Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[DownwithIslam]

I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.

Muman, Rabbi Mizrahi is far from perfect, which is normal for a human being. I am always skeptical of anyone who leaves israel. He needs to stop the christian bashing because it doesn't make him look that smart. Why bash people who support israel, unless he doesn't care about israel. I honestly believe his is just not bright and that is why he gets involved in this stuff. I try to believe that he doesn't do it intentionally. If he bashes christians, then why did he come to a christian country? He ran away from a jewish country didn't he?

[muman613]

I have watched Rabbi Mizrachi and have not heard a thing which is not true. I dont know why some people here feel a need to disprect Rabbis who have studied and present the Torah in a very powerful message.

Muman, Rabbi Mizrahi is far from perfect, which is normal for a human being. I am always skeptical of anyone who leaves israel. He needs to stop the christian bashing because it doesn't make him look that smart. Why bash people who support israel, unless he doesn't care about israel. I honestly believe his is just not bright and that is why he gets involved in this stuff. I try to believe that he doesn't do it intentionally. If he bashes christians, then why did he come to a christian country? He ran away from a jewish country didn't he?

DWI,

I share with Rabbi Mizrachi a very serious problem with Christian missionaries. I dont want to get involved in bringing up sensitive topics so I will leave it at this. When I was a young man I was told by a Christian friend I was going to hell. I was never friends again with this person.

I don't consider America a Christian country as you do. Our constitution clearly intends America to be religiously nuetral and that is what makes it so great. Freedom of Religion is Americas true strength and is why my family emigrated here at the turn of the 20th century.

My family has suffered mightily to the ravages of Assimiliation. America has been so good to the Jew that it has quitely killed the Jewish soul. There are no Jews left in my family because all have married non-Jewish women. I am the only true Jew left in my family. I work hard on trying to preserve the Jewish identity in a culture which is very anti-Jewish.

PS: Israel should not need non-Jewish support. Never in our history has anything good come from the nations for the Jewish people. Why should we believe it will change?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

C.F. he does refute islam also. And about missionizing, I was referring to that specific guy he had the dabate with- that guy came to us (our community) and was missionizing door to door. So he was invited for a debate, and the rest is on tape.
Anyway DWI im sorry to say that you are just inflaming things, please show some respect to Rav Mizrachi. Again if you really care about the Israel thing then just email or call him. Infact come to 108th street (Beit Gavriel) on the 31th and ask him in person if you want.
  And by the way, he does talk down about Arabs (as does the Torah) "Peri Adam". And with the whole insuting chrisitians thing- he doesn't really insult chrisitians, maybe once in a while he might refer to jc as jc penny. Or say that marry was you know what, but he directs it more to the religion (not the people).
  Anyway about allies- not everyone sees it that way. If their is an organization that does then that is their buisness, and it doesn't make it obligatory for everyone else to follow that. (And by the Torah- straight from the Bible I can show you that the prophets said counter to that also).
  What you see is your own little mission. And as long as other groups support that mission of yours then everything else is okay. What you see is supporting zionism, so as long as anyone supposidly supports Jews going back to Israel, everything else is completly okay by you. (You will probably say no but if you analyze your thoughts and at least what you write and who you see as "good" and "bad" or "right and wrong" it is completly based on who supports Jews living in Israel or not, ignoring everything else.

[q_q_]

Rabbi Mizrachi's website is for jews.  

Yes. some over-zealous unwise newly religious jewish idiot(s) post RABBI VS CHRISTIAN onto the forum, and gentiles ignorant of these things, get that impression.

The torahanytime website is for jews, and things dealing with christianity are counter-missionary..  Or, purely targetted at jews to try to get them to believe judaism.

It's not bashing other religions.
It's about bringing jews to judaism.  It's not for gentiles e.g. christians and muslims.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Q_Q, I know that JudeaNoncapta doesn't like Chabad, <snip>

just to be clear, I didn't say that.

I said that his argument about a third of the torah any time ,applies to them and most orthodox jews in the world....

[New Yorker]

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

[q_q_]

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Here is a good video I just saw on youtube (new video of subscribtion that I have)


 
 - About Jews incouraging the nations to keep the 7 laws (also about NOT discouraging converts) - Material mainly from the Rambam.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, don't get me wrong, I don't consider Rabbi Mizrahi to be a bad person, he comes across as a humble, kind man in his videos. I simply believe him to be mistaken on many things. If he wants to prevent assimilation, he can do that in ways other than to bash christians in general. He should know damn well that their are bible believing christians who love israel. I think the fact that he tries to bring jews back to judaism is a wonderful thing. All I am saying is that I doubt he can win an argument with chaim over the christian issue and leaving israel.

[ItalianZionist]

they said 86% of israeli Arabs are decscended from Jews. Is this true?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The Christian will kill the Jew spiritually (Assimiliation/Intermarriage and Crusades/Inquisitions)
The Muslim will kill the Jew physically (Jihad)

I tried to respond to this on Friday, but it was literally the very last second before the forum closed for Shabbat and my reply was not saved.

I know what you are saying, but what I can say is that intermarriage, at least, is strongly condemned by Christianity just as much as it is in Judaism. No true Christian would advocate marrying Jews or any other non-Christians. It is a huge sin to us too.

[q_q_]

Tzvi just posted a video to make more jews more into judaism..It critiqued christianity (and islam). He posted it to gentiles.. Doing that -is- bashing christianity (and islam).

I posted a long response as to why that was wrong. explanation(relevant to future posts too).. And as they deleted tzvi's post, they deleted mine..

(they may have deleted mine because I said that christianity caused us problems, it taking 2000 years to domesticate.. but most christians here would agree we have had around 2000 years of misery from people that call themselves christians.  I think they deleted mine because they thought it wasn't relevant anymore since tzvi deleted his post. But it is relevant to the future)

in short I said that you shouldn't bash christianity in good times or bad times.
my post was deleted with tzvi's.

anyhow, beware..


I really can't be bothered if this sort of thing happens.

it takes time to write a post.

and it is still very relevant to my position in the future when this happens again , these things are posted again and the merits and demerits of posting them are discussed. I don't like going through all my thoughts again unnecessarily.. And I dont like repeating myself. And it's a waste of time.

[judeanoncapta]

I also didn't like how he seems to bash the "goyim" alot when their are many bible believing christian supporters of Israel. Many of the videos he posts are titles "debate vs christian." Wouldn't it be better if he bashed islam?

True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.

As far as bashing goyim, I am not in favor of that. But Goyim that attack the Jewish people, physically or spiritually must be responded to.

[judeanoncapta]

Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.

[New Yorker]

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).

I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.

Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.

 Rambam wrote in a private letter sent to the Jews of Yemen about Islam. The liklyhood of someone reading it was slim. Putting a video online where everyone has access to it is different. - Anyway it is a personal choice. And like I said he does disprove their claims, but doesn't say things like mo was a pig or a child molester or something like that.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.

  that is too much. No one is requesting to follow the written law (and i'm sure you dont keep Shabb-t (if your a gentile).

[q_q_]

Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?

You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.

no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral.  It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
 
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.

Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.

BELIEF in the truth of it.  Not following it(if following it means following jewish law, and it usually does since that is 99% of it).

The Torah, says that jews shouild follow jewish law and gentiles, the noachide laws.

Obviously, ideally, not believing in non-torah doctrines. Having a Torah understanding of G-d and prophets, and , well, the Torah.

[judeanoncapta]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.

 But that is making an assumption though. And their would have to be a plan made on how to build it. Given that, I dont know, if you want to you can always ask before making assumptions.
 
  Anyway presenting for example his type of lectures (the one's aimed specifically to non-religious Jews- the majority) is the doorway that would only make what you are proposing possible. Why? because with the proofs, with Shabb-t, and encoragement to learn Toroh, then Jews could go deeper into the Torah and explore all the different parts of it (including sacrifices etc.) No one (or very very few) who do not believe in the Toroh as Divine will go and study on how to present sacrifices, what should a Kohen do, etc. At the very least people need a doorway, correct? We need the nation to connect with the Toroh, in a time when their are many in the world who deny it, and have doubts. Rav Mizrachi mainly focuses on eliminating the doubt in the Toroh and presenting it as the Divine book that it is.

[q_q_]

And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
  Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.

I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.

That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.

I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.

But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.

And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"

So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.

That does merge a few things though..

Galus judaism as judaism applicable for when in Galus..

and galus judaism as in , the unintellectual rhetoric and behaviour.. like whoever sends death threats to rabbi bar hayyim over the kitniyot issue!

While in galus, the kitniyot custom was questioned.. So there was a galus judaism without that..  Just as there was a galus judaism with less kabbalah.. And other things that became more in galus.

The details about the sacrifices are taught.. because every word of the torah is holy.. Sometimes rabbis doing popular talks don't talk about it.. But serious ones do..  So I don't see a galus judaism without that. I guess you are talking about on a really serious level so the rabbi is confident and knows what to do.  Indeed.. I have read that nowadays these things are left to "the gedolim", though everything is, so that comes down to gedolim again

The Korban pesach , there are reasons both ways.  So there are many issues here..  All of which you put under a banner of galus judaism.. Rabbis have debated it. So it's not purely "gedolim say".

Are modern Eruvs "galus judaism" or just wrong..  One can blur it into that label. Saying Gedolim..

Really these are all separate issues, that deserve iondividual attention , the only thing connecting them are Gedolim, but they are behind anything.
The Gedolim thing crept up in Galus.  But these general labels cause us not to give any of these things properly schoalrly attention..

It would be great if you wrote scholarly articles on these individual things. You did a great show on the korban pesach. But i'm sure you had written notes on it..  A written document is much better for something so serious.  And then you really don't have to repeat yourself.  
You can number the paragraphs and refer people to whatever paragraph of your document!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.

I will confess I don't really know who this Rabbi is and exactly what he is saying about Christianity. Obviously he has the right to debate a Christian who is trying to convert him to Christianity. If that is ALL he is doing, and he is NOT issuing a polemic against Christianity in general, then I take back what I said.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

DownwithIslam, I don't think Judeanoncapta is anti-Chabad. Far from it. He has some theological issues with them (especially their rabbi), but he does not think they are bad Jews that must be converted.

Now, I do agree with you that when 99% of Chabad are hardcore Zionists even if just by default, there isn't really a need to argue with any of their views, at least on this forum. I think my analogy between Chabad/Breslov Hasidic Jews and other conservative, biblical Jews and Pentecostals and non-Pentecostal right-wing Bible-believing Christians was valid--there might be some genuine theological differences at the microcosmic level, but nothing worth airing public disagreements over when they agree on 99% of matters of faith and culture.

[q_q_]

True, I am all in favor of "live and let live" when it comes to christians and not attempting to proselytize christians.

However, the christian he debated was a Jew who had converted to christianity. When the Christian world spends millions of dollars every year to convert Jews to christianity, Jews are required to respond. And that is what Rabbi Mizrahi was doing. I do not oppose him on that at all.

I will confess I don't really know who this Rabbi is and exactly what he is saying about Christianity. Obviously he has the right to debate a Christian who is trying to convert him to Christianity. If that is ALL he is doing, and he is NOT issuing a polemic against Christianity in general, then I take back what I said.

Some do issue arguments against christianity in general(as a response to missionaries).. he styled it as a response to that christian missionary that was bothering them.

Of course to counter missionaries one would be arguing against christianity in general.  But it's to counter missionaries. It's not targetted to a gentile audience.

I don't think you will find ONE rabbi or jewish organisation that targets a gentile audience and argues against christianity.

[q_q_]

DownwithIslam, I don't think Judeanoncapta is anti-Chabad. Far from it. He has some theological issues with them (especially their rabbi), but he does not think they are bad Jews that must be converted.

Now, I do agree with you that when 99% of Chabad are hardcore Zionists even if just by default, there isn't really a need to argue with any of their views, at least on this forum. I think my analogy between Chabad/Breslov Hasidic Jews and other conservative, biblical Jews and Pentecostals and non-Pentecostal right-wing Bible-believing Christians was valid--there might be some genuine theological differences at the microcosmic level, but nothing worth airing public disagreements over when they agree on 99% of matters of faith and culture.

As Wafa Sultan said. People have the right to decide what they are called..

Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.