Auto Deal Collapses!

[Dan]

Auto Bailout Bill Collapses in Senate Despite Intense Negotiations.
Democratic leaders and the White House made final pleas for the bill's passage on Thursday, but the two sides in the Senate failed to forge a compromise.

 A deal on $14 billion in aid to Detroit's Big Three automakers fell apart Thursday night in the Senate despite intense negotiations on Capitol Hill between lawmakers, union officials and representatives from the three companies.

Earlier in the evening, the talks appeared to have produced a breakthrough, with Democratic leaders "hopeful" that an agreement had been reached that would be acceptable to Senate Republicans, who have resisted the aid package. But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid came back later to report the effort had failed, adding he was "terribly disappointed."

Republicans, after reviewing the latest version of the proposal in a closed-door meeting, balked at giving automaker federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.

Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the United Auto Workers was willing to make the cuts, but not until 2011.

The collapse of the latest negotiations came as the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday evening that General Motors had hired lawyers and bankers to consider whether to file for bankruptcy, a prospect made more likely by the outcome of Thursday's talks.

A procedural vote is scheduled Thursday night but it is expected to be little more than a formality.

"We just don't have the votes," Reid said. "I dread looking at Wall Street in the morning."

Democratic leaders and the White House made final pleas for the bill's passage on Thursday, but the two sides in the Senate failed to forge a compromise.

The House approved the plan late Wednesday on a vote of 237-170. It would infuse money within days into cash-starved General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC. Ford Motor Co., which has said it has enough cash to make it through 2009, would also be eligible for federal aid.

The plan would also create a government "car czar," to be named by President Bush to dole out loans, with the power to force the carmaker into bankruptcy next spring if they didn't cut quick deals with labor unions, creditors and others to restructure their businesses and become viable.

But the legislation has met strong opposition from many Republicans -- including Minority Leader Mitch McConnell -- who claim it does not require enough accountability from auto makers. The Republicans planned to filibuster the legislation to prevent its passage in the U.S. Senate.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/11/auto-bailout-collapses-senate-despite-intense-negotiations/

[zachor_ve_kavod]

The bad news is that the Republicans will be blamed for people losing their jobs, even though this is not the truth.  The good new of course is that this bailout was defeated.  The fact is that a bailout would only be temporary life support to a dying industry.  I suppose they could delay the auto industry's inevitable collapse, but they can't prevent it.

[Ulli]

If you begin with subsidies, it will never have an end. First it is 14 billions, then 40 billions then 100 etc.

It is right from the principle and from the facts to stop this.

[Dan]

It looks like Auto Bailout is on Life support with a Poor prognosis

[Americanhero1]

They were talking on the news the White house are in the works to push ahead the bailout

[RanterMaximus]

Yes, the Republicans will get blamed for people losing their jobs.  That's the tune the Dems, the media, and those snakes at the UAW will play.

[Masha]

If you begin with subsidies, it will never have an end. First it is 14 billions, then 40 billions then 100 etc.

It is right from the principle and from the facts to stop this.

You know, this is precisely how I felt when I voted in the last election. Usually, I am a sucker for "noble" causes, so I vote for various bonds that collect money for this or that. I tell myself: "Oh, this sounds like a good idea. And this also sounds like a good cause. So I'll vote to give money to this and that and the other thing." Well, something in me snapped this past election. Suddenly, I looked at all these pleas for money, all these bond proposals, and felt sick to my stomach. I thought: this is a bottomless pit. They will never stop asking for more and more money. None of these new taxes are temporary: they stay forever, and then they ask for more and more and more. These bureaucrats have an insatiable appetite, and it's at our expense. let them budget what they already have. So voted "no" across the board. Children's hospitals, policemen, veterans, caged chickens - no, and no, and no... You may think me heartless, but I am just fed up!

By the way, I have a stupid or naive question, depending how you look at it. Why is this thing called "negotiations"? "Negotiations" to me means bargaining when both sides have something to offer. If I want to offer you oil at a special price, and in exchange I want you to transport oil cheaply across your territory to my other clients - this is negotiations. If I ask you to give me something for free, it's not negotiations. I call it "begging." What is there to negotiate about regarding the auto bailout. What could the auto makers possibly disagree about? What leverage could they possibly hold? How could these "negotiations" possibly break down?

[cjd]

They were talking on the news the White house are in the works to push ahead the bailout

Yes. The head of the UAW said that the White House may give GM and Chrysler some money out of the TARP funds and bypass congress. I guess the specter of companies like this going down has the White House on edge since it seems that appearances seem to be everything in this economy. Every time bad news comes out it spurs a further decline in people pulling money out of the market. I think the fact that Republicans have an antilabor reputation is playing against them but the fact is that costs at the motor companies need to be brought under control. The Democrats are playing to their base and want to toss money at the car companies. The thing that bothers me is they want to call the shots on what sort of product comes out the door. If liberals want us all driving the equivalent of smart cars the should mandate all companies that sell cars here to do the same. Forcing GM, Chrysler and even Ford to build cars that most people wont want will not cure the problem. In the long run its sad but restructuring may be the best solution. If the company wont come through it now it most likely won't in a year or so anyway.

[Ulli]

If you begin with subsidies, it will never have an end. First it is 14 billions, then 40 billions then 100 etc.

It is right from the principle and from the facts to stop this.

You know, this is precisely how I felt when I voted in the last election. Usually, I am a sucker for "noble" causes, so I vote for various bonds that collect money for this or that. I tell myself: "Oh, this sounds like a good idea. And this also sounds like a good cause. So I'll vote to give money to this and that and the other thing." Well, something in me snapped this past election. Suddenly, I looked at all these pleas for money, all these bond proposals, and felt sick to my stomach. I thought: this is a bottomless pit. They will never stop asking for more and more money. None of these new taxes are temporary: they stay forever, and then they ask for more and more and more. These bureaucrats have an insatiable appetite, and it's at our expense. let them budget what they already have. So voted "no" across the board. Children's hospitals, policemen, veterans, caged chickens - no, and no, and no... You may think me heartless, but I am just fed up!

By the way, I have a stupid or naive question, depending how you look at it. Why is this thing called "negotiations"? "Negotiations" to me means bargaining when both sides have something to offer. If I want to offer you oil at a special price, and in exchange I want you to transport oil cheaply across your territory to my other clients - this is negotiations. If I ask you to give me something for free, it's not negotiations. I call it "begging." What is there to negotiate about regarding the auto bailout. What could the auto makers possibly disagree about? What leverage could they possibly hold? How could these "negotiations" possibly break down?

The terms are quite confusing. I agree with you. I think this is a strategy in order to let the managers of the big car-companies save their face and to make their concern more acceptable.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I'm glad this happened, if you bail them out they won't have any incentive to get their act together. Throwing money at problems doesn't help anything!

I think the reason the auto companies are in this dilemma is because of the UAW. Why should carmakers make $71.00 an hour?! That cost gets passed on to people buying cars!

[Ulli]

I'm glad this happened, if you bail them out they won't have any incentive to get their act together. Throwing money at problems doesn't help anything!

I think the reason the auto companies are in this dilemma is because of the UAW. Why should carmakers make $71.00 an hour?! That cost gets passed on to people buying cars!

This is really a kingly salery.

Did the the normal workers get it?

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I'm glad this happened, if you bail them out they won't have any incentive to get their act together. Throwing money at problems doesn't help anything!

I think the reason the auto companies are in this dilemma is because of the UAW. Why should carmakers make $71.00 an hour?! That cost gets passed on to people buying cars!

This is really a kingly salery.

Did the the normal workers get it?

From what I'm able to see, yes. Dennis Prager was discussing this on his radio show the other day, I think even he used that sum!

[Ulli]

If I calculate it with normal worktime 71$ the hour x 8 hours the day x 6 workdays of the week x 4,33 weeks the month. I get the ammount of 14756 $. If I calculate it with a less worktime of 5 workdays the week I get 12297 $ the month.

 

No wonder, that they are broke.

[briann]

If I calculate it with normal worktime 71$ the hour x 8 hours the day x 6 workdays of the week x 4,33 weeks the month. I get the ammount of 14756 $. If I calculate it with a less worktime of 5 workdays the week I get 12297 $ the month.

 

No wonder, that they are broke.

In certain states... there are teachers that make that hourly wage.  (The ones with the largest Union control of course)
Coincidentally... these are also the states that are facing bankruptcy.

[Ulli]

If I calculate it with normal worktime 71$ the hour x 8 hours the day x 6 workdays of the week x 4,33 weeks the month. I get the ammount of 14756 $. If I calculate it with a less worktime of 5 workdays the week I get 12297 $ the month.

 

No wonder, that they are broke.

In certain states... there are teachers that make that hourly wage.  (The ones with the largest Union control of course)
Coincidentally... these are also the states that are facing bankruptcy.

Even a master plumber or a master heating installer makes this the hour, but the difference is, that they are self-employed. They have to pay from this money their business premises, their shop, their stock and their truck and of course their accounting clerk.

But this workers at the car companies work at the assembly line and take no personal economical risc. This has to be considered in their salery.

[q_q_]

If I calculate it with normal worktime 71$ the hour x 8 hours the day x 6 workdays of the week x 4,33 weeks the month. I get the ammount of 14756 $. If I calculate it with a less worktime of 5 workdays the week I get 12297 $ the month.

 

No wonder, that they are broke.

minor point here,   

we write a decimal point as a dot.
4,33 <-- must be german notation for 4.33  (52/12=4.3 recurring)

And, in Germany don't people take a lunch break?  I think people employed working daily are generally paid for 7h/day , so, not including the lunch break.
You took it as 8h/day

It's still alot though!

[Ulli]

q_q, the 8 hour work day is normal. In few companies the trade unions have forced a minor work time. But the lunch break is normally only half a hour and the breakfeast and coffee break 15 minutes. This times are not included in the 8 hours.

I.e. you start at 7 o clock in the morning and you have to work until 16 o clock in the afternoon.

The issue with the point and the comma I have seen before. You are right. In anglo-saxon countries it is the dot and in Germany it is the comma to divide the decimal place.

Programming languages didn't accept the comma too. I have learned painfully in business 

[~Hanna~]

It's too bad the car companies didn't feel as bad about all the homeless Vet's in the USA we have now (78% of homeless are Veteran's).

It's too bad they didn't care more about building housing or getting them off the streets as much as they cared about saving their mega-empires....

Just my 2 cents...

[briann]

It's too bad the car companies didn't feel as bad about all the homeless Vet's in the USA we have now (78% of homeless are Veteran's).

It's too bad they didn't care more about building housing or getting them off the streets as much as they cared about saving their mega-empires....

Just my 2 cents...

While I agree that more attention should be paid to Veterans... there is int NO way that Veterans make up 78% of homeless.  Im sure if you ask a homeless person... theyll say they are a veteran (Since they know it gives them extra pitty)... but they almost never are.

From what Ive been told by a guy in social services... .most of them are just druggies and alcoholics who do NOT want to work .    BUT!!!! in the upcoming years... Im sure the percentage that DO want to find work will go up dramatically... as it is starting to do worldwide.

Brian

[cjd]

Don't believe all the hype car factory workers make a good wage but it's not $71.00 an hour.  The domestic companies that are unionized make a good deal more in wage an benefits then foreign companies with plants here in the U.S but then again it a lot more expensive to live in Detroit the it is to live in some of the Southern States were Toyota and Honda operate from. The problem is is complex mainly its the fault of poor management and unions who never know when enough is enough. The sad fact is that when hourly wages are raised so are managements salaries. This made it easy for management to be very liberal in salary and benefits over the years. There is enough blame to go around on both sides the smart thing would be for both sides to sit down and come to reasonable agreements. The fly in the ointment is the legacy cost that the companies bare with people who are retired. The cost of carrying the people who are out on retirement is the biggest burden of all. If the government really wants  to help the motor companies they may consider taking this burden off their back in consideration for changing the retirement rules for future retiree's.  As sad as it may seem I really have come to believe that bankruptcy may be the best solution for companies like this. At the end of the day they will either have a new lease on life or the demise will be hastened and save taxpayers a bundle of money.

[cjd]

It's too bad the car companies didn't feel as bad about all the homeless Vet's in the USA we have now (78% of homeless are Veteran's).

It's too bad they didn't care more about building housing or getting them off the streets as much as they cared about saving their mega-empires....

Just my 2 cents...

I want our veterans to be well taken care of however I don't think that its the fault of the motor companies that they are not. Our government has never been very generous with the people who served in the military. This is something that they really should be ashamed of. If there is one group of people above all that should get first class treatment in time of need its people who served in our military.

[q_q_]

q_q, the 8 hour work day is normal. In few companies the trade unions have forced a minor work time. But the lunch break is normally only half a hour and the breakfeast and coffee break 15 minutes. This times are not included in the 8 hours.

I.e. you start at 7 o clock in the morning and you have to work until 16 o clock in the afternoon.

The issue with the point and the comma I have seen before. You are right. In anglo-saxon countries it is the dot and in Germany it is the comma to divide the decimal place.

Programming languages didn't accept the comma too. I have learned painfully in business 

So, Germany is 8+1 (9 hours at an office )

in UK it's 7+1.

what about america though?

(obviously bosses tend to stay longer..particularly owners(top bosses!) and of course regular employees do too sometimes, but often on overtime pay)

[cjd]

q_q, the 8 hour work day is normal. In few companies the trade unions have forced a minor work time. But the lunch break is normally only half a hour and the breakfeast and coffee break 15 minutes. This times are not included in the 8 hours.

I.e. you start at 7 o clock in the morning and you have to work until 16 o clock in the afternoon.

The issue with the point and the comma I have seen before. You are right. In anglo-saxon countries it is the dot and in Germany it is the comma to divide the decimal place.

Programming languages didn't accept the comma too. I have learned painfully in business 

So, Germany is 8+1 (9 hours at an office )

in UK it's 7+1.

what about america though?

(obviously bosses tend to stay longer..particularly owners(top bosses!) and of course regular employees do too sometimes, but often on overtime pay)

Here in America the normal work day for most hourly people is 8 hours plus whatever unpaid lunch break is agreed to. In most cases anything after 40 hours is overtime in some cases anything before or after the normal shift is considered overtime and the rate of pay is time and one half. Salaried people that don't punch a time card in most cases have less defined work hours and can end up working more than the standard 40 hours with no increase in pay. Salaried people tend to be white collar and management personnel. By all rights they still should fall under the same work rules for pay as the hourly people but the fact that they don't punch a time card makes it hard for them to get the extra pay. Being that most salaried people are non union complaining about not getting paid for additional hours worked will in most cases get you fired.

[nessuno]

Very true.
I do not punch a clock, but I sure wish I did.
It would be much easier to collect my overtime that way.

[briann]

Don't believe all the hype car factory workers make a good wage but it's not $71.00 an hour.  The domestic companies that are unionized make a good deal more in wage an benefits then foreign companies with plants here in the U.S but then again it a lot more expensive to live in Detroit the it is to live in some of the Southern States were Toyota and Honda operate from. The problem is is complex mainly its the fault of poor management and unions who never know when enough is enough. The sad fact is that when hourly wages are raised so are managements salaries. This made it easy for management to be very liberal in salary and benefits over the years. There is enough blame to go around on both sides the smart thing would be for both sides to sit down and come to reasonable agreements. The fly in the ointment is the legacy cost that the companies bare with people who are retired. The cost of carrying the people who are out on retirement is the biggest burden of all. If the government really wants  to help the motor companies they may consider taking this burden off their back in consideration for changing the retirement rules for future retiree's.  As sad as it may seem I really have come to believe that bankruptcy may be the best solution for companies like this. At the end of the day they will either have a new lease on life or the demise will be hastened and save taxpayers a bundle of money.

Ive been saying this for years.  Its the retirement accounts where the unions do the MOST damage.  Their packages are absurdly expensive... often being paid 2 or even 3 times what the private industry pays.  The Unions have completely sabotages California's budget because of the absurdly expensive retirement accounts that are set up to reap the gains in the stock market during Bulls... and stick it to the rest of us during the Bears.

I think we all agree that Chapter 11 would be the best route...   BUT now its become more about... HEY!!! you bailed out them!!! and they caused this.... NOW you HAVE to bail out US!!!!