Author Topic: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited  (Read 8153 times)

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Offline Lisa

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2009, 01:10:16 PM »
Yes.  American Renaissance.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2009, 01:11:20 PM »
It doesn't matter where it's copied from, Amren is a Nazi Hitlerite organization and none of its poison belongs within a hundred miles of JTF.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2009, 01:20:19 PM »
It doesn't matter where it's copied from, Amren is a Nazi Hitlerite organization and none of its poison belongs within a hundred miles of JTF.

My article didn't come from Amren though.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2009, 01:56:06 PM »
I can accept the scientific fact that intelligence is genetically determined without thinking anything drastic should be done with that knowledge.

If we are going to use that knowledge then I don't think it should be used to keep dumb people from having kids, but it might be able to be used to save some resources such as the absolutely insane use of money to try to make black scores equal to white scores on the same standardized tests. That will never happen and it's throwing money down the hole to try to make people equal who are not equal.

Offline briann

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2009, 02:04:01 PM »
I think these studies can be very dangerous.  Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics?  It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons.  No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination.  Just my opinion though. 
I second this.

Also, IQ tests aren't really that great. Racists will always ignore the environmental factors that play in IQ tests. Intellectual accomplishments is what matters. I know people who are lions in Torah and Talmudic studies, these are the smart people I look up to. Take the Talmud for instance; if you do a folio a day, I think you can finish the entire Talmud in 7 years. What an achievement! These same people then go on to quote the Talmud left and right, like a mental Rolodex. Such an intellectual achievement should surely be a sign of a smart individual.

I think we'd all agree that there is a HUGE difference between knowledge and intelligence.  Honestly... some of the most knowledgeable people I know have no common sense or reason... but they are great at playing trivial pursuit.

Don't know the people you are referring to but like I said; IQ tests are nonsense. How else would we measure intelligence? Intellectual achievement is one.

I remember taking an IQ test, I was asked how do you make a martini. I kid you not. I don't drink, how the hell should I know? I threw that junk out. People have called me a genius for my gift of languages, I know 4, learning a 5th. Yet I could bomb any Math test you give me. Go figure. Humans are far too complex to be figured out by some 30 question test.

Let me guess. an internet IQ test.  The same ones that say the average Laker player has a 130 IQ.   Those tests are nonsence... I think we went over that in detail with a previous post.
Nope, was in college when I took it.

Well, it wasn't an IQ test, that I can assure you; even if it was advertised by your professor as such.  Very few people have actually taken a 'true' IQ test.  (I haven't either).  My uncle took it (he needed to in the field he works in).  It was a 4 hour test, and it was a huge deal.

Offline Cato

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2009, 03:14:22 PM »
I dont trust ADVANCED science. It interferes with religion.
"Man, Proud Man,dressed in a little conceit, does such things as make the angels weep" - Shakespeare. As a lifetime plant breeder my constant irritation has been those of my colleagues who instantly think they understand everything. It's nothing necessarily to do with religion, it's just that our brain is not made that good. I fear that the USA's love affair with GM crops may be a case in point. a recent gene to jump species became the AIDS virus.

Offline SavetheWest

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2009, 07:04:40 AM »
Quote
Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/08/ending_a_histor.php

One thing that automatically stood out in the beginning of that article is that the founder of Eugenics had Charles Limbergh as a helper. I don't know if you knew that Limbergh was one of the biggest American anti-Semites of all time. 

I'm not saying ban the study of genetics, genetic history or its effects on behavoir. Quite the opposite, genentics should be studied and mapped out, in my opinion. Genetics and Darwins theories have stood the test of time but they need to be studied and examined much further.  Just like nuclear weaponry, it shouldn't be used by anyone for any purpose.  There is much we don't know and I don't like the idea of mapping out people's futures to justifying killing or sterilizing people who are considered undesirables.  MassudahGoodname made a very good point about Bushes expansion of powers as not becoming a threat by his presidency but by the next presidency.  When evil people control these sciences, that is never a good thing for anyone.  I've seen blacks talk about "defects by white people" where they are more likely to be serial killers or Nazis on Youtube say Jews are more likely to have mental problems using so called genetic theories.  We should never think these sciences could never be used against us for reasones we may not be able to consider or think of today.

Quote
IQ tests are nonsense.

If there are any folks on this list who have doubts about the validity and reliability of IQ tests, may I suggest an excellent primer on the subject which was written by a NYC Jew: A Question of Intelligence by Daniel Seligman. This, of course, is directed at those of you who might actually possess more intellectual curiosity than an interest in spouting opinions based on no knowledge.

Quote
I think these studies can be very dangerous.

First the Nazis had a book burning of all books written by Jews because their ideas were dangerous.

Then a saintly rabbi of blessed memory went to Israel. He told the truth and formed a political party but they banned it because they said that his ideas were too dangerous.

Then his number two tried to go to Israel to carry on his work, but the authorities refused to admit him because they said his ideas were too dangerous.

Now his followers want to ban other ideas because, you guessed it, they're too dangerous.

The hippies carried around signs which read, "ban the bomb."

So Bob Dylan made a sign which said, "ban the bums."

Me, I'm making a banner which reads, "ban the banners."





Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2009, 12:13:09 PM »
If scientific breakthroughs are interfering with your religious beliefs maybe you need to reevaluate something. Seriously science is not your enemy. Sometimes people use science for the wrong things or conduct experiments that should not be conducted, but we can handle those on a case-by-case basis. Science itself is an excellent tool to understand the world and should be embraced.

Offline Ulli

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2009, 03:26:50 PM »
If scientific breakthroughs are interfering with your religious beliefs maybe you need to reevaluate something. Seriously science is not your enemy. Sometimes people use science for the wrong things or conduct experiments that should not be conducted, but we can handle those on a case-by-case basis. Science itself is an excellent tool to understand the world and should be embraced.

Ruby, generally spoken I feel the opposite.

If science is interfering with my religious believes, I choose religion.  :)

Who knows if their theories are true. Every year, there are new ones.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2009, 03:57:38 PM »
Science is not for teaching absolute truth, it's for exploring the world around us. As we study more, we gain a better and better understanding of that world.

I think the religious intepretations people use can be wrong if they conflict with science in a major way.

Offline SavetheWest

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2009, 05:48:03 PM »
I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later.  For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times.  They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years.  Now that chart has been disproven. 

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2009, 06:21:57 PM »
   I disagree with this image. Minus organisms living in the human body, the human body is %100 genetic based. The instructions for all cells in the body come from the Chromatin in the nucleus of our cells.
   Inherited genetics is a different story. Chaim had mentioned that some of genetics are acquired from things like bad diets, drinking and smoking. Environmental factors are capable of modifying our genetics. Our cells are constantly dividing and making copies of our chromosomes. Like copying a cassette tape, these copies are never perfect. It is amazing though how well hashem has allowed this process to proceed on such a large scale with as few mistakes as there are. Still, the process is not perfect. Each time this happens, mutations are possible.
   I believe that limits on capacity for intelligence are inherited, however, what we make out of the cards that are dealt to us are affected by our actions.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2009, 08:34:16 PM »
I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later.  For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times.  They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years.  Now that chart has been disproven. 

There were several hominids that lived at the same time. Even when our more modern type of human was around there were different hominids living at the same time, like Erectus in Asia, Neanderthals in Europe and the Middle East, and I think a few others. It's the same as the Arctic fox, fennec fox, red fox and gray fox living at the same time on earth today. They're not the same as one another but they're related and spring from a common ancestor.


Take Back our temple, genetics are not acquired in the way you describe. Lamarck's ideas were disproven a long time ago. Some genetic potentials may or may not express themselves based on environmental conditions (for example someone may have a genetic tendency toward obesity, but if they never have enough nutrition to sustain a normal weight, they will never become obese). Someone might have a genetic tendency toward homosexuality, but they still have a personal choice on how they act on those tendencies.

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2009, 07:16:27 AM »
   Lamarck's ideas did not look at the molecular level. If you cut off a limb from a lab rat, the limb will be present in the rat's offspring no matter how many generations that you test. If a virus on the other hand implants it's DNA into your cells and your body does not reject them, that change in your DNA is permanent. Genetic poisons can also degrade DNA.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2009, 12:21:22 PM »
   Lamarck's ideas did not look at the molecular level. If you cut off a limb from a lab rat, the limb will be present in the rat's offspring no matter how many generations that you test. If a virus on the other hand implants it's DNA into your cells and your body does not reject them, that change in your DNA is permanent. Genetic poisons can also degrade DNA.

It's a good thing you brought up the retroviruses that make permanent DNA changes. One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.

Offline Daleksfearme

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2009, 06:42:42 PM »
Here is a very good link on this topic.


http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/atapuerca/africa/index.php
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Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2009, 09:36:08 PM »
   One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.

   We do have a common ancestor. It is Hashem. He created all of us.
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Offline SavetheWest

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2009, 01:52:51 AM »
I think it's important to see that key scientific principles that are taken as law have often been disporven years later.  For years we saw the chart of ape becoming man. The chart said that along the process of becoming human, the homo habilus and homo erectus (both pre human beings) lived at different times.  They recently found fossils that proved that they lived at the same time for many years.  Now that chart has been disproven. 

There were several hominids that lived at the same time. Even when our more modern type of human was around there were different hominids living at the same time, like Erectus in Asia, Neanderthals in Europe and the Middle East, and I think a few others. It's the same as the Arctic fox, fennec fox, red fox and gray fox living at the same time on earth today. They're not the same as one another but they're related and spring from a common ancestor.


Take Back our temple, genetics are not acquired in the way you describe. Lamarck's ideas were disproven a long time ago. Some genetic potentials may or may not express themselves based on environmental conditions (for example someone may have a genetic tendency toward obesity, but if they never have enough nutrition to sustain a normal weight, they will never become obese). Someone might have a genetic tendency toward homosexuality, but they still have a personal choice on how they act on those tendencies.


They still don't have the missing link (I know what some people are going to say  :laugh:) that shows the bridge between the hominids and if they interbreeded with Neanderthals or not.  We've been told so much that those hominids such as the erectus and habilus lived at different times within the same area and now they have to revisit that theory.  I'm sure everyone has seen that chart that we learned in school and it is not valid anymore as of just a couple years ago. 

Offline takebackourtemple

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2009, 07:42:09 AM »
   Everything in science is just a model anyway. The Bohr's model of the Atom is not what really happens. Even the electron cloud models are just models. Our current model of evolution does not have to be %100 correct to be of scientific use. We need to know that Hashem has created the laws of this universe and no matter how much we study science or torah, we are never going to have the knowledge that hashem has. By no means though does that mean we should not study science or investigate haluchic questions.
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Offline Daleksfearme

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2009, 12:51:24 PM »
   Everything in science is just a model anyway. The Bohr's model of the Atom is not what really happens. Even the electron cloud models are just models. Our current model of evolution does not have to be %100 correct to be of scientific use. We need to know that Hashem has created the laws of this universe and no matter how much we study science or torah, we are never going to have the knowledge that hashem has. By no means though does that mean we should not study science or investigate haluchic questions.

I really like your post. Science should not be treated as the enemy of faith. The two are able to go hand in hand. In genreal, people misunderstand the word "theory" when used for scientific models. A scientific theorem is a consistant set of facts in regard to a particular topic. Because our base of information will increase over time, some additions or modifications can be plugged into the theory without rendering the basic concept itself invalid.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2009, 03:20:14 PM »
   One of the strongest evidences for evolution is that Humans and Chimpanzees share at least 5 of these which could only have been true if there was a physical common ancestor.

   We do have a common ancestor. It is Hashem. He created all of us.

I've told people who believe in a literal 6 day creation that since G-d is the source of everything anyway that they shouldn't get so hung up on being related to other life. I believe that G-d created everything too. I just disagree with "creationists" on how and what methods G-d used to create everything.

Offline MikeyChua

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2009, 10:51:25 AM »


Eugenics was a key, if not main idealogy of the Nazi movement. 

The following is taken from a monograph written by Dr. Steven Farron, a Jewish South African professor who spoke at our Preserving Western Civilization conference in February:

The absurdity of attributing the Holocaust to eugenics and
Social Darwinism should be ... obvious. Nearly every eugenicist,
beginning with the introduction (pp.3-4) to the book
that began the eugenics movement and the study of genetic determinism,
Galton’s Hereditary Genius (1869), singled out Jews
as a (and often the) superior race. The Nazis agreed that Jews
are much more intelligent than Gentiles. Hitler said, “The Aryan
and the Jew...are as far apart as a beast and a man. Not that I
would call the Jew a beast. He is much further removed from the
beasts than we Aryans
” (Rauschning 1939, p.238; italics added).
As Jean-Paul Sartre observed in his classic study of anti-
Semitism, Réflexions sur la question juive (1954, p.26), “For
the anti-Semite intelligence is Jewish.” Because the Nazis and
their predecessors misunderstood the nature of capitalistic interactions,
they regarded intelligence not as the source of social
well-being but as a means to swindle, manipulate and ultimately
dominate. Statements like “the Jews again dupe the dumb Goyim
[Gentiles]” (Mein Kampf, p.325) abound in Hitler’s writings and
speeches.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 11:33:58 AM by MikeyChua »

Offline MikeyChua

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Re: Evidence That Intelligence Is Largely Inherited
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2009, 11:32:04 AM »
I think these studies can be very dangerous.  Do we really want to prove things about people based on their genetics?  It makes me uncomfortable and could be used by very evil people to kill many people for many different reasons.  No people are perfect and any group could find some flaw in another people to justify an extermination.  Just my opinion though. 

This great response to the "dangerous knowledge" argument is taken from Prof. J. Philippe Rushton's speech at our Preserving Western Civilizaton conference from last February:

Wanted: More Race Realism, Less Moralistic Fallacy

An enormous gulf separates the knowledge base of experts in the behavioral sciences and what the politically correct gatekeepers stop from
appearing in the mainstream media and policy discussions. The world’s population groups are obviously not interchangeable. Indeed, some group differences have proven so intractably that debates over potential remedial treatments have spanned generations. Long-standing group inequalities pose a problem in developing countries such as India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, and South Africa as well as the US (Klitgaard, 1986; Lynn, 2008; Sowell, 2004).

The “naturalistic fallacy,” identified by philosopher David Hume (1711–1776), occurs when reasoning jumps from statements about what is to prescription about what ought to be. An example of the naturalistic fallacy would be approving of all wars if scientific evidence showed warfare was part of human nature. The converse of the naturalistic fallacy is the “moralistic fallacy”—jumping from prescriptions about what ought to be to statements about what is. An example of the moralistic fallacy: claiming that, because warfare is wrong, it cannot be part of human nature.
The term “moralistic fallacy” was coined by Harvard University microbiologist Bernard Davis (1978) in response to demands for ethical guidelines to control the study of what could allegedly become “dangerous knowledge”…such as the genetic basis of IQ. For well over a generation, the study of the genetic and racial aspects of IQ has given rise to the best examples we have of the moralistic fallacy in action. Happily, under the sheer weight of evidence, there are now signs this anti-intellectual and unscientific prohibition is breaking down, at least in the academic world. Most of the opposition to the genetic hypothesis consists of mere moralizing and worse, the creation of a threatening and coercive atmosphere incompatible with academic freedom, free enquiry, and the civil liberties of a truly democratic society.
Despite repeated claims to the contrary, racial group differences are as large today as when first measured nearly 100 years ago. They, and the associated gaps in living standards, education levels etc., are rooted in factors that are largely heritable, not cultural. IQ differences are attributable more to differences in brain size than to social, economic, or political factors. There is little or no value in denying reality. Improving opportunities and removing arbitrary barriers is a worthy ethical goal. Equal opportunity is laudable. But we must realize that it will result in equitable, though unequal outcomes.

Jensen (2006) proposed “two laws of individual differences”—(1) individual differences in learning and performance increase as task complexity increases, and (2) individual differences in performance increase with practice and experience (unless there is a low ceiling on proficiency). Consequently, the more we remove environmental barriers and improve everybody’s intellectual performance, the greater will be the relative influence of genetic factors (because the environmental variance is being removed). However, this means that equal opportunity will result in unequal outcomes, within-families, between-families, and between population groups. The fact that we have learned to live with the first, and to a lesser degree the second, offers some hope we can learn to do so for the third.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 11:45:42 AM by MikeyChua »