General Category > General Discussion
please need some help with the Torah/Bible
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 19, 2008, 03:21:55 AM ---<snip>
q_q_,
I never said that Esau was righteous, I don't know where you come up with that. My point was that the 'evilness' of Esau was something which didn't really come to the fore till after he sold his birthright. In all Jewish understanding Esau became the evil one.
--- End quote ---
you said he was religious, I suppose you meant he was religious and immoral.
you didn't mean anything.
even according to what you went on to quote, it said that there is a disagreement amongst midrashic sources. One midrash says he was brought up well.. Another that he was evil from the womb.
Not suprising. I don't see much of a contradiction there. But the article makes it look like one is saying he was born evil and the other that he became evil.
And the article says nobody is born evil.
For somebody that isn't chabad, it's Philosophical speculation. Opinions really, not facts, which is why you like it so much.
I wouldn't take articles too seriously when they don't even quote the midrashim verbatim, or reference it exactly.
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 19, 2008, 03:21:55 AM ---<snip>
PS: I just heard a shuir before Yom Kippur which explained in great length the things Esau did to prove to his father he was observant.
http://www.tfdixie.com/Parashat/toldot/002.htm
We must first begin by analyzing Esau. In one respect, Esau appears to be an upright, even righteous, individual. This aspect is illustrated by his strict observance of the commandment to honor his father, as well as his intense anguish at the discovery that he had lost his father's blessing. Conversely, the more well-known side of Esau's personality is that of his wickedness, demonstrated by his disregard for the birthright, his desire to kill Jacob, and the statement of our sages that says that on the day of Abraham's death, Esau committed five sins, among them some of the most heinouscrimes known to Mankind. How, then, are we to view Esau's enigmatic disposition?
--- End quote ---
well done.
You said Esau is observant.. I said "observed what"
You came up with something. He honoured his father.
And you quoted a long paragraph to say it.
That's all you meant when you said "Observant". Very good.
of course you didn't have that in mind at the time.. you had nothing in mind.
You argued "I never said that Esau was righteous,"
I suppose you believe he is now, because you just quoted an article that says "...Esau appears to be an upright, even righteous, individual"
I know what you're trying to do.. And I don't have the patience for it.
You are just looking for excuses to throw in bits of torah here and there and everywhere.
muman613:
q_q_,
I have quoted sources and heard from Rabbis that this is so. Just because you think something doesn't make it true. I don't know why you have such a great feeling about yourself because you do nothing but make yourself a pain in the but.
I have said the truth, as it is told in Torah. You dont want to believe me simply because don't want to learn. You have a learning block because you think you know it all. My friend, you certainly don't know it all. What I have stated about Esau is fact and I can even find more to back up my statement. But I think it is a waste of time to even talk to you because you have an agenda. You are not open minded and you are quite annoying.
Why, q_q, do you think that Isaacs favorite son {Esau} was his favorite? This is clearly because Esau was working hard on impressing his father. This is well know and as the articles I quoted makes clear, he was very interested in honoring his father. It seems you simply want to argue and continue your machlokes over your fiend Chamish with me. I suggest you ask a 'competent' Rabbi which you respect about what I am saying. I have heard this from Rabbis and seen it written. You are smart enough to do a 4torah.com search over it {as I did} and discover that maybe you don't really know it all...
You seem to discount the Chabad site? Thats Ok... What I am teaching here is not simply Chabad opinion. You seem to close your mind over just about everything. Do you really ever learn?
muman613
AsheDina:
Sorry, but I must say my piece, b/c I have been reading this from Davids ben Moshe's Torah, from the 1930's. Look, Esau... He WANTED TO KILL his OWN brother. As q_q says- is THAT righteous?? NO--- It says SO in Genesis- PLAINLY. Then IT IS written in Malachi. Maybe I should not get involved being female, but I happen to love Torah. A LOT.
Malachi http://torah-online.com/ht/Torah/Malachi/Malachi1.html
Chapter 1
Malachi 1:1 THE BURDEN of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say: 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD; yet I loved Jacob;
Malachi 1:3 But Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness.
The Above is ALSO WHY I believe that Esau is also Arab. Sorry- that is what I see.
muman613:
--- Quote from: AsheDina on October 19, 2008, 12:51:55 PM ---
Sorry, but I must say my piece, b/c I have been reading this from Davids ben Moshe's Torah, from the 1930's. Look, Esau... He WANTED TO KILL his OWN brother. As q_q says- is THAT righteous?? NO--- It says SO in Genesis- PLAINLY. Then IT IS written in Malachi. Maybe I should not get involved being female, but I happen to love Torah. A LOT.
Malachi http://torah-online.com/ht/Torah/Malachi/Malachi1.html
Chapter 1
Malachi 1:1 THE BURDEN of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say: 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD; yet I loved Jacob;
Malachi 1:3 But Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness.
The Above is ALSO WHY I believe that Esau is also Arab. Sorry- that is what I see.
--- End quote ---
Shalom,
Yes, there is no doubt that his jealousy for his brother brought him to his evil state. I am not arguing against this or trying to change anything about understanding the evil of Esau.
But when looking at evil one must understand why it is there. I look at Esau and from what I have learned there is a reason for the way it turned out this way. Yes, from the womb they were mortal enemies. Yes, they were always at odds in their choice of lifestyles. Esau was a man of physical endeavors while Yaakov was a man of spiritual endeavors. We have discussed these aspects thouroughly.
The question one must ask oneself is why would Esau be so upset about not getting the blessing? This is one clue as to how Esau thought.
Regarding Esau being an arab this is not basically the Jewish belief. As I stated before all the Sages have said that Esau is the progenitor of the Romans. I realize AsheDina that you clarified your statement saying this is your personal belief and I respect that, but it may be worthwhile to understand what the Sages are saying:
--- Quote ---http://www.aishdas.org/midrash/5765/vayishlach.html
Vayishlach 5765
Magdiel- this is Rome.[1]
The rabbinic identification of Rome with the Biblical figure of Esau is basic to the traditional understanding of much of the relevant sections of Chumash Bareishis. Esau's faults and shortcomings as well as his complex and tortured relationship with his brother Yakov was seen by the Rabbis through the prism of this identification, so much so that the conflict of these two brothers typifies the struggle for spiritual and moral supremacy between Rome and Jerusalem.
It is somewhat unclear, though, what supports this identification. The voluminous Roman chronicles do not appear to contain any awareness of descent from Esau[2], although a memory of such an ignoble descent certainly could have been lost[3] or suppressed. Our tradition does preserve the particulars of Roman descent from Esau.
"The great kingdom of Rome was built by Zepho, son of Eliphaz, son of Esau. Tirtat of the land of Elisha attacked him and killed him (Yelamdeinu, Batei Midrashos 160)."
The Malbim in his commentary to Obadia 1,1 suggests that in addition to genealogical descent, the identification of Rome and Esau is also based on the "founding of their faith by children of Edom, as R. Isaac Abarbanel wrote to Isaiah 34, with proofs."
This comment of the Malbim may lead us the supposition that identification of Rome as Esau rests on the very visible traits that Roman, and subsequently Western civilization, shares with the character traits of Esau as he is described in the Chumash. In fact, it is my impression that midrashic collections seem to highlight especially these cultural qualities when they discuss Esau. The limitations of space do not allow a full treatment of this subject, which in truth deserves a book length treatment; we can, however, manage to briefly focus on two or three of them.
Among such traits is the individualism and disdain for tradition and authority that is such an obvious feature of Western civilization and also of Esau who was a "self-made man". Esau willingly gave up his birthright in order to build his future with his own toil and effort. "Esau showed to others that (in his opinion) the institution of birthright is not morally correct. Rather one who is more talented, of his own right should be honored above others. Many great leaders of the nations of the worlds followed Esau 's opinion and disparaged the status of birth; rather, (they held) everything depends on the natural abilities of each individual (Netsiv, Haemek Davar to Genesis 23,34).
One trait of Esau that few will fail to recognize in the civilization and culture of the West is the emphasis on the image over substance, leavened with a good measure of hypocrisy.[4]
He (Esau) was a hypocrite (Shocher Tov 14,3).
Esau would hunt him (Yitshak) and deceive him with words (Genesis Rabbah 63,10).
Nevertheless, the emphasis on the appearances brings a certain measure of outward nobility and aristocratic bearing which is evident in the outside trappings of Esau's civilization, his architecture, art, music - the brilliance of classical Western culture. The Maharal writes: " The verse "two proud ones in your belly" alludes to the wide view of Israel and Edom, not just Rebbi and Antoninus alone (see our Midrash Toldos for a technical discussion of this statement) - that they possess a specific substance. They have a live force of substance and they comport themselves with worth in their eating. This means that there is one who eats like an animal, without raising himself in it but Israel and Esau do not conduct themselves so. They prepare a proper environment to make their eating more important. So also Esau comports himself in his clothing to this day to honor himself in his dress and to raise his self respect above that of other nations, also through great buildings. Not so Ishmael - they do not care about their clothing, cuisine, bathhouses[5].... this means that they (sons of Esau) have a self-worth in their life-force[6][7] (Gur Arye, Gen. 25, 24).
--- End quote ---
I realize that we will never fully agree on our understanding of these issues. Torah is learned on one hand, and experienced on another. My life experiences have a bearing on my understanding of the lessons of our Torah. I dont expect everyone to agree with my perceptions but I would like to share and learn what others understand. This is the way we can grow.
muman613
AsheDina:
Why do you say it is not a Jewish belief? I am Jewish, I think Esau is modern day Arab, along with Ishmaelites- Where does it say that Rome is Esau? I dont know what other religions believe about this, and I dont care- but it pretty much plainly says it: Desolate. Jackals. What is desolate? Doesent that mean also Desert? Anyway, I'm not arguing, but it causes for questioning. Cain was Abels brother. He was a murderer also.
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