Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
nessuno:
--- Quote from: Skippy on February 10, 2008, 05:50:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 10, 2008, 01:24:58 PM ---I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
--- End quote ---
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that withdrawing care from a terminally ill person is murder.
A person or their health care proxy should have the right to stop treatment -when that treatment is futile. That is not suicide.
When possible the decision should be made with family and the medical team. Everyone should be on the same page.
I have participated in many end of life cases at work.
Skippy is right - it is never easy.
Yet it is never easy when we prolong life - in futile cases - and watch families destroyed by that.
In some cases - every decent memory of their loved one replaced with one of suffering.
Lubab:
Everyone here seems to be confusing two very different issues.
A lot of you are talking about the issue of whether we must prolong life by a terminally ill patient. This is NOT the issue I am talking about here.
The question was about suicide. I think it was clear to any listener that we were talking about a proactive act by someone...either the patient, or the doctor to end the life.
If you leave the patient so that whatever happens happens (i.e. DNR or something like that) that is one thing and may be totally permissible and I believe it is permissible.
But if we are talking about someone committing suicide or homicide by proactively doing something to end the life which I believe is murder according to all opinions.
According to Jewish law, when the person appears to be dying you must not talk or touch the person as their soul is leaving them because you may cause their soul to leave a moment too soon and even though they might have died a moment later, this is MURDER.
People can say their own opinions, but I'm not really concerned with my opinion or anyone else's opinion. I'm trying to talk about what is the Torah view on this. The Torah was given to us by G-d and YES he does have a right to say what we should do in these situations.
If Chaim meant something else, I should hope he will make this clear.
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
I don't think the Bible speaks on this either way--therefore, we must make our own judgments. I don't think any of us have the right to speak for someone who has free will and faculties in that situation. Therefore I agree with Chaim, DWI, Skippy, Dr. Dan., etc. on this issue.
At my church, an elderly couple I know went through exactly this. The elderly husband had serious heart surgery about three or four years ago and never really recovered, and simply became an increasing burden on his (able-bodied) elderly wife, as his health went on an exponential downward spiral. Whether it was due to poor lifestyle habits in his youth (which age-related diseases usually are partially attributable to) or simply the irreversible and unavoidable effects of aging, this man became nothing but a burden and life-sapper for his wife, and was completely unable to accomplish any more good or usefulness for his remaining time on earth.
When he finally passed last fall, his wife, though grieving, was relieved, and I can see why.
Now--I would never go around saying who must die, but if this man on his own decided that this miserable existence (which I would call worse than death) was only dragging all of his loved ones down and wanted out, I certainly would not call it sin.
I definitely hope something takes me long before I become a vegetable or parasite...
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
lubab at what point is someone considered halachically dead, and what do you mean by 'not doing anything' to let them die naturally as opposed to doing an act? If they are on life support, they will remain alive in vegetative state, no?
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Lubab is right, the Halacha is Halacha. And suffering cant be an excuse (G-d save us from these things). If the Halacha says that the patient cant be killed (murdered) then its forbidden even if they are in pain. And if this comes up, then it was decreed by G-d to happen this way (may G-d save us from such things).
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