Persian Jews

[Dr. Dan]

Persian Jews are Sefaradim, correct?

Can Sefaradim attend Ashkenazi synagogues and vice versa, or is there a strict code of separation?

Actually, C.F., if you really wanted to split hairs, the Iranian Jews are technically Mizrachis, since they're not from Spain. 

As for your second question, it's not a matter of any strict code of separation.  Like I said before, the Iranians are a clannish bunch.  Therefore, the Iranians originally from the northern city of Meshad, have their two Mashadi Synagogues, and the Tehranis have their Synagogues as well. 

There are also differences in how the services are conducted.  The Ashkenazi Synagogues have cantors, who lead the congregation in singing the prayers, along with their rabbis.  Their rabbis will also conduct sermons/speeches on either current events, or the Torah portion being covered. 

For a long time, the Mashadi Synagogue didn't even have a rabbi.  They had one who quit, and then they hired Rabbi Biton.  Generally, the Iranians chant all the prayers, and the women gossip loudly in the back.  You don't have the rabbis giving speeches. 

I remember once going to the Mashadi where the old rabbi gave a speech about current events.  He touched upon child abuse, Elizabeth Smart, etc.  The Iranians weren't used to it.  So when the rabbi was done, they all clapped for him out of politeness. 

Also, you'll *never* hear any Iranian Jew saying "Well my Rebbe said blah blah blah, and that's why I'm doing such and such."  It's not they don't respect rabbis.  But they'll first listen to their parents, or the elders in the community.  My parents think this way.  My mother often says of young rabbis that they might mean well, but that they're simply people who've gone to rabbinical school for a few years. 

Lisa...i was able to find out that my relatives from 100's of years ago, at least were from Spain and made their way into Persia...so it's possible that many Persian Jews are a combination of Mizrachi and Sefardi.

[Lisa]

Is there a Persian rabbinical teaching that forbids any civic involvement in the Galut for Iranian Jews?

No.  It's more a matter of trying to keep out of trouble.  Back in Iran, those Jews that were involved in any way with the Shah were killed by Khomeini's goons. 

And there's one more caveat when it comes to reaching out to the Persians. 

They tend to stear clear of anything that comes across to them as religious fanaticism.  Like Dr. Dan, they believe in moderation when it comes to religion.  But that's not to say they don't follow the Jewish laws or observe the mitzvot and the High Holidays.  But they don't go hanging onto every single word a rabbi says.  If anything they believe in learning for themselves and practicing Judaism to the best of their understanding and ability. 

So my advice to Chaim is to keep his message positive.  The best and fastest way to turn these people off would be to speak badly of the establishment Jewish leaders.  Now granted, Chaim has valid points against them.  And it's definitely funny listening to him tear these people apart.  But when dealing with the Persian Jews, Chaim needs to point out factually why he would be better for Israel than these other groups, and why the other groups do more harm than good. He needs to do that without calling them kikes and pigs, or wishing cancer on them. 

The Iranian Jews place a very high value on good manners and pleasantness.  So it would behoove us all to remember that. 

[RationalThought110]

I wanted to thank you, Chaim, for you homage of Persian Jews...It's definately something worthwhile to look into to see if any would be willing to partake in a movement like this one.

I have come across a few that are pro-AIPAC, and consider Kahane to be an extremist, yet they have never read or learned about anything Kahane has said and how much forthsight he had on the issues of Israel and it's friendly neightbors...

However, there are others who are reasonable Jews who agree with what this movement says and hope for the worst for Israel's enemies. However, these Persians only hope and are not into activism.

Then you have the religious Shirazi ones who are 100% in line with Kahane and even into activism. However, they don't have much money.

Coming from this community, many of the Persian Jews do come together to help fellow Jews pay for college or support Israel's other movements...except they need to hear us and why their donations are not for as good a use as it coudl be for JTF. 

Another thing which I observe about many of the wealthy wealthy persian jews is that a lot of them seem to be stuck in their own lives and their own status and business and really couldn't care that much about anything else.  Unfortunately, it might become their demise if those types begin to make money their G-d.

How can we reach the Persian community with our message and in a non missionizing way?  And the same goes with the Jewish Syrian communites of Deal, NJ and Brooklyn?

Some of the people involved with AIPAC are definitely left-wing.  Regardless of what the organization claims, Israel is not a top priority of AIPAC's.  Many people falsely assume that Israel is a top priority of AIPAC.  Consequently, many of AIPAC's critics are anti-Israel.   

So it shouldn't surprise you if an AIPAC person were to say something negative about Kahane.  You shouldn't assume that being pro-AIPAC is a good thing.

[Lisa]

Lisa...i was able to find out that my relatives from 100's of years ago, at least were from Spain and made their way into Persia...so it's possible that many Persian Jews are a combination of Mizrachi and Sefaradi.

Good point Dr. Dan.  Some of them might be a little bit of both.  But then again, I'm just writing based on what my mother told me about the Mashadi Jews. 

[Dr. Dan]

I wanted to thank you, Chaim, for you homage of Persian Jews...It's definately something worthwhile to look into to see if any would be willing to partake in a movement like this one.

I have come across a few that are pro-AIPAC, and consider Kahane to be an extremist, yet they have never read or learned about anything Kahane has said and how much forthsight he had on the issues of Israel and it's friendly neightbors...

However, there are others who are reasonable Jews who agree with what this movement says and hope for the worst for Israel's enemies. However, these Persians only hope and are not into activism.

Then you have the religious Shirazi ones who are 100% in line with Kahane and even into activism. However, they don't have much money.

Coming from this community, many of the Persian Jews do come together to help fellow Jews pay for college or support Israel's other movements...except they need to hear us and why their donations are not for as good a use as it coudl be for JTF. 

Another thing which I observe about many of the wealthy wealthy persian jews is that a lot of them seem to be stuck in their own lives and their own status and business and really couldn't care that much about anything else.  Unfortunately, it might become their demise if those types begin to make money their G-d.

How can we reach the Persian community with our message and in a non missionizing way?  And the same goes with the Jewish Syrian communites of Deal, NJ and Brooklyn?

Some of the people involved with AIPAC are definitely left-wing.  Regardless of what the organization claims, Israel is not a top priority of AIPAC's.  Many people falsely assume that Israel is a top priority of AIPAC.  Consequently, many of AIPAC's critics are anti-Israel.   

So it shouldn't surprise you if an AIPAC person were to say something negative about Kahane.  You shouldn't assume that being pro-AIPAC is a good thing.

Never assumed it..I know some Persian Jews (one of which I sent one of Chaim's videos) tried to recruit me or get me to recruit young Jewish singles to their group at teh Israeli day parade.  Then I showed him my Mier kahane book and "not one inch" t-shirt i had recently purchased that he said, "Oh he's an extremist...we only deal with movements that are mainstream. And he laughed at me."  As my friend my calming me down, I thought to myself, "Let's see who gets the last laugh..."

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well, Lisa, I'm hoping that recent events with Ahmadinejad will convince them to be less neutral and detached from political issues. It's worth a shot. If even 20% of the audiences of these synagogues receive Chaim favorably, that will be a huge step.

I can't say that I understand why Iranian Jews would eschew all politial involvement just because of the brutal repression back in Iran. I mean--they came to America to flee that savagery, right? They ought to have some level of faith in American leaders by now. Do they actually fear that there could be a Shoah in America if they don't keep their views to themselves, or what? No offense, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Why do you think you left the sphere of Iranian Jewish disinterest, Lisa, and became a hardcore conservative who speaks out constantly on Jewish, American, and world issues? Are you rejected for this in the Iranian Jewish community?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Generally, the Iranians chant all the prayers, and the women gossip loudly in the back. 

ROTFLMAO 

[Lisa]

I can't say that I understand why Iranian Jews would eschew all politial involvement just because of the brutal repression back in Iran. I mean--they came to America to flee that savagery, right? They ought to have some level of faith in American leaders by now. Do they actually fear that there could be a Shoah in America if they don't keep their views to themselves, or what? No offense, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

I think the Iranian Jews, like the Ashanazis have become cynical from experience.  They've seen how Jews get scapegoated for things that aren't their fault.  So they keep a low profile.  That's not to say they don't appreciate being here.  But they're not that trusting.

Now for your second question...I was born and raised in the U.S.  When I was growing up, there were very few Iranian Jewish families in Great Neck.  So my parents would not have had a leg to stand on if they had told me not to be friends with other Americans.  It also helps that I have two older sisters, one of whom married an American Ashkenaz. 

But now Great Neck has changed.  It has probably the largest Jewish Iranian population in America.  And most of them came here right after the revolution, together.  So they already have a group to socialize with, work with and pray with.  In fact, many Mashadi's are very strict about who their children can be friends with, or marry.  (At my age, my parents would be happy with me marrying anyone, as long as it would be a Jew.)

And I was always a shy person.  I never had large groups of friends.  One of my sisters went away to college, and I followed in her footsteps.  But I used to be more liberal when I was younger. 

My shift to the right began in my early thirties.  It started when I read Ayn Rand's Magnum Opus Atlas Shrugged, and got into full swing when I stumbled upon Chaim Ben Pesach on Manhattan Neighborhood Network public television. 

Throughout this time, I found that I enjoyed writing.  The story of how I decided to start blogging is for another post.  But suffice it to say my parents think it's a waste of time, and that I should be focusing on more lucrative pursuits, along with finding a husband. 

[Dr. Dan]

Is there a Persian rabbinical teaching that forbids any civic involvement in the Galut for Iranian Jews?

No.  It's more a matter of trying to keep out of trouble.  Back in Iran, those Jews that were involved in any way with the Shah were killed by Khomeini's goons. 

And there's one more caveat when it comes to reaching out to the Persians. 

They tend to stear clear of anything that comes across to them as religious fanaticism.  Like Dr. Dan, they believe in moderation when it comes to religion.  But that's not to say they don't follow the Jewish laws or observe the mitzvot and the High Holidays.  But they don't go hanging onto every single word a rabbi says.  If anything they believe in learning for themselves and practicing Judaism to the best of their understanding and ability. 

So my advice to Chaim is to keep his message positive.  The best and fastest way to turn these people off would be to speak badly of the establishment Jewish leaders.  Now granted, Chaim has valid points against them.  And it's definitely funny listening to him tear these people apart.  But when dealing with the Persian Jews, Chaim needs to point out factually why he would be better for Israel than these other groups, and why the other groups do more harm than good. He needs to do that without calling them kikes and pigs, or wishing cancer on them. 

The Iranian Jews place a very high value on good manners and pleasantness.  So it would behoove us all to remember that. 

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!

I hate to say this, but many Persians tend to gravitate towards the conservative movement due to this "Judaism in moderation"...Once again you have those who have become hardcore almost to Tzvi ben Roshel's liking, but not that far.  There are yet still more recent (Fresh off the Boat) persians who are religious and shomer shabbat etc...but not hassidish and firebrand...they do their thing and leave everyone else alone.

Lisa, what should we tell Chaim?  I think this will be a great place to start..and I do have confidence that Chaim will gain some supporters..but hopefully more than just some.

[Dr. Dan]

Well, Lisa, I'm hoping that recent events with Ahmadinejad will convince them to be less neutral and detached from political issues. It's worth a shot. If even 20% of the audiences of these synagogues receive Chaim favorably, that will be a huge step.

I can't say that I understand why Iranian Jews would eschew all politial involvement just because of the brutal repression back in Iran. I mean--they came to America to flee that savagery, right? They ought to have some level of faith in American leaders by now. Do they actually fear that there could be a Shoah in America if they don't keep their views to themselves, or what? No offense, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Why do you think you left the sphere of Iranian Jewish disinterest, Lisa, and became a hardcore conservative who speaks out constantly on Jewish, American, and world issues? Are you rejected for this in the Iranian Jewish community?

It doesn't make much sense to me either, CF...I worry about the Persian Jews of the USA...not just with their assimilation..that's nothing to me..but many of the wealthy people's Jewish values. I have the perception that more and more of this community are losing their way...Of course I might be wrong...but materialism is a form of idolatry..that is when someone uses material as a means to be consider himself special and nothing more.

[Dr. Dan]

I can't say that I understand why Iranian Jews would eschew all politial involvement just because of the brutal repression back in Iran. I mean--they came to America to flee that savagery, right? They ought to have some level of faith in American leaders by now. Do they actually fear that there could be a Shoah in America if they don't keep their views to themselves, or what? No offense, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

I think the Iranian Jews, like the Ashanazis have become cynical from experience.  They've seen how Jews get scapegoated for things that aren't their fault.  So they keep a low profile.  That's not to say they don't appreciate being here.  But they're not that trusting.

Now for your second question...I was born and raised in the U.S.  When I was growing up, there were very few Iranian Jewish families in Great Neck.  So my parents would not have had a leg to stand on if they had told me not to be friends with other Americans.  It also helps that I have two older sisters, one of whom married an American Ashkenaz. 

But now Great Neck has changed.  It has probably the largest Jewish Iranian population in America.  And most of them came here right after the revolution, together.  So they already have a group to socialize with, work with and pray with.  In fact, many Mashadi's are very strict about who their children can be friends with, or marry.  (At my age, my parents would be happy with me marrying anyone, as long as it would be a Jew.)

And I was always a shy person.  I never had large groups of friends.  One of my sisters went away to college, and I followed in her footsteps.  But I used to be more liberal when I was younger. 

My shift to the right began in my early thirties.  It started when I read Ayn Rand's Magnum Opus Atlas Shrugged, and got into full swing when I stumbled upon Chaim Ben Pesach on Manhattan Neighborhood Network public television. 

Throughout this time, I found that I enjoyed writing.  The story of how I decided to start blogging is for another post.  But suffice it to say my parents think it's a waste of time, and that I should be focusing on more lucrative pursuits, along with finding a husband. 

Correction: beverly Hills and surrounding areas has the largest Jewish Persian concentration and population.

And I only agree wtih at least one thing your parents are saying: finding a husband..all righteous people should be married and if they can, have children too.

[Lisa]

Dr. Dan, Chaim should read this entire thread when he can. 

He can also contact these Synagogues to see what the procedure is to arrange a speaking engagement.  There's also the option of making flyers to send to these Synagogues.  He could call these places and let them know that he's mailing the flyers, and ask them to be put up where members can see them. 

Or, he can take a trip out to Great Neck one Saturday and attend the services, and then try and get a few minutes with the rabbi and introduce himself personally and tell him about JTF.  He could do this a few times, and meet with the rabbis of each of the Synagogues. 

Another option would be to take out some ads in the Mashadi and Tehrani publications, that come out once ever two or three months.  The main Mashadi publication is called The Megillah.  Here's the website for the Mashadi Youth Committee, that publishes it:

http://www.mycweb.com/publications.asp

If you think of anything else, Dr. Dan, please post away. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What would be the attitude of average Iranian Jewish parents and rabbis to see Iranian Jews marrying non-Iranian Jews? Is there severe condemnation, or is it something they disagree with but get over?

I just think it's ridiculous to be blunt, that the various sects and clans of Judaism are more interested in cutting themselves off from everybody and preserving their own uniqueness than uniting and realizing that they, and all of their brothers and sisters in the faith, are a despised minority throughout the world who must stick together and support their nation (Israel), regardless of how flawed it is now.

[Lisa]

What would be the attitude of average Iranian Jewish parents and rabbis to see Iranian Jews marrying non-Iranian Jews? Is there severe condemnation, or is it something they disagree with but get over?

I just think it's ridiculous to be blunt, that the various sects and clans of Judaism are more interested in cutting themselves off from everybody and preserving their own uniqueness than uniting and realizing that they, and all of their brothers and sisters in the faith, are a despised minority throughout the world who must stick together and support their nation (Israel), regardless of how flawed it is now.

According to an old Iranian saying, home baked bread is better than anything you would buy in a store.  The reason the Mashadis (the Tehranis are a bit more mellow) favor marrying only in the community is because everyone knows everyone else.  As my mother often says to me, "You know which families are known for being honest, which families are known not so honest, which families are known for being very religious, etc."  So to answer your question, they wouldn't severely condemn marrying a non-Iranian Jew.  They would definitely get over it.  But their first choice would be a Mashadi.

I agree with the second part of your post.  Us Jews need to focus on the things we have in common, rather than our differences. 

[Lisa]

And I only agree wtih at least one thing your parents are saying: finding a husband..all righteous people should be married and if they can, have children too.

Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with dating/relationships.  I'm convinced it will never happen for me. 

[Dr. Dan]

Dr. Dan, Chaim should read this entire thread when he can. 

He can also contact these Synagogues to see what the procedure is to arrange a speaking engagement.  There's also the option of making flyers to send to these Synagogues.  He could call these places and let them know that he's mailing the flyers, and ask them to be put up where members can see them. 

Or, he can take a trip out to Great Neck one Saturday and attend the services, and then try and get a few minutes with the rabbi and introduce himself personally and tell him about JTF.  He could do this a few times, and meet with the rabbis of each of the Synagogues. 

Another option would be to take out some ads in the Mashadi and Tehrani publications, that come out once ever two or three months.  The main Mashadi publication is called The Megillah.  Here's the website for the Mashadi Youth Committee, that publishes it:

http://www.mycweb.com/publications.asp

If you think of anything else, Dr. Dan, please post away. 

correction...to travel there on a friday and not saturday

[Dr. Dan]

What would be the attitude of average Iranian Jewish parents and rabbis to see Iranian Jews marrying non-Iranian Jews? Is there severe condemnation, or is it something they disagree with but get over?

I just think it's ridiculous to be blunt, that the various sects and clans of Judaism are more interested in cutting themselves off from everybody and preserving their own uniqueness than uniting and realizing that they, and all of their brothers and sisters in the faith, are a despised minority throughout the world who must stick together and support their nation (Israel), regardless of how flawed it is now.

CF, I agree wtih you...jews are jews..and righteous jews are righteous Jews.

but one coudl say the same about christians and americans...Black or white, we are all Americans..right?  Some might disagree and only gravitate to the race they are more attracted to physically.

With cultures, despite the similarity in religion, some feel comfortable sticking to their own.

Persian Americans generally prefer to be with other persians as long as they are Jewish...others don't care.

My preference is Persian, but I don't rule out non-Persian Americans. Persians have had a similar upbringing as myself and i feel more comfortable with that...me and my future wife will be on the same page more often than not raising our children.  But if any of children wanted to marry a Jew of a different culture and she was a wonderful person from a wonderful family, I would give my outmost blessing...

I can't speak for Mashadi Persian Jews, but I have learned that many, but not all, only stick with Mashadi Persians. Am I right about this, Lisa?

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa, I remember a few months ago you started a thread in which you were asking for info regarding a possible move. I remember you were asking about apartment prices in various neighborhoods. I was wondering why you werent interested in moving to great neck. Maybe you will have many people with a similar background to yours over there.

[Dr. Dan]

And I only agree wtih at least one thing your parents are saying: finding a husband..all righteous people should be married and if they can, have children too.

Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with dating/relationships.  I'm convinced it will never happen for me. 

Never say "Never", Lisa.  You are a wonderful wonderful wonderful human being and there are plenty of guys out there who would love to be wtih someone like you...Please please please bite your tongue when you say that...

[DownwithIslam]

Lisa, did you ever consider moving to great neck to be with fellow persian jews. Don't you think it might help the dating situation. I would deff look into this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Unfortunately I've had terrible luck with dating/relationships.  I'm convinced it will never happen for me. 

This is a terrible attitude to have. You are still young and you are nice-looking, and you have a TON to offer intellectually. You need to look to G-d for a mate, not the consensus of human opinion.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

CF, I agree wtih you...jews are jews..and righteous jews are righteous Jews.

but one coudl say the same about christians and americans...Black or white, we are all Americans..right?  Some might disagree and only gravitate to the race they are more attracted to physically.

I would be open to marrying any woman who is a genuine Christian who has the attributes I need and who I find attractive (sorry if that looks shallow, but attraction is what distinguishes a relationship from a friendship).

[Dr. Dan]

CF, I agree wtih you...jews are jews..and righteous jews are righteous Jews.

but one coudl say the same about christians and americans...Black or white, we are all Americans..right?  Some might disagree and only gravitate to the race they are more attracted to physically.

I would be open to marrying any woman who is a genuine Christian who has the attributes I need and who I find attractive (sorry if that looks shallow, but attraction is what distinguishes a relationship from a friendship).

that's the right way to go about it..

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Slightly off-topic, but how do Persian Jews get along with Satmar in NYC? Aren't the Satmar so fanatical and cultic that they consider all non-Satmar Jews to be goyim?

[RationalThought110]

What would be the attitude of average Iranian Jewish parents and rabbis to see Iranian Jews marrying non-Iranian Jews? Is there severe condemnation, or is it something they disagree with but get over?

I just think it's ridiculous to be blunt, that the various sects and clans of Judaism are more interested in cutting themselves off from everybody and preserving their own uniqueness than uniting and realizing that they, and all of their brothers and sisters in the faith, are a despised minority throughout the world who must stick together and support their nation (Israel), regardless of how flawed it is now.

C.F.,

     You are correct. 

     

     That type of attitude would be a condescending one where they would consider others to be inferior to them. 

     
     There are plenty of Sefardic-Ashkenazic Jews who are married to each other.   Maybe some people have a problem with that. 


        It's a little disappointing that some like the mayor who I mentioned, didn't speak out about how Iran was a bigger threat than Iraq.  He may have been able to have some influence due to his background.  Instead, he probably supported the position of the establishment,which involves following the NWO agenda.