Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.
Sergio 11:
I think Chaim has point to prove when it comes to the topic of terminally ill individuals been given a painless way out...
But i have to agree with Lubab on this one, every second of life is valuable and people shouldn't just quit on it even if everything seems useless...
and Lubab is also correct about suicide going against the Torah ...
Lubab you are a courageous and brave man to challenge Chaim when it comes to the torah and you are 100% right on this. ;)
newman:
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 03:03:07 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 02:46:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 02:39:26 AM ---In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
--- End quote ---
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
--- End quote ---
Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.
Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.
If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.
--- End quote ---
I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.
Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.
And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 03:25:00 AM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 03:03:07 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 11, 2008, 02:46:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 11, 2008, 02:39:26 AM ---In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
--- End quote ---
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
--- End quote ---
Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.
Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.
If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.
--- End quote ---
I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.
Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.
And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.
--- End quote ---
When the pain reaches a certain point the soul will actually leave and that will cause the death. If they are not at that point G-d commands them to keep fighting to stay in this world.
But Newman, I just want to understand: are you trying to figure this our with your own brain? Or are you trying to look into the books and see what G-d really wants?
There is a huge distinction there, and if your whole religion is based on what you find acceptable in your own mind, then you are not worshiping G-d, but yourself. I don't know what that is, but it's not Judiasm.
If G-d actually said to do everything the Koran says, we would all have to do it.
It's nice to explain the commandments according to our understanding, but that is only the second stage. The first stage is to ACCEPT G-d's kingdom over us...then later...maybe you can understand it too.
That's why the Jews were rewarded for saying "We will do" before they said "we will hear".
Lubab:
I also find it very strange what people say.
Nobody here yet has taken issue with the fact that G-d gives people terminal diseases in the first place. This we just accept.
But G-d telling them to actually suffer longer with the disease!!!??? Now that's just cruel!
So twisted. The same G-d that gave them the disease in the first place is the same one telling them to fight for their life.
Why is one harder to understand than the other? They should be equally troubling.
newman:
If a Jew or noachide is chased onto a prison roof by a prison gang and faces certain sodomy, he must choose death over sexual imorallity (as is the case for idolatry or murder) and jump off the roof.
How can it be OK to commit suicide over sodomy (that one will recover from) and not hideous, screaming, endless agony? :(
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