General Category > General Discussion
please need some help with the Torah/Bible
AsheDina:
OH I'm Sorry Muman- I see- Ishmael was a wild one- I see it, ok. But it says that Esav was bad too- He wanted to kill his OWN brother!! well, we are all bad anyway. I have heard LOTS of these crazy arabs say that they are the descendants of Ishmael, and some try to say Abraham. If they are saying "Ishmael" they ARE OUTRIGHT saying that Israel does NOT belong to them, right?
(I thought it was Esav----okkkk Sorry- I see.)
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: Paulette on October 17, 2008, 02:23:05 PM --- OH I'm Sorry Muman- I see- Ishmael was a wild one- I see it, ok. But it says that Esav was bad too- He wanted to kill his OWN brother!! well, we are all bad anyway. I have heard LOTS of these crazy arabs say that they are the descendants of Ishmael, and some try to say Abraham. If they are saying "Ishmael" they ARE OUTRIGHT saying that Israel does NOT belong to them, right?
(I thought it was Esav----okkkk Sorry- I see.)
--- End quote ---
The Arabs are descendents of Ishmael, but that does not prove that Israel belongs to them. Quite the opposite, expecially when they bring the Bible as proof (as also happened at the time of Alexander the Great). They bring the Torah and say see we are also descendents of Avraham, and we bring the Torah and say please read furthur on- Avraham gave his other children (Ishmael and the sons of Keturah) gifts, and sent them away from his home, and he gave Yitzhak (the father of Yakov- thus the Jews) the Land of Israel and his inheritence. Its plainly written in the Torah, so they have no case becuase Avraham Alav Hashalom settled this case in his life time, and even after he died, Ishmael eventually did tishuva (our sages say) and did recognize the importance and the status of Yitzhak Alav Hashalom. And went on his own path seperated from what would be the Chosen Nation (the nation of Israel).
AsheDina:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on October 17, 2008, 03:12:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: Paulette on October 17, 2008, 02:23:05 PM --- OH I'm Sorry Muman- I see- Ishmael was a wild one- I see it, ok. But it says that Esav was bad too- He wanted to kill his OWN brother!! well, we are all bad anyway. I have heard LOTS of these crazy arabs say that they are the descendants of Ishmael, and some try to say Abraham. If they are saying "Ishmael" they ARE OUTRIGHT saying that Israel does NOT belong to them, right?
(I thought it was Esav----okkkk Sorry- I see.)
--- End quote ---
The Arabs are descendents of Ishmael, but that does not prove that Israel belongs to them. Quite the opposite, expecially when they bring the Bible as proof (as also happened at the time of Alexander the Great). They bring the Torah and say see we are also descendents of Avraham, and we bring the Torah and say please read furthur on- Avraham gave his other children (Ishmael and the sons of Keturah) gifts, and sent them away from his home, and he gave Yitzhak (the father of Yakov- thus the Jews) the Land of Israel and his inheritence. Its plainly written in the Torah, so they have no case becuase Avraham Alav Hashalom settled this case in his life time, and even after he died, Ishmael eventually did tishuva (our sages say) and did recognize the importance and the status of Yitzhak Alav Hashalom. And went on his own path seperated from what would be the Chosen Nation (the nation of Israel).
--- End quote ---
Right. I know- but thats why I also question Esav- b/c Esav was the same way as the islamos act today. They HATE that Israel will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER belong to them, it drives them INSANE like Esav acted insane. This is also where I get crazed, b/c NO MATTER WHAT- Israel belongs to the Children of Abraham, NOT these Ishmaelites.. Even IF that were truth-they would DESTROY the place, and G-d does not give such things to a people that are hell bent on destruction.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 16, 2008, 07:41:47 PM ---<snip>
PS: I think you meant that Essau was a Hunter, not a murderer. What is your source for calling Essau a murderer? In fact Essau was a very religious and observant man, not like you portray him.
--- End quote ---
I already wrote that there is a famous midrash of Esau biting jacob's neck. I don't think that that would sound righteous to you. It didn't go in though, did it? The post was just 2 posts before the one where you wrote your post witth that ridicuous "ps" note!
contradictions mean nothing to you.
disagreements mean nothing,
facts mean nothing.
Look at the plain text, when Jacob greets Esau with lots of gifts, he is worried, he wants to calm esau down.
if there are midrashim of him being religious, i'd like to know which. But the plain text, and midrashim i've seen portraying him, portray him as a bad guy, and his nation as a bad nation.
religious? what is your source. Just that a rabbi told you? You should have said that then, and said it was weak like that. That you have no idea and you just heard.
observant? observing what?
Esau threatened to kill Jacob!!!!!!!! Jacob fled from Esau.
Gen 27:41
"And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart: 'Let the days of mourning for my father be at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.'"
Is that righteous to you?
Rule number one, read the plain text.
If you had, and were logically consistent, you wouldn't have said he was religious and "observant".
Observant!! of what? hairy animals crawling around?
before he speared them!
It was Yishmael who the oral tradition says -became- religious later. And the written hints at this by saying he "expired". And more explicitly, shows that there was some level of peace, in that yishmael helped yitzchak bury their father avraham.
What you have to do muman, and the same as what every jew should do. And many here don't. Is know where you know things from.
In particular, at least know
if something is in the Written Torah, or if it is in the Oral Torah.
Sometimes midrashim disagree.
Plain text is stronger.
You write like you haven't even read the plain text.
You are listening to a dvar here and a dvar there.. I actually told you specifically that that is the problem with listening to all these shiurim.
If the rabbi himself that said it didn't even mention a source then don't bother listening to it! And if you don't remember the source clearly then don't bother remembering it so clearly. And if you haven't read the source yourself or verified it via google, then don't just say the source says it. You have to actually weigh your facts. What you know and what you've heard.
And hearing somthing once from one rabbi!!!!!!! That is nothing. Do you even remember the rabbi?
If you hear it from many different rabbis then it's more likely. But check these things before firmly remembering them!
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 19, 2008, 02:50:02 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 16, 2008, 07:41:47 PM ---<snip>
PS: I think you meant that Essau was a Hunter, not a murderer. What is your source for calling Essau a murderer? In fact Essau was a very religious and observant man, not like you portray him.
--- End quote ---
I told you of the midrash of Esau biting jacob's neck. I don't think that that would sound righteous to you. It obviously didn't go in though. Your 100% agreement obviously doesn't mean anything
Look at the plain text, when Jacob greets Esau with lots of gifts, he is worried, he wants to calm esau down.
if there are midrashim of him being religious, i'd like to know which. But the plain text, and midrashim i've seen portraying him, portray him as a bad guy, and his nation as a bad nation.
religious? what is your source.
observant? observing what?
Esau threatened to kill Jacob!!!!!!!! Jacob fled from Esau.
Gen 27:41
"And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart: 'Let the days of mourning for my father be at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.'"
Is that righteous to you?
Rule number one, read the plain text.
--- End quote ---
q_q_,
I never said that Esau was righteous, I don't know where you come up with that. My point was that the 'evilness' of Esau was something which didn't really come to the fore till after he sold his birthright. In all Jewish understanding Esau became the evil one. But there is a back-story which explains why Isaac was fooled by Esau.
Esau went to great lengths to impress his father that he was a learned son. I will refer you to this so you can review:
The Personality of Esau
http://www.mesora.org/esau.html
Isaac admired Esau’s abundant energies. He respected his abilities as a conqueror. He was an individual whose countenance demanded respect. However Isaac made one miscalculation. He thought that Esau would exploit his abilities as a conqueror and assist Jacob in spreading the teachings of the Torah. The Torah likewise, in its description of Esau, recognizes and respects Esau’s unique abilities. The Torah appreciates the greatness embodied in the personality of the conqueror. There is a Midrash (allegory) that compares the personalities of the Grand Rabbi Judah the Prince, and the wicked Antiochos. They both reflect man’s ability of conquest. One excelled in the world of the ideational and one in the world of the physical.
From Chabad:
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/57475/jewish/Tamars-Twins.htm
The Torah relates that "The children struggled within her." The Midrash explains: "Whenever she would pass a house of prayer or house of study, Jacob would struggle to come out ... and when she passed a house of idolatry, Esau would struggle to come out." Rebecca, puzzled by the contrary strivings being exhibited by her offspring, "sought the counsel of G-d" and was told: "There are two nations in your womb; two peoples will separate from your innards."
There are, however, other Midrashic accounts that describe Esau and Jacob sharing a righteous childhood in the holy environment of their parents' home and under the tutelage of their saintly grandfather, Abraham, and that "only later did Esau ruin himself with his deeds." This supports our initial conception of an impeccable conception, pregnancy and birth, followed by a "deficient" progeny that is attributable solely to the fact that Esau, by his own free will, chose to follow a path of evil.
And one last example:
From Torah.org
http://www.torah.org/learning/jewish-values/distance4.html
With regard to the form of falsehood that is prohibited by the Torah there is one specific circumstance in which one may be permitted to lie; when another person is trying to trick or lie to you then you may be allowed to deceive him. This leniency is derived from the story in the Torah involving Jacob deceiving his father Isaac: Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob, Esau was the elder and was Isaac’s favorite. Isaac believed he was righteous and therefore wanted to give the main blessing to Esau and not Jacob. Isaac’s wife, Rebecca, knew that Esau was really an evil man and had deceived his father into believing that he was righteous. She knew that there would be a terrible consequences if Esau received the blessing. Therefore she persuaded her other son, Jacob, to pretend that he was Esau and thereby deceive Isaac into giving the blessing to him.
So, as you can see, there is good reason for Isaac to have believed that Esau was righteous. The truth is he was just acting in the way he believed he had to in order to get the blessing which he wanted.
muman613
PS: I just heard a shuir before Yom Kippur which explained in great length the things Esau did to prove to his father he was observant.
http://www.tfdixie.com/Parashat/toldot/002.htm
We must first begin by analyzing Esau. In one respect, Esau appears to be an upright, even righteous, individual. This aspect is illustrated by his strict observance of the commandment to honor his father, as well as his intense anguish at the discovery that he had lost his father's blessing. Conversely, the more well-known side of Esau's personality is that of his wickedness, demonstrated by his disregard for the birthright, his desire to kill Jacob, and the statement of our sages that says that on the day of Abraham's death, Esau committed five sins, among them some of the most heinouscrimes known to Mankind. How, then, are we to view Esau's enigmatic disposition?
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