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Herzl and the Zionists (Yimach Shemo)

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habiru:
Yitzchak is a propagandist and a rabble rouser. The Haredim best keep their mouth shut when it comes to the Holocaust because their record is at least as dismal as that of the Zionists.

All Jabotinsky's previous sins are nothing when you take into account the facts of what happened.

kahaneloyalist:
guys, we are all brothers here, lets remember that fighting for the sake of Torah is righteous but for the sake of our own egos is evil. No I am not saying anyone is doing the latter. but we can disagree without personal insults.

Tzvi, yes Jabotinsky and Herzl said some pretty rotten things, but both had made signifigant changes in their worldview by the time they had died. Remember Rebbe Akiva was a Am Haaretz till he was 40 years old.

Habiru, Rav Yitzhak wishes to bring Jews to Torah he believes he can do this by attacking the early Zionists and the Holocaust, I believe that in this regard he is misguided but he is still a righteous individual, and even if we disagree with the Charedim they are still Jews and their opinion has value. Remember Rav Kook zt'l an Rav Aryeh Levin zt'l were without question Charedim

MarZutra:
Sorry to interject again. One must remember that Zev Jabbotinsky did travel through Europe trying to get people out during the days prior to and during his foundation of Batar.  He was VERY anti-Socialist/Communist which Begin and Shamir both note in their memoirs which was the reason why he and Weismann had such heated debates.  Weismann, left the call to get Jews out of Europe to invent military weaponry for the allies.....and thus making comments about leaving the Jews to be "the dust of history". ("the Transfer Agreement", "While 6 Million Died") Jabbotinsky stayed and tried to rally some Jewish Nationalism, not secular Zionism of Weismann.  Jabbotinsky, from what I am given to understand, had much against him since many of the Jews of Eastern Europe turned to Socialism/Communism: Bund due to years of Czarist pogroms.  That said Jabbotinsky had the Socialist Judenrot undermining him on one hand and the Hassidim undermining him as a crack pot on the other because he was not religous and not Hassidim....("Years of Wrath Days of Glory")

An interesting fact to note is that in the late 1870's-early 1880's prior to Hertzel, Jabbotinsky, Weismann etc. there was an Orthodox Rabbi from Lithewania, I believe but not 100% sure, that preached "Religious Zionism" on similar scales of Rav. Kahane.  His name was Rav. Samuel Mohilever.  The Head Rabbi of France introduced this different type of Rabbi to Baron deRothschild, an Orthodox Jew, in September '82 to drum up support and financing of Jewish settlement in "Palestine" for the suffering Jews of Eastern Europe.   ("The Rothschilds"-Frederic Morton)  This was, from what I have read, the start of modern religious Zionism which had only a few years later been highjacked and crushed but the wave of Labor "Zionism": Socialism Alyiah to Zion to set up a Jewish Socialistic "Utopia": The modern Bolshevik state of Israel today...  (From what I have read......)

PS: One can note very precisely that ever since the 13th century there has been a steady stream of Jews returning to Zion which is perhaps the reason why Mark Twain noted in his 1860's "The Innocents Abroad" of not seeing any "Palestinians", a very few Mohammedans West of the River Jordan but many religious Jews.

habiru:

--- Quote from: Geulah Achshav on December 29, 2006, 12:16:19 AM ---Thank you KahaneLoyalist for bringing some peace to this thread.

I only wish to add that if Vladimir Ze'ev Jabotinsky Z'l were alive today, I can guarantee you that he would most certaintly join Chaim and the Kahanists.

--- End quote ---

That says it all. And may I add that many of Jabo's closest followers and decsiples did join Rabbi Kahane after Jabo died. Rabbi Kahane was a completed Jabotinsky . You may not know this, but even Rabbi Kahane severely criticizes Jabotinsky (albeit rarely) in several of his books (I believe one passage is in "They must go" and the other is in "Uncomfortable Question". At the same time he had the utmost respect and admiration for him despite his shortcomings which were neglible compared to all the great things he's done.

Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
good question- would you support some 1 who says hes against arabs , and even calls for bombing arabs while wants to and has waged a cultural war against Judaism? or at least says hes anti-Haredi?

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