Non-Jewish supporters?

[muman613]

I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.

Hey, there are lots of observant Jews who were born in Soviet Union, including myself

Ok, but it is not my experience... A good example is this: The other day while I was in the hallway talking with a friend about my Jewish appearance a Russian girl walked by and started talking to us. She was arguing against religion but she mentioned that her grandmother was Jewish. She was completely atheist and yet she may have been Jewish if she was her maternal grandmother... But I didn't ask because she quoted the soviet "Religion is the opiate of the masses" line to me and that religion was invented so man could have moral codes... I was trying to relate a story about a personal miracle but she was not impressed. I also worked with a Dimitry guy about eight years ago who was from Russia... He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s.... We missed so much of the pain my people experienced.

[Axel]

It is established that the way to determine the religion of the child is through the mother. Personal beliefs are fine but they don't always reveal the truth.

My argument is also that the established way of determining the religion of the child is also a personal belief. 1) Because it appears to be an oral law made to benefit Jews of another time and 2) I believe in a semitic race known as Jews.

[muman613]

It is established that the way to determine the religion of the child is through the mother. Personal beliefs are fine but they don't always reveal the truth.

My argument is also that the established way of determining the religion of the child is also a personal belief. 1) Because it appears to be an oral law made to benefit Jews of another time and 2) I believe in a semitic race known as Jews.

So you admit you are a racist?

This is not the definition of a Jew... We are not necessarily a semitic race. This is the Hitler theory and the Jewish people have never held like this.

I support the ability of a person to Convert. I know many righteous Jewish converts who are observing Torah as Orthodox members of my minyan. I recognize the conversions of my friends and some family members.

I do not believe that Torah was written for one particular time. That is also not a Jewish religious belief. Torah is written for all time, and is applicable in all times, and describes events which are happening right now. Your understanding seems so out of line with Jewish belief in Torah and our relationship with G-d.

I will be going to bed soon... It is 1AM here. I hope that things work out for you...

[Spectator]

So you are a.. racist

...Please explain this logic to me?

It's a joke. You judge who's Jewish by ethnicity, use blood-count ("Half-Jewish"), refer to race ("White father"). All these methods have nothing to do with Judaism.

But of course I don't mean you are a KKK-style racist.

[Axel]

He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s...

Yes this is true, my father who grew up as a Jew in the Ukraine was constantly attacked by gangs because of his Jewish ethnicity, he was a semi-practicing Jew btw, the type that wore no Kippas and went to church only during special occasions. He said how one day his teacher told the class that he was Jewish, since then he was always getting into fights.

Jews without a strong faith and empowerment therefore are VERY likely to become self-hating. Hating their ethnicity for attracting so much hate to them. It's natural.

[Axel]

It's a joke. You judge who's Jewish by ethnicity, use blood-count ("Half-Jewish"), refer to race ("White father"). All these methods have nothing to do with Judaism.

But of course I don't mean you are a KKK-style racist.

Hmm, well I believe that Jews are an ethnicity.

E.g, I believe an African that mixes with a European will have a half-Black half-European child, no matter if the African is the mother or the father.

I will admit tho, I don't strongly believe in race, think we are all related somewhat and think racism is silly. But having such a passive attitude would get us wiped out by actual racists.

[Spectator]

I don't expect a Jew from Russia to understand. I was just explaining this to a friend the other night about how I don't hold a Russian member of my synagogue to a high standard of religion because he grew up in Soviet Union. They were brutal to all religions and especially to the Jews.

Hey, there are lots of observant Jews who were born in Soviet Union, including myself

Ok, but it is not my experience... A good example is this: The other day while I was in the hallway talking with a friend about my Jewish appearance a Russian girl walked by and started talking to us. She was arguing against religion but she mentioned that her grandmother was Jewish. She was completely atheist and yet she may have been Jewish if she was her maternal grandmother... But I didn't ask because she quoted the soviet "Religion is the opiate of the masses" line to me and that religion was invented so man could have moral codes... I was trying to relate a story about a personal miracle but she was not impressed. I also worked with a Dimitry guy about eight years ago who was from Russia... He revealed to me that he was born Jewish but denied it throughout his life in Russia and he told me Jews were treated worse than blacks in America by the Russians. He told me he was embarassed to be Jewish and would not reveal it to others. It is these experiences I have with Russian Jews which disappoint me. I am glad my family left Ukraine in the early 1900s.... We missed so much of the pain my people experienced.

You are right, because of evil Communist oppression most Russian Jews are assimilated and brainwashed. But today there are lots of Jews who returned to the Creator in Israel. There were also heroic people who remained observant in Soviet Union, among them a prominent Rabbi Yitzchok Zilber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzchok_Zilber

[AsheDina]

Hi, nice to have you.

I am born a Jew by my mom, my mom's family are crypto-Marrano from Portugal. I was never really practicing until a few years back. My Dad is a WASP & Iroquois, so that is proof that people should marry themselves.

I am a little more open than most people regarding Judaism and Christianty-etc.  I've had NO choice in this world of Jew-hatred.

I am glad that you joined. Its not easy to put ones-self in our shoes, and when people support and join, it makes me happy, because NOBODY speaks for right-wing Jews- they certainly are NOT in office and do NOT represent US.

Glad that you are here, and I hope that you become closer to G-d, and see whats really happening in this place they now call America

[Rubystars]

I'm a non-denominational Christian. I live in Texas and I'm of German/Irish/Scottish/English descent.

[nopeaceforland]

100% Jewish!   I was raised in a Kahanist household.

[~Hanna~]

I am not Jewish, but I suspect I have ancestors that were..

[Dr. Dan]

Mitochondrial DNA is passed down by the mother. But that's niether here nor there. A chinese baby adopted into Jewish houshold who goes through a proper conversion is a Jew. Despite being genetically dissimal from her parents. Being and becoming a Jew is a spiritual thing. Part of the rule in the Torah is that the mother has to be Jewish. Agree or disagree. This is how it is. If you don't get it ask an orthodox rabbi to explain it better

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No, Hasidism goes back only about 300 years tops.

That's my point, it was a tradition invented by Jews not long ago. Does this then mean that a non-Hasidic Jew is not Jewish? no. The mother tradition just happens to be older and more ingrained.

This is nonsensical.   Jewish law is more than just "tradition."  There is no Jewish law or halacha that says "Thou must be a hasidic Jew."  And no one thinks that being a Jew is defined by being a hasid.  That is ludicrous.  Another thing you just made up.   But everyone DOES define being a Jew by having a Jewish mother.  Everyone always accepted this was Jewish law.   Until reform came along and said we want to expand our congregation membership base.

There is a halacha that Jewish descent goes through the mother.   That is Jewish law, not just tradition.   And it was not "invented" in the sense that hasidism was "invented."   You are really grasping for straws with these diversionary arguments.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You just made this up.  There are more than those 3 groups, but either way, that it is based on "one parent" is something you arbitrarily thought up.

Sure, there could be more. Can you name some of these groups? I mean, ethnicities that define a person as Jewish?

Well that's a misleading question.  The ETHNICITIES do not DEFINE the person as Jewish.  That again is your invention.   It is that they are descended matrilineally through the Tribes of Yaakov that defines the people as Jewish.   It just so happens that their ETHNICITIES, ie, race, are of certain types that are different from each other and still they are Jewish because of their matrilineal descent.  Imagine that.   That is just proof that race has nothing to do with it.  That is why you have Ashkenazi communities that look very different from Sephardic communities and yet both are fully Jewish.  Because facial characteristics and skin color have nothing to do with whether someone is Jewish or not.    And there are other "ethnic" groups that are Jews as well.  There are Romaniot Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ethiopian Jews and these all look completely distinct from the aforementioned groups.   You really display your ignorance on your sleeve here.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1. There can be no anti-semites, since Jews can be anything, not just Semites.

"Antisemites" is just a word that people came up with a few hundred years ago to describe Jew hatred.   It really never meant Arabs or other nonJewish middle eastern people, so I can see you have no point here.   It is not true that Jews are not semites because originally the Tribes of Yaakov were all Semitic and middle eastern.  So anyone who joins the nation, even if they themselves do not start off as "racially" semitic, they have attached themselves to a nation that ORIGINATED as semitic.   Get it now?   That means that a whole community can look white as snow or completely african dark black and yet they might be Jewish if they converted or if their descent is traced back over the centuries as a Jewish population with Jewish mothers and continuing line of Jewish women.

You really have some obsession with anti-semites and anachronisms.

If there are no antisemites that's a big blessing.   But unfortunately they are.  If you think the term describing them would be more accurate as "Jew hater" that's fine.  It's not a precise term and it's not one I made up.   It's just become a common term that everyone is familiar with because it was used to describe a certain phenomenon that was found rampant in society at the time.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What about it? I'm against a woman betraying her lover, just because of his slightly murky past.

It's obvious that you are a troll. I think you are most likely a WN, what with your obsession with Jews being a "race" and your defense of a wanted Klansman who was hiding out in Israel. Give us all a break. We may be "subhumans" in your eyes but we're not stupid.

Just for the record--I actually agree with you that the woman in question is a piece of filth (to put out for this American illegal-immigrant sleazeball she just met), but the idea that you would have any sympathy whatsoever in your heart for a Nazi butcher simply merits no words. I hope that both he and his Israeli leftist shackjob slut get osteosarcoma soon.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is determined by the mother or conversion.  Nothing else.

This might be religion, I'm talking about race. If a person is born of a Jewish father, they can still be considered part-Jewish, because "Jewish" is a race. Albeit a varied race, so you can get technical and reffer to them as Ashkenazis or watever.

Yes, you are talking about race.  But no, "Jewish" is not a race.   You only want it to be.  Sorry.

Tradition does not define DNA. 

 Who said it does?   DNA is just not relevant to the discussion of whether someone is a Jew or not.   We have specific guidelines for joining our nation or being a member.   Meet the criteria or find something else.   It's not personal, bud.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And LISTEN everyone who is reading this. I am of the belief that only a Jewish mother can produce Jewish children. It is not genetic in any sense.

It is difficult for me to have this belief, it is not as easy as everyone thinks. I have to personally disown my own brothers children, who survived him after his death on 9/11. It is sad for me, so hard to believe... But this is the fact in this world. I do not believe this life is meant to be easy. Everyone makes mistakes in his or her life, but I cannot accept my brothers children as Jewish. My brother married a non-Jew and therefore both of his kids are not Jews. In the eight years since his death I have never met these children. My deep wish is that some day they will seek me in order to learn of their fathers childhood faith. My mother, their grandma, has tried to instill some Jewish identity in them... But I have told her that they would need to convert in order to be recognized as a Jew.

I am not making the rules. I am just living them.

Hey bro, that's a tough thing to go through.  You probably didn't mean the word "disown."  You obviously don't really have to disown them (or am I wrong?), you can just love them as gentiles that they are.  But I'm sure that's what you meant.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I agree with KWRBT, I don't see why disowning them is necessary.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm against people with Jewish fathers feeling left out because of this tradition which says only through the mother. Sure they can convert, but they would always see themselves as converts and not relatives of Abraham.

I think that your problem is that you somehow think this is a blemish on a person for not being born Jewish.  It simply isn't.   Neither is being a convert.  In fact, quite the opposite.  Judaism holds the convert in high esteem, sometimes higher than the born-Jew.   I know it can be hard for someone to realize if they are in the situation and somehow imagine themselves to be Jewish when they aren't, but the fact is that there is nothing wrong with being a gentile, if they are in fact a gentile!  You should not denigrate that or gentiles in general.   And I think if a person has such feelings as yours, they are not ready to convert because they need to learn to respect gentiles first and not have a superiority complex about them when they become Jewish.  

If the person wants to join up, let him convert.  There's nothing "left out" about it.   If a person converts, it is something to be proud of.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Someone who happens to have a White mother and a Semitic Jewish father, is therefore half-Jewish, something Orthodox Jews don't believe in.

But that doesn't make any sense.  It is about the national origin.  Originally, we were a semitic people.   Many "semitics" today as you call them, ie women, men descended from Avraham, can look completely white or completely African or completely something else not Semitic.  There is no sense in using modern day racial and anthropological terms to define a nation that has never defined itself as such.   To say it's a "white mother" and "semitic Jewish father" is nonsensical.   If the father is middle Eastern looking, that does not make him Jewish.  The Arabs are descended from Avraham's son Ishmael.   They are not Jewish.  No one has ever claimed that all descendents of Avraham are Jewish.... Until you did.  You're the first person in Jewish history to claim it.

And if the mother is "white" that does not make her non-Jewish.  Since large groups of Jews ended up in Western and Eastern Europe, a whole slew of our population looks similar to Europeans today.   That does not mean they are not Jewish.  Ashkenazi Jews are Jewish.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Kahane Was Right, I think you are wasting your time with this [censored]. He is probably a Stormfronter.

[Zelhar]

Axel is actually referring to a whole different group than the Jewish nation. You define a group that is determined by DNA. Maybe you can elaborate further about your rules ? I mean does a practicing Christian with a Jewish father counts as a member ? Do you accept a convert to Judaism as a member ? Must any candidate go through a formal DNA test in an official lab to validate his claim ?

Anyway, while technically there is an overlap between Axel's group and the Jews, one is a mere classification of origin, the other is a religionation.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The issue is that there is something special about marrying within your own people. The Torah which has kept the Jewish people a people for 1000s of years has told us men to only marry Jewish women. This is because we then can have Jewish children. If there is no difference then why should we keep within our faith? As I have quoted several times, our L-rd has commanded us to remain loyal to him and 'not turn astray'.

I can understand that, but at the same time why cannot a Jewish man have a child with a Gentile woman and still have a child sypmathetic to his Jewish roots?

He can be plenty sympathetic to his Jewish roots, but that does not make him Jewish .   This is what I had said before.   A person can feel they are Jewish all they want, but that does not make the person Jewish.  They can be a righteous gentile and even help Israel or even go there, but that does not make them Jewish.

Sounds like nothing more than a way to keep the Jewish blood flowing, by encouraging Jewish men to marry Jewish women. Not a bad thing, but makes no difference if it's a father or mother.

You have creative theories, but if that were so, it wouldn't have singled out the Jewish mother.   Yet, it did.

It has been shown that Jews brought up in mixed-religion marriages often do not carry on the religion, leading to total assimiliation within 2 generations. The Jewish nation has the vision of the future where all Jews will gather in Israel and witness the coming of the Moshiach.

Which brings me back to the point, why would a Jewish mother and a Christian father make any difference if it was the other way around?  

Because what Muman was saying here isn't exactly on point.  It is not merely a question of "will the kid identify" or "will the kid carry on the religion."   It's an existential question.  Is the kid JEWISH to begin with?   And that is determined by the mother.    Then once that is out of the way, you can ask the question, with a gentile father, will the kid really carry on the Jewish tradition.    And the answer to that question is very obvious, and exactly why intermarriage is forbidden, even for a women.  It just so happens that the child she has through intermarriage is still Jewish.   Not a guarantee that he will be religious or identify as such.  The soul of the child is Jewish, and that is passed through the mother.   Nothing to do with dna or genetics, and nothing to do with how he'll end up.  

I really don't like the idea of Jews looking down on other Jews. This was common between German Jews and Eastern European Jews once, you know, before the holocaust. If we worked together we would be better off.

I agree with you here.   Even in the US, when immigrants were first coming in, the German Jews had a superiority complex over the Eastern European masses of Russian Jews who came after them.   I agree with you that this type of division is poisonous.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm explaining some reasons why this tradition came to exist. And why we can change it with newer understanding and knowledge.

You're basically arguing that being Jewish is not an ethnicity, that anyone can be a Jew as long as they either convert or have a mother who identifies as a Jew.

But then-

2. Jews don't have a claim to Israel, since there's no proof that they are even related to the original tribe. One can argue that Israel simply belongs to people who practice Judaism, but that's would debunk the argument that the land once belonged to Israeli-Jews some thousand years ago. 

This is not true that there would be no claim to Israel.   We are the same people who the Romans threw out, and the same people who have been praying to return for 2000 years.   This actually reflects the weakness in your racial theories of Jewish continuation.   Because only through the Jewish religion does anyone have any clue that they are descended from Jews.   If a Jew became completely secular or married out, and did not keep some kind of tradition    (Marranos did keep tradition of being Jews btw), that the family was Jewish, they were lost to the Jewish people forever.   And perhaps some of their descendents are technically Jewish with a Jewish mother, but they become diluted out if they a. don't know and b.  don't practice.

Your dad being observant in Soviet Union was a continuation of prior generations of the Jewish people.  That is how you know because he was raised as a Jew and lived as one.   If people don't, they never passed on any connection no matter what they look like or what they feel like.

3. Debunks the fact that Jews are a seperate ethnicity to gentiles.

 
Yes exactly.  That is why racists are so wrong to attack Jews.   We are not a separate "ethnicity."  Gentiles also can perhaps be descended from Avraham and even have middle eastern facial features and skin tones.   So what?   Jewish nation is defined by something else and they were wrong on many levels for racially hating us.  Because we weren't really a "race."  We originally were Semitic but we moved around all over the place and intermingled... That is the whole point.  It is the Jewish religion that kept us as a nation distinct from others.    Not race.

 

So the fact that we have Goldbergs, Brodskys and Steinbergs with similar facial features, happening to be Jews, is a pure coincidence.

   
Right because the Goldbergs look so much like Yemenite Jews and Ethiopians right.

BTW another group I forgot to mention was Indian Jews.  There were certain small populations of Jewish people in India that traced their ancestry back to at least Second Temple period.  And guess what?   They and their descendents look like Indians!

4. People with a Jewish father are "goy".

As I said before, you should not denigrate goyim.   Neither should any Jews denigrate them.  Judaism does NOT teach us to do that.   There is nothing wrong with being born a goy.   That is the way G-d made a person, so be it.  They can be righteous like any person can be.

5. Debunks the fact that people with Ashkenazi parents can benefit from the Ashkenazi intelligence. Albeit can sound supremacist, it's been proven time and time again. 

I don't believe in eugenics.  I have seen some of the supposed "evidence" and I don't buy it.

Yes, many Jews have won nobel prizes.  Jews are smart.   Part of that is genetics but a big part of it is upbringing.  People who are raised to be competitive, intellectually developed, and given a quality education can achieve such things.   

 

Most child prodigies are Ashkenazi, the group with the highest IQ in Israel are Eastern European Ashkenazis, who also hold most power,

Part of this is because when the Sefaradim came, the Ashkenazi majority that was already in power before they arrived, made sure that 1. Sefaradim would not get proper education, 2. Sefaradim would not gain political ascendancy or any power over the elite already running the show, 3. they tried to create a criminal underclass out of Sefaradim.  Among other reasons.   You clearly do not understand the persecution that Sefaradim went through when they arrived in Israel.   Ben Gurion and his minions were behind these disgusting efforts.

If you want to shatter my definition of a Jew, you must seperate Ashkenazis from Jews, Sephardis from Jews and Mizrahi of Jews whom btw, all share a similar genetic trait linked back to ancient Israel (one of my arguments supporting Jewish owndership of Israel).

Why would I need to do that?   Even by my definition, the Torah's definition of who is a Jew, there would be common ancestry involved.   But those genetic studies are very flimsy if you know anything about genetics.   I don't put too much stock into it.   You can have genetic linkage between many variant groups of people because ultimately all humans are connected by DNA and genetics.   What's the big deal about that?

When the zionist movement emerged, it wasn't based on complicated dna testing and scientific studies.   We were justified then, and we are justified now.