Author Topic: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?  (Read 2538 times)

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Offline The One and Only Mo

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What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« on: December 01, 2009, 01:17:18 AM »
What do you guys think of his work and him as a person?

Offline muman613

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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sentinel For Truth

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 04:36:57 AM »
Greatest author of English literature of all time.  The standard to which all others are compared.  Like Bach was to music, Einstein to physics, Shakespeare was to literature. 

Offline pennyjangle

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 09:43:12 AM »
........ Wherefore art thou Romeo....... I do beseech you, give him leave to go.... yea, I like him.
Hasta La Vista Baby!

Offline AsheDina

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 10:00:37 AM »
I played Katerina in Taming of the Shrew.  Very hard to do W.S.
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 10:05:02 AM »
eh

Offline muman613

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 10:38:35 AM »
Everyone is aware that Shakespeare wrote an anti-semitic play called "The Merchant of Venice" with its dispicable Jewish stereotype character named Shylock? Don't you?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Cato

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 01:08:51 PM »
Everyone is aware that Shakespeare wrote an anti-semitic play called "The Merchant of Venice" with its dispicable Jewish stereotype character named Shylock? Don't you?
With his Seven Ages of Man, and just about everything else he wrote, Shakespeare showed himself to have an extraordinary understanding of the human condition which has never since been equalled. This is not to be taken lightly. Certainly he included minor references to anti-semitism - he was not necessarily making a personal statement of support, but was accurately reflecting the opinion of the times. Actually he was equally deprecating eg. of Turks. If you would prefer to join the camp of the Governor of California ("I don't like his ones..") then that is your decision, but to imply that admirers of Shakespeare are somehow fundamentally at fault is an interesting position. Personally I accept that antisemitism exists, but I do not understand the reasons for it, and certainly do not sympathise with it.

Offline muman613

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 02:28:33 PM »
Everyone is aware that Shakespeare wrote an anti-semitic play called "The Merchant of Venice" with its dispicable Jewish stereotype character named Shylock? Don't you?
With his Seven Ages of Man, and just about everything else he wrote, Shakespeare showed himself to have an extraordinary understanding of the human condition which has never since been equalled. This is not to be taken lightly. Certainly he included minor references to anti-semitism - he was not necessarily making a personal statement of support, but was accurately reflecting the opinion of the times. Actually he was equally deprecating eg. of Turks. If you would prefer to join the camp of the Governor of California ("I don't like his ones..") then that is your decision, but to imply that admirers of Shakespeare are somehow fundamentally at fault is an interesting position. Personally I accept that antisemitism exists, but I do not understand the reasons for it, and certainly do not sympathise with it.

I am not impugning any fan of Shakespeare, I am just enlightening those who don't know about Merchant of Venice to consider it... I have read sites, and I think the link I provided in my first post in this topic, which claim as you do that he was simply discussing antisemitism because it was popular at the time...

http://www.jewishmag.com/134mag/shakespeare_shylock/shakespeare_shylock.htm
Quote
A Shake-Up of Shakespeare's Shylock

By Edmund Jonah

Not too long ago, television screened a documentary on "Shylock" that was interesting, not so much for showing Shakespeare's intention when he created the character but more for the range of different attitudes towards him. No one seemed to agree, not even on the way Shylock looked! Orson Welles saw him as rather scruffy, with the black garments of the European Hassid, scraggly beard and tangled hair topped with a funny black hat. When the actor Charles Macklin, himself violent, having killed another thespian in a duel, played him as a ferocious devil figure, Alexander Pope maintained Shylock was portrayed the way Shakespeare wrote him.

At the other extreme was Dr. Jonathan Miller's vision in the person of Laurence Olivier: a very well dressed, opulent, modern integrated Jew, very much the businessman and a far cry from the slimy character with the hooked nose and evil leer of anti-Semitic literature and posters. Miller tried to divest the character of the stereotype Jew devil, the dirty, filthy pig suckler and eater of pig excrement, the foul polluter of the holy Christian world, so he made him a gentleman no different from the Christians around him. However, he had a hard time with Shakespeare's text. He believed Shakespeare made him only momentarily human but then reverted to the stereotype. Miller felt the line: "I hate him because he is a Christian," too much perpetuated the caricature of the Jew, so he cut it out.

What exactly was Shakespeare's intent?

"The Merchant of Venice" is called Shakespeare's anti-Semitic play - and with good reason. It has a Jewish villain who gets his comeuppance at the hands of Christians, which gave Will's audiences something to cheer about. Most Jews hate the play and wish it were not in Shakespeare's body of work. Some even protest its presentation. Anyone who sits through a traditional performance has every reason to believe that Shakespeare must have been a bigot. But was he? Let us take a closer look at the play, to get some new insights into it and the man who wrote it.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 02:39:08 PM »
I don't see how he couldn't make a play like that and be an anti-Semite.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 03:01:05 PM »
I don't see how he couldn't make a play like that and be an anti-Semite.
I don't quite understand this

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 03:09:46 PM »
How can you make an anti-Semitic play or movie without being an anti-Semite yourself?

Offline Zelhar

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 03:18:45 PM »
How can you make an anti-Semitic play or movie without being an anti-Semite yourself?
Well he certainly had prejudice toward Jews, but I don't know if he had burning hatred for us.

Offline AsheDina

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 03:25:34 PM »
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, when you are about 22 yrs old, these type things, dont interest you.  Is that ok with everyone? Is it ok, that I, too, at once was a dumb kid? Is that OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK?
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Moshe92

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 04:38:11 PM »
I'm reading Hamlet right now in English class. I don't have any opinion on him as a person, but he was obviously a great writer.

Offline t_h_j

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 04:44:44 PM »
shylock had one of Shakespeare's best monologues:

Quote
Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you p r i c k us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 04:47:33 PM »
Hmmm, should I be surprised that the Tamil troll is promoting a vicious anti-Semitic parody of a Jew?

Offline t_h_j

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 04:48:31 PM »
Hmmm, should I be surprised that the Tamil troll is promoting a vicious anti-Semitic parody of a Jew?

whats vicious and anti semitic about what i posted?

Offline muman613

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 05:50:07 PM »
I agree with t_h_j that Shylocks monologue must be one of the most memorable of Shakespeares prose... I dont think that that monologue is antisemitic, it just states that Jews are human like the rest of the world...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 05:53:10 PM »
This section discusses antisemitism in Merchant of Venice....


http://www.jewishmag.com/134mag/shakespeare_shylock/shakespeare_shylock.htm

All this is amazing because Shakespeare, most likely, never met a Jew. They had been banished from England and very few, mainly converts to Christianity, remained in the country. In the Middle Ages, Jew baiting was popular. It was enough to say a character was a Jew to accept him as the embodiment of evil. To this day, the word 'Jew' upon the stage has great emotional impact. Used to such great effect in the play "Cabaret," that those who have seen it performed will never forget how much of an impact it had.

In Shakespeare's days, literally thousands of these virulent anti-Jew plays were written, so lacking in worth that virtually only two survived: Marlowe's "The Jew of Malta," and "The Merchant of Venice," acknowledged as being by far the superior. Shakespeare had his eye on the box-office and knew a good thing when he saw it. Anti-Semitism pulled in the crowds and he would have been insane not to have used it. But... this was Shakespeare, a man who could not write a worthless play - lacking art, lacking depth. We are discussing mankind's most precious literary gem, one who soars above his fellow humans even today and one who was not prepared to let his audience off easily.

That is not to say Shakespeare did not pander to the prejudices of his audiences. However, quite the reverse of Jonathan Miller's view, whenever Shylock enters the stage he is the epitome of the stereotyped Jew, evil for evil's own sake. This was merely to satisfy the demands of his audience, particularly the groundlings, who revelled in hissing and cat-calling the actor. Until the 19th century - reflecting the low comedy part of Judas in Biblical drama - Shylock was portrayed in a red wig, red beard and huge bulbous nose. The English public became conditioned to this clownish figure of towering wickedness.

But, that, clearly, was not Shakespeare's intention for, as each of Shylock's scenes develops, a subtle change occurs that makes the audience uncomfortable. When they laugh, the laugh's on them. Shakespeare was a playwright of extraordinary skills. He was not content to let his Jew remain a one-dimensional symbol of evil. For the very first time, a writer gives the Jew a motive for his hate. To quote Harry Golden from "Only in America:" – "Shakespeare was the first writer in seven hundred years who gave the Jew a 'motive.' Why did he need to give the Jew a motive? Certainly, his audience did not expect it. For centuries they had been brought up on the stereotype, 'this is evil because it's evil' and here Shakespeare comes along and goes to so much 'unnecessary' trouble giving Shylock a motive. At last! A motive!" Not only that. Shakespeare gives Shylock emotions and sensitivity of touching humanity. The Jew could feel pain and anguish, as when he bemoans the loss of the ring his deceased wife gave him even before they were married. The audience is busy laughing at the [censored] Shylock's daughter, Jessica has made of her father by robbing him, and at the Jew's hysterical outburst at losing so much at the hands of his own flesh and blood, when Tubal says: "One of them showed me a ring that he had of your daughter for a monkey."

Shylock, in tears, in rage, in primordial pain, cries out.... "Out upon her! Thou torturest me, Tubal. It was my turquoise. I had it of Leah when I was a bachelor. I would not have given it for a wilderness of monkeys."

While the audience thinks Shylock has been hit hardest because his daughter robbed him of money and jewels, he shows us a Jew most pained over a turquoise ring, a semi-precious stone that held little more than sentimental value.

Now since racism is the renunciation of logic Shakespeare uses it to play with his Christian audiences. He knew his patrons fed upon anti-Semitism so he makes them renounce all logic and teases them with insults they do not feel. Shylock knows what no one could possibly know, that not one of the merchant's ships due in 30 days, will come through from different parts of the world, so he gives Antonio 90 days credit with impunity. Then the merchant himself, descending to duplicity and deceit and throwing good money after bad, knows Bassanio will be successful, and lends his friend more money on top of what he is owed, to woo a rich heiress. The audience must accept as good, a man who, on approaching the Jew for the 3000 ducats, treats a fellow human thus:
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 06:04:28 PM »
Just about every famous artist/author/musician had something that was flawed about them. Shakespeare was a genius and I think you have to view his writings in the context of the time in which they were written. I was really fond of Macbeth when I read it in high school.

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 08:16:39 PM »
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, when you are about 22 yrs old, these type things, dont interest you.  Is that ok with everyone? Is it ok, that I, too, at once was a dumb kid? Is that OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK?
Come again?

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 02:52:42 AM »
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, when you are about 22 yrs old, these type things, dont interest you.  Is that ok with everyone? Is it ok, that I, too, at once was a dumb kid? Is that OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK?
Come again?
Still waiting for an explanation..... :disease: :disease: :disease: :disease: :disease:

Offline Cato

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 01:38:03 PM »
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, when you are about 22 yrs old, these type things, dont interest you.  Is that ok with everyone? Is it ok, that I, too, at once was a dumb kid? Is that OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK?
Come again?
Still waiting for an explanation..... :disease: :disease: :disease: :disease: :disease:
I think that t_h_j is waiting for one too.

Offline patches

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Re: What's your opinion of Shakespeare?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 03:59:29 PM »
I thought Al Pacino played the Shylock really well in the movie version of The Merchant of Venice. I never read or saw the play performed, but the movie was pretty good.