year he is back to how he was before. Judaism isnt a dictatorship, or a cult. We dont ban things, let people not do them on their own. It may take time and understanding, but eventually they will realize the truth. And it isnt a cult either. We dont brainwash someone to become religious, he should realize it eventully no matter how long it takes. Rambam writes that you have to keep on trying to help you fellow Jew become more observant through talking nicely, and soft to him, not by yelling at him and embarrasing him.

I fully agree with this.

I agree with this also, from a Christian aspect.

[MassuhDGoodName]

How is the ban to be enforced?

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

How is the ban to be enforced?

Head collars, if they stand to close to each other, it explodes. 

[Lisa]

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Speaking of ballet, back in Iran, one of my aunts used to take ballet for a number of years.  She was very beautiful and quite good at it. And she even danced on television.  However, being that my family is Jewish, my grandfather and uncles did not want her getting noticed by the Muslims.  They did not believe it was proper for her to dance on stage in skimpy tutu.  They didn't want to have to say no to a Muslim who might have wanted to marry my aunt.  So they told her to stop with the ballet and she did. 

Yes I am a religious Jew. But I wont force religion on someone by banning something that they want to do. Ill tell them its wrong, but if they dont listen I wont stop them. Kiruv 101, dont force anything on anyone, let them realize with time what is wrong and right. And I dont understand, are you a fully practicing Jew? If you arent, then how would you like it if I came to your home on Shabbat and took your Television away, or something that you want to do on Shabbat but is Asur? You explain clearly why it is Asur, then if they dont want to do it you let it go, and slowly, gradually, hopefully they will become Jewish, through understanding, and philosophy. This is a problem that I have with some of the Kiruv Yeshivot, the ones that take troubled kids after high school. They either force it on the kid and he follows the rules, but then when he leaves Yeshiva after a year he is back to how he was before. Judaism isnt a dictatorship, or a cult. We dont ban things, let people not do them on their own. It may take time and understanding, but eventually they will realize the truth. And it isnt a cult either. We dont brainwash someone to become religious, he should realize it eventully no matter how long it takes. Rambam writes that you have to keep on trying to help you fellow Jew become more observant through talking nicely, and soft to him, not by yelling at him and embarrasing him.

In this case, I agree 100% with with Dominater96.  The best thing Jews can do is to lead by example. 

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Speaking of ballet, back in Iran, one of my aunts used to take ballet for a number of years.  She was very beautiful and quite good at it. And she even danced on television.  However, being that my family is Jewish, my grandfather and uncles did not want her getting noticed by the Muslims.  They did not believe it was proper for her to dance on stage in skimpy tutu.  They didn't want to have to say no to a Muslim who might have wanted to marry my aunt.  So they told her to stop with the ballet and she did. 

She couldn't dance there now, its against the law.

[shimon]

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Yes it is wrong. It's not my opinion but Jewish Law. The reason that it is wrong is because you can see under the female dancers' skirts and because the skirts are short. Technically if it was all male dancers, both men and women could watch it but that's just gay. I personally think ballet in general is gay anyway so it is no big loss not to see it.

haha . good one yakov

[Dr. Dan]

I used to think similar to Yaacov when I was maybe 18-19 years old.

So you didn't go to the prom when you were 18?

I did go to the prom...but it wasn't in a limo or anythign fancy shmancy..I didn't kiss girls or hook up with them..I didn't do drugs...nor ever will..I never drank...

But I looked down on anyone that had a good time and didn't focus on their studies and on their future.  I made my personal life a little more puritanical...And I look back and I regret that I didn't loosen up..BUT...at the same time, am very happy that I didn't go hooking up wtih random girls and smoke and drink etc etc. I'm glad that I focused on my studies...and generally people who get to know me like what I'm made out of and not a total degenerate loser like the rest of the people who smoked pot in my highschool.

Who did you go with?

Did you have girlfriends?

My best friend from USY...ANd no, I wasn't even allowed to have any girlfriends at the age of 17...  I didn't have my first real girlfriend until i was 25!

[Dr. Dan]

Should senior "proms" be banned for Jews?

In a word, no. There is no obligation for Jews at these proms to dance or dress immodestly, what is the problem with Jews attending social events and having a good time?

You are not Jewish. Who gave you the authority to decide Jewish Law?

There is nothing wrong with attending social events. The problem is that men and women dancing together is immodest, period. Men aren't even supposed to see women dancing among women because it is immodest to see the form of a woman dancing. That is why the mechitza at a Jewish wedding is not made so you can see through it but the mechitza in a synagogue is made with wholes where the women can look across and see the men praying. The second is fine as long as the men don't stare at the women through the wholes. It's just meant to keep a separation between the genders.

This is my Gentile point of view, your question by using the word "Should" is implying that you are inviting all points of view, and this is mine. I simply can't believe that dancing is immodest! Is going to watch the ballet forbidden? Social events are, by definition, social, and I would say that it is morally wrong for Jews to be forbidden from mixing with Gentiles on account of this. However, this is coming from my position as a Gentile (as I cannot see why this is immodest) and I respect your views, even though I would disagree with them.

Jews who marry Gentiles have no place in The World To Come. Jews who do that are traitors. You are NOT going to come in here and say that Jewish beliefs are morally wrong. You are being like FTF and his attack on The Talmud.

I did not mention marriage at all. The context I said was social mixing. Who are you to stop Jews mixing with Gentiles in a social way. I too am opposed to Jews marrying Gentiles, because I believe Judaism's rules on this should be respected. However I cannot see how male-female dancing is bad at all. And I don't see how dancing with someone of the opposite sex (provided it is not immodest) is bad, even between Jew and Gentile if there is nothing sexual going with it.

Also please can you answer my question on ballet. Is it wrong for Jews to watch ballet, in your opinion, Yacov?

Dancing with a woman is sexual in Judaism so it should not be done with anyone except between a husband and wife in private.

When I was immodest, I just wanted to dance with women so I could hug them. If you're married, you can always hug your wife so it wouldn't be a big deal to dance with a woman. Anything involving hugging, dancing, or kissing should not be done between a Jew and Gentile of the opposite gender. The most lenient position is that it is okay to shake hands and that is what Chaim holds by and what Rabbi Kahane held by. I am more strict and wouldn't want to shake hands with an attractive women because I am a man and it is immodest. Chaim's sister holds by the more strict position and doesn't shake hands with men at all.

OK, thanks for clearing that up

Out of interest, why is it immodest in Judaism, and why is shaking hands immodest?

Shaking hands (with the opposite sex) is not immodest per se. However, there is a prohibition against deriving pleasure from touching a woman (or a man in the opposite case). Thus, many refrain from touching or shaking a hand at all, as a fence around this rule. I personally do not shake hands with a female unless they stick out their hand first, and even then I don't give a firm grip. The act may seem innocent with no intent for immodesty, but it can lead that way.

What do you think was the first thing that attracted Clinton to Monica? It started with a handshake, maybe a wink too, but the handshake was the first point of contact. If one refrains from shaking hands with the opposite sex, one creates a wall and establishes boundries.

I have shook so many hands..and so have so many others and it didn't lead to anything...

THat's not to say that I disagree with certain rabbis who prohibit it...It's just a fence..Some get tempted more easily than others. OThers can control themselves better than others...so some need to build a fence 5 miles wide while others only need 10 feet.

[Karen]

I don't care that it's supposed to be modest and virtuous. Every time an Orthodox refuses to shake my hand, or pass money from him to me to the driver in a cab, I get upset.
It just stinks of sexism. What, is he unable to contain himself sexually near every female that he can't touch them even for societal necessities? I think they underestimate how much a handshake can do. You might as well put women in burkas like the muslims because LOOKING at women can lead to impure thoughts.

Impure thoughts aren't pure evil like committing murder, it's just a way of seeing how you're attracted to people. People with common sense keep it to themselves and don't act on it.

This is the only thing that sets me off when dealing with orthodox men. Otherwise they're charming people.

[AsheDina]

no, Jews SHOULD DEF GO TO PROMS! Show some of these people how wonderful your manners are, with nice clothing, etc. I went to 3 proms.

[Gruzinit]

no, Jews SHOULD DEF GO TO PROMS! Show some of these people how wonderful your manners are, with nice clothing, etc. I went to 3 proms.

How true. I would be nice to see more chivalry these days.

[Dr. Dan]

no senior proms should not be banned for Jews..it should be banned for losers who can't find girlfriends or vice versa.

[~Hanna~]

I was never invited to any prom, so this is a sad subject for me......

oh well......

[cjd]

I was never invited to any prom, so this is a sad subject for me......

oh well......

This sounds like good material for a remake of the Dean Martin Roast Show. All we need is to get Red Buttons out of retirement and brush off his never had a dinner act

[~Hanna~]

 

Ive always wanted to be a stand up comedianne.......I love Carol Burnett.....

I was never invited to any prom, so this is a sad subject for me......

oh well......

This sounds like good material for a remake of the Dean Martin Roast Show. All we need is to get Red Buttons out of retirement and brush off his never had a dinner act

[AsheDina]

  Really, I AM serious- young Jewish people that LOVE HaShem, they SHOULD go in groups and act with respect that they are taught at home, they will get COMPLIMENTS- dress modest, look pure, people would be like>>>>    WOW- I wish I was better- its true. I know I have seen pretty devout Christians do this, its neat- so, Jewish people ARE the example of G-d in the Earth- SO- YES. Go with your fellow brethren. (NOT dating style- be DIFFERENT- look holy. HaShem WILL reward this good behavior.)

[muman613]

  Really, I AM serious- young Jewish people that LOVE HaShem, they SHOULD go in groups and act with respect that they are taught at home, they will get COMPLIMENTS- dress modest, look pure, people would be like>>>>    WOW- I wish I was better- its true. I know I have seen pretty devout Christians do this, its neat- so, Jewish people ARE the example of G-d in the Earth- SO- YES. Go with your fellow brethren. (NOT dating style- be DIFFERENT- look holy. HaShem WILL reward this good behavior.)

Excellent idea AsheDina! 

I know you are right about how people perceive you. We make an impression on all who we come into contact with. A holy person is usually respected. Even when those wicked people disrespect you others will realize how wicked the others are. I have seen this effect once I cleaned up my image and returned to a life modeled on Torah.

muman613

PS: Im one who never went to a prom.

[Dan]

The person who began this thread is mentally challenged and tends to obsess about the opposite sex too much... Proms are fine if the people attending them are good and moral, just like anything else!

[muman613]

The person who began this thread is mentally challenged and tends to obsess about the opposite sex too much... Proms are fine if the people attending them are good and moral, just like anything else!

Dan,

It is true that inter-gender dancing is forbidden by Orthodox Jewish law. I think that the original poster just wanted to express this and suggest to those who are observant to not engage in this gentile custom.

muman613

[q_q_]

The person who began this thread is mentally challenged and tends to obsess about the opposite sex too much... Proms are fine if the people attending them are good and moral, just like anything else!

It seems to me that dancing is somewhat of a teasing simulation of sex , and I think it's an outrageous thing to do in public. (in private it would just be pathetic!)

side point-
The person that started this thread meant it somewhat in jest, but is a bit crazy. (and the expression, never a truer word spoken in jest, holds true. He probably would want it banned).

I changed the subject from   "should senior proms be banned for orthodox jews?"  , to  "are proms immoral?"

[q_q_]

And to the one that claims that intergender dancing is forbidden in jewish law. He won't quote where.  It is not a fact.  He could research on google though.

But the touchy dancing in public taking place at proms, is obviously considered forbidden by those that refuse to touch the opposite sex before marriage.

You may have seen a rabbi dancing with a woman, with a tissue in between.

So the one that thinks he knows better can tell him he is violating halacha. But he won't, I assure you. He wouldn't dare even quote halacha to him , or even to anybody here.

Those making claims about jewish law here, know nothing of it, and in some cases, only recently discovered its existance.   

So there is little point in discussing jewish law. When nobody can even quote it, so far, not even with google, which is a joke way to study it anyway. And I assure you that this character has not studied jewish law.

More interestingly, given what dancing is..
a teasing simulation of sex , et.c. as I said.  I think it's an outrageous thing to do in public. (in private it would just be pathetic!)
And I wonder how anybody can defend it as normal or good or even OK.  I think it's crazy.  The only reason it isn't considered shameless is because it's a societal norm, and a crazy one.  If you do it, you should at least know that it's not quite right and you're not getting frowned on because it's a crazy society that we live in.

[muman613]

And to the one that claims that intergender dancing is forbidden in jewish law. He won't quote where.  It is not a fact.  He could research on google though.

But the touchy dancing in public taking place at proms, is obviously considered forbidden by those that refuse to touch the opposite sex before marriage.

You may have seen a rabbi dancing with a woman, with a tissue in between.

So the one that thinks he knows better can tell him he is violating halacha. But he won't, I assure you. He wouldn't dare even quote halacha to him , or even to anybody here.

Those making claims about jewish law here, know nothing of it, and in some cases, only recently discovered its existance.   

So there is little point in discussing jewish law. When nobody can even quote it, so far, not even with google, which is a joke way to study it anyway. And I assure you that this character has not studied jewish law.

More interestingly, given what dancing is..
a teasing simulation of sex , et.c. as I said.  I think it's an outrageous thing to do in public. (in private it would just be pathetic!)
And I wonder how anybody can defend it as normal or good or even OK.  I think it's crazy.  The only reason it isn't considered shameless is because it's a societal norm, and a crazy one.  If you do it, you should at least know that it's not quite right and you're not getting frowned on because it's a crazy society that we live in.

q_q_,

I thought you were supposed to be smart about these things. Are you not Orthodox? I think you are not being honest when you say that the reason dancing is not ok is just because it is crazy to you....

Have you ever heard of the middah of Tzniut? Tzniut is usually translated as modesty. Here is the page from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut

Tzniut or Tznius (also Tzeniut) (Hebrew: צניעות "modesty") is a term used within Judaism and has its greatest influence as a notion within Orthodox Judaism. It is used to describe both a character trait and a group of Jewish religious laws pertaining to conduct in general and especially between the sexes.

Humility is a paramount ideal within Judaism. Moses is referred to as "exceedingly humble, more than any man in the world" (Bamidbar 12:3). The Talmud states that humility is one of the characteristic traits of the Jewish people. (Talmud, Tractate Yevamot 79a.)
.
.
.
Public gatherings and dancing

In Orthodox Judaism, men and women are separated at certain other public religious gatherings, especially where dancing is expected to take place. While Orthodox Jews agree that mixed dancing is prohibited and dancing requires separation, the extent to which separation is required under other circumstances varies within Orthodox Judaism. Some Haredi authorities require separation at celebratory meals and events such as weddings, although some claim noted Haredi Rabbi Moshe Feinstein held that such separation is not required except for the dancing component. Modern Orthodox authorities generally do not require separation except for dancing. [7] Where separation occurs, it is often includes setting up a temporary Mechitza (partition).

Conservative and Reform Judaism do not require separation between men and women at religious gatherings.

Maybe you are referring to reform Judaism but I am not familiar with that...

muman613