JTF and Christianity

[Hidden Author]

I'm posting this here so anyone who wishes can defend JTF...

My main two questions are as follows:

• Suppose, for example, that Jesus Christ had His ministry not in Roman-controlled Israel but rather a Kahanist-controlled Israel. Would the Kahanists have persecuted Him?
• And if so, how can Christians fund and support those who are hostile to our Lord and Savior?

Chaim, what do you think should be done with the Goyim who pretend to be Jews to steal Jewish souls, personally I think we need to finish the job Bar Kochba started with the Notsrim.

Chaim agreed. From those who are unaware, "Notsrim" is Hebrew for "Christian". While JTF rightly objects to the Holocausts and pogroms against innocent people, it seems that it has no problem with the persecution of Christians. For as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics for as long as the Second Hebrew Commonwealth existed--and the Bar Kochba Revolt was an attempt to restore that commonwealth.

Now obviously a true Christian should oppose missionaries who deceive and harass people. But it seems that all missionaries are seen in this light. Now as I have said before I am not a missionary myself. But...it seems that this is part of a hostility on the part of certain zealots towards Christianity. Suppose, for example, that Jesus Christ had His ministry not in Roman-controlled Israel but rather a Kahanist-controlled Israel. Would the Kahanists have persecuted Him? And if so, how can Christians fund and support those who are hostile to our Lord and Savior?

And while Allen-T's words have to be taken with a grain of salt due to his bigotry, he may be right when he said that JTF appeals to Christians not for the purposes of a genuine alliance but rather for the purposes of fundraising. I hope I'm wrong but it seems that for tactical purposes JTF is suppressing an underlying hostility toward Christian teaching.

[MarZutra]

You should also know as one who has read the Bible is that G-d himself, unlike Allah's Islam which demands an Islamic World under Sharia Law, has the specific directive for the Land of Israel to be Jewish.  Also, that is a very skewed piece of history as the Bar Kochba Revolt was not against Christians but Roman Pagans.  Further if one gets into the Roman invasion was the key catalyst sparking the Messianic wish, desire and fear behind John the Baptist and many others which eventually held their own "sects" for a limited period of time. 

If it weren't for Constentine and his Council of Nicea in 323, I honestly doubt, Christianity would have become the "World Religion" however distorted it had become until the ending of the "Dark Ages" in 1517 by Luther and the Protestant Reformation and the development of the printing press, Christianity made a clear break from Catholocism/Papalism.  Now all could actually read the New Testament and not solely relying on some Priest, Bishop or Pope out selling their followers pieces of paper to atone for their sins and gain entry to heaven.  A financially lucrative venture I suspect..Gotta love the Vatican...lol.  Outcome being of about 2000 years of Christian history: Councils, Reformations, Counter Reformations, Inter-faith persecutions/Warfare is about 34000 "sects" of believing "Christians" all with their interpreted truths and in honest and sincere belief that all others are wrong.  One logically must do some immense research prior to choosing a Chruch, Pastor, Reverend, Priest or spiritual leader...

Please, before delving into questioning one must A. present the issue at hand correctly and B. focus on other common issues at hand: A better and moral World.   

If you wish a credable read on this issue one might read either Paul Johnson's "History of the Jews" or more specifically Grant's "Jews in the Roman World".

Genesis 12:2-3

[Lisa]

Hidden Author, I seriously doubt you would appreciate Jews or any other religious group missionizing to Christians in Christian countries. Jews have every right to be Jewish in their own country. 

Obviously you're not happy with Chaim's response to your question on the most recent "Ask JTF."  So if you don't think JTF is compatible with your views, no one is forcing you to come here and contribute absolutely nothing except for rude questions to Chaim every so often. 

JTF is not a cult.  No one forces our wonderful members to join with us, or make financial contributions.  They do it because they like and respect Chaim and what he stands for.  You clearly, do not.

[Lisa]

Furthermore Hidden Author, there is no logical or moral comparison between Jews trying to remain Jews, and the Nazis who killed entire populations, only because they were Jews. 

[Boyana]

I am Serb ,with Jewish husband!I do not like missionaries at all.It is criminal how they are using inocent to  rob  rob them of money.
$$$$$$$$$$$Missionaries$$$$$$$$$Cash@slaves.

[Hidden Author]

Chaim agreed. From those who are unaware, "Notsrim" is Hebrew for "Christian". While JTF rightly objects to the Holocausts and pogroms against innocent people, it seems that it has no problem with the persecution of Christians. For as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics for as long as the Second Hebrew Commonwealth existed--and the Bar Kochba Revolt was an attempt to restore that commonwealth.

Christianity only began when Israel was under Roman occupation. How could Jews have persecuted Christians then?

The Roman Empire often allowed natives to police themselves through local governments as long as they paid their (very heavy) taxes. This policing power allowed the Jews in local government (the priests and the scribes) to condemn people to death for heresy especially if they could convince the Roman governor that the "heretic" was also a traitor to Caesar. If you read the New Testament, you will find that the Pharisees "to defend Jewish Law" often encouraged Roman magistrates to kill Christians not just in Israel but in the Diaspora as well. And while this persecution was sporadic and localized at first due to the small size of the Church, things changed. In particular, the Pharisees/rabbis encouraged bar Kochba to "purify Israel". To understand what they meant by "purify Israel", in the aftermath of the revolts, they declared Jewish Christians to be excommunicated!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Chaim agreed. From those who are unaware, "Notsrim" is Hebrew for "Christian". While JTF rightly objects to the Holocausts and pogroms against innocent people, it seems that it has no problem with the persecution of Christians. For as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics for as long as the Second Hebrew Commonwealth existed--and the Bar Kochba Revolt was an attempt to restore that commonwealth.

Christianity only began when Israel was under Roman occupation. How could Jews have persecuted Christians then?

The Roman Empire often allowed natives to police themselves through local governments as long as they paid their (very heavy) taxes. This policing power allowed the Jews in local government (the priests and the scribes) to condemn people to death for heresy especially if they could convince the Roman governor that the "heretic" was also a traitor to Caesar. If you read the New Testament, you will find that the Pharisees "to defend Jewish Law" often encouraged Roman magistrates to kill Christians not just in Israel but in the Diaspora as well. And while this persecution was sporadic and localized at first due to the small size of the Church, things changed. In particular, the Pharisees/rabbis encouraged bar Kochba to "purify Israel". To understand what they meant by "purify Israel", in the aftermath of the revolts, they declared Jewish Christians to be excommunicated!

 Bar Kochba revolt was agains't Rome, Christians were too insiggnificant at the time to be a threat.

[Lisa]

Hidden Author, you did not answer my question about why Jews don't have the right to remain Jewish in their own country.  DO NOT try and change the subject with your anti-semitic slander.

[Rubystars]

The compatibility issue is something that each person must decide for themselves, HiddenAuthor. I don't see what good a poll would have done on the matter. Each person has their own position, and JTF has its. Act in the way you believe is morally correct whether that means donating or not donating.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Hidden Author:  "...as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics for as long as the Second Hebrew Commonwealth existed..."

True.

This is because they indeed were heretics.

The Church of Rome also persecuted Christians it deemed to be heretics.

Conclusion:  Jews and Christians both persecuted those it considered heretics.

[Hidden Author]

Perhaps I went too far. But answer me this: What was kahaneloyalist referring to when he mentioned "the job Bar Kochba started with the Notsrim"?

[Lisa]

Perhaps I went too far. But answer me this: What was kahaneloyalist referring to when he mentioned "the job Bar Kochba started with the Notsrim"?

I don't know.  Why don't you ask him? 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Hidden Author:  "...For as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics..."

If you knew your Scriptures as you claim to, you would know that all of Jesus' disciples were Jews, and the "crowds and multitudes" which believed in him and followed him were almost entirely Jews as well.

Jesus was a Jew, as was Mary and Joseph and John the Baptist.

It's so blatantly obvious the trouble you're trying to cause, Hidden Author.

But you've missed the meaning and message of the Salvation which you claim to have received:  Had your Lord and Saviour not been persecuted and crucified, there could have been no resurrection to conquer death and atone for the sins of all mankind.

If as you believe, Jesus was G-d made flesh, then his plan to save you and the rest of the world could not have been an "accident of being born at the wrong time and at the wrong place".

Jesus, at his Pesach observance, told his disciples that one of them was to betray him.

He also told his disciples that he was to be handed over to the authorities, tried, and crucified.

Furthermore, Jesus told all of his followers that they would be persecuted and killed for their beliefs.

Jesus, when asked by his disciples when would be the time of the coming of Messiah & Final Judgement, compared his nation Israel to a barren fig tree in his "Parable of the Fig Tree"...claiming that the barren tree was his nation Israel, and when his followers would see the tree once again blooming with leaves and fruit, they should know that the time of The Final Redemption was very near.

Jesus also taught that there would be many to come in the name of Jesus, but at the time of The Judgement he would tell them "I knew ye not".

It just seems to me like you seem to have a problem with G-d's Plan for Christian Salvation.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Hidden Author, what is your ethnic background?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Hidden Author:  "...For as a reader of the New Testament knows, the Sanhedrin, the scribes and the Pharisees persecuted the Christians as heretics..."

If you knew your Scriptures as you claim to, you would know that all of Jesus' disciples were Jews, and the "crowds and multitudes" which believed in him and followed him were almost entirely Jews as well.

Jesus was a Jew, as was Mary and Joseph and John the Baptist.

It's so blatantly obvious the trouble you're trying to cause, Hidden Author.

But you've missed the meaning and message of the Salvation which you claim to have received:  Had your Lord and Saviour not been persecuted and crucified, there could have been no resurrection to conquer death and atone for the sins of all mankind.

If as you believe, Jesus was G-d made flesh, then his plan to save you and the rest of the world could not have been an "accident of being born at the wrong time and at the wrong place".

Jesus, at his Pesach observance, told his disciples that one of them was to betray him.

He also told his disciples that he was to be handed over to the authorities, tried, and crucified.

Furthermore, Jesus told all of his followers that they would be persecuted and killed for their beliefs.

Jesus, when asked by his disciples when would be the time of the coming of Messiah & Final Judgement, compared his nation Israel to a barren fig tree in his "Parable of the Fig Tree"...claiming that the barren tree was his nation Israel, and when his followers would see the tree once again blooming with leaves and fruit, they should know that the time of The Final Redemption was very near.

Jesus also taught that there would be many to come in the name of Jesus, but at the time of The Judgement he would tell them "I knew ye not".

It just seems to me like you seem to have a problem with G-d's Plan for Christian Salvation.

 Wait your Jewish right? Either way please dont write christian or other religion's teachings on a Jewish forum.

[Lisa]

Wait your Jewish right? Either way please dont write christian or other religion's teachings on a Jewish forum.

Massuh was just using the quotes to get his point across to Hidden Author. 

[Shlomo]

Hitler Author,

You are disgusting. You are no better than the evil pieces of excrement that call us "Christ Killers". Your entire aim, as long as you've posted, has been to try and hurt JTF. You failed miserably and this is yet another attempt to disuade Christian members from supporting JTF.

While pretending to be a Christian where pride comes before a fall, you said:

Basically whenever I've criticized you guys on the forum or on Ask JTF! Remember I'm an intellectual heavyweight and you guys are intellectual lightweights...

Shortly after,  you said:

Keep on fooling yourself...you're a heavyweight masturbator.

Your point being...? 

And you posted a picture with the f-bomb and G-d on it here:

WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass4.jpg

And posted a link to:

http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html

Where things were said like:

Sure, Moses was a great leader, an emancipator of his people and a prophet. Most people don't know that he also was the Biblical equivalent of Splinter Cell's Sam Fisher--a well-honed killing machine, able to slay from the shadows without pity or remorse. Martin Luther King may have had a dream, but Moses had a body count.

So tell me, Hitler Author... are you posting this garbage ON A RELIGIOUS FORUM because you "feel sorry for and want to save the Christians from JTF's clutches"? Or is the real truth that you hate G-d, hate Israel, and hate the Bible and wish to destroy our movement? I think it's obvious. Yup... Hidden is right... deceptive and hidden from the truth. You have some nerve. Why don't you join "Peace Now" or are you already a card carrying member?

You are evil, sick, depraved, so arrogant, and an intellectual moron. I think I just proved my point. I'd like to take that one step further to show how Chaim has answered every one of your questions with logic and reason (and wow, did you look foolish!) and you still look for ways to attack us. You failed miserably and your arrogant ego has a really tough time with that one. Now you pretend to be the Chrisitians' "friend" and show how JTF is supposedly against them? What a joke. You have no idea what we have gone through to make peace and how far out of our way we have gone to show respect to the Christians on this forum. Your statements show your bias, hatred, and disgust for G-d, the Bible, and the Jewish people.

You forgot that one part that says that those who curse Israel (the Jewish people) will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed... but since you aren't really a Christian and you've admitted you are not a Jew, I guess that doesn't really matter to you.

I'll give it a few minutes before your ban so that I can show respect for Lisa (and let her have the honor).

[Wayne Jude]

As an Evangelical Born -Again Christian,[I say this in this manner to let you understand]Plan to on payday make a small donation to JTF.Should I send money to ADL  or anyother liberal Jewish organisation?I have nothing in comman with nor do I like where or what they  say their doing? I say no!
wayne jude

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

The question of the poll "Is funding JTF compatible with Christianity?" is the wrong one.

The poll has to give the following options:

[] I want to fight together

[] I want to die alone

[MasterWolf1]

Hidden Author I am a Christian and your kind of language or method isn't really very Christian of you and spewing false claims you do give Christianity a bad name.   As a Catholic myself which is a limb of Christianity it does [censored] me off when someone send off false content about Christianity cause then we get a bad name for our beliefs.  And Jews aren't Christ Killers, if anything the Romans did kill Christ.  A true Christian that sees what you post will think you are nuts cause you are preaching false claims.  I love my Jewish friends as I love my Christian friends.  But if you going to be false that doesn't help us at all.  Now we both got a common goal we want a better world for the future for all of us.  Why some people continue to want to put wedges I have no idea.

[Hidden Author]

Hitler Author,

You are disgusting. You are no better than the evil pieces of excrement that call us "Christ Killers". Your entire aim, as long as you've posted, has been to try and hurt JTF. You failed miserably and this is yet another attempt to disuade Christian members from supporting JTF.

While pretending to be a Christian where pride comes before a fall, you said:

Basically whenever I've criticized you guys on the forum or on Ask JTF! Remember I'm an intellectual heavyweight and you guys are intellectual lightweights...

Shortly after,  you said:

Keep on fooling yourself...you're a heavyweight masturbator.

Your point being...? 

And you posted a picture with the f-bomb and G-d on it here:

WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/badass4.jpg

And posted a link to:

http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html

Where things were said like:

Sure, Moses was a great leader, an emancipator of his people and a prophet. Most people don't know that he also was the Biblical equivalent of Splinter Cell's Sam Fisher--a well-honed killing machine, able to slay from the shadows without pity or remorse. Martin Luther King may have had a dream, but Moses had a body count.

So tell me, Hitler Author... are you posting this garbage ON A RELIGIOUS FORUM because you "feel sorry for and want to save the Christians from JTF's clutches"? Or is the real truth that you hate G-d, hate Israel, and hate the Bible and wish to destroy our movement? I think it's obvious. Yup... Hidden is right... deceptive and hidden from the truth. You have some nerve. Why don't you join "Peace Now" or are you already a card carrying member?

You are evil, sick, depraved, so arrogant, and an intellectual moron. I think I just proved my point. I'd like to take that one step further to show how Chaim has answered every one of your questions with logic and reason (and wow, did you look foolish!) and you still look for ways to attack us. You failed miserably and your arrogant ego has a really tough time with that one. Now you pretend to be the Chrisitians' "friend" and show how JTF is supposedly against them? What a joke. You have no idea what we have gone through to make peace and how far out of our way we have gone to show respect to the Christians on this forum. Your statements show your bias, hatred, and disgust for G-d, the Bible, and the Jewish people.

You forgot that one part that says that those who curse Israel (the Jewish people) will be cursed and those who bless Israel will be blessed... but since you aren't really a Christian and you've admitted you are not a Jew, I guess that doesn't really matter to you.

I'll give it a few minutes before your ban so that I can show respect for Lisa (and let her have the honor).

Look even though I was baptized a Catholic sometimes I have trouble keeping the faith. Perhaps that's why atheist arguments or even humor doesn't faze me. But when people express the desire to physically harm Christians or slander Jesus Christ by portraying Him like Osama bin Laden (this was on another forum, I'm not accusing you), I feel distraught because

• my family is Christian
• the people I live among are largely Christian
• America is largely Christian
• While I have my doubts, there is still some residual Christianity in my heart

Now I don't approve of pogroms or other anti-Semitic activity--obviously blaming all Jews for killing Christ is absurd. But when people persecute Christians for their faith in the name of Judaism, it seems like they are copying the New Testament Pharisees. Jews should not be judged more harshly for any action than Gentiles committing the same action but neither should they be judged any less harshly.

So to sum it all up:

• Not all Jews are Christ-killers!!!
• But those who persecute people for being Christian are behaving like Pharisees.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Hidden Author, do you want to become Jewish?

[Shlomo]

Not all Jews are Christ-killers!!!

Sick. Oh ya... that's better. Not ALL of them.

You are banned.

[Wayne Jude]

That one was weird, but funny.

[Daniel Ben Hanania]

Very simple, and I think everyone on this forum will support me:

I HATE Missionaries(period!!!)