Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Response from a non zionist, regarding RAMBAN, and vilna gaon 600000
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
To be honest q_q, the nonzionist is clearly obfuscating the issue regarding Ramban. He bemoans the fact that Ramban didn't go to Eretz Yisrael until late in life. The point is that HE WENT. He wouldn't have gone if he thought it unimportant. He made a point of going there, even in old age. We all know how hard it is to leave a family behind, to travel a distant land before the advent of planes, etc, to engage a foreign culture and foreign peoples. As if any person doesn't have a yetzer hara? We all have it. All of these things also prevent us TODAY from going to Israel. Only we have it much easier than the Ramban had it, and he still went. And he commented that he couldn't even find a minyan when he got there. To think we have 6 million Jews in Israel, and we don't go. We are obligated, but it is each person's decision. It's not easy. I have a family here in the USA I have to deal with too.
The comment that the sefer was written by a grandson of a disciple of the Vilna Gaon is complete HOGWASH. Here's what wikipedia says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kol_HaTor
"The Voice of the Turtledove" (a reference to Song of Songs 2:12) was written by Rabbi Hillel Rivlin of Shaklov a disciple of the Vilna Gaon . The text deals with the Geulah (Era of Redemption) and describes its signs vis-a-vis an evaluation of a proposed 999 footsteps of the Moshiach’s arrival. It was first published in Hebrew by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Kasher in 1968 to whom the book was passed down over the generations. According to Rabbi Pinchas Winston,
"The original text of Kol HaTor was kept in the manuscript by the Rivlin family, descendants of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, for over 200 years. In 1947, Rabbi Shlomo Rivlin, with the advice of the great Kabbalists of Jerusalem, decided to publish an abridged version of this lengthy and difficult treatise "
Thus, it was written by a great Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, who was a direct disciple of the Vilna Gaon. This is not in question. I have confirmed this fact of wikipedia on other sites as well. The Kol Hator explains itself, which you can find here http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/ We don't have a tradition of distrusting the mesorah or our great rabbis. His attitude here flies in the face of our very mesorah. How dare he suggest inauthenticity or dishonesty regarding this text and its authorship. It is because he is asking rhetorical questions and hasn't done the research. When YOU have to answer HIS questions, it means he doesn't even have the background knowledge on his own 'antizionist' opinion. It appears he's trying to do gymnastics so that he can resolve the matter superficially to fit his opinion.
But even still, this sefer is not relevant to the question so much. Why? Because the VILNA GAON INSTRUCTED HIS FOLLOWERS TO SETTLE THE LAND OF ISRAEL. A large group of families known as the "perushim" settled into Tzfat after their rabbi the Vilna Gaon passed away. I learned with a Rabbi who is a descendant of one of these families. Even ignoring the Kol HaTor, we still know the Vilna Goan's position on this matter. The Kol Hator only serves to confirm it further, as if we needed any further confirmation.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Here is from the intro, where it says that actually Rabbi Hillel Rivlin of Shklov was not only a close disciple of the Vilna Gaon but also his 'grand-nephew.' So they were related as well.
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/0.htm
"There are probably two basic questions Jews have recycled and asked for literally centuries: Is it good for the Jews? And, when (and under what circumstances) is Mashiach coming?
In this scarcely known text by the Gaon of Vilna's grand-nephew and disciple, Rabbi Hillel Shklover, probably the best and most detailed answer extant to the second question is given."
kahaneloyalist:
q_q one of the things that turned me away from the Charedim, and no I wasnt raised one but I had some leanings that way as a teenager, is the widespread rewriting of history and even texts that they engage in in order to make it appear that theirs is the only legitimate Torah path. I will give you one example in 195 Rabbi Ben Menachem the brother-in-law to the Chazon Ish wrote a perush on the Mishne Torah called Perush HaMelech, in the introduction to the second section he says
"And if it is [appropriate] to see the hand of Hashem in the depth of [Hashem's] judgment, then obviously we should not ignore seeing the hand of Hashem in our miraculous salvation that we perceived with our very eyes after years of suffering in our Holy Land. Only a blind person will not see in what occurred here eight years ago the great hand of Hashem extending over us for a blessing; When Hashem, in his great mercy, delivered the many into the hands of a few and stood for us in our [moment] of trouble and we merited the rise of the State of Israel - which is the first flowering of our complete redemption - and the scattered ones of Israel are gathering from all corners of the earth and are rebuilding [the land from its] desolation. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to know that the great salvation and redemption will come to the nation of Israel after [Hashem's] great Name will be glorified and sanctified by us, and our recognition will grow and become strengthened that the hand of Hashem did all this and according to it will shall live. And we, all of us, are full of hope for the coming of the righteous redeemer, quickly in our days, and for the return of G-d's presence to Zion, our Holy city."
This only appears in the first printing after his death all subsequent printings have this passage removed. Similiar things have happened many times, what your anti-Zionist friend is attempting to do is this on a smaller level.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on February 08, 2008, 03:55:43 AM ---q_q one of the things that turned me away from the Charedim, and no I wasnt raised one but I had some leanings that way as a teenager, is the widespread rewriting of history and even texts that they engage in in order to make it appear that theirs is the only legitimate Torah path. I will give you one example in 195 Rabbi Ben Menachem the brother-in-law to the Chazon Ish wrote a perush on the Mishne Torah called Perush HaMelech, in the introduction to the second section he says
"And if it is [appropriate] to see the hand of Hashem in the depth of [Hashem's] judgment, then obviously we should not ignore seeing the hand of Hashem in our miraculous salvation that we perceived with our very eyes after years of suffering in our Holy Land. Only a blind person will not see in what occurred here eight years ago the great hand of Hashem extending over us for a blessing; When Hashem, in his great mercy, delivered the many into the hands of a few and stood for us in our [moment] of trouble and we merited the rise of the State of Israel - which is the first flowering of our complete redemption - and the scattered ones of Israel are gathering from all corners of the earth and are rebuilding [the land from its] desolation. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to know that the great salvation and redemption will come to the nation of Israel after [Hashem's] great Name will be glorified and sanctified by us, and our recognition will grow and become strengthened that the hand of Hashem did all this and according to it will shall live. And we, all of us, are full of hope for the coming of the righteous redeemer, quickly in our days, and for the return of G-d's presence to Zion, our Holy city."
This only appears in the first printing after his death all subsequent printings have this passage removed. Similiar things have happened many times, what your anti-Zionist friend is attempting to do is this on a smaller level.
--- End quote ---
Amazing story.
Another example is the fact that when the state was established both Rav Elyashiv who is considered by many to be the Gadhol HaDor and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach signed a statement saying that the establishment of the state is the beginning of the Redemption.
I asked a Charedi about this and he said "They were Choyzer." meaning "They changed their minds on that later on."
No proof was adduced for this unlikely supposition and probably in his mind none was needed. It is simply impossible that they didn't change their minds. You don't need to prove it.
Kind of like q_q_'s non zionist who told me that the Ramban says it is not a Chiyuv(obligation) to conquer and settle the Land of Israel despite the fact he clearly says it is a Chiyuv (obligation) even during the time of Exile.
Here's how our exchange went with him on the microphone and me typing:
Me: The Ramban says clearly that it is a mitzvah to conquer and settle the Land of Israel.
Non-Zionist: But he says it is not a Chiyuv.
Me: No, he doesn't. He says clearly that it is a Chiyuv even during the time of Exile.
Non-Zionist: But he says it is not a Chiyuv.
Me: I'm looking at it right now. He says clearly that it is.
Non-Zionist: But he says it is not a Chiyuv.
Me: Do you have the book open in front you right now?
Non-Zionist: No, But he says it is not a Chiyuv.
Me: I can quote it word for word, He says clearly that it is a Chiyuv.
Non-Zionist: And the reason that he says it is not a Chiyuv is because of the Three Oaths.
That is how it went. I think you can see the problem here.
q_q_:
He did not give much of a response to me either. He does not have the book in front of him, so he did not pretend either. Another person in the room said he will look into it and get back to me. I am sure Toras(the non zionist) will look into it too. We will see.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version