Author Topic: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people  (Read 1870 times)

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Offline q_q_

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PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« on: January 05, 2009, 11:03:39 AM »
what are your responses?

here are a few..

When they talk of "palestinian" suffering.
"Gazans" elected Hamas, who kill as many innocent israelis as possible, so they shouldn't complain when Israel kills them. 
When Israel's death toll rises, (it's good news for them, freeing palestine), they celebrate. So they shouldn't expect everybody to sympathise when their death toll rises.

If they want to talk about checkpoints, - Preventing suicide bombing is more important than arabs getting bothered queuing at a checkpoint.
Israel is not going to let them flow in and be suicide bombed. No sane country would.

When they complain about israel not following international law.. As Kahane said to an arab.. "When you don't want to follow international law, you don't follow international law. I understand that. So don't play games"..   [1]

We can thus show their hypocrisy by the universal/humanitarian standards they pretend to uphold when they cry for sympathy and criticise israel.

Standard Israeli PR has a few problems.

I think.. it doesn't make that much sense to to condemn them for breaking international law , though one could.. nit picking and making the case that they break it worse. Or using nit picking over a word, to say that israel doesn't.
(I recall when  uner Kofi Annan, the UN convened to make resolutions against israel.. and kofi annan would condemn israel,,  it's hard to say that israel is in line with international law. kofi annan perhaps is not a lawyer but he was a figurehead, as is any UN head. And no doubt the UN has not changed, though I don't pay attention to it anymore)
Once you have to nitpick, you've lost the argument - if you want to be strict!

It is a bit crazy to argue that israel abides by international law , because we don't really care about it either.  And we don't want an arab state.
We don't have to be more moral than them though..  If they condemn israel for breaking it... we can respond that they break it, and are playing games.

And i'm sure we agree here.. it doesn't make sense to -brag- about how much land israel has given away..  Infact, as kahane it implies that we believe we are thieves. If they say it is their land, and we don't say it is ours, or we give it away.

As a right wing pro israel person, the standard PR is simply not usable.
It's not defending israel.  It's defending the Israeli government.

Rabbi kahane didn't do much writing in terms of PR.. But we have some of his exchanges with arabs..  Rabbi Kahane's focus was to save israel. Whether the world loves israel or not.   "Better an israel that is hated by the whole world, than an auschwitz that the world loves".   Still, we in the diaspora can look at PR..

But not traditional PR  It has those problems

I think we should try to extend that form of PR.. But it's difficult to come up with anything else nearly as good as kahane did.

[1]
that was at a national press club speech.
(I might add, Arab countries did worse than "break international law", they -tried- to commit genocide(real ethnic cleansing of jews). And breaking international law ,  trying to commit genocide, that is what they do today "gazans" voted for Hamas.  )  (I don't know if it makes a difference, but the arab countries were members of the UN, though I suppose "palestinians" aren't. )
Genocide is wrong.. As Kahane said at Brandeis ,  when they compared to jews to nazis.  If the jews had wanted to take over germany and call it Israel, then the germans would have had every right , not to kill the jews, but to move them out.  The jews wanted to be germans. The palestinians don't want to be jews.

note- Genocide happens to be against international law.. If they wanted a detail about international law.. Hamas (thanks to netanyahu for pointing this one out), make a double war crime under the 4th geneva convention , by rocketing civilians  and hiding behind civilians).


I might say..  Instead of just complaining about jews killing arabs, they can complain about arabs killing arabs all the time.   the wars between sunni and shia..  Jordan killing thousands of "palestinians" in one day.  Or not too long ago.  Since israel pulled jews and army outposts from gaza.  From 2005 to the end of 2008. "palestinians" in gaza have been killing each other, Fatah(militant wing-al aqsa martyrs brigate) and Hamas.  They can condemn that too, we never see them carrying  banners against that.
Kahane used arabs killing arabs as an example of why we can't live with them.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:17:00 AM by q_q_ »

Offline Lisa

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 11:17:01 AM »
Great post, q_q.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2009, 11:28:45 AM »
A fact often missed is that the Israeli Defense Ministry stubbornly refused to employ or even test technological means to intercept the Kassam rockets fired from Gaza. To make a long story short, Israel refused to protect its attacked citizens with a C-RAM system based on the Phalanx canon or a laser canon. Both said to be tested successfully in Iraq for similar aims. There were serious public objections to this policy, even a semi-campaign led by the Haaretz newspaper to at least try one of these weapon systems but the MoD stood firm.

Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's. They are so pampered by the world community that they are so used to the UN hand outs and re-construction projects, yet they use all the money to construct smuggling arms and building up more armaments. It is like Pakistan US fed with about 4 billion dollers after 9/11 and they used it to strengthen their military. World Media please it is time to give Israel a free hand in this to stop this madness of Hamas!

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »
Lisa:  I didn't mean what are your responses as in did you like it or not.  (I would say that some of it near the end is half baked, though that's why it's at the end)

I meant what are your responses in the PR war.


"Palestinian" claims. And good responses.

Offline syyuge

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2009, 02:39:40 PM »
Crush Hamas, Take back Gaza.
Pak666 and Gazans are the Jackals of the same desert. :beast:
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »
A fact often missed is that the Israeli Defense Ministry stubbornly refused to employ or even test technological means to intercept the Kassam rockets fired from Gaza. To make a long story short, Israel refused to protect its attacked citizens with a C-RAM system based on the Phalanx canon or a laser canon. Both said to be tested successfully in Iraq for similar aims. There were serious public objections to this policy, even a semi-campaign led by the Haaretz newspaper to at least try one of these weapon systems but the MoD stood firm.

that's a criticism -from the right- of the israeli government.

traditional PR efforts use these things as examples to defend israel "look how nice israel is(to terrorists).. we don't protect our own citizens"

but it's silly.

infact, I don't normally hear them going that far.. they normally argue how restrained they are as if it's a great thing that they deserve a biscuit for.
 
Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's. They are so pampered by the world community that they are so used to the UN hand outs and re-construction projects, yet they use all the money to construct smuggling arms and building up more armaments. It is like Pakistan US fed with about 4 billion dollers after 9/11 and they used it to strengthen their military. World Media please it is time to give Israel a free hand in this to stop this madness of Hamas!

this is also silly.. very traditional and backward..

to ask "gazans" to take collective responsibility.  They want to destroy israel and you tell them they are behaving irresponsibly?  they should stop smuggling arms? They want the arms. They believe it's their land.  It's not that they are being immature, taking their eye of their goal of living in peace with israel.

Your idea though nice, is just a very silly extreme example of the kind of "PR" that has to stop.    It's PR that is bias towards a 2 state solution, and slanted towards the idea that we have to hope and work towards getting the "palestinians" to accept a 2 state solution living side by side in peace with israel.  It's not going to happen and jews are dying under this illusion that it will.  The only solution is transfer.. Rabbi Kahane would counter arab claims and offer his solution of transfer..  The PR idea though in the sense of going on the offensive, wasn't really something rabbi kahane did..  He just advanced his solution of transfer, and he answered arabs or leftists when they tried their thing. I'm not sure how he'd have gone about PR.   PR is a message to the world..

I will post rabbi kahane's message to the world.. It's his famous Dear World essay.



 

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2009, 05:04:58 PM »
http://www.kahanetzadak.com/dear.html

DEAR WORLD
By Rabbi Meir Kahane, Zt"l
(November, 1988)

Dear World,

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged! Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign.

It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people - upset you.

We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset.

We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you.

What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home - to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.

Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state - we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East.

Moscow is upset and Washington is upset.

The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs.

Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron - in 1929.

Dear World, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then?

The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them.

Dear World, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres.

You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us.

In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.



Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2009, 08:02:54 PM »

Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's.


This is actually a very good response to those that accuse Israel of killing innocent people.

Unfortunately, these days it's not politically correct to embrace the concept of collective guilt and collective punishment, and such a response would be rejected by the brainwashed leftists and pro-moooozie contingent.

But the fact is that Hamas was elected by the arabs squatting in Gaza. The fact is the 'civilian' population of Gaza is squarely and firmly behind Hamas. The fact is the 'civilians' in Gaza harbor, aid and abet Hamas. The fact is the 'civilians' in Gaza ARE Hamas.

So although your 'collective guilt and collective punishment' response to those accusing Israel of killing 'innocents' wouldn't be warmly recepted, it is nonetheless, the unvarnished truth.

Rav Kahane did touch on this concept several times.

He would bring up the firebombing of Dresden during WWII as an example.

The Rav would ask 'Who do you think was in Dresden ? No one but Nazi generals ?' The Rav would explain that the Allies knew that Dresden wasn't full of high ranking Nazis or many strategically valuable targets. No, it was overwhelmingly populated by what would be called today, 'innocent civilians'.

Nonetheless, the Allies unleashed a fire-bomb campaign that killed over 100,000 people in a single night !!

And they unleashed this inferno precisely because the residents of Dresden were regarded as part of the Nazi war machine. For that, they bore a collective guilt - and for that, they were collectively punished.

Hardly a tear was shed for the 'innocents' in Dresden, and the truth is no tears were deserved.

And today, no tears should be shed for any Gazans killed by Israel.

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2009, 08:19:08 PM »

Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's.


This is actually a very good response to those that accuse Israel of killing innocent people.

Unfortunately, these days it's not politically correct to embrace the concept of collective guilt and collective punishment, and such a response would be rejected by the brainwashed leftists and pro-moooozie contingent.


HinduZionist used the expression "collective responsibility"


But the fact is that Hamas was elected by the arabs squatting in Gaza. The fact is the 'civilian' population of Gaza is squarely and firmly behind Hamas. The fact is the 'civilians' in Gaza harbor, aid and abet Hamas. The fact is the 'civilians' in Gaza ARE Hamas.

So although your 'collective guilt and collective punishment' response to those accusing Israel of killing 'innocents' wouldn't be warmly recepted, it is nonetheless, the unvarnished truth.

Rav Kahane did touch on this concept several times.

I doubt rabbi kahane ever once used the term collective guilt, i'd like to know what it means.

I don't think rabbi kahane would like the sound of it!!

bombing dresden had nothing to do with "collective guilt"!!!!!!!


He would bring up the firebombing of Dresden during WWII as an example.

That was better than an example of collective punishment.

It was an example of targetting innocent people being legitimate.

He said "who were they killing ? Generals?

(certainly killing of innocents is a necessary but terrible part of war)


And that wasn't an example of Germans being responsible or guilty. It was a question of an evil of war.

I would say that in Gaza, they are , as you say, all Hamas.. And so it's all good. There are no innocent civilians.  Hamas's only or main goal is removing Israel, killing jews.. They voted for it, they are not innocent.

" In Gaza, a poll taken in June that Palestinian and Israeli analysts both respect found that 78 percent of the population approved of the attacks carried out in their name in Israel or on its frontiers"


Regarding killing of innocents.. it's a question of who is right and who is wrong. that makes it right or wrong.
The allies bombing dresden had a just cause. The arabs have an ujust cause, eliminating israel, genocide. They tried a second holocaust in 1948 and have tried ever since. They even massacred jews before then too (eg 1929 they did anti-zionist jews, perhaps because the idea of zionism scared them and they attacked all jews)
<snip>

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2009, 08:46:08 PM »
The point is you started a thread asking how people should respond to the PR campaign that Israel is killing innocent people.

HinduZionist said: "Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's."

To which you responded:"this is also silly.. very traditional and backward..

to ask "gazans" to take collective responsibility."

I don't think it's backwards at all to expect Gazans to take responsibility for electing and supporting Hamas.

Neither would Rav Kahane, as evidenced by his discourse on Dresden.

On a personal note: qq, you're a pretty bright guy, but the nitpicking, contentious, often confrontational tone of your posts is starting to wear thin.

Take a deep breath and relax. You're amongst people who largely agree with you here.

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2009, 08:50:45 PM »
Muck DeFuslims,  I responded very specifically. 

I'm not here to agree with you on obvious things. 

If you can't handle your opinions challenged strongly, then don't give them in a discussion forum!

There is nothing wrong with saying that an idea is silly.. I said why.

If confrontation on an intellectual level is too much for you, then that's pathetic. Don't take a position!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 08:54:31 PM »
We know that the world hates Jews. We know that the world loves to invent blood libels about Jews. We know that the world will do everything in their power to make Jews look like Nazis and Nazis look like heroes. Remember what the academic/media establishment did to the heroic Bielski Partisans?

There are no Jews, even on the so-called "hawkish right", who want to see Arab children killed (regrettably, in my opinion). Even the most stalwart Zionists only want to attack the actual terrorists and leave the "civilians" (even though they are helping the terrorists and many of them become terrorists eventually) alone. The idea that there are any Jews who want a total holy war against Amalek (because that is what Islamic Nazis are), even though the Bible commands it, is a pathetic piece of rubbish that the Nazi nations promote.

How I wish even a few Jews actually did want to kill "innocent"  Muzzies!

Offline muman613

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2009, 09:07:42 PM »
We know that the world hates Jews. We know that the world loves to invent blood libels about Jews. We know that the world will do everything in their power to make Jews look like Nazis and Nazis look like heroes. Remember what the academic/media establishment did to the heroic Bielski Partisans?

There are no Jews, even on the so-called "hawkish right", who want to see Arab children killed (regrettably, in my opinion). Even the most stalwart Zionists only want to attack the actual terrorists and leave the "civilians" (even though they are helping the terrorists and many of them become terrorists eventually) alone. The idea that there are any Jews who want a total holy war against Amalek (because that is what Islamic Nazis are), even though the Bible commands it, is a pathetic piece of rubbish that the Nazi nations promote.

How I wish even a few Jews actually did want to kill "innocent"  Muzzies!

CF,

I believe you have a good intention but you are not fully aware of what Amalek is. To claim that Jews, especially religious Jews, dont want to kill Amalek is ridiculous. It is a constant mitzvah to 'remember what Amalek did to us on our way' and I make sure to remember this mitzvah. As I explained to you before, according to Jewish understanding, the Arabs are not Amalek.

According to Jewish belief the Arabs are descended from Ishmael, not from Essau, from whom Amalek is born. I just listened to a good Rabbi shuir on this topic "Who are the Enemies of the Jews". Amalek was born from a union of a concubine with one of Essaus sons. The last know blood incarnation of Amalek was Haman who was Persian.

If you can show that the Arabs are Amalek through lineage I think there would be something to complain about. Hashem did not implore the Jews to hate Ishmael. It seems that Ishmael is just acting out because they did not receive Abrahams inheritance {because Sarah had Abraham kick Hagar and Ishmael out of the house without any money}.

http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Remembering_Amalek.asp
http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Haman_Heir_to_Amalek.asp
http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/A_Question_of_Race$.asp

http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/2825/jewish/Amalek.htm


There may be an argument that Ishmael and Amalek have become united and are acting together. But I have not heard it discussed except for at this Chabad page here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/296220/jewish/Remember-The-Answer-to-Terrorism.htm

But even that site concludes with this statement:

Quote
We have the ability and the power to destroy Amalek. There is the Amalek within each and every one of us that seeks to weaken us individually, and there is the Amalek that seeks to universally bring us down. Both must be eradicated. And when they are, it is then that we can be redeemed. For we are taught that in order for Moshiach to come, we must first rid the world of Amalek, of the evil that seeks to destroy us.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5762/tetzaveh.html

Quote
.
.
.
We have a wonderful and illustrious heritage, and much history to remember. Judaism calls upon us to recall the Exodus from Egypt, the Revelation at Sinai, and above all our unique relationship with G-d.

This week, though, we find one of our oddest "remembrances" in the special Maftir which precedes the Purim holiday. G-d commands us to remember that the nation of Amalek attacked us at the beginning of the Exodus -- and to destroy its remembrance. Amalek attempted to destroy the Jewish People, and to deny our unique relationship with our Creator, and therefore we are called upon to destroy Amalek instead.

There are no modern maps with "Amalek" listed. There is no Amalekite government, no UN representative, not even an Internet Country Code. The only people remembering Amalek are the Jews, and we have a Commandment to destroy their memory. It would seem that the best way to perform this Mitzvah is also the easiest -- namely, to forget the whole thing.

Would that it were so simple! It may be true that there is no nation to which we can point, but Amalek's descendants live on: ideological descendants, and, according to the Medrash, even physical ones. We read this special Parsha of Remembrance immediately before Purim, because Haman was from the Amalekites. Nazi Germany, of course, also followed this same ideology, and there are certain Talmudic passages about a country called "Germania" during the Roman Diaspora (the current exile) which seem eerily prescient today. There may be no country called Amalek, but the commitment to destroy the Jews is alive and well. You can find ideological Amalekites in Europe, the Middle East, even in America. Clearly, we still need to remember.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 09:19:02 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2009, 09:18:04 PM »
the nation of amelek is  surely mixed with other nations.. (if it goes for example strictly down the father or something, then I suppose we do have pure amalekites today)

but I think any nation can manifest itself as amalek spiritually..

Though Amalek has to be identified properly.   

Certainly though the arabs are behaving like amalek.  Going after the women and children.. (and their goal, eliminating the nation of israel / killing jews).

These Arabs are strongly connected to most or all of our biblical enemies.
Amelek, Yishmael, Canaanites, Philistines.
Infact, they claim descent from all the those last 3, even though it's certainly impossible to be a yishmaelite and a canaanite.. since looking at Noah's sons Shem Ham and Yafet. Canaan was a son of Ham.  Yishmael was a Shemite.


Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2009, 09:19:40 PM »
Muck DeFuslims,  I responded very specifically. 

I'm not here to agree with you on obvious things. 

If you can't handle your opinions challenged strongly, then don't give them in a discussion forum!

There is nothing wrong with saying that an idea is silly.. I said why.

If confrontation on an intellectual level is too much for you, then that's pathetic. Don't take a position!

You're still missing the point and being an anal retentive, nitpicker.

There was nothing intellectual about your response to HinduZionist. On the contrary you called his idea about citing Gazan collective responsibility as: "silly...very traditional and backwards". Then you went off on a tangent about HinduZionist's response supporting a 2 state solution, which he never did--nor did his post suggest it.

Your's wasn't an intellectual response to HinduZionist, but it was a needlessly combative one. And an incorrect one, as Rav Kahane's Dresden analogy proved.

What you consider to be specific responses are often contentious, nitpicking, combative, confrontational details and comments. It's no wonder you're constantly fighting with members of this forum.

I'll say it again...Take a deep breath and relax.

Offline muman613

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 09:21:21 PM »
the nation of amelek is  surely mixed with other nations.. (if it goes for example strictly down the father or something, then I suppose we do have pure amalekites today)

but I think any nation can manifest itself as amalek spiritually..

Though Amalek has to be identified properly.   

Certainly though the arabs are behaving like amalek.  Going after the women and children.. (and their goal, eliminating the nation of israel / killing jews).

These Arabs are strongly connected to most or all of our biblical enemies.
Amelek, Yishmael, Canaanites, Philistines.
Infact, they claim descent from all the those last 3, even though it's certainly impossible to be a yishmaelite and a canaanite.. since looking at Noah's sons Shem Ham and Yafet. Canaan was a son of Ham.  Yishmael was a Shemite.



q_q_,

I have no problem calling them ideological Amaleks who certainly should be dealt with. I am just relating what I have heard concerning KNOWING who Amalek is in todays times.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 09:21:48 PM »
Muck DeFuslims,  I responded very specifically. 

I'm not here to agree with you on obvious things. 

If you can't handle your opinions challenged strongly, then don't give them in a discussion forum!

There is nothing wrong with saying that an idea is silly.. I said why.

If confrontation on an intellectual level is too much for you, then that's pathetic. Don't take a position!

You're still missing the point and being an anal retentive, nitpicker.

There was nothing intellectual about your response to HinduZionist. On the contrary you called his idea about citing Gazan collective responsibility as: "silly...very traditional and backwards". Then you went off on a tangent about HinduZionist's response supporting a 2 state solution, which he never did--nor did his post suggest it.

Your's wasn't an intellectual response to HinduZionist, but it was a needlessly combative one. And an incorrect one, as Rav Kahane's Dresden analogy proved.

What you consider to be specific responses are often contentious, nitpicking, combative, confrontational details and comments. It's no wonder you're constantly fighting with members of this forum.

I'll say it again...Take a deep breath and relax.

If you can't address the response(quoting me) then there's nothing to discuss.

Are you seriously saying that rabbi kahane's dresden analogy proved me wrong?  State the position of mine that it proves wrong. Show where.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 09:28:38 PM by q_q_ »

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 09:26:39 PM »
q_q_,

I have no problem calling them ideological Amaleks who certainly should be dealt with. I am just relating what I have heard concerning KNOWING who Amalek is in todays times.


I'm not asking you to call them ideological amalekites.

Of course we can't know who amalek is in todays times. It's not just that you heard that we can't know!

The concept of amalek is they have to be killed regardless. Even if you like one of them!

I wouldn't say regarding arabs that even the "best of them" must be killed.. There are one or two - literally - !! Righteous ones. That love israel and their children love israel. 

Amalek has to be killed completely, leaving nobody left. They are born evil.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2009, 09:41:36 PM »
Muck DeFuslims,  I responded very specifically. 

I'm not here to agree with you on obvious things. 

If you can't handle your opinions challenged strongly, then don't give them in a discussion forum!

There is nothing wrong with saying that an idea is silly.. I said why.

If confrontation on an intellectual level is too much for you, then that's pathetic. Don't take a position!

You're still missing the point and being an anal retentive, nitpicker.

There was nothing intellectual about your response to HinduZionist. On the contrary you called his idea about citing Gazan collective responsibility as: "silly...very traditional and backwards". Then you went off on a tangent about HinduZionist's response supporting a 2 state solution, which he never did--nor did his post suggest it.

Your's wasn't an intellectual response to HinduZionist, but it was a needlessly combative one. And an incorrect one, as Rav Kahane's Dresden analogy proved.

What you consider to be specific responses are often contentious, nitpicking, combative, confrontational details and comments. It's no wonder you're constantly fighting with members of this forum.

I'll say it again...Take a deep breath and relax.

If you can't address the response(quoting me) then there's nothing to discuss.

Are you seriously saying that rabbi kahane's dresden analogy proved me wrong?  State the position of mine that it proves wrong. Show where.


Man, you're being obtuse.

You started a thread asking how one could respond to the accusation that Israel is killing innocents.

HinduZionist suggests citing Gazan collective responsibility.

You deem his response as 'silly, traditional and backwards'.

Yet Rav Kahane justifies the fire bombing of Dresden based on collective responsibility--and you agree with the Rav.

So which one is it ? Was the Rav being 'silly and backwards' or was HinduZionist being 'silly and backwards' or were you just being contentious ?

I expect some sort of nonsensical response from you. Go for it, and have the last word. I'm done wasting time on you.

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2009, 10:43:39 PM »
<snip>
I expect some sort of nonsensical response from you. Go for it, and have the last word. I'm done wasting time on you.

In future don't try to "defend people" that are far more capable of "defending themselves" than you are of defending them. Hindu Zionist's response is still the most intelligent anybody has yet offered. (though that doesn't say much)

Of course you couldn't quote my response, but now that you're done, that's very good.

By the way.
Quote from: muck
Rav Kahane justifies the fire bombing of Dresden based on collective responsibility
False (as I told you)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:24:10 PM by q_q_ »

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2009, 11:25:10 AM »
A fact often missed is that the Israeli Defense Ministry stubbornly refused to employ or even test technological means to intercept the Kassam rockets fired from Gaza. To make a long story short, Israel refused to protect its attacked citizens with a C-RAM system based on the Phalanx canon or a laser canon. Both said to be tested successfully in Iraq for similar aims. There were serious public objections to this policy, even a semi-campaign led by the Haaretz newspaper to at least try one of these weapon systems but the MoD stood firm.

that's a criticism -from the right- of the israeli government.

traditional PR efforts use these things as examples to defend israel "look how nice israel is(to terrorists).. we don't protect our own citizens"

but it's silly.

infact, I don't normally hear them going that far.. they normally argue how restrained they are as if it's a great thing that they deserve a biscuit for.
 
Media talks about Collective Punishment by Israelis, what about COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY by the GAZAN's. They are so pampered by the world community that they are so used to the UN hand outs and re-construction projects, yet they use all the money to construct smuggling arms and building up more armaments. It is like Pakistan US fed with about 4 billion dollers after 9/11 and they used it to strengthen their military. World Media please it is time to give Israel a free hand in this to stop this madness of Hamas!

this is also silly.. very traditional and backward..

to ask "gazans" to take collective responsibility.  They want to destroy israel and you tell them they are behaving irresponsibly?  they should stop smuggling arms? They want the arms. They believe it's their land.  It's not that they are being immature, taking their eye of their goal of living in peace with israel.

Your idea though nice, is just a very silly extreme example of the kind of "PR" that has to stop.    It's PR that is bias towards a 2 state solution, and slanted towards the idea that we have to hope and work towards getting the "palestinians" to accept a 2 state solution living side by side in peace with israel.  It's not going to happen and jews are dying under this illusion that it will.  The only solution is transfer.. Rabbi Kahane would counter arab claims and offer his solution of transfer..  The PR idea though in the sense of going on the offensive, wasn't really something rabbi kahane did..  He just advanced his solution of transfer, and he answered arabs or leftists when they tried their thing. I'm not sure how he'd have gone about PR.   PR is a message to the world..

I will post rabbi kahane's message to the world.. It's his famous Dear World essay.
i'm just pointing out the points media failed to focus on.

and i DO NOT support two-nation theory, dunno where this one came from. India has been a victim of two nation theory.. i would never support such theory.

Offline Ulli

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2009, 11:59:36 AM »
quote from q_q
Quote
When they complain about israel not following international law.. As Kahane said to an arab.. "When you don't want to follow international law, you don't follow international law. I understand that. So don't play games"..   [1]

Yes this is very true. The quranimal is the master of selective reception of reality.  >:(
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2009, 01:04:07 PM »
<snip>

I'm just pointing out the points media failed to focus on.

and i DO NOT support two-nation theory, dunno where this one came from. India has been a victim of two nation theory.. i would never support such theory.

I know you don't support a 2 state solution, I never said you did.
It's obvious that you don't

I wasn't asking about what the media fail to focus on either.
This whole thread was started about PR, and requesting comments regarding suggestions. That is not the media's job. 

The disagreement here is on the nature of the PR i.e. arguing israel's case.

Offline q_q_

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2009, 02:52:52 PM »
quote from q_q
Quote
When they complain about israel not following international law.. As Kahane said to an arab.. "When you don't want to follow international law, you don't follow international law. I understand that. So don't play games"..   [1]

Yes this is very true. The quranimal is the master of selective reception of reality.  >:(

It's important to note that he wasn't condemning them for breaking international law.. Just for complaining that israel broke it.

The thing with arabs/muslims, is they are actually quite thick, they really can't see anybody else's view other than themselves even if they tried..(and when they do try they create the enemy in their image, because that's all they know)

But it's useful to them that they don't try.

Jews are more intelligent. So they have to understand the enemy's view. BUT then leftists go and take the enemy's side! they have to take their own side!

Or they take the side of the judge..  but never their own side.

Leftists are defence lawyers for the enemy.

Some take the enemy's side and expect the enemy to take their side(or the western/israeli govt 2 state solution  side, which the arabs see as the enemy side)! They moaning about how the arabs have no peace demonstrations.

It's fine to understand that the arabs have no peace demonstrations and show their intentions with it.. But  Moaning about it or expecting them to change is not.

the arabs may be able to try to blame israel for not following international law (kahane answered perfectly of course).   But they can't even try to blame israel for not going peace demonstrations!

Offline Sentinel For Truth

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Re: PR war - israel killing "innocent" people
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2009, 03:55:53 AM »
Bring back the good old B-52 and carpet bomb the frankensteinians into oblivion.  Then retake the territory with a shoot on sight perimeter.

I'm such the diplomat.