Author Topic: Bernie Madoff's victims' list  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline IsraelForever

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Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« on: February 06, 2009, 04:35:59 AM »
Just in case, out of simple curiosity, anyone here is interested in a document containing 162 pages of Madoff's clients, click on the link below.  That link will take you to an article that has another link in it.  And that link brings you to the pdf document.  If you want, you can save that pdf file and email to anyone who you think might be interested.  No word has been invented to describe my feelings toward Madoff and what he knowingly did to so many people and charities.   :'(

http://economy.kansascity.com/?q=node/1047

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 12:19:32 PM »
the print is too small. Can you just put the link of the PDF file up?
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 12:26:25 PM »
You know, I can't bring myself to hate Madoff in the least. First of all, the vast majority of organizations he ripped off are evil, leftist, Jew-hating or self-hating ones. Second of all, you know, I just don't believe that the law should intervene to rectify peoples' stupid business decisions. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to patronize an unscrupulous investor. We have a free market in this country (supposedly) and when the feds spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going after people who have profited off of the stupid in our country, that violates that and drains lots of time and resources from going after real criminals.

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 12:51:11 PM »
You know, I can't bring myself to hate Madoff in the least. First of all, the vast majority of organizations he ripped off are evil, leftist, Jew-hating or self-hating ones. Second of all, you know, I just don't believe that the law should intervene to rectify peoples' stupid business decisions. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to patronize an unscrupulous investor. We have a free market in this country (supposedly) and when the feds spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going after people who have profited off of the stupid in our country, that violates that and drains lots of time and resources from going after real criminals.

JUSTICE!

It doesn't matter if your victims are bad people... A person must be held accountable for the wrongdoing he did. You think that it is OK to rip off people you don't respect? That is a very shaky form of morality.

I fight for justice in the world. This world lacks justice and needs people to judge correctly. I am about to post the list of negative mitzvahs and the next ten have to do with judging correctly {the laws of judges}. Justice is SO important in this world. One of the major reasons Hashem wiped the world clean of all life on land was because everyone became corrupt and stole {even small amounts}. Establishing a court of JUSTICE is even one of the seven Noachide laws.

Maybe it would just be easier if people could pray that the bad people get cancer or something. That seems to be working for you {CF}, doesn't it?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online cjd

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 01:07:39 PM »
I agree muman! A bad investment is one thing but what this guy did was down right evil. Once a person starts to justify evil doings where does it end.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline AsheDina

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 01:24:10 PM »
You know, I can't bring myself to hate Madoff in the least. First of all, the vast majority of organizations he ripped off are evil, leftist, Jew-hating or self-hating ones. Second of all, you know, I just don't believe that the law should intervene to rectify peoples' stupid business decisions. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to patronize an unscrupulous investor. We have a free market in this country (supposedly) and when the feds spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going after people who have profited off of the stupid in our country, that violates that and drains lots of time and resources from going after real criminals.


I AGREE CF. TOTALLY 100%.
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Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:52:27 PM »
You know, I can't bring myself to hate Madoff in the least. First of all, the vast majority of organizations he ripped off are evil, leftist, Jew-hating or self-hating ones. Second of all, you know, I just don't believe that the law should intervene to rectify peoples' stupid business decisions. Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to patronize an unscrupulous investor. We have a free market in this country (supposedly) and when the feds spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going after people who have profited off of the stupid in our country, that violates that and drains lots of time and resources from going after real criminals.


I AGREE CF. TOTALLY 100%.

I also agree with cf 100%. All of madoffs victims were evil. If you look at that list, most of the people ripped off were country club self hating kikes. The others were the alphabet soup jewish organizations. I think madoff has evil intentions but he ended up doing a good deed.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »
Actually my mother and stepdad lost money from the Madoff ripoff scheme. And I know others too who suffered from this. I think people here are just being cruel for their own selfish sake.

Some of the people here are beginning to scare me. So much hatred and ill will. This is not a Jewish trait and it is quite sad...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 03:31:15 PM »
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/The_Jewish_Ethicist_The_Madoff_Aff.asp

"
Trustworthiness is a function of accountability.

Q. Can individuals and institutions be faulted for investing with a seemingly upright and reliable person?

A. The whole world, and especially the Jewish world, is reeling over the revelations that New York financier Bernard Madoff, a prominent member of the US Jewish community has admitted perpetrating what is shaping up as the grandest fraud in human history -- a Ponzi scheme that drew in tens of billions of dollars.

There are always careless and vulnerable individuals who fall prey to smooth-talking confidence men, but in this case the victims include many prominent individuals and institutions that are considered astute and sophisticated. One passage from the Talmud provides interesting insight as to how this occurred, and how it should have been avoided:

    Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav: Anyone who has money and lends it without witnesses, transgresses "Don't put a stumbling block before the blind". And Reish Lakish said, he brings a curse on himself, as it is written (Psalms 31) "Silence the lips of falsehood who slander the righteous".

Putting a stumbling block before the blind is the Jewish sages' way of describing tempting someone into wrongdoing. Even a basically honest person may be tempted to misrepresent the terms of a loan when there is no documentation, and while you think you are doing him a favor by not insisting on proof, in fact you are doing him a disservice by creating this temptation.

Reish Lakish points out an additional problem: If the borrower does deny, the lender suffers a blow not only to his purse but also to his reputation. As it becomes his word against that of the borrower, some observers are certain to question his integrity.

Perhaps we would think that this applies only to an average person, but a person of impeccable reputation could be trusted even without accountability. To refute this possibility, the Talmud continues with the following story:

    The students told Rav Ashi: [The great sage] Ravina fulfills all the directives of the rabbis. [Rav Ashi] sent [Ravina] a message late Sabbath eve: "Send me ten zuz, for I have just encountered an opportunity on a small field". He sent back, "Bring witnesses and let us write a deed." [Rav Ashi] sent back, "Even for me?" He sent back, "Especially you, for you are preoccupied with Torah learning and likely to forget, and I would bring a curse on myself."

We see from this clever test that even Rav Ashi, one of the greatest sages in our history, should not be considered above suspicion when it comes to appropriate accountability. Furthermore, Ravina does not say, "Of course I don't suspect you, but I have to adopt an equitable policy". He insists that in fact no one is immune from requiring the discipline of documentation.

The fraudulent investment service that was just uncovered was audited by a tiny accounting firm with a single active accountant, making adequate overseeing a total impossibility. Most financial firms of only a fraction its size engage large, reputable and independent firms with huge reserves of staff and experience. According to today's standards, this would be equivalent to lacking witnesses and a deed - there is a lack of adequate accountability.

The Talmud continues with a seemingly unrelated idea. It says that someone who lends money without witnesses has only himself to blame, and then includes in the same category "One who buys a master for himself." One explanation given in the Talmud is someone who has a confederate in fraud. Such a person believes that he can trust his confederate to steal with him without stealing from him. Our tradition teaches us that this is unrealistic. A crook is a crook.

This is also relevant to the recent situation. While many people relied on the investment manager's reputation and considered him above suspicion, others were convinced that he was engaged in misconduct but didn't mind because they imagined that he was doing so on their behalf. As they learned, this is not only unethical but also naive.

Our sages teach that controls and accountability are needed to protect both sides in a transaction, from loss, from sin, and from disgrace. Even the greatest individuals can benefit from this discipline to keep them on the straight and narrow path.

SOURCES: Babylonian Talmud Bava Metzia 75a
"
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 03:33:34 PM »
Maybe it would just be easier if people could pray that the bad people get cancer or something. That seems to be working for you {CF}, doesn't it?

Does working yourself into outrage over every imaginable topic that I cover really help your own relationship with G-d, or your peace of mind, or blood pressure?

It's silly that I am the only member who constantly has to explain himself, especially considering that my posts are generally pretty detailed initially, but did I say that the Madoffs of the world are good and righteous people? No. However, G-d often uses evil people to judge and punish other wicked people.

But that is besides the point. In a free market, people are allowed to make whatever economic choices they want, wise or foolish. When the government starts acting like a nanny to clean up when people have suffered due to economic choices that they have made of their own free will, that's Big Brother at minimum and downright socialism at worst. Nobody forces investors and stock buyers to buy into dubious schemes and plans. It's pure capitalism, and unless you want to replace it with Marxism (something I thought you hated at all costs, Muman), it's the way the world works. Some investor losing a bunch of their own money in a Ponzi scheme he willingly participated in is not the same as somebody being robbed at gunpoint, or shoplifting, or even writing a bad check. It's through making mistakes like that, or witnessing others' mistakes, that people learn what works and what doesn't in an economy and move forward to make the market a better place for all.

PS--I am sorry that family members of yours lost money to Madoff, but my answer is the same--in a democracy with a free market, people can choose to invest in or support whatever or whoever they want, and demanding state-imposed financial restitution or punishment for their own poor choices is entitlement and socialism, no matter how you want to slice it.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 03:36:52 PM »
So much hatred and ill will. This is not a Jewish trait and it is quite sad...
Many people would say the same thing of your attitude towards Christianity, and in particular Catholic Christianity.

One of your very first posts on this forum was "It is very clear that Christianity is idol-worship, and there is no debate about this". This was before you knew me or anybody else here, and it was quite out of the blue. You never explained how your claim was true, either.

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 03:37:33 PM »
C.F.,

Yes I am a 100% Capitalist and I abhore the idea of communism. My family has made good money off the stock market and has lost lots of money in it. I dont blame the system.

My point in responding to this post is that good and bad people were hurt by this. Just because a lot of bad people got hurt doesnt make the crime any less of a crime. It seemed to me that you are saying that he is not guilty of doing wrong so long as all his victims were 'evil' people. I disagree with this position.

I am not telling others what to think. I am just bringing up that Justice is important even when the victims are bad people.

I am not picking on you personally and not looking to fight about it. I try to associate with people who look for the good in everyone instead of constantly seeing the bad.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 03:40:30 PM »
So much hatred and ill will. This is not a Jewish trait and it is quite sad...
Many people would say the same thing of your attitude towards Christianity, and in particular Catholic Christianity.

One of your very first posts on this forum was "It is very clear that Christianity is idol-worship, and there is no debate about this". This was before you knew me or anybody else here, and it was quite out of the blue. You never explained how your claim was true, either.

C.F.,

I am not going to get into that debate again. I respect your religion and you are entitled to worhsip what you want. But from a Jewish perspective what I said is Halacha {Jewish law}. Let us not be adversarial in our relationship because it will only further divide this group and I believe it will divide the world.

I have grown to realize that the world is not purely black and white and that it is possible to go through changes in life. I have changed considerably over my lifetime and I am proud that I got out of the pit I was headed for. Teshuva {repentence} is a real thing and I am thankful Hashem provided this to the Jewish people.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 03:45:17 PM »
I agree muman! A bad investment is one thing but what this guy did was down right evil. Once a person starts to justify evil doings where does it end.

CJD and Muman,

Madof is morally evil and will be judged by G-d for his evil intentions, but my point is that in a free market, the government cannot go after each and every person who has acted with fradulent intentions. Probably 90% of secular businessmen or even petty bourgeoisie (as in shop owners, salesmen, etc.) have intended to screw others over at some point in their lives. The feds don't have the money and manpower to rectify every single wrong in the marketplace, and the market would be a much worse place if they did. In capitalism, people get burned and learn from it (hopefully), and that is how people come to avoid schemers and con men.

It would be like asking the federal government to prosecute Jessica Simpson, who I despise, for sexual immorality. She is evil and should be, and will be, judged severely by Hashem (if she does not genuinely repent), but it's craziness to expect the Justice Department to ring her up on federal charges of aggravated whoredom. It just can't happen in our system.

Let G-d handle Madoff for what he has done. I feel sorry for the innocent people that he ripped off, but I will say it again--in a free market, people consensually can devote their money to whatever cause they choose, and sometimes they don't do that prudently. Voluntarily taking part in a dubious investment operation is different from being robbed by force.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 03:47:47 PM »
I am not going to get into that debate again. I respect your religion and you are entitled to worhsip what you want.
You never recanted what you said, for claiming to respect my faith.

As for your claim itself, at best, Halacha is divided on the issue. There is a vast range of opinion on this matter in rabbinical thought. But the majority of rabbinical scholars today would say that Christianity is not idolatry for Gentiles.

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 03:54:08 PM »
I am not going to get into that debate again. I respect your religion and you are entitled to worhsip what you want.
You never recanted what you said, for claiming to respect my faith.

As for your claim itself, at best, Halacha is divided on the issue. There is a vast range of opinion on this matter in rabbinical thought. But the majority of rabbinical scholars today would say that Christianity is not idolatry for Gentiles.

C.F.,

Yes it is not idol worship for non-Jews to worship the Christian g-d. But for a Jew it is most certainly considered Avodah Zarah...

Thank you

http://www.mesora.org/GoldCalfPluralists.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 03:59:26 PM »
Yes it is not idol worship for non-Jews to worship the Christian g-d. But for a Jew it is most certainly considered Avodah Zarah...
That is not what you said before.

Offline muman613

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 04:04:06 PM »
Yes it is not idol worship for non-Jews to worship the Christian g-d. But for a Jew it is most certainly considered Avodah Zarah...
That is not what you said before.

Please quote what I said... I said that according to Halacha a Jew is not supposed to go into the sanctuary of a church {and I can give you a link to yeshiva.org to prove this} because of Avodah Zarah. I am talking from the perspective of being a Jew and my advice is directed toward other Jews. In further discussion we brought up the fact that some rabbis say that for non-Jews it is not considered avodah zarah because non-Jews don't have the responsibilities Hashem gave to the Jewish people.

Im sorry if that discussion hurt you. I was, at the time, unaware of the non-Jewish audience here and I assumed the majority of the readers were Jewish. I have since not discussed this topic till you just now brought it up again.

I don't seek to continue having this confrontation. I am not a missionary trying to get anyone to convert to Judaism. I am very much trying to prevent Jews from assimilating into a non-Jewish culture.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 04:08:10 PM »
Chaim himself has said that Jews are forbidden from entering the house of worship of another religion, period. We never debated that. Nobody was missionizing on this forum except the long-banned Nazi, Anus-T (yimach schmo vezichro), and a couple of bit members who were immediately banned as well.

Your expressing disdain for Catholicism in the other thread was unwarranted. We all disagreed when he reinstated "Bishop" Williamson, rightfully so, and correctly urged Catholics to protest this to the Vatican, and we were heard out. Whether or not we are Catholics, we need to give Pope Benedict credit for making the right choice in demanding a retraction of Williamson's Holocaust denial.

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 04:11:52 PM »
Chaim himself has said that Jews are forbidden from entering the house of worship of another religion, period. We never debated that. Nobody was missionizing on this forum except the long-banned Nazi, Anus-T (yimach schmo vezichro), and a couple of bit members who were immediately banned as well.

Your expressing disdain for Catholicism in the other thread was unwarranted. We all disagreed when he reinstated "Bishop" Williamson, rightfully so, and correctly urged Catholics to protest this to the Vatican, and we were heard out. Whether or not we are Catholics, we need to give Pope Benedict credit for making the right choice in demanding a retraction of Williamson's Holocaust denial.

C.F.,

If I remember I was the one who asked for people to try to change the Popes decision. I never said anything derogatory about it except that the Church does have a poor record when it comes to relations with the Jewish people. I am very happy that he has asked the Bishop to recant the denials.

Let us hope that the Bishop makes a complete repentence and does it sincerely. If that is the case then the case is closed, in my opinion.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Abben

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 05:55:41 PM »
I want to know why he isn't in jail. I mean if anyone of us did that we would all be in jail so fast. Even crazy eddie went to jail

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 06:11:52 PM »
I agree muman! A bad investment is one thing but what this guy did was down right evil. Once a person starts to justify evil doings where does it end.

CJD and Muman,

Madof is morally evil and will be judged by G-d for his evil intentions, but my point is that in a free market, the government cannot go after each and every person who has acted with fradulent intentions. Probably 90% of secular businessmen or even petty bourgeoisie (as in shop owners, salesmen, etc.) have intended to screw others over at some point in their lives. The feds don't have the money and manpower to rectify every single wrong in the marketplace, and the market would be a much worse place if they did. In capitalism, people get burned and learn from it (hopefully), and that is how people come to avoid schemers and con men.

It would be like asking the federal government to prosecute Jessica Simpson, who I despise, for sexual immorality. She is evil and should be, and will be, judged severely by Hashem (if she does not genuinely repent), but it's craziness to expect the Justice Department to ring her up on federal charges of aggravated whoredom. It just can't happen in our system.

Let G-d handle Madoff for what he has done. I feel sorry for the innocent people that he ripped off, but I will say it again--in a free market, people consensually can devote their money to whatever cause they choose, and sometimes they don't do that prudently. Voluntarily taking part in a dubious investment operation is different from being robbed by force.
I am not big on government regulation but for certain things the government does need to oversee things to a level. Buying stocks and securities is not like buying a house or car or any other tangible for that matter its something that's abstract. If the government didn't have a level of over site on this industry this type of theft would be so rampant most average folks would not be able to invest in it. The people that were taken by this animal did not loose their money because of a poor investment they lost it because there was no investment and that is the problem. People investing with that animal thought that they were protected by a level of government oversight that insured that the business was at the minimum being run by the guidelines of the S.E.C. The government has no choice but to show that Madoff fooled not only the public but even them. This guy needs to be run over the coals hard he needs to be stripped of all his ill got gains and do some serious jail time. It's bad enough for people to loose money on bad investments but to be robbed outright from day one is just not right. What happens to Madoff in G-ds hands is fine but he needs to pay a bit here in this world also.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 06:24:34 PM »
I want to know why he isn't in jail. I mean if anyone of us did that we would all be in jail so fast. Even crazy eddie went to jail
I wonder how many people remember Crazy Eddie Antar ?

































He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2009, 06:50:30 PM »
I am not going to get into that debate again. I respect your religion and you are entitled to worhsip what you want.
You never recanted what you said, for claiming to respect my faith.

As for your claim itself, at best, Halacha is divided on the issue. There is a vast range of opinion on this matter in rabbinical thought. But the majority of rabbinical scholars today would say that Christianity is not idolatry for Gentiles.

C.F.,

Yes it is not idol worship for non-Jews to worship the Christian g-d. But for a Jew it is most certainly considered Avodah Zarah...

Thank you

http://www.mesora.org/GoldCalfPluralists.htm


 Dude, do NOT misquote Halacha in order to make peace or whatever other reason. It is forbidden for Jews and for Gentiles by the vast majority of Talmidi Hachamim. If you dont want to put it in the face of cristians and others then dont bring it up, but dont appease other's. By you appeasing and saying, it's okay, its this or its that, then you are easing their conscious from following something that is defined by Halacha as false. If you dont have the beitzim to tell them that then dont bring it up.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Bernie Madoff's victims' list
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2009, 07:18:25 PM »
Yes Tzvi, we know what your position on Christianity is, thank you.