Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?
Dr. Dan:
Listen...there are some arguements for and against premarital sex.
Idealistically, everyone should be remain a virgin until they get married. Realistically, it's another story. Given the environment, society, and temptations, it's not that simple for a man to stay a virgin until he gets married. It's a little bit easier for a woman, I believe.
If a man chooses to willy nilly have premarital sex, it may affect them in a very negative way in the sense he might treat all women including his wife like a piece of meat and not be loyal to her. On a practical end, sometimes premarital sex for a man helps him "get it out of his system" so that he would be more true and faithful for his future wife.
I personally will not argue for either thing. All I will say is that men ought to treat women with full respect and not treat them like a piece of meat. Look for a wife and love her and have a family with her and look at no one else or desire anyone else.
My point is, a man should do whatever it takes for him to be able to be that way and love his wife. If it means that he has to get it out of his system before he settles down, as long as he doesn't forget his way, then it make sense to me. However, there is a danger when a man does that for healthy and mental reasons.
If a man is able to sustain a family at a young age and be able to have enough control to not be with other women once he is married, then he should do that.
An idealistic society would never encourage premarital sex, I would support movements and groups that do that for their environment.
shimon:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 12, 2008, 12:37:45 PM ---you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
--- End quote ---
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
q_q_:
--- Quote from: shimon on June 12, 2008, 03:00:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 12, 2008, 12:37:45 PM ---you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
--- End quote ---
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
--- End quote ---
I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.
Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html
along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..
the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife.. It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)
prob less paper work ;-)
jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives, prob not concubines though.
ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!
I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..
ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.
You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..
a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
so crtainly a bad thing
b)spilling semen is forbidden..
just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape. if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.
shimon:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 12, 2008, 05:18:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: shimon on June 12, 2008, 03:00:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 12, 2008, 12:37:45 PM ---you may want to correct the quoting of your post.
Torah can mean talmud. Mishna. Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.
So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law. Looks a bit karaite.
And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places. If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.
I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe.
--- End quote ---
fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex
--- End quote ---
I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.
Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html
along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..
the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife.. It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)
prob less paper work ;-)
jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives, prob not concubines though.
ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!
I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..
ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.
You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..
a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
so crtainly a bad thing
b)spilling semen is forbidden..
just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape. if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.
--- End quote ---
ok good post. But if you are born to two unmarried parents you are not considered a bastard or mamzer.
And having more than one wife is sometimes a mitzvah if the wife was married to your brother but he dies
q_q_:
yep.. I was thinking at the time I paste that translation that the definition of mamzer had some issue.
indeed.. A mamzer is a specific form of bastard. There is no concept of bastard - at least in tenach..
a bastard is a child born out of wedlock. Or rather, of parents that have not been wed to each other.
a mamzer is a child born out of an adulterous act.. (at least one partner married, but not to the one they had sex with)..
so if neither are married.. i.e. pre marital sex. it's a bastard but not a mamzer..
right?
Regarding the tenach and pre matiral sex though.. That pasuk by telling "the pair" to get married, is implying they should have been married.
good to know there's nothing wrong with the child though!
Whereas I read somewhere that the label of mamzer lasts for something like 10 generations..
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