Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Moshiah (Add on to what Judea was saying)
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 16, 2008, 08:49:49 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 16, 2008, 08:31:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 16, 2008, 08:23:27 PM ---
The yechi statement tends to be said by those that believe he is the messiah.. The ones that think he is G-d tend to say some sentence with the word Borainu in it..
In order that nobody is misled.. And please correct me if I am wrong lulav.. Do you think he is the messiah? It seems like you might...
--- End quote ---
Yes. I do.
The Rebbe-G-d situation suffers from two problems.
One problem is that some of these people running around are just plain nuts.
The other problem is that there are legitimate statements by the Chassidic Rebbes that led to these nut's views, which are absolutely holy pure and true..but the second problem is that Chabad hasidic philosophy is written in a certain language. The language of hasidic and often kabbalistic terminology. The vast majority of people don't understand that language, so this can lead to many misunderstandings.
--- End quote ---
Exactly, their shouldn't have been in the first place this mess created where some step over the line completly and are in the category of idol-worshippers. I belive that this is one of the reasons why certain Sefardic Kabbalists didn't allow people to have pictures of great Rabbis, in order not to create a statute or a mini-"G-d" out of them.
"The Ben Ish Chai (Rabbi Yosef Chayim of Baghdad, 1835-1909), in Parashat Masei, cites a Kabbalistic tradition forbidding hanging pictures of people in one’s home. Many people, however, do not follow this practice, and permit hanging photographs. "......
http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1305&txtSearch=pictures
--- End quote ---
Chabad feels that pictures of the Rebbe are fine even in a shul and even if people will bow down in front of it. See the Zal in Tiferes Bachurim Yeshiva in Morristown. The pictures of five of their Rebbes in the back of the Beis Medrash so each and every Shabbat, they sing Lecha Dodi and then bow to pictures of the Rebbes.
So they think bowing to a picture of one of their Rebbes is fine and Dandy.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT
NEVERTHELESS IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU FROM ANOTHER CHAPTER OF FALSE MESSIANISM, WE RECOMMEND THAT YOU INFORM YOURSELVES ABOUT THE TRUE NATURE OF THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE’S LEADERSHIP
WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU FIRST VISIT THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV AND THE PAGES ON FALSE MESSIAHS IN ORDER TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION
IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU
IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU. IT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THEY REALLY WANT YOUR BENEFIT, AND THAT THEY CARE FOR YOU. WHEN SOMEONE TREATS YOU NICELY, YOU TEND TO LOWER YOUR DEFENSE AND YOU DON’T JUDGE THEIR MOTIVES ANYMORE.
THIS IS THE WAY OF MISSIONARIES. THEIR GOAL IS TO CONVERT YOU TO THEIR BELIEF. HOW DO THEY ACHIEVE IT? THROUGH KINDNESS AND DECEPTION. THROUGH THEIR UNCOMMON WILLINGNESS TO HELP OTHERS, THEY GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE LATER CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH OF THE MISSIONARY’S BELIEF.
ALL THE TECHNIQUES USED BY CHABAD ARE NOT NEW. THEY HAVE BEEN USED BY THE CHURCH TO CONVERT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE DEAD MESSIAH NAMED J-----.
REMEMBER: A FRIEND CAN HURT YOU MORE THAN AN ENEMY
WHEN DEALING WITH SOMEONE YOU PERCEIVE AS A FRIEND, YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD. WHY WOULD A FRIEND WANT TO HURT ME OR USE ME? THAT IS WHY FRIENDS CAN HARM MORE THAN ENEMIES.
IT IS PRECISELY TORAH SCHOLARS WHO CAN DO THE MOST HARM TO JEWS
THIS IS OBVIOUS. BECAUSE AN IGNORANT PERSON CAN NOT CONVINCE OTHER JEWS OF HIS BELIEF. IT IS HARD FOR A CHRISTIAQN MISSIONARY WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT TORAH TO CONVERT A JEW TO HIS BELIEF.
BUT SOMEONE WITH VAST KNOWLEDGE IN TORAH AND SECULAR STUDIES, SOMEONE WHO CAN MANIPULATE THE MINDS OF SIMPLE JEWS WHO LONG FOR A BETTER WORLD WITH THE COMING OF THE COMPLETE REDEMPTION AND THE REBUILDING OF THE BEIS HA MIKDOSH, THAT SOMEONE CAN EASILY MANIPULATE THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS. ADD A LITTLE SUPERFICIAL KINDNESS TO IT, AND YOU HAVE A PERFECT FORMULA FOR DECEPTION.
REMEMBER THE SPIES? REMEMBER KORACH? REMEMBER YEROVAM BEN NEVAT? REMEMBER THE KINGS OF ISRAEL WHO DID EVIL IN HASHEM’S EYES? POWERFUL LEADERS WITH GREAT TORAH KNOWLEDGE AND YET THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLEADING INNOCENT PEOPLE INTO DISOBEYING HASHEM, CAUSING DEATH AND TRAGEDY.
SHABTAI TZVI ALSO MADE A LOT OF JEWS RETURN TO TESHUVA AND THIS IS WHY RABBIS WERE LENIENT WITH HIM IN THE BEGINNING BUT THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY PROVED WRONG LATER
AT THIS POINT, YOU ARE ASKING: BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO BE MESSIAH WITHOUT HASHEM CONSENTING TO IT? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?
BUT THE BEST ANSWER MAY BE FOUND IN THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV. THERE YOU WILL SEE THAT THE SOULS OF THE EREV RAV WILL REINCARNATE BEFORE MOSHIACH’S ARRIVAL IN ORDER TO DEVIATE THE JEWS FROM THE RIGHT PATH.
JUST AS THE SERPENT DECEIVED CHAVA AND ADAM, AND MADE THEM DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMAND, SO THE EREV RAV DECEIVE JEWS INTO HERESY SO THAT THEY WILL DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMANDS.
JUST AS THE EREV RAV MADE THE GOLDEN CALF IN THE DESERT AT SUCH GREAT HEIGHTS OF THE HOLY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, SO A FALSE MESSIAH COMES TO CAUSE TROUBLE RIGHT BEFORE THE TIME WHEN FINALLY HASHEM’S NAME WILL BE EXALTED ON EARTH.
WHAT BETTER WEAPON FOR THE SATAN THAN A SECT OF ORTHODOX JEWS BELIEVING IN A DEAD MESSIAH? CAN YOU IMAGINE WHEN MASHIACH BEN YOSEF ARRIVES AND FINDS A VAST GROUP OF ORTHODOX JEWS DENYING THAT HE IS THE MASHIACH?
THUS IN ORDER TO SAVE INNOCENT JEWS FROM BEING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE WHEN THE REAL MASHIACH COMES [MASHIACH BEN YOSEF AND MASHIACH BEN DAVID] WE HAVE COMPILED ALL THIS INFORMATION FOR YOU TO STUDY IT AND THEN TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS, FOR IT IS YOUR DUTY AND YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO SAVE OTHER JEWS AS WELL.
AND REMEMBER DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ACTS OF KINDNESS. THAT IS NOT THE EPITOME OF KINDNESS, BECAUSE WHEN KINDNESS IS DONE FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, IT IS NOT CONSIDERED KINDNESS AT ALL.
AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE DEFINITION OF THE RABBIS OF THE EREV RAV AS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH (BERESHIT 25A): “AND ALL THEIR KINDNESS, THEY DO FOR THEMSELVES”
OBJECTIVES:
AFTER REVIEWING THE CONTENTS OF THESE PAGES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISCERN FOR YOURSELF THAT:
THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE HIMSELF CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH SON OF DAVID
ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, THE CHASSIDIM OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH BELIEVE THE REBBE WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH AS HE HIMSELF CLAIMED
THE MAIN GOAL OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH IS TO SPREAD THE BELIEF THAT THE REBBE IS THE MESSIAH.
FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO HEAR THIS BELIEF THEY WILL SAY IT OPENLY. FOR THOSE NOT READY YET TO HEAR THIS BELIEF, CHABAD PATIENTLY WAITS FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO REVEAL THE “TRUTH”. MEANWHILE THEY KEEP PRACTICING “ACTS OF KINDNESS” TO GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF EVERYONE
A GREAT TRAGEDY IS IN THE MAKING. UNLESS THE REAL MASHIACH COMES VERY SOON, MAJOR PORTIONS OF PRACTICING JEWS WILL IN FACT HAVE CREATED A NEW FORM OF CHRISTIANITY, G-D FORBID
TODAY’S RABBIS THOSE NOT BELONGING TO CHABAD YET, ARE WORRIED WITH THEIR OWN HONOR AND VERY FEW OF THEM CARE ABOUT HASHEM AND HIS TORAH [AS IS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH, TALMUD, BOOKS OF MUSSAR] THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THE REBBE AND HIS FOLLOWERS FIND VERY LITTLE OPPOSITION TO THEIR MISSION. AS CHABAD GAINS POWER THROUGH ITS WEALTHY DONORS, MORE AND MORE NON CHABAD RABBIS ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING THEIR FRIENDS, OR EVEN CHABADNICKS THEMSELVES
Not mine but from www.Israel613.com
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 08:08:47 PM ---WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT
NEVERTHELESS IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOU FROM ANOTHER CHAPTER OF FALSE MESSIANISM, WE RECOMMEND THAT YOU INFORM YOURSELVES ABOUT THE TRUE NATURE OF THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE’S LEADERSHIP
WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU FIRST VISIT THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV AND THE PAGES ON FALSE MESSIAHS IN ORDER TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION
IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU
IT IS SO HARD WHEN SOMEONE IS NICE TO YOU. IT MAKES YOU THINK THAT THEY REALLY WANT YOUR BENEFIT, AND THAT THEY CARE FOR YOU. WHEN SOMEONE TREATS YOU NICELY, YOU TEND TO LOWER YOUR DEFENSE AND YOU DON’T JUDGE THEIR MOTIVES ANYMORE.
THIS IS THE WAY OF MISSIONARIES. THEIR GOAL IS TO CONVERT YOU TO THEIR BELIEF. HOW DO THEY ACHIEVE IT? THROUGH KINDNESS AND DECEPTION. THROUGH THEIR UNCOMMON WILLINGNESS TO HELP OTHERS, THEY GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO ARE LATER CONVINCED OF THE TRUTH OF THE MISSIONARY’S BELIEF.
ALL THE TECHNIQUES USED BY CHABAD ARE NOT NEW. THEY HAVE BEEN USED BY THE CHURCH TO CONVERT INNOCENT PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN THE DEAD MESSIAH NAMED J-----.
REMEMBER: A FRIEND CAN HURT YOU MORE THAN AN ENEMY
WHEN DEALING WITH SOMEONE YOU PERCEIVE AS A FRIEND, YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD. WHY WOULD A FRIEND WANT TO HURT ME OR USE ME? THAT IS WHY FRIENDS CAN HARM MORE THAN ENEMIES.
IT IS PRECISELY TORAH SCHOLARS WHO CAN DO THE MOST HARM TO JEWS
THIS IS OBVIOUS. BECAUSE AN IGNORANT PERSON CAN NOT CONVINCE OTHER JEWS OF HIS BELIEF. IT IS HARD FOR A CHRISTIAQN MISSIONARY WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT TORAH TO CONVERT A JEW TO HIS BELIEF.
BUT SOMEONE WITH VAST KNOWLEDGE IN TORAH AND SECULAR STUDIES, SOMEONE WHO CAN MANIPULATE THE MINDS OF SIMPLE JEWS WHO LONG FOR A BETTER WORLD WITH THE COMING OF THE COMPLETE REDEMPTION AND THE REBUILDING OF THE BEIS HA MIKDOSH, THAT SOMEONE CAN EASILY MANIPULATE THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS. ADD A LITTLE SUPERFICIAL KINDNESS TO IT, AND YOU HAVE A PERFECT FORMULA FOR DECEPTION.
REMEMBER THE SPIES? REMEMBER KORACH? REMEMBER YEROVAM BEN NEVAT? REMEMBER THE KINGS OF ISRAEL WHO DID EVIL IN HASHEM’S EYES? POWERFUL LEADERS WITH GREAT TORAH KNOWLEDGE AND YET THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLEADING INNOCENT PEOPLE INTO DISOBEYING HASHEM, CAUSING DEATH AND TRAGEDY.
SHABTAI TZVI ALSO MADE A LOT OF JEWS RETURN TO TESHUVA AND THIS IS WHY RABBIS WERE LENIENT WITH HIM IN THE BEGINNING BUT THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY PROVED WRONG LATER
AT THIS POINT, YOU ARE ASKING: BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO BE MESSIAH WITHOUT HASHEM CONSENTING TO IT? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?
BUT THE BEST ANSWER MAY BE FOUND IN THE PAGES OF THE EREV RAV. THERE YOU WILL SEE THAT THE SOULS OF THE EREV RAV WILL REINCARNATE BEFORE MOSHIACH’S ARRIVAL IN ORDER TO DEVIATE THE JEWS FROM THE RIGHT PATH.
JUST AS THE SERPENT DECEIVED CHAVA AND ADAM, AND MADE THEM DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMAND, SO THE EREV RAV DECEIVE JEWS INTO HERESY SO THAT THEY WILL DISOBEY HASHEM’S COMMANDS.
JUST AS THE EREV RAV MADE THE GOLDEN CALF IN THE DESERT AT SUCH GREAT HEIGHTS OF THE HOLY PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, SO A FALSE MESSIAH COMES TO CAUSE TROUBLE RIGHT BEFORE THE TIME WHEN FINALLY HASHEM’S NAME WILL BE EXALTED ON EARTH.
WHAT BETTER WEAPON FOR THE SATAN THAN A SECT OF ORTHODOX JEWS BELIEVING IN A DEAD MESSIAH? CAN YOU IMAGINE WHEN MASHIACH BEN YOSEF ARRIVES AND FINDS A VAST GROUP OF ORTHODOX JEWS DENYING THAT HE IS THE MASHIACH?
THUS IN ORDER TO SAVE INNOCENT JEWS FROM BEING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE WHEN THE REAL MASHIACH COMES [MASHIACH BEN YOSEF AND MASHIACH BEN DAVID] WE HAVE COMPILED ALL THIS INFORMATION FOR YOU TO STUDY IT AND THEN TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS, FOR IT IS YOUR DUTY AND YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE TO SAVE OTHER JEWS AS WELL.
AND REMEMBER DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ACTS OF KINDNESS. THAT IS NOT THE EPITOME OF KINDNESS, BECAUSE WHEN KINDNESS IS DONE FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, IT IS NOT CONSIDERED KINDNESS AT ALL.
AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE DEFINITION OF THE RABBIS OF THE EREV RAV AS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH (BERESHIT 25A): “AND ALL THEIR KINDNESS, THEY DO FOR THEMSELVES”
OBJECTIVES:
AFTER REVIEWING THE CONTENTS OF THESE PAGES YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISCERN FOR YOURSELF THAT:
THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE HIMSELF CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH SON OF DAVID
ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, THE CHASSIDIM OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH BELIEVE THE REBBE WAS AND IS THE MESSIAH AS HE HIMSELF CLAIMED
THE MAIN GOAL OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH IS TO SPREAD THE BELIEF THAT THE REBBE IS THE MESSIAH.
FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE READY TO HEAR THIS BELIEF THEY WILL SAY IT OPENLY. FOR THOSE NOT READY YET TO HEAR THIS BELIEF, CHABAD PATIENTLY WAITS FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO REVEAL THE “TRUTH”. MEANWHILE THEY KEEP PRACTICING “ACTS OF KINDNESS” TO GAIN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF EVERYONE
A GREAT TRAGEDY IS IN THE MAKING. UNLESS THE REAL MASHIACH COMES VERY SOON, MAJOR PORTIONS OF PRACTICING JEWS WILL IN FACT HAVE CREATED A NEW FORM OF CHRISTIANITY, G-D FORBID
TODAY’S RABBIS THOSE NOT BELONGING TO CHABAD YET, ARE WORRIED WITH THEIR OWN HONOR AND VERY FEW OF THEM CARE ABOUT HASHEM AND HIS TORAH [AS IS BROUGHT IN THE ZOHAR HA KADDOSH, TALMUD, BOOKS OF MUSSAR] THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY THE REBBE AND HIS FOLLOWERS FIND VERY LITTLE OPPOSITION TO THEIR MISSION. AS CHABAD GAINS POWER THROUGH ITS WEALTHY DONORS, MORE AND MORE NON CHABAD RABBIS ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING THEIR FRIENDS, OR EVEN CHABADNICKS THEMSELVES
Not mine but from www.Israel613.com
--- End quote ---
Notice. Not one Torah source quoted. Pure defamation. Nothing less, nothing more.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 17, 2008, 08:08:47 PM ---WE ARE SORRY TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND OUR TIME ON THIS MOST UNHAPPY SUBJECT
<snip>
--- End quote ---
Lulab has not been trying to convince people that the rebbe is moshiach. He is not fooling people. And all you do is copy and paste articles. And it looks like it took a while for him saying the rebbe was moshiach to sink in, since you did not respond so negatively initially. When I asked him and he said yes.
You are not getting anywhere with what you are doing. If you want to debate him, then there are more sensible ways of debating. Like not copy/pasting articles in capital letters.
People are already aware that lulab holds this view, and that it is controversial.. and of course has no basis in the RAMBAM or Talmud or any classical jewish text.. Maybe, maybe, in interpreting some chabad literature..
Not all Chabad believe the rebbe is the messiah, or anything else, other than a great rabbi. Do not demonise all of chabad. There is a question mark as to what proportion of them believe this..
Ask any rabbi on www.askmoses.com - a chabad site , they are all chabad, and my experience is that they all say the rebbe is not the messiah. I have not asked them all but I have asked many.. There is a theory that some believe it and believe it should be admitted in public. And others believe it and believe it should not be admitted in public. But what can you do.
But it is stupid to just copy/paste nonsense as you do..
Lulab has mentioned - when asked by judea - something about believing some kabbalistic thing about the rebbe being the essence of G-d in a body. And he says it is not to be taken literally. Personally, I do not really want to know about it.. He only mentioned it when asked..
If you are trying to WARN people, then don`t bother. We know.
If you are trying to DEBATE him, then don`t bother, you are not.
Really, you are being a bit silly.. But I know you intend to warn people..
But note, do not slander the whole Chabad movement..
I personally do not like a particular chabad house near me - they are not messianic btw... I go there because they make it easy to fulfill the mitzva of hearing the megillah. They read it many many times. At flexible times..And I appreciate that.
DownwithIslam:
Lubab, why even waste your time answering this little cowards viscous attacks against Lubavitch. He is just agitated because the Lubavitcher Rebbeim were honest, wonderful people who were torutured in Europe because the refused to maser on other jews. Their whole lives were lived in honor and when unlimited amounts of money were placed in the hands of the last lubavitcher rebbe, he never took one penny of it. He simply handed it out to everyone who was willing to come. Lets contrast this with tzvi Ben roshells hero, Mr Ovadia yosef. All the money this man has is stolen. No party in Israel has had more people sent to prison for theft and corruption than mr yosefs shas party. The whore themselves out to traitor regimes while risking their fellow jews lives just so they can collect some more gelt. Rabbi Schneerson said that all jews were special while mr yosef thinks that if an Israeli soldier ever did an aveyra, then he deserves to die. Of course all the jews who died in the holocaust deserved it too accordint to Yosef. Lubab, realize you are talking t someone who has a one track, hateful mind. He is like Rabbi Kotler who publicly attacked Rabbi Schneerson time and time again in a way that he wouldn't even talk to a cleaning woman. I am so sick of these jews who attack everyone who is not like them. Lubab, don't even answer this ideological terrorist anymore becuse none of what he is writing is his own thoughts anyways. He is going to his hateful "torah" sites which are really anti lubavitch cesspools and merely copy and pasting. Mr yosef is not worthy of scrubbing Rabbi Schneersons floors. Their is a reason why lubavitch has people who donate huge amounts of money to them when mr yosef has to whore himself out to smolmert regimes to get some money. Anyone who goes around this forum saying that chabad chasidim who believe in the moshiach train of though need to be excommunicated is just a monster rasha who needs to be removed from our midst and certainly from this forum.
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