Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.

LOL I do recall saying "by default". But someone of such great rhetorical depth as you probably missed such an inconspicuous comment.

[q_q_]

Chabad would not call themselves Zionists.  To call them "hardcore zionists" is crazy.  Very ignorant. Though that is to be expected.. I don't know why you speak in detail about chabad and breslov when you cannot possibly know about them.

LOL I do recall saying "by default". But someone of such great rhetorical depth as you probably missed such an inconspicuous comment.

They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.

Being the huge fan of the Lubavitch that you are, I guess you would know.

[q_q_]

They certainly would not call themselves zionists "by default" either.

Being the huge fan of the Lubavitch that you are, I guess you would know.

I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.

Yeah.

[muman613]

I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.

Yeah.

C.F,

In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.

[q_q_]

I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.

Yeah.

C.F,

In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.

not just chassidus. "non chassidus" too. religious Misnagdim are largely non or anti zionist.

we don't need to repeat though that practically speaking, there is little difference.  No difference in terms of directly costing jewish lives giving land. The difference is on a theoretical point in the past, possibly a theoretical point on the future, and  the semantics of the word zionism.

Shas's big problem costing jewish lives, is not that they are not religious zionist. It's that they give land for peace when it's, against the Torah according to RZs.  Infact, according to ovadia yosef, it's against the Torah to give land when it doesn't get true peace, the guy is a mess.

There is a big difference between non-zionists and rabbi bar hayyim religious zionism in terms of future dreams.. psychologically and in jewish life. But this is not the issue of directly costing jewish lives with suicidal policies.

In britain, we had only 2 or 3 rabbis that would write in the main jewish press defending israel. One chabad, one died, and one religious zionist that has since made aliyah.  Often in the right wing modern orthodox shuls, even centrist modern orthodox, the rabbi is not a zionist even if many conregants are. And modern orthodox in britain is to the left of in The USA. (some are like many masorti type congregants with an orthodox rabbi that makes sure things are run properly and any religious jew is able to daven there). still, there aren't many RZ rabbis in the diaspora (if there were they would go to israel)..  So, it's far from just chassidim. It's misnagdim too.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).

[DownwithIslam]

                                                                                                                                                                             בס''ד

This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.

What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.

I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).

Chaim, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. I do not think that Rabbi Mizrahi is a bad person, I just think that he has made terrible mistakes, one of which was leaving the land of Israel. I mean cmon, is he saying that their are no jews in Israel who need to be brought back to judaism? I am sure the work that he does could be done in Israel and it is in fact much needed there. Chaim you didn't mention this but I believe he does a crime by bashing christians in general while he fails to point out the millions of bible believing christians who pray for Israel. Many of the young people who go to his lecture come away thinking that all the "goyim" are the enemy.

Now onto Chaimfans point about judeanoncapta and lubavitch. I know what Judeanoncaptas position is on lubavitch as he did a show awhile back and I have discussed it with him awhile ago. Of course I don't agree with him but why would I focus on what we disagree on when their is so much more we do agree on. I dont even bring up chabad to him because I would rather just discuss what we agree on and try to help this forum together.

Muman613, I don't know what Chabad calls themselves but I have spoken to enough lubavitchers to know that they are viscously against any form of land withdrawals, tons  of them live in Israel and they all totally support Israel and the jews living there. They are heavily involved in the success of the land of Israel. I think you are referring to lubavitch over a hundred years ago when they were opposed to zionism. Ever since the lstate of Israel was created, they have been zionists.

And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

[q_q_]

<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!

[q_q_]

I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..

But from a purely academic perspective..

straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says

in tractate ketuvot 111A,  (and that page has been mentioned before)

Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon  for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.

One scary thing is
"R. Eleazar stated: The dead outside the Land  will not be resurrected; for it is said in Scripture, And I will set glory  in the land of the living,  [implying] the dead of the land in which I have my desire  will be resurrected, but the dead [of the land] in which I have no desire will not be resurrected."

I just checked.. apparently both the RAMBAM and the RAMBAN are buried in israel.  Maybe the RAMBAM wanted to be buried there for that reason..

[DownwithIslam]

<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!

Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.

[q_q_]

Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.

you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you. 

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.

[DownwithIslam]

<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.

maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c.  There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.


i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)

it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists.. 

The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.

Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..

Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.

Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this

The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.

note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!

Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.

you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...

and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.

chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)

In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.

Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this?  Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you. 

Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..

The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all..  .

Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.

BTW, Religious Anti-Zionism or religious non-zionism, is nothing like Secular anti-zionism..   The latter is anti-semitic.

Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.

[DownwithIslam]

Q_Q, it seems that you consider everyone other than yourself and one or two of your buddies to be unintellectual. I remember when you said mord wasn't a deep thinker a few months back. Now you repeatedly talk down to me in this thread. These comments of your are not necessary and dont contribute to a healthy forum.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.

if that's all that matters to you,  then that's all that matters to you.

So don't ask me for what "I think" a zionist is..  And if that's really what you were asking me, as if it's limited to what "I think". Then it really is a pointless question. I knew that straight away, and was smart enough to give good reasons why not to take it too seriously, which is why I gave it a one sentence answer. A good answer, but just one sentence for you.

[q_q_]

Q_Q, it seems that you consider everyone other than yourself and one or two of your buddies to be unintellectual. I remember when you said mord wasn't a deep thinker a few months back. Now you repeatedly talk down to me in this thread. These comments of your are not necessary and dont contribute to a healthy forum.

There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 

[DownwithIslam]

<snip>
Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.

if that's all that matters to you,  then that's all that matters to you.

So don't ask me for what "I think" a zionist is..  And if that's really what you were asking me, as if it's limited to what "I think". Then it really is a pointless question. I knew that straight away, and was smart enough to give good reasons why not to take it too seriously, which is why I gave it a one sentence answer. A good answer, but just one sentence for you.

I was curious to know what you thought a zionist was amidst the confusion. Of course you don't have to answer and that's fine. You have to stop the personal attacks though. You have a habit of calling people unitellectual and not deep thinkers when you disagree with them. That has to stop for the good of the forum. It's fine for you not to agree with me on zionism, chabad and other things but you can't turn it into a personal attack. I don't agree with many people here but I don't perpetrate personal attacks on them.

[q_q_]

<snip>
I was curious to know what you thought a zionist was amidst the confusion. Of course you don't have to answer and that's fine. You have to stop the personal attacks though. You have a habit of calling people unitellectual and not deep thinkers when you disagree with them. That has to stop for the good of the forum. It's fine for you not to agree with me on zionism, chabad and other things but you can't turn it into a personal attack. I don't agree with many people here but I don't perpetrate personal attacks on them.

The answer is.. I already answered you.  I really did write the answer.. I just didn't elaborate as much as I could have, and don't intend to.

[DownwithIslam]

Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.

[q_q_]

Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.

ok,

but there are still certain facts you should see without just forgetting the conditions that form reality.

For whatever reasons, There are discussions that I could have with , say, KahaneBT,  that I can't have with you or muman.  You can think of it as a personality clash if you like.

[DownwithIslam]

Ok, just no more personal attacks. Lets forget this happened.

ok,

but there are still certain facts you should see without just forgetting the conditions that form reality.

For whatever reasons, There are discussions that I could have with , say, KahaneBT,  that I can't have with you or muman.  You can think of it as a personality clash if you like.

Thats probably because he agrees with you more. The real accomplishment is to be able to hold back insults when you are dealing with people who dont agree with you on some issues. You are forgetting that we agree on many things as well.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.

In practice they certainly are, and that is what matters much more than every facet of HaRav Schneerson's doctrine.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 

And I recall about six months back how you posted about four pages' worth of posts of apology for the Neturei Karta (yimach schmam vezichram). Granted, DownwithIslam and I aren't great, esteemed, rational, intellectual Torah Scholars such as yourself (btw, what rabbinical school have you received your smicha from?), but that does tend to affect your credibility and rationality in the sense of the eyes of most forum members here.

But DWI asked you an extremely simple question, and the fact that you wouldn't, or couldn't, answer it leads me to question just how "scholarly" and "logical" you really are.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

There are many discussions i've had with you in the past where i've gone straight into serious discussions, and the way you responded was very very bad.. Talk about unhealthy, you were like a cancer to the forum, destroying all healthy dialogue. That was about a year ago.

At least here between us there is no really serious discussion to be destroyed by you.
Believe me, there is less havok here than in previous encounters.

Take my suggestion, and if you have a question, which I said, was an intellectual issue. I told you, i'm not the person to explain it to you. Don't ask me.  And as I very quickly unravelled, you weren't exactly asking me what a religious zionist was anyway, and the answer didn't matter to you either. Which is what I told you already long ago. 

But DWI asked you an extremely simple question, and the fact that you wouldn't, or couldn't, answer it leads me to question just how "scholarly" and "logical" you really are.

 You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.