Author Topic: Why do Christians care about Jews?  (Read 17958 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2009, 08:07:55 PM »
AH seems to have glup on the mind...

 :::D

Jako smiješno krava

Very funny cows? Who are you calling a cow?

http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#sr|en|Jako smiješno krava

מְשׁוּגָע תַחַת

Probably me...I've put on a few pounds.  :::D
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2009, 08:10:45 PM »
I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.

I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.

The reason I wouldn't join any forum not based on Judaism is because that's anti-religious. What would be my motive for joining one? And no, I didn't think people would misunderstand to the point of insanity. If I were hypothetically a member of a Christian Zionist movement, wouldn't somebody ask me how I can contribute to the movement if I were an Orthodox Jew? The goal of JTF members is the same in the sense we are all anti-islam and pro-Israel, but I just wanted to know Christian reasons for supporting a Jewish movement with that ULTIMATE goal in mind.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2009, 08:14:10 PM »
Quote
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.

We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.

Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.

Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person  needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ.  :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None

So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that.  It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism.  What's wrong with that? 
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person  needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ.  Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"

Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
CJD is right.  It is one thing to learn about another religion.  It's another to be bothered by those religious beliefs to the point where it interferes with your own faith.


Chas V'shalom. But based on that answer above (about Jews shouldn't concerning themselves with Christianity etc.) I asked if we could learn about religions. The answer I was given was yes, but according to the statement I quoted, it doesn't include permission to do so for educational purposes.

Offline voo-yo

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 425
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2009, 08:19:53 PM »
The Jewish people are NEVER going to find a better friend than people like born-again believers, strong and devout Catholics, and people that love the G-D OF ISRAEL.

True that 'in the name of Christianity' atrocities have been committed, but please... Jewish people that are Erav-Rav have *NOT* hurt good G-d fearing Christians??? GIMME A BREAK!
Bolshevik Jews in this administration have TORN APART CHRISTIANS, so NOBODY is damned innocent!

This thread is SICKENING me now, beyond BELIEF.

Never mind all of the "Christianity"

I will know this:
In the N.T., Jesus was a Jew, he read from Torah, he was born in Israel, he was murdered in Israel, and all of my Jewish teachers that I know say, FLAT OUT:

 "We don't believe that Jesus is/was the Messiah, but HE WAS ONE OF US"



So, can we stop? OBVIOUSLY the Christian people love a good Jewish teacher. That's all.



Can I ask a question about Jesus?
I don't have a problem if you ask, but are these kind of discussions even allowed here?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2009, 08:21:27 PM »
I was not offended by your OP, Mo, but a couple responses within this thread were not called for.

Offline Boyana

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2009, 08:29:48 PM »
I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.

I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.

Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?


Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8985
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2009, 08:37:39 PM »
Quote
This is a matter of disagreement, Muman. We do not believe at all that Christian theology contradicts Torah (i.e. we say that Jesus is Hashem) and we certainly don't believe Torah is obsolete.

We don't need to go over our differences each and every time.

Most Christians don't know this and many of them don't even know what Tanakh or Mitzvah means. The world would be a better place if more Christians accepted that they are a Judeocentric faith.

Most Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. What do the Christians think about our Jewish members here. Do you think that righteous Jews will go to Heaven even if they reject Jesus as a prophet and reject the idea of the trinity?
Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person  needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ.  :read: Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None

So I'm not allowed to even ASK about Christianity? So a Jew can't even take a religions course? I don't understand what's wrong with learning more about the world.
Nothing wrong with that.  It's just like the Christians on the forum, most want to learn all they can about Judaism.  What's wrong with that? 
"Why in the world should any righteous Jew be concerned about Jesus as a prophet or the idea of the trinity. Both are non issues as far as Jewish theology is concerned and well they should be. A Jewish person  needs to be a righteous Jew and follow the Torah to get to Heaven and the last time I read it it did not include any Trinity or Jesus Christ.  Read Nope... No Jesus or Holy Trinity.....None"

Who said that?
I did you have a problem with it?
CJD is right.  It is one thing to learn about another religion.  It's another to be bothered by those religious beliefs to the point where it interferes with your own faith.


Chas V'shalom. But based on that answer above (about Jews shouldn't concerning themselves with Christianity etc.) I asked if we could learn about religions. The answer I was given was yes, but according to the statement I quoted, it doesn't include permission to do so for educational purposes.
No I never said that. Learning is fine but the student needs to be able to deal with the lesson.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8985
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2009, 08:57:25 PM »
<snip>
Can I ask a question about Jesus?

At this point I think this discussion should go private instead of dragging on and possibly hurting some members feelings...

We have agreed to minimize the religious content and concentrate on the issues which confront all righteous JTF members...



My question isn't like that. It's purely an educational one. Besides, I want to see how many different answers I get. But if you insist....
I think RanterMaximus has a good idea... I believe I already know what Chaims response will be... But maybe it should be expressed again.

I just think it is best to keep these questions at bay for now... Many peoples emotions are on edge and it is very possible that we will say something which may be misinterpreted...

It was acceptable response the first time around but I don't think he intended it to be a thing to hide behind.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2009, 08:58:12 PM »
I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.

I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.

Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?



I would do whatever the Halacha tells me to do in that situation. If Halacha says I have to, then I would. If it says not to, then I wouldn't.

Offline eb22

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4209
  • No Appeasement.or Concessions.Fakestine is a Hoax.
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2009, 08:58:24 PM »
A major part of the success of the Jewish Defense League under the leadership of Rabbi Meir Kahane and Chaim is that Jews and Righteous Gentiles worked together.      The end result is more than 1 million Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union.

The foundation of JTF is the principles of the late and great Rabbi and Chaim from their JDL days.      All of us can make this a better world by working with  each other and respecting each other.       My take is that it's both a responsibility and a privilege for Jews and Righteous Gentiles to try to help each other.      In my opinion,    our combined efforts should be on defeating liberalism and Islam,    not questioning the motives of people who are putting time and effort to help save the United States,   Israel,   and Western Civilization.          
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:06:32 PM by eb22 »
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8985
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2009, 09:02:51 PM »
I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.

I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.

Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?



I would do whatever the Halacha tells me to do in that situation. If Halacha says I have to, then I would. If it says not to, then I wouldn't.
Isn't Halacha written in stone there should be a firm answer.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2009, 09:03:31 PM »
I think Mo unintentionally offended the Christian members of the forum.

I just have a big problem with this sentence: “I wouldn't, in a million years, join ANY movement that wasn't based on Judaism”. But in all fairness, I understand his concern. At the same time, I’m sure you were aware of the kind of response you would get if you started a thread such as this.

Question for Mu and Muman?
Would you risk your life to free Christinas from a concetration camps like they did during World War2 for Jews.
Would you join movement that was not based on Judaisam,to save life of Italian?



Shalom Boyana,

In general I would do whatever I can do to help any people who are righteous {in the eyes of our Torah} from suffering.

For example I have contributed to organizations which help the hungry, of all religions, all around the world. But I also dedicate a certain amount of my charity to exclusively Jewish organizations...

Jewish belief mandates that we look at all of humanity as part of Hashems creation and as a result a manifestation of his awesome kindness.

But a Jew must not learn the ways of the nations... Once this happens assimilation is the next logical step and this has been demonstrated generation after generation...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18268
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2009, 09:04:04 PM »
If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.

Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2009, 09:06:19 PM »
If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.

Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.

All I said was that if I was permitted to do it, I would. Why would I think non-Jews are animals?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2009, 09:06:27 PM »
<snip>
Isn't Halacha written in stone there should be a firm answer.

Actually Halacha is not clear on this issue...

Some poskin that we should save the life of a non-Jew on Shabbat while others decide otherwise...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2009, 09:07:55 PM »
If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.

Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.

Yeah, Im such a bad Jew... RS....

I have never said anything other than wishing ann coulter a stay in gehinnom for her insult to Judaism... And you consider me your enemy?

Unbelievable...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Americanhero1

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 7617
  • I ain't going anywhere
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2009, 09:10:53 PM »
This thread is leading nowhere
Just lock it

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2009, 09:11:49 PM »
This thread is leading nowhere
Just lock it
Smart thinking
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2009, 09:11:58 PM »
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/modern/03modern.htm

MODERN RABBINIC THOUGHT
Shiur #03: R. Lipshutz's Attitude towards Non-Jews
By Rav Yitzchak Blau


While the Torah's ritual law applies mostly in an exclusively Jewish context, ethical obligations bear a more universal quality.  Pirkei Avot, a tractate dedicated primarily to ethical responsibilities, thus may address the gentile world as well; ethical maxims in Avot might provide guidance for non–Jews along with Jews.  Additionally, the ethical demands made upon Jews can also apply to their social interaction with gentiles.  No rabbinic commentator developed this theme as extensively as R. Lipschutz.

Some background will provide a linguistic frame of reference for R. Lipshutz's comments.  R. Shimon bar Yochai taught that non-Jewish cadavers do not convey ritual impurity to other items or people located in the same building with them (tumat ohel).  The biblical verse about cadavers conveying impurity in this manner speaks of "adam" (Bamidbar 19:14), a term that excludes gentiles.  The Rabbis, however, disagree with R. Shimon (Yevamot 61a).  

Why does R. Shimon think that the term "adam" excludes gentiles?  R. Zvi Hirsch Chajes offers the simplest explanation.   Obviously, non-Jews are people just as Jews are.  However, the Jewish legal code addresses the Jewish people, so it employs "adam" in a more restricted sense.  In the same way, a teacher might use the term "everyone" but only refer to the students in that class and not those in other classes or outside the school altogether.

Tosafot (s.v. ve-ain) point out a contradictory passage.  The gemara (Sanhedrin 59a) states that a gentile who studies Torah is like the High Priest because the verse refers to "ha-adam," a term that includes non-Jews.  Rabbenu Tam suggests that the term "ha-adam" includes gentiles, whereas the term "adam" excludes them.   These semantic issues will help us understand R. Lipshutz’s commentary.

Hillel said that one should love "ha-beriyot" (Avot 1:12).  R. Lipshutz suggests that the term "ha-beriyot" encompasses more than the term "adam"; it includes non-Jews along with Jews.   It also instructs the teacher to speak compassionately towards the weaker students in his class.  Hillel advises us to adopt a loving posture towards every person we encounter (Yakhin, Avot 1:46).

Shammai stated that a person should greet "et kol ha-adam" with a friendly countenance (Avot 1:15).  Basing himself on Rabbenu Tam’s distinction, R. Lipshutz suggests that Shammai employed the term "ha-adam" to include all - rich and poor, Jew and gentile (Yakhin, Avot 1:59).  According to R. Lipshutz, the long-term rivals, Shammai and Hillel, both agreed that non–Jews deserve friendly treatment, either love or at least a pleasant greeting.

Adopting Rabbenu Tam’s distinction may cause difficulty with a later mishna.  R. Akiva taught: "Beloved is man (adam), who was created in the image of G-d.   An extra love was made known to him that he was created in the image if G-d, as it says, 'He made man in the image of G-d' (Beresihit 9:6).”  Since R. Akiva says uses the phrase "adam," one might suggest that he speaks only about Jews.  Yet we normally assume that G-d created all of humanity in His image.  R. Lipshutz says that the correct text for this mishna should read "ha-adam," as gentiles are clearly included.  The next line of the same mishna says, "Beloved is Israel," indicating that the previous line referred to a different and broader group.  R. Akiva cites a verse spoken by G-d immediately after the flood, when He addresses humanity as a whole, and not Jews alone.

Yehoshua lowered the hanging bodies of the king of Ai and of the five Canaanite kings before nightfall (Yehoshua 8:29, 10:26).  The prohibition not to leave bodies hanging overnight stems from the fact that those bodies belong to beings created in the image of G-d; this example indicates that gentiles also bear the divine image (Yakhin, Avot 3:88).

R. Lipshutz's Boaz commentary on this mishna (Avot 3:1) includes one of the most remarkable rabbinic passages on this issues.  He questions R. Shimon’s statement that the term "adam" excludes gentiles: could R. Shimon possibly think that gentiles are comparable to animals? The Jewish people's status as a "treasure among the nations" (Shemot 19:5) would be meaningless if the other nations did not have significant worth.  Furthermore, animals do not receive reward and punishment, but pious gentiles enter the world–to-come (Sanhedrin 105a).  Obviously, R. Shimon would not equate gentiles with animals.

Paraphrase does not do justice to the following section, so I will translate an extended section of R. Lipshutz's commentary.

Even without the holy words of our sages who told us this [i.e., that pious gentiles merit olam ha-ba], we would know this from our intellect because “G-d is just in all His ways and benevolent in all His deeds.”   We see that many pious gentiles recognize the Creator, believe in the divinity of Scripture, act compassionately toward Israel, and some have done great things for entire world.  The pious [Edward] Jenner invented the vaccine that saves tens of thousands of people from disease [namely, smallpox], death and disability.  [Sir Francis] Drake brought the potato to Europe, which has prevented famine on several occasions.   [Johannes] Guttenberg invented the printing press.

Some of them never received their reward in this world, like the pious [Johannes] Reuchlin who risked his life to prevent the burning of the Talmud, which had been commanded by Emperor Maximilian in 1509 due to the incitement of the apostate [Johann] Pfefferkorn, who made an evil accord with the priests.  Reuchlin exerted every effort to oppose this and convinced the Emperor to retract this decree.  Due to this, his enemies the priests pursued him and made his life bitter until he died under pressure with a broken heart.  

Could you imagine that these great deeds will not be rewarded in olam ha-ba?  G-d does not withhold the reward of any creature.  Even if you say that these pious ones who keep the seven Noachide commandments would not have the status of a ger toshav (resident alien) because they never made a formal acceptance before a court or because we do not accept gerei toshav in our day, since they do not act like Esau, they have a portion in olam ha-ba.

R. Lipshutz's sense of divine justice emerges quite powerfully from this selection.  Decent people who did great things for humanity surely receive eternal reward.  It is inconceivable that technicalities regarding the formal acceptance of resident aliens could hold back such reward from the deserving.

His universalistic orientation also emerges clearly.  There are gentiles of outstanding character and achievement, and there is no reason to deny this truth.  Note further that the good deeds listed extend far beyond being kind to the Jewish community; saving gentiles from disease or famine also commands great respect.  This, too, reflects a more universalistic orientation.

The question regarding R. Shimon's statement thus remains in effect.  R. Lipshutz explains that Jews and gentiles each have an advantage.  Israel's advantage is the unique divine revelation bestowed upon them.  Human intellect can achieve great things, but it can not match the supernal wisdom of the Torah.  Conversely, gentile achievements in ethics and religion are purely the products of their own free choices and their own efforts.

This distinction mirrors the difference between the first man and subsequent generations.  Human beings enter the world as little babies who need to struggle to learn new skills.  In contrast, Adam was created as a fully formed adult.  Thus, the term "adam" refers to those whom G-d raised up to a higher level; this is why R. Shimon said that it only encompasses Jews, the beneficiaries of revelation.  "Ha-adam" cannot be talking about a particular person, because we do not employ the definitive article when referring to a specific person.  This term has the broader meaning of humanity and, of course, it includes gentiles.

The above reveals R. Lipshutz's positive orientation towards the best of the non–Jewish world.  He reads R. Shimon’s statement in a way that does not insult that world.  More strikingly, he states that our great advantage of revelation carries with it implications beyond the advantages.  It implies that the gentiles deserve special credit for their accomplishments absent the supreme advantage of revelation.

Another mishna in Avot strengthens this point.  R. Elazar ben Azariah taught: "If there is no Torah, there is no decency" (Avot 3:17).  One could read this line as suggesting that decent behavior does not exist outside the community of observant Jews.  As we have already seen, R. Lipshutz contends that reality belies such a reading.  Here, too, he points out that there are pious and moral gentiles who do not observe the six hundred and thirteen commandments.  He argues that "Torah" in this mishna means belief in revelation, reward and punishment, and immortality.  Decent gentiles share these beliefs even if they do not put on tefillin or keep Shabbat.  In this sense, such people have Torah and can have moral decency (Yakhin, Avot 3:114).

Even the above formulation does not account for ethically sensitive secularists, and were R. Lipshutz still alive, we would have to ask him about this.  Leaving this question aside, we can identify further confirmation of his attitude towards the broader world, as two more sources outside of Avot provide more evidence about R. Lipshutz's worldview.

A Jew whose ox gores the ox of a gentile is exempt from paying damages (Bava Kama 4:3).  This leads to two ethical questions.  Why does a Jew have more financial responsibility when his ox damages the ox of another Jew?  Where is the fairness of the above ruling, given that we charge the gentile when his ox gores that belonging to the Jew?   R. Lipshutz argues that rational morality would not clearly obligate the ox’s owner for damages committed by his ox in any situation, as the causal relationship between the owner and the damages is weak (Yakhin, Bava Kama 4:16).  This reflects a common strategy to explain halakhic discrepancies between treatment of Jews and gentiles.  The Torah demands basic moral treatment for all, but commands that we go beyond the norm for fellow Jews.

Such an approach may explain why the prohibition of lending money with interest applies only to other Jews.  Interest is rationally defensible, as having money for a period of time truly is worth money, but the Torah demands that we go one step further for our brethren.   R. Lipshutz adopts a similar approach regarding responsibilities for damages cause by a person's animal.

Why are gentiles responsible for the damages caused by their animals?  R. Lipshutz echoes Rambam's explanation (Hilkhot Nizkei Mamon 8:5).  Since Torah law does not apply to them, they have no incentive to watch their animals; if we did not impose liability upon them, society would suffer (Yakhin, Bava Kama 4:17).  In other words, Jews must watch their animals whether or not they will be held liable if their ox gores a gentile ox.  This is not the case for gentiles, so Halakha makes them liable.

In the Boaz section of the commentary (Boaz, Bava Kama 4:1), R. Lipshutz emphasizes the prohibition of theft from a non–Jew and of retaining money mistakenly given to us by a gentile.  He cites the Be'er ha-Golah of R. Moshe Rivkes (Choshen Mishpat 348) that no good comes from those who take advantage of the monetary mistakes of gentiles.  On the contrary, those who return mistaken money sanctify the name of G-d and will find greater business success as well.  R. Lipshutz adds that the two hundred years between R. Rivkes and himself have only strengthened that point.  Our "brethren among the nations" accept monotheism, recognize the sanctity of scripture, observe the Noachide laws, protect Jews, and support the Jewish poor. How can we behave towards them in an ungrateful fashion?  R. Lipshutz appreciates the benefits that modernity bestowed upon the Jews and contends that these benefits demand more scrupulous honesty in our business transactions with the broader world.

A mishna in Sanhedrin (10:1) famously states that all Jews have a portion in the world–to–come, with a handful of exceptions.  What about gentiles?  The Rambam rules that the pious among the nations also achieve this exalted state (Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Teshuva 3:5). In theory, this entry might be restricted to a very small group.  R. Lipshutz infers, however, from the mishna's specific exclusion of Bilaam that even the average among the gentiles makes it to olam ha-ba.  The gemara (Sanhedrin 105a) utilized the exclusion of Bilaam to infer that some non –Jews make it.  R. Lipshutz takes this further and contends that a significant portion of them make it (Yakhin, Sanhedrin 10:2).

Interestingly, in the same commentary R. Lipschutz goes on to posit an inherent difference between Jew and gentile.  Wicked gentiles receive their punishment and are destined to extinction.  Jews who have committed serious crimes also receive punishments, but their upper soul remains and returns to the proximity of G-d.  Apparently, a rabbinic thinker can believe in some intrinsic difference between Jew and gentile, and yet adopt a positive orientation towards the non–Jewish world.  R. Avraham Yitzchak ha-Kohen Kook represents another example of this phenomenon, although the degree of difference between peoples is far more pronounced in his thought than in that of R. Lipshutz.

The growing rights that emancipation granted Jews probably influenced R. Lipshutz's thought.  While anti– Semitism certainly lived on well into the nineteenth century, gratitude for decent treatment afforded by gentiles is morally obligatory.  As mentioned in earlier lectures, R. Lipshutz saw value in secular studies, another point related to one's orientation towards non–Jews.   If you view the non–Jewish world as decent, you are more likely to be interested in their ideas.  Conversely, if you find their ideas profound, you are more likely to see the people themselves as decent.   R. Lipshutz represents a powerful voice in our tradition for recognizing the decency in gentile society and the important ideas in their intellectual world.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2009, 09:14:53 PM »
If all Jews were like Mo and Muman, I don't think I'd want to be part of JTF. Sometimes I think about the brave Christians who hid Jews during the Holocaust, sometimes losing their lives over it, and now I read about how Mo wouldn't do it for a Christian because it might be against halacha.

Mo do you think of us as animals? Someone else on this board said Gentiles were just physical animals and didn't have a soul.

Everybody has a soul. Hashem breathed into man. That breath is a soul. Don't blame me for false information.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2009, 09:21:36 PM »
I will lock this thread as AH and Mord suggested...

As I said before, there is much room for misunderstanding here...

Thank you
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18268
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2009, 09:32:53 PM »
No I have one more post to make in this topic before it gets locked. Muman or Mo, you two are not my enemies int he sense of Muslim terrorists or other truly evil people. If your lives were in danger, I would help you. I don't hate either of you. It's just hard to be around people who constantly say things that seem meant to provoke.

Offline Mishmaat

  • Global Moderator
  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2610
  • !עם ישראל חי
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2009, 09:56:34 PM »
"You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22 NKJV).

There's a theological basis for why a Christian would care about Jews and, by extension, Israel. From Genesis to Revelation, it's in their Bible.

Now, as is the traditional Jewish custom, I'll answer this question with a question: How is this relevant to our cause?

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Why do Christians care about Jews?
« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2009, 10:43:32 PM »
You guys,

I just want to step in and defend Mo2388 here.  I don't think he meant any disrespect by asking what he did initially.  I write this because I've never had a problem with any of his previous posts. 

With the exception of some of the New York JTF people, many of us have never met each other face to face.  So the only thing we have to go by is whatever is typed on this board.  On the other hand, when you're speaking with someone in person, their facial expression, their tone of voice and their body language are truer indications of where they're coming from. 

Now some of you took offense when he posted that he's only involved in religious Jewish organizations.  But for the wonderful Christians here, I wouldn't take it personally.  As a group, we Jews tend to worry A LOT!  It's the same with lots of individual Jews as well.  We worry about causing anti-semitism, assimilation, and getting blamed when things go wrong. 

For example, I publish (or used to publish, since I haven't updated the content in a while) two blogs under pseudonyms.  My family regularly warns me against it, saying that as a Jew, I'm playing with fire. 

Also, one of my brothers in law believes that Jews in America shouldn't vote.  (Now I know that Chaim would say they shouldn't be in America in the first place.)  He believes that if a certain candidate were to become President without getting any, or very little of the Jewish vote, it would lead him to resent all American Jews.  Likewise, if a candidate lost a presidential election with very little or no Jewish votes, it would also cause resentment of Jews. 

Anyway, I don't mean to ramble on here.  I just want to give you some insight into how Jews think and why they keep to themselves.  It has nothing to do with hating gentiles. 

So going forward, let's focus on the things we have in common, rather than how we differ.  OK? 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 11:38:26 PM by Lisa »