Poll: How religious/observant are you?

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

practising atheist

[takebackourtemple]

How interesting that Chaim, the leader, is in the small minority on this website.  I think it is a good thing that secular and religious people can work together with mutual respect.

   While religious tolerance exists, the goal is for us all to become religious eventually. There is a difference between forcing religion on someone and encouraging it. The latter leaves room for free choice. There was once a rav who greatly respected the Rebbe but was not Hassidic and did not have a beard. Someone went to the Rebbe to have the Rebbe ask the Rav to grow a beard. The Rebbe refused the request. The Rebbes reason was that it would be the Rebbes beard and not the Rav's.

[Moijea]

Are there any observant Jews here who wouldn't mind sharing Shabbat with non-Jews?  Oops, I live in WA state.

[muman613]

Are there any observant Jews here who wouldn't mind sharing Shabbat with non-Jews?  Oops, I live in WA state.

Unless you intend on converting it is not allowed for a non-Jew to have Shabbat...

http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5757/noach57.html

Furthermore, the Gemara rules that it is a capital crime for a non-Jew to observe the Shabbos. For this reason, candidates for conversion to Judaism, who are taught the  mitzvos and begin to observe them, are nevertheless careful to turn on a light on Shabbos or to violate the Shabbos in some other way until they are actually converted.

I do not intend to be rude... You may be able to learn something by attending a Friday night service at a reform synagogue.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Are there any observant Jews here who wouldn't mind sharing Shabbat with non-Jews?  Oops, I live in WA state.

Unless you intend on converting it is not allowed for a non-Jew to have Shabbat...

http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5757/noach57.html

Furthermore, the Gemara rules that it is a capital crime for a non-Jew to observe the Shabbos. For this reason, candidates for conversion to Judaism, who are taught the  mitzvos and begin to observe them, are nevertheless careful to turn on a light on Shabbos or to violate the Shabbos in some other way until they are actually converted.

I do not intend to be rude... You may be able to learn something by attending a Friday night service at a reform synagogue.

But Muman, they can SHARE a Shabbat together.   The prohibition is against the non-Jew KEEPING Shabbat.   Meaning, as long as the non-Jew does some kind of melacha over the course of the Shabbat, s/he can certainly spend time with a Jewish family that is observing it.    In fact, the non Jewish person can drive to their house to join them for a meal.

And I don't see why (lehathila) ANYONE (Jew or non Jew) should go to a reform so-called synagogue.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Furthermore, the Gemara rules that it is a capital crime for a non-Jew to observe the Shabbos. For this reason, candidates for conversion to Judaism, who are taught the  mitzvos and begin to observe them, are nevertheless careful to turn on a light on Shabbos or to violate the Shabbos in some other way until they are actually converted.

Wow, I did not know that. There are Christians who strictly observe the Sabbath (on Sunday), and even some who do on Saturday (i.e. Seventh-Day Adventists). Are they eligible for the death penalty?

[muman613]

Furthermore, the Gemara rules that it is a capital crime for a non-Jew to observe the Shabbos. For this reason, candidates for conversion to Judaism, who are taught the  mitzvos and begin to observe them, are nevertheless careful to turn on a light on Shabbos or to violate the Shabbos in some other way until they are actually converted.

Wow, I did not know that. There are Christians who strictly observe the Sabbath (on Sunday), and even some who do on Saturday (i.e. Seventh-Day Adventists). Are they eligible for the death penalty?

The Sabbath was given to the Jews as a gift. According to Jewish law a Jew is not supposed to share Shabbat with a non-Jew. Also it is odd that they would observe the 'Shabbat' on Sunday when it is known when the seventh day is {Saturday}. Why would anyone change this day. Anyone can do whatever they want and call it Shabbat but that doesn't mean a thing. The laws of Shabbat are clear, and it is clear that Shabbat is a gift from Hashem to the Jewish people.

I don't think that these Christians are really doing something good. If they are so concerned about the Torah they should convert and observe the Sabbath correctly. I am not making this up, this is Jewish law...

http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/sh/dt.57.2.09.html

In addition, the selection in the Ten Statements would seem to imply that Shabbat should ideally be observed by all of humanity, as G-d created us all and we should all testify to that fact. Yet, in our Parashah, Shabbat is clearly presented as a uniquely Israelite practice, one which does not "belong" to other nations. (Indeed, the Rabbis stated that a non-Jew should not observe Shabbat - see BT Sanhedrin 58b, MT M'lakhim 10:9). Besides this "nationalistic shift", several new terms are introduced in our Parashah:

http://www.bircas.org/parshasheet/archive/Behar 2008.html

The Talmud teaches us that a non-Jew who attempts to observe the Shabbos is liable the death penalty for doing the same thing that a Jew is in fact commanded to do. This is perhaps because Shabbos is a statement of one’s complete detachment from the laws of nature and one’s firm belief that those laws are only a direct result of the Creator’s involvement. A non-Jew, who is perhaps incapable of grasping this principle, has no business taking a day off from work. But a Jew who lives with this reality at all times, is required to take one day a week to demonstrate his belief in G-d and if he is lax in this belief, he too is liable to be killed.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The issue of why most Christians observe Sabbath on Sunday rather than Saturday is a big and complicated one that would probably not be appropriate for this forum, but like I said, there are some who do observe it on Saturday. I will grant you that Christian Sabbaths are nowhere near as strict as Jewish Shabbats (albeit a few do observe it very strictly), but still, we are talking about something that is held by around a billion people.

I personally don't observe the Sabbath on either Saturday or Sunday beyond going to church, but it would probably be a good idea for my walk with G-d if I made some effort to.

[muman613]

The issue of why most Christians observe Sabbath on Sunday rather than Saturday is a big and complicated one that would probably not be appropriate for this forum, but like I said, there are some who do observe it on Saturday. I will grant you that Christian Sabbaths are nowhere near as strict as Jewish Shabbats (albeit a few do observe it very strictly), but still, we are talking about something that is held by around a billion people.

I personally don't observe the Sabbath on either Saturday or Sunday beyond going to church, but it would probably be a good idea for my walk with G-d if I made some effort to.

As a Jew I can say that a day of complete rest is absolutely divine. We detach ourselves from this physical world by abstaining from using computers, phones, tv's, automobiles and appliances. There is something gained in this physical world, and certainly something gained in the world to come...

I am one who wishes that we all can have Shabbat peace, the whole world, some day...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

As a Jew I can say that a day of complete rest is absolutely divine. We detach ourselves from this physical world by abstaining from using computers, phones, tv's, automobiles and appliances. There is something gained in this physical world, and certainly something gained in the world to come...

There are definitely not many Christians, no matter how devout, who obstain from all that. Still, why would it be wrong for us to as a matter of choice?

[muman613]

As a Jew I can say that a day of complete rest is absolutely divine. We detach ourselves from this physical world by abstaining from using computers, phones, tv's, automobiles and appliances. There is something gained in this physical world, and certainly something gained in the world to come...

There are definitely not many Christians, no matter how devout, who obstain from all that. Still, why would it be wrong for us to as a matter of choice?

I don't have the answer to that question at this time. I am just reciting the Halacha about this. Actually I have a good book on Halacha and will review that section {I recall seeing this issue discussed there}. I also know that Jews who are converting are forced to do one Melacha {forbidden labor} on Shabbat so that they should not recieve this judgement.

From what you are saying it sounds like these Christians are not liable for the death penalty since they do not abstain from forbidden labor.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What do you mean by the death penalty--do you mean that Gentiles who try to observe Shabbat will go to hell, that Jews will execute them, or that G-d will strike them for doing so?

[muman613]

What do you mean by the death penalty--do you mean that Gentiles who try to observe Shabbat will go to hell, that Jews will execute them, or that G-d will strike them for doing so?

I doubt that this 'penalty' has ever been administered for this. There are many punishments which Torah discusses which our sages explain have never, or seldom been administered. This includes the 'Rebellious Son' who is supposed to be executed because he rebelled against his parents.

In this case I am not sure who was to carry out the punishment. There are some death penalties which Hashem himself mets out and there are some which the Jewish court mets out. I do not know who, in this case, is the one who executes judgement.

As I said, I don't consider this law applicable today. I also must admit that I am involved in a liberal synagogue which does outreach to non-Jews and obviously some of them have attended 'Shabbat' services. But I am just relating the Halacha so that those who are more observant can prevent themselves from making a mistake.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What do you mean "liberal synagogue" that does outreach to Gentiles? Like your shul tries to evangelize Gentiles to Judaism? If that is what you mean, wouldn't that make your shul a conservative or "fundamentalist" one? Or have I misunderstood you?

[muman613]

What do you mean "liberal synagogue" that does outreach to Gentiles? Like your shul tries to evangelize Gentiles to Judaism? If that is what you mean, wouldn't that make your shul a conservative or "fundamentalist" one? Or have I misunderstood you?

No, they are not trying to convert people.. But people from all walks of life are attracted to the synagogue. Many have intermarried and are trying to keep their faith. They don't evangelize. This shul is 'non-denominational' which means it is even more liberal than Reform {it has no known belief system other than what the rabbi feels}. I don't get along with that Rabbi yet I still give money to this synagogue because it was there when I needed it.

I don't attend this synagogue {except maybe on Channuka or an occasional Shabbat} because its political and religious bent is way to lenient and leftist. My Orthodox minyan is more in line with my beliefs, and most of my political beliefs.

I don't think the liberal synagogue is attempting to convert people.. It is just that sometimes people are attracted to Judaism and seek it out in these kinds of synagogues.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK, I get it now.

There are many churches like you describe, albeit they do have evangelism as a goal (though it's not forced). Also, they are not at all necessarily left-wing. Some "outreach" churches are extremely conservative and orthodox.

[~Hanna~]

It depends on what you mean by religious....

At various times in my life, I have been more religious than not...Ive been so religious it took up every aspect of my time...now, I keep it more in my heart, than anything else. Due to finding so many hypocrites at "church" nowadays, I've kind of gotten tired of going there...they treat it more as a country club, than anything, which I dont like. It's not supposed to be all about what kind of car you drive, your house, job or any of that. But it seems like that is what it has become. Just my 2 cents on the subject. I like to read and study the bible. I like to discuss theology, I can do those things without attending.
Ive just ran across so much hypocrisy its not even funny. I want someone to accept me because of me, not from what I can give to their church, or do for their church. I dunno. I'm just really sick of the church politics any more. I have had alot of "chrisitians" look down at me being alone now and raising my child alone, Im tired of being judged when they know nothing about me...I have people tell me all the time I need to find a church, but show me a church that truly loves the people, they are few and far between. Sorry, but that's how I feel today.

[GoIsraelGo!]

It depends on what you mean by religious....

At various times in my life, I have been more religious than not...Ive been so religious it took up every aspect of my time...now, I keep it more in my heart, than anything else. Due to finding so many hypocrites at "church" nowadays, I've kind of gotten tired of going there...they treat it more as a country club, than anything, which I dont like. It's not supposed to be all about what kind of car you drive, your house, job or any of that. But it seems like that is what it has become. Just my 2 cents on the subject. I like to read and study the bible. I like to discuss theology, I can do those things without attending.
Ive just ran across so much hypocrisy its not even funny. I want someone to accept me because of me, not from what I can give to their church, or do for their church. I dunno. I'm just really sick of the church politics any more. I have had alot of "chrisitians" look down at me being alone now and raising my child alone, Im tired of being judged when they know nothing about me...I have people tell me all the time I need to find a church, but show me a church that truly loves the people, they are few and far between. Sorry, but that's how I feel today.

Hanna, you love G-d and you do the very best you can. The most important thing you have is your love for G-d, and G-d knows this and will love you and protect you in return. As long as you put G-d in your heart first and forever, you cannot go wrong. Hashem will help you find your way!


                                                      Shalom & may G-d Bless you

                                                                  Dox

[Manch]

How interesting that Chaim, the leader, is in the small minority on this website.  I think it is a good thing that secular and religious people can work together with mutual respect.

I suspect that rabbi Kahane, ZT"L HY"D, was in similar situation!

[Zelhar]

@ Bonesfan: The issue of a gentile observing the sabbat gets the ax is only relevant in Israel when there is a functioning Sanhedrin. Mostly this is a theoretical matter, and the few actual cases where this ruling might have applied is of gentiles in antiquity times who lived in Israel and adopted Jewish customs but  refused to convert properly and in case an execution was carried, then there must have been a warning before and the person executing in defiance of the warning insisted on "observing" shabat in front of eye witnesses. 

From what I know, when it comes to gentiles who want to try and observe shabat because they want to convert, the advise is that they wear a tzizit. Then case they are not fully observing shabat because they carry something that is not really part of their clothes, but a Jew wearing tzizit is not violating shabat because he is commanded to wear the tzizit.

[~Hanna~]

Thankyou Elizabeth, I think you understand my heart on the matter.

A popular Christian singer once said "going to church doesn't make you a CHristian, any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger and I think he was right"

It depends on what you mean by religious....

At various times in my life, I have been more religious than not...Ive been so religious it took up every aspect of my time...now, I keep it more in my heart, than anything else. Due to finding so many hypocrites at "church" nowadays, I've kind of gotten tired of going there...they treat it more as a country club, than anything, which I dont like. It's not supposed to be all about what kind of car you drive, your house, job or any of that. But it seems like that is what it has become. Just my 2 cents on the subject. I like to read and study the bible. I like to discuss theology, I can do those things without attending.
Ive just ran across so much hypocrisy its not even funny. I want someone to accept me because of me, not from what I can give to their church, or do for their church. I dunno. I'm just really sick of the church politics any more. I have had alot of "chrisitians" look down at me being alone now and raising my child alone, Im tired of being judged when they know nothing about me...I have people tell me all the time I need to find a church, but show me a church that truly loves the people, they are few and far between. Sorry, but that's how I feel today.

Hanna, you love G-d and you do the very best you can. The most important thing you have is your love for G-d, and G-d knows this and will love you and protect you in return. As long as you put G-d in your heart first and forever, you cannot go wrong. Hashem will help you find your way!


                                                      Shalom & may G-d Bless you

                                                                  Dox

[Saxon Marauder]

Not a member of any particular religion, but I read the Bible, Greek philosophers and Germanic/Nordic sagas with equal enjoyment. Gd is Gd, whom I adore, honor respect immensely, but I can't (and won't) put into any religious denomination.

[Moijea]

But Muman, they can SHARE a Shabbat together. 

Perhaps my wording was not appropriate, I believe that this is what I meant to say.

Thank you Kahane.

[muman613]

But Muman, they can SHARE a Shabbat together. 

Perhaps my wording was not appropriate, I believe that this is what I meant to say.

Thank you Kahane.

I hope that I was not rude about this. I hope that you will learn how we enjoy Shabbat morning davening and afternoon meals. The Torah service is always incredible, IMO...