Author Topic: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?  (Read 1848 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« on: September 02, 2008, 12:48:02 AM »
Some say that the LHC which will be ready for sept 10th poses a great risk to Earth and even the whole Universe by creating Black Holes, strangelets, or changing the dimensions. What have you read? And if it dangerous...would nations and individuals try to stop it? What about Israel?
BTW, the supposedly most dangerous experiments are planned for Oct 21th, just one day after Hoshana Rabah, and Rav Kaduri z"l said Moshich would come no longer than this Hoshana Rabah 2008. Would it mean that Mashiach would come in the last time to save Earth?

Offline Muck DeFuslims

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2008, 07:53:20 AM »
Some say that the LHC which will be ready for sept 10th poses a great risk to Earth and even the whole Universe by creating Black Holes, strangelets, or changing the dimensions. What have you read? And if it dangerous...would nations and individuals try to stop it? What about Israel?
BTW, the supposedly most dangerous experiments are planned for Oct 21th, just one day after Hoshana Rabah, and Rav Kaduri z"l said Moshich would come no longer than this Hoshana Rabah 2008. Would it mean that Mashiach would come in the last time to save Earth?

After spending years and billions of dollars to build the collider, it's definitely going to be used. Some individuals might be opposed to it, but it's going to happen.

Is it going to endanger the earth and the universe ? Highly unlikely. Particle collisions such as the ones the collider can create have undoubtably occurred naturally throughout the universe before.

Supposedly this collider will determine whether the theoretical Higgs particle actually exists. This determination is supposed to answer many questions about the fundamental nature of matter and the universe itself.

My guess is that for every answer to the questions regarding the mystery of the origin of the universe that the LHC provides, it will also raise many further questions that will be unanswerable.

The very first Hebrew letter of Genesis is shaped like a backwards 'c', and this is a strong hint that what came before or led up to the 'Big Bang' is unknowable and beyond the comprehension of man.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2008, 01:07:05 PM »
They say the risk is about 1:50.000.000, very low, but.... who are they to decide whcih kind of risk we want to take? Isn't it a vilolation of human rights and the sovereighnty of nations? Have they consulted Israel, for instance, if they are interested in taking the risk?
If nothing happens, B'Ezrat Hashem, they should equally be sued.

Offline Ulli

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10946
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2008, 03:40:39 PM »
This is imo schmu Raul. Imagine what powers occur in the universe. Whole stars explode and are becoming. Alone if the sun erupts are crackling miardes of particles on our atmosphere. There are much higher powers than this accellerator ever will produce and nothing serious happens.  ;)
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2008, 03:46:04 PM »
They say the risk is about 1:50.000.000, very low, but.... who are they to decide whcih kind of risk we want to take? Isn't it a vilolation of human rights and the sovereighnty of nations? Have they consulted Israel, for instance, if they are interested in taking the risk?
If nothing happens, B'Ezrat Hashem, they should equally be sued.

How did they come up with that risk?

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2008, 03:57:25 PM »
They say the risk is about 1:50.000.000, very low, but.... who are they to decide whcih kind of risk we want to take? Isn't it a vilolation of human rights and the sovereighnty of nations? Have they consulted Israel, for instance, if they are interested in taking the risk?
If nothing happens, B'Ezrat Hashem, they should equally be sued.

How did they come up with that risk?


I just don't know. I am not a scientist. But a scientist who opposes the project says that if Hawkings is right nothing will happen, but if Einstein was totally correct, there's a chance of 75% that Eaarth would be destroyed. Now, most scientist claims that Einstein was not fully correct, but untill now his theory is used succesfully to fix the GPS clocks. I haven't heard that any of Hawkings' theories have been proved.
Do any of you know where individuals can claim for their human rights?

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2008, 04:14:31 PM »
They say the risk is about 1:50.000.000, very low, but.... who are they to decide whcih kind of risk we want to take? Isn't it a vilolation of human rights and the sovereighnty of nations? Have they consulted Israel, for instance, if they are interested in taking the risk?
If nothing happens, B'Ezrat Hashem, they should equally be sued.

How did they come up with that risk?


I just don't know. I am not a scientist. But a scientist who opposes the project says that if Hawkings is right nothing will happen, but if Einstein was totally correct, there's a chance of 75% that Eaarth would be destroyed. Now, most scientist claims that Einstein was not fully correct, but untill now his theory is used succesfully to fix the GPS clocks. I haven't heard that any of Hawkings' theories have been proved.
Do any of you know where individuals can claim for their human rights?

Well, that doesnt make me feel any better.  I better make a bucket list :)

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 04:26:57 PM »
If this experiment succeeds, it is well and good.

If this experiment fails, it is OK.

But what if this experiment fails catastrophically. With an enlarging black hole no one will be able to know.

There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 04:45:25 PM »
If this experiment succeeds, it is well and good.

If this experiment fails, it is OK.

But what if this experiment fails catastrophically. With an enlarging black hole no one will be able to know.



That's what I mean. They have no right to endanger the world. They are scientists, but sicience has made many silly (though until now harmless) mistakes. Why can't they make a silly and dangerous mistake as well?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 05:12:02 PM »
The World Will End When Hashem wishes it to, not before, not after...

muman613
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ulli

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10946
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 05:26:21 PM »
The World Will End When Hashem wishes it to, not before, not after...

muman613


Exactly   :)
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 05:29:43 PM »
The World Will End When Hashem wishes it to, not before, not after...

muman613


Exactly   :)

So fear not...  :)
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10687
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 05:33:06 PM »
From a Jewish point a view, I think God has some future plans for us, yet unfulfilled, so he wouldn't allow an experiment to turn into a premature apocalypse. But on the other hand if we force God to intervene against the natural odds just, may be it is a grave sin...

As to the date of the Moshiach's arrival- Rav Kaduri could only guess, he was not a prophet. Many great scholars, including the Ramban and the Rambam have guessed it wrong. The common thing to all of them is that they guessed a date relatively close to their own time.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008, 06:56:33 PM »
I think God wants us to learn about science.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 07:15:36 PM »
I think G-d wants us to learn about science.

Sience is ok, but I think that trying to know the secrets of the Creation is a sin. As long as they don't harm others I don't care. It's their sin. But when it may be dangerous......
This experiment is intended to discover the origin of the world, and I have read that the Sages said that whoever inquires about what was before the Creation, it would be better for him if he had never been born.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1957
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2008, 09:32:34 PM »
I have read that besides the possibilties of LHC leading to an immediate disaster or being harmless, there is also a chance that it could produce neutral black hole which would destroy Earth, not now, but in ten or hundred thousands of years. Is that chance is high, would you think scientists of today would care? I don't think so. We already know that no civilization lasts for more than a millenium (except for Israel). If they forsee a long time risk for Earth and Humanity, they would probably think that men of the future are not worth, since they will surely not be fron their civilization.
Most European policies are based on the idea tha Europe will be Muslim in less than a century. The most likely scenario is that (except for Jews) all nations would be destroyed by Muslims who at their time will destroy themselves, and civilization will be rebuilt in a different way by those who survive. Would Western bigotry care about a possible post Islam civilzation of the future, constituted by new righteous nations and Isarel? Suerely not. If they don't care to save their own civilization, they would probable not care to keep the Earth for a new mankind, and even prefer its destruction. Of course, this civilization may be saved by Redemption, and so, they should care about Earth. But those atheist scientists don't believe in Hashem, and so they see no future. No wonder if they don't care about the possible destruction of Earth or even wish it (as long as it is not so quick to kill them)
Let's pray to Hashem to save us from those heretic atheist and selfish men.

Here's a text:

The LSAG report states that:

“ Stable black holes could be either electrically charged or neutral. [...] If stable microscopic black holes had no electric charge, their interactions with the Earth would be very weak. Those produced by cosmic rays would pass harmlessly through the Earth into space, whereas those produced by the LHC could remain on Earth. However, there are much larger and denser astronomical bodies than the Earth in the Universe. Black holes produced in cosmic-ray collisions with bodies such as neutron stars and white dwarf stars would be brought to rest. The continued existence of such dense bodies, as well as the Earth, rules out the possibility of the LHC producing any dangerous black holes.[8] ”

They admit that a neutral black hole could remain on Earth and interact, though very weakly. They mention giant stars which exist for a long time, even when neutral nini-Black holes (if they exist) would surely have hit them, and been captured. The implications are clear!!!! Stars, (millions of times heavier than Earth) resist for millions of years, however our planet could only resist a few milleniums. It means that if nini black holes are electrically neutral, those ones produced by cosmic rays have never and will never remain in Earth, and could only remain on heavy stars. Those stars are not affected in a time we can see it, and Earth could be destroyed only by a black hole created in a collider.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 09:37:58 PM by Raulmarrio2000 »

Offline P J C

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2378
  • Liberty and Justice for All
    • Take Back the West
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2008, 09:41:12 PM »
Maybe it will swallow Al Gore's private jet.
"A wise man's heart directs him toward the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him toward the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 02:00:17 AM »
I think G-d wants us to learn about science.

Sience is ok, but I think that trying to know the secrets of the Creation is a sin. As long as they don't harm others I don't care. It's their sin. But when it may be dangerous......
This experiment is intended to discover the origin of the world, and I have read that the Sages said that whoever inquires about what was before the Creation, it would be better for him if he had never been born.

I thought G-d gave Mankind dominion over the natural creation. How can we utilize it if we don't understand it? I would think that G-d would want us to explore His creation.

Understanding how particles work could lead to all kinds of advances that could make life easier. The first step is the pure science, knowing for the sake of knowing. Later come the scientists that try to find applications for the new knowledge.

As for the mini black holes I don't think we need to worry. G-d will not allow the earth to be destroyed unless He wills it. By the time anything like that would happen I'm sure there would be settlements on Mars and other places anyway.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 02:03:52 AM by Rubystars »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2008, 02:49:15 AM »
From a Jewish point a view, I think G-d has some future plans for us, yet unfulfilled, so he wouldn't allow an experiment to turn into a premature apocalypse. But on the other hand if we force G-d to intervene against the natural odds just, may be it is a grave sin...

As to the date of the Moshiach's arrival- Rav Kaduri could only guess, he was not a prophet. Many great scholars, including the Ramban and the Rambam have guessed it wrong. The common thing to all of them is that they guessed a date relatively close to their own time.

Right.  And probably because it is an article of faith to believe that Moschiach will come soon.   As in, maybe tomorrow.  So it is fitting that they told people it will be in our age, whatever was the current age of that time.   But even in the secret  tradition Rambam had in his family about what the date would be, he also said it is not good to guess at the date of moschiach's arrival and people should not do this.

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2008, 05:37:40 AM »
Through scientific experiments or any other means the total secrets of creation and G_d can never be understood.

And man should not make settlements on Mars etc. otherwise they may be risking being called the aliens.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2008, 08:58:59 AM »
Through scientific experiments or any other means the total secrets of creation and G_d can never be understood.

And man should not make settlements on Mars etc. otherwise they may be risking being called the aliens.

There are vast natural resources in places like that. If we can let go of the silly ideas of integration we may be able to have truly separate societies for all people one day through each race and/or nation having their own planet.

Offline syyuge

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7684
Re: Large Hadron Collider. Risk?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2008, 10:51:22 AM »
Through scientific experiments or any other means the total secrets of creation and G_d can never be understood.

And man should not make settlements on Mars etc. otherwise they may be risking being called the aliens.

There are vast natural resources in places like that. If we can let go of the silly ideas of integration we may be able to have truly separate societies for all people one day through each race and/or nation having their own planet.

So you are leaving Earth to the mercy of muzzies and they will be the first to create a universal war of planets.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.